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Horseplayersbet.com
09-29-2009, 06:26 PM
I am starting a new thread for gems about the state of the game (horseplayer related of course) found on the internet:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Zasts-TrackWords/comments/2009-09-28the-day-of-atonement-and-tomorrow/

Horseracing is still marketed as if it has a monopoly on legal gambling,
where the need for a cohesive voice and long term strategic planning was not
required to be successful. A racetrack would be built and people would come
and bet!

The industry has generally been run by Horsemen who have viewed wagering as a necessary evil. They have little understanding of the gambling component
and thus little understanding for their current and potential customers. In
some cases racetrack board members are prohibited from wagering.
Those who remain in the Horseplayer choir believe that horserace wagering
offers unique components that make it the most exciting, exhilarating and
challenging form of gambling. The industry will continue to decline until
racetrack operators can identify and embrace their customer, the
HORSEPLAYER, and conclude that Horseracing must be marketed as a 'GAME
ABOUT GAMBLING' and not a Sport of Kings!

Horseracing’s Day of Atonement is long overdue.....
EP

rwwupl
09-29-2009, 06:49 PM
I am starting a new thread for gems about the state of the game (horseplayer related of course) found on the internet:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Zasts-TrackWords/comments/2009-09-28the-day-of-atonement-and-tomorrow/

Horseracing is still marketed as if it has a monopoly on legal gambling,
where the need for a cohesive voice and long term strategic planning was not
required to be successful. A racetrack would be built and people would come
and bet!

The industry has generally been run by Horsemen who have viewed wagering as a necessary evil. They have little understanding of the gambling component
and thus little understanding for their current and potential customers. In
some cases racetrack board members are prohibited from wagering.
Those who remain in the Horseplayer choir believe that horserace wagering
offers unique components that make it the most exciting, exhilarating and
challenging form of gambling. The industry will continue to decline until
racetrack operators can identify and embrace their customer, the
HORSEPLAYER, and conclude that Horseracing must be marketed as a 'GAME
ABOUT GAMBLING' and not a Sport of Kings!

Horseracing’s Day of Atonement is long overdue.....
EP


Yep, Thats it :ThmbUp:

DeanT
09-29-2009, 09:37 PM
A good comment today on the horseplayer blog from "Quarter Pole"

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/09/marketing-summit-you-can-beat-race-but.html?showComment=1254267433361#c92225628967883 05844


That was a nice piece and I enjoyed reading it.

Horseracing needn't look any further than the internet where online poker has taken young adults from all over the world by storm.

What, might you ask, does poker have over horseracing? Certainly not excitement (grinding poker can be quite boring). Certainly not intellectual challenge (although poker is quite close!). And certainly not the chance to make a quick score (to make a quick score (1K+), you might have play for HOURS online in a single tourney).

Nope, none of the above! What horseracing lacks is at the heart of fundamental ecomonics: THE LACK OF A PERCEPTION THAT IT IS PROFITABLE!

Why do the young kids play poker? Because they perceive that if they work hard enough at it, they will eventually become +EV long term. NO SUCH NOTION exists with horse racing.

Consider that you can find online training sites for poker ad nauseum. Just do a quick Google (or in deference to your contributor, a Yahoo! search) for "online poker training" and you will find some outstanding training sites for relatively little money that can have you near-profitable in a couple of months of hard study. NOTHING like this exists for horseracing; instead all you get is people peddling lousy tips, speed figures, and for the most part, useless or superfluous information.

In addition, you can go to NUMEROUS sites online that list DOZENS of winning "poker pros" whose results are documented and posted. I challenge you to find and list FIVE "horseracing" pros that are profitable and whose names are public. Oh, these five may exist, but no one knows of them, and more importantly, because no one knows of them, they cannot help the sport attract what it needs: interest from young people that think or believe they can beat the game in the long run.

The solution to racing's woes is obvious: make people believe that they can win money long term by betting horses. NOTHING MORE and NOTHING LESS. If this was done, the issues of admission, the cost of a DRF, the odds changing after the bell, the drugs, the "super-trainers", field size, and all other "issues" would magically disappear. Easier said than done,isn't it?

And with that, sir, I proclaim the eventual slow death of racing as the cancer of takeout metastasizes and brings it to its Hospice in the caverns of Belmont, Hollywood Park, and Churchill Downs.

Good luck at the windows and thank you for your time.

Imriledup
09-29-2009, 09:43 PM
I am starting a new thread for gems about the state of the game (horseplayer related of course) found on the internet:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Zasts-TrackWords/comments/2009-09-28the-day-of-atonement-and-tomorrow/

Horseracing is still marketed as if it has a monopoly on legal gambling,
where the need for a cohesive voice and long term strategic planning was not
required to be successful. A racetrack would be built and people would come
and bet!

The industry has generally been run by Horsemen who have viewed wagering as a necessary evil. They have little understanding of the gambling component
and thus little understanding for their current and potential customers. In
some cases racetrack board members are prohibited from wagering.
Those who remain in the Horseplayer choir believe that horserace wagering
offers unique components that make it the most exciting, exhilarating and
challenging form of gambling. The industry will continue to decline until
racetrack operators can identify and embrace their customer, the
HORSEPLAYER, and conclude that Horseracing must be marketed as a 'GAME
ABOUT GAMBLING' and not a Sport of Kings!

Horseracing’s Day of Atonement is long overdue.....
EP

Betting NFL games is also exciting, exhilirating and challenging but the bookies and Las Vegas dont' raise the Vigorish to pay the salaries of the players. Horse race bettors are paying the salaries of the Trainers, Riders and other participants who put on the show. That's the problem.

cj
09-29-2009, 09:48 PM
The industry still seems to think racing is entertainment and that customers don't mind paying for them to put on the show. You would think the empty grandstands might give them an inkling it doesn't work any longer.

Memo to race track executives...it is gambling. People don't want to play a game with little chance for success in the year 2009. I was thinking about this today after watching the first from Suffolk and two from Philly. If I were a new fan and today was my first day at the track, how excited would I be seeing three heavy favorites win. For the fee of about 20%, you get the chance to double your money! Hooray for racing. There are too many pools and too many tracks, and takeout is too high.

People play the lottery with a very high takeout, but at least they have the chance, very small, to change their life with a very small investment. Racing offers none of this except a couple of days a year.

Do we need place and show betting? Do we need exactas, trifectas, and superfectas on nearly every race? P3s, P4s, and daily doubles galore? Imagine a poker game where 10 guys show up, and you break it down into 5 two man games...great fun, eh?

Do we need racing at Penn National, Mountaineer and Charles Town all on the same night at the same time? Do we need racing at Belmont, the Meadowlands, Philly Park, and Delaware too?

There is so much wrong I could go on for days. But until the things above are fixed, nothing is going to change.

Imriledup
09-29-2009, 09:55 PM
A good comment today on the horseplayer blog from "Quarter Pole"

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/09/marketing-summit-you-can-beat-race-but.html?showComment=1254267433361#c92225628967883 05844


That was a nice piece and I enjoyed reading it.

Horseracing needn't look any further than the internet where online poker has taken young adults from all over the world by storm.

What, might you ask, does poker have over horseracing? Certainly not excitement (grinding poker can be quite boring). Certainly not intellectual challenge (although poker is quite close!). And certainly not the chance to make a quick score (to make a quick score (1K+), you might have play for HOURS online in a single tourney).

Nope, none of the above! What horseracing lacks is at the heart of fundamental ecomonics: THE LACK OF A PERCEPTION THAT IT IS PROFITABLE!

Why do the young kids play poker? Because they perceive that if they work hard enough at it, they will eventually become +EV long term. NO SUCH NOTION exists with horse racing.

Consider that you can find online training sites for poker ad nauseum. Just do a quick Google (or in deference to your contributor, a Yahoo! search) for "online poker training" and you will find some outstanding training sites for relatively little money that can have you near-profitable in a couple of months of hard study. NOTHING like this exists for horseracing; instead all you get is people peddling lousy tips, speed figures, and for the most part, useless or superfluous information.

In addition, you can go to NUMEROUS sites online that list DOZENS of winning "poker pros" whose results are documented and posted. I challenge you to find and list FIVE "horseracing" pros that are profitable and whose names are public. Oh, these five may exist, but no one knows of them, and more importantly, because no one knows of them, they cannot help the sport attract what it needs: interest from young people that think or believe they can beat the game in the long run.

The solution to racing's woes is obvious: make people believe that they can win money long term by betting horses. NOTHING MORE and NOTHING LESS. If this was done, the issues of admission, the cost of a DRF, the odds changing after the bell, the drugs, the "super-trainers", field size, and all other "issues" would magically disappear. Easier said than done,isn't it?

And with that, sir, I proclaim the eventual slow death of racing as the cancer of takeout metastasizes and brings it to its Hospice in the caverns of Belmont, Hollywood Park, and Churchill Downs.

Good luck at the windows and thank you for your time.

Great post. Who IS the Phil Hellmuth and Phil Ivey of horse racing? Who's the really cool guy with the sunglasses who hits all the pick 6s and is driving around in a new Mercedes on horse race winnings?

Who's the professional gambler who wants to come on the TVG set and talk about how much money he makes per year just betting the races?

Its like racing is doing a great job of hiding its winning players. They may as well be in the witness protection pgm, no one really knows who they are.

Even winning tournament players like the guy from Tennessee who wins all the Vegas contests, why haven't we seen someone like this interviewed on TVG to talk about how he has made good money in this game?

I watch TVG, HRTV and almost all racing programs on tv and listen to many racing programs on radio i've never really seen or heard of anyone who came on and talked about winning?

If you look at the results from racing in the United States over the last few decades you will find HUNDREDS and even THOUSANDS of 6 figure Pick 6, Superfecta, Pentafecta, etc payoffs. You'll see dozens and dozens of life changing payoffs and yet the only time we hear about who is hitting these bets is when a guy hits a Breeders Cup pick 6 on an 8 dollar ticket. Who's winning these life changing payouts? I can't imagine that there are people who hit these large exotic bets who don't want to come on and talk about this stuff.

I guess the problem is that even if we bring on the little old lady from Paso Robles to talk about her 500k pick 6 score, the only people who are seeing her are already racing fans. Non fans don't watch TVG, a lady like this would have to go on the Today show and tell Matt Lauer how horse racing changed her life.

Racing doing a bad job at marketing players who've had life changers.

proximity
09-29-2009, 10:17 PM
What, might you ask, does poker have over horseracing? .

great post dean t!!

one more major thing i will add that poker has over racing though is that you can choose your opponents.

in racing you're potentially going against the best on every "hand."

possibly a "racing poker" type of game could be developed where cards representing the numbers of the horses in a race would be dealt and players could then bet on their hands?? super hi five box, superfecta box, triple box, exacta box, win, place, show.... would be the order of winning hands!!

Imriledup
09-29-2009, 10:18 PM
great post dean t!!

one more major thing i will add that poker has over racing though is that you can choose your opponents.

in racing you're potentially going against the best on every "hand."

possibly a "racing poker" type of game could be developed where cards representing the numbers of the horses in a race would be dealt and players could then bet on their hands?? super hi five box, superfecta box, triple box, exacta box, win, place, show.... would be the order of winning hands!!

That's an awesome point i never thought of, you can choose your competition in Poker.

proximity
09-29-2009, 10:20 PM
Do we need racing at Penn National, Mountaineer and Charles Town all on the same night at the same time? Do we need racing at Belmont, the Meadowlands, Philly Park, and Delaware too?

.

yes, it's called the law of large numbers.

imagine a poker game where you had all night to play, but only ten hands were going to be dealt... great fun, eh?

Horseplayersbet.com
09-29-2009, 10:26 PM
The problem with identifying the winners, and I mean long term winners, not the odd lucky person who hit a huge pick 6, is that almost all of them are most likely getting rebates. And I believe racing doesn't want to advertise this aspect of the game.

Imriledup
09-29-2009, 10:45 PM
The problem with identifying the winners, and I mean long term winners, not the odd lucky person who hit a huge pick 6, is that almost all of them are most likely getting rebates. And I believe racing doesn't want to advertise this aspect of the game.

interesting.

chickenhead
09-29-2009, 10:54 PM
a bit off the topic, but what the hell, time for a little rant.

I was thinking this morning about how the industry likes to think of racing as a spectator sport, or wish it was. I was thinking about the dress codes all the major sports have...the athletes are dressed to the nines pre and post game. And I was thinking about some of the absolute slobs I have seen roaming around inside the paddocks at various tracks.

Note to racing: How about you institute a dress code for the participants in this spectator sport? Does some dude wearing cut-offs and a stained Simpsons T-Shirt (as witnessed by me at Golden Gate) really jive with this high end spectator sport you think you're selling?

Hows about you go pry the dress code sign off the Turf Club door -- and stick it on the pathway into the paddock. And make all the grooms wear the same thing, have them put on solid white coveralls. The horse might look a little more majestic if they were all being walked around by guys in solid white coveralls, rather than whatever garish monstrosity they found wadded up on the floor when they rolled out of bed that morning.

end rant.

DeanT
09-29-2009, 11:07 PM
I was thinking about some of the absolute slobs I have seen roaming around inside the paddocks at various tracks.


I wasn't looking particularly good that day I admit.

Horseplayersbet.com
09-29-2009, 11:19 PM
a bit off the topic, but what the hell, time for a little rant.

I was thinking this morning about how the industry likes to think of racing as a spectator sport, or wish it was. I was thinking about the dress codes all the major sports have...the athletes are dressed to the nines pre and post game. And I was thinking about some of the absolute slobs I have seen roaming around inside the paddocks at various tracks.

Note to racing: How about you institute a dress code for the participants in this spectator sport? Does some dude wearing cut-offs and a stained Simpsons T-Shirt (as witnessed by me at Golden Gate) really jive with this high end spectator sport you think you're selling?

Hows about you go pry the dress code sign off the Turf Club door -- and stick it on the pathway into the paddock. And make all the grooms wear the same thing, have them put on solid white coveralls. The horse might look a little more majestic if they were all being walked around by guys in solid white coveralls, rather than whatever garish monstrosity they found wadded up on the floor when they rolled out of bed that morning.

end rant.
I'm not into dress codes. They rub me the wrong way. I could live with it if all grooms had to wear the same Simpsons shirt every day though.

chickenhead
09-29-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm just saying, we already know how delusional racing can be. But if they want to invest in all the pomp and pageantry -- they should spend a minute or two thinking about it. A $4K claimer looks exactly the same as Curlin or Secretariat to most people -- it's the people standing around the horse that clue you in that what you're watching ain't exactly "big time".

At some places it's like a Walmart parking lot, with horses.

cj
09-29-2009, 11:41 PM
yes, it's called the law of large numbers.

imagine a poker game where you had all night to play, but only ten hands were going to be dealt... great fun, eh?

Well, it isn't working in my opinion. I didn't say they all have to go. But if you reduce the number of races, fields get bigger and more competitive.

The large numbers we need are pool size, not microscopic pools scattered all over the map offering little to no value to anyone but those raking in the takeout.

cj
09-29-2009, 11:42 PM
I wasn't looking particularly good that day I admit.

Well done.

Horseplayersbet.com
09-29-2009, 11:46 PM
Well, it isn't working in my opinion. I didn't say they all have to go. But if you reduce the number of races, fields get bigger and more competitive.

The large numbers we need are pool size, not microscopic pools scattered all over the map offering little to no value to anyone but those raking in the takeout.
I think we have enough horses and enough races and tracks, we just don't have enough gamblers :)

proximity
09-29-2009, 11:58 PM
Well, it isn't working in my opinion. I didn't say they all have to go. But if you reduce the number of races, fields get bigger and more competitive.
.

seems to me that the night tracks already seem to have big enough fields.

cleaning up the game (drugs) is what would make these fields more competitive and even encourage new blood to enter the ownership ranks.

great rebates are also available at most of these tracks. if people would rather bet 4 and 5 horse fields at hokey california polytracks though, that is their choice. nothing i can do about that.

BillW
09-30-2009, 12:02 AM
great post dean t!!

one more major thing i will add that poker has over racing though is that you can choose your opponents.


Betfair kinda figured that out :)

cj
09-30-2009, 12:18 AM
seems to me that the night tracks already seem to have big enough fields.

cleaning up the game (drugs) is what would make these fields more competitive and even encourage new blood to enter the ownership ranks.

great rebates are also available at most of these tracks. if people would rather bet 4 and 5 horse fields at hokey california polytracks though, that is their choice. nothing i can do about that.

The tracks I mentioned were not the point. I said it doesn't matter which ones close or cut back on days, they were just examples of too much product.

I have no problem with getting drugs out of racing, just not sure it will ever happen.

BillW
09-30-2009, 12:31 AM
I have no problem with getting drugs out of racing, just not sure it will ever happen.

Long way to go to get there. First step is to define what "Drugs in racing" means (What really are the list of banned substances). Then the threshold of each drug needs to be established. Then this needs to be accepted across all racing jurisdictions. Simply saying "all drugs" doesn't cut it.

proximity
09-30-2009, 12:55 AM
... I said it doesn't matter which ones close or cut back on days, .

for some reason i think it does seem to matter. these night tracks seem to be doing something right because they consistently seem to be getting the horses.

maybe i don't look at pha and del enough and their avg field sizes really are as big as pen and ct's?

sunday though i downloaded all of the dirt races for winners at both pha and ct. largest number of horses entered at pha:8. lowest number of horses entered at ct:9.

ct, pen, evangeline/delta.... big fields, big rebates available, convenient post times...... but no handle. for whatever reason, you're right..... it isn't working.

BillW
09-30-2009, 01:43 AM
I was just looking over the charts for today and noticed the payouts of this card at DEL:

1 $4.20
2 $3.40
3 $2.60
4 $2.60
5 $3.00
6 $4.80
7 $4.80
8 $2.80
9 $6.40
10 $3.40

Now there's an argument for cutting back if I ever saw one! What's the point :confused:

InsideThePylons-MW
09-30-2009, 02:28 AM
In addition, you can go to NUMEROUS sites online that list DOZENS of winning "poker pros" whose results are documented and posted. I challenge you to find and list FIVE "horseracing" pros that are profitable and whose names are public. Oh, these five may exist, but no one knows of them, and more importantly, because no one knows of them, they cannot help the sport attract what it needs: interest from young people that think or believe they can beat the game in the long run.

The solution to racing's woes is obvious: make people believe that they can win money long term by betting horses. NOTHING MORE and NOTHING LESS.


Great post. Who IS the Phil Hellmuth and Phil Ivey of horse racing? Who's the really cool guy with the sunglasses who hits all the pick 6s and is driving around in a new Mercedes on horse race winnings?

Who's the professional gambler who wants to come on the TVG set and talk about how much money he makes per year just betting the races?

Its like racing is doing a great job of hiding its winning players. They may as well be in the witness protection pgm, no one really knows who they are.

It was not too long ago when Chris Scherf went around to everybody involved in the industry saying that any winning professional player is "stealing" money from the tracks/horsemen (industry). Not one person he told this to ever called him nuts.

The General Manager of the track that I attended almost every race card since I was 13 years old......was their biggest bettor accounting for about 2.5% of total handle and 15% of on track handle....they knew I was crushing their product for years....told me that "it's a privilege we let you bet here"

The industry has been trained that anybody leaving the facility with profit in their pocket is bad for the industry.

Considering that Scherf and almost all of the people he trained, or were previously trained to think this way, are still in charge.....How the hell can the industry jump from winners are thieves to let's promote winners in hopes of possibly attracting more winners?

And why would a winning professional player that has contributed millions or tens of millions of dollars over his lifetime to purses/tracks through takeout or host fees while being called a thief for winning, want to go public for the good of the game when if you hooked up the people in charge of the game to a lie detector and asked them if he was stealing money from the industry, it would show that most in the industry still think he's a thief?

Imriledup
09-30-2009, 04:21 AM
It was not too long ago when Chris Scherf went around to everybody involved in the industry saying that any winning professional player is "stealing" money from the tracks/horsemen (industry). Not one person he told this to ever called him nuts.

The General Manager of the track that I attended almost every race card since I was 13 years old......was their biggest bettor accounting for about 2.5% of total handle and 15% of on track handle....they knew I was crushing their product for years....told me that "it's a privilege we let you bet here"

The industry has been trained that anybody leaving the facility with profit in their pocket is bad for the industry.

Considering that Scherf and almost all of the people he trained, or were previously trained to think this way, are still in charge.....How the hell can the industry jump from winners are thieves to let's promote winners in hopes of possibly attracting more winners?

And why would a winning professional player that has contributed millions or tens of millions of dollars over his lifetime to purses/tracks through takeout or host fees while being called a thief for winning, want to go public for the good of the game when if you hooked up the people in charge of the game to a lie detector and asked them if he was stealing money from the industry, it would show that most in the industry still think he's a thief?

Thats incredible, i never realized that people view winning players as theives.
You learn something new every day.

rrbauer
09-30-2009, 09:43 AM
one more major thing i will add that poker has over racing though is that you can choose your opponents.

in racing you're potentially going against the best on every "hand."



I have a friend who has played poker most of his adult life (he's in his 60's). He played for a living for a couple years in LV but LV was too hot in the summer for him to pursue his other passion: Golf. He "bottom fishes" playing in mid-level limit-games and lower-level tournaments. When I asked him once why he didn't play in larger-stakes limit games or the big tournaments he said that he was comfortable playing where he knew that he had an edge and could win practically every time that he sat down.

rrbauer
09-30-2009, 09:48 AM
I have no problem with getting drugs out of racing, just not sure it will ever happen.

I see in the news that New Jersey is considering banning steriods.

Horseplayersbet.com
09-30-2009, 09:53 AM
I have a friend who has played poker most of his adult life (he's in his 60's). He played for a living for a couple years in LV but LV was too hot in the summer for him to pursue his other passion: Golf. He "bottom fishes" playing in mid-level limit-games and lower-level tournaments. When I asked him once why he didn't play in larger-stakes limit games or the big tournaments he said that he was comfortable playing where he knew that he had an edge and could win practically every time that he sat down.
My mother plays online poker. She made good money at it up until a year ago because the good players have stayed on and the not so good players come and go (now she holds her own), but even though she was up thousands and would rather play $5 or $10 minimum games, she found that she lost in those games, but she constantly won in the $1 minimum game.
A big chunk of her winnings were thanks to rake backs (rebates), so even though she would rather bet more, she sticks to the small games because that is where she has an edge.

miesque
09-30-2009, 10:19 AM
I see in the news that New Jersey is considering banning steriods.

Now that was the story that got my attention that past few days, talk about dragging feet on an issue.

DeanT
09-30-2009, 04:33 PM
I was just looking over the charts for today and noticed the payouts of this card at DEL:

1 $4.20
2 $3.40
3 $2.60
4 $2.60
5 $3.00
6 $4.80
7 $4.80
8 $2.80
9 $6.40
10 $3.40

Now there's an argument for cutting back if I ever saw one! What's the point :confused:

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/09/prize-payouts.html

Canadian
09-30-2009, 06:52 PM
Everytime I have less then a buck in my PTC account I go to Delaware and bet the top 4 favorites in order with 10 cent supers. I grinded back up more then once that way.

Horseplayersbet.com
10-06-2009, 11:42 AM
From:
Dennis (10/01/2009 9:04 PM)
"Gambling of any kind involves price; that is odds. And; equally; integrity. Horse racing has severe problems in both areas. They refuse to admit it. They refuse to accept the path that must be taken to correct it. So, decade after decade, they have meetings and discussions that always lead to the same results.

Nothing is done. More events involving bobble head dolls, 50 cent hotdogs and $1 beer. The class of gambler attracted by this offering bets very little and does not return very often. They play, they do not think or invest. Your thinking pros and semi-pros always consider price.

The direct affect of take/breakage on pools is always smaller odds. Small odds means one of two things to your real player. Wagering only when you are provided with the rare case of value. Or wagering with an entity that provides a percentage of return that offsets playing lower odds due to take/breakage. Neither of which increases churn. Your $2 bettor could care less.

Consider that, with less take/NO BREAKAGE, odds increase which in turn increases perceived value opportunities which increases wagers. More opportunity equals more churn. I also believe this provides tracks/ADWs a chance to compete with the offshore’s rebates.

Experiments, and that is all they were, in this area have been isolated, short lived and hidden. If you are going to do this, make the numbers real, make everyone do it, and advertise the hell out if it well before starting it. I played seriously for more than 30 years and quit after the pic-6 scandal when only lip service was paid to correcting the ancient system that is racing’s wagering system.

My opinion, racing has to die before it will make any real attempts to adapt. They must choose survival or extinction. $2 bettors will not replace serious players. And your serious players are dieing or wagering somewhere else that allows them to survive as well. A poorly publicized trial at some cheap bottom claimer track for two weeks with only WPS wagers reduced 1 or 2 points will NOT prove anything but what the tracks want to believe now, that less take/no breakage will not increase churn. They have a death wish and it is coming true for them.

I would return to racing if I saw cheating truly punished rather than overlooked/encouraged, a modern flow established for wagering info that instantly updates all outlets as each wager is placed (think wall street) and my own areas, WPS reduced to 10% with no breakage. That is my opinion.

For now, I continue to play poker and a few handicapping contests where I figure to have an edge. I see no value in racing as it is today, for anyone, tracks included…"

Horseplayersbet.com
10-16-2009, 04:33 PM
Mr. Christiansen is spot on. Racing is beholden to the, frankly stupid, idea that customers bet to a fixed amount of stake (and wmcorrow seems stuck with that idea too). If that was true then sure, halving your margin halves your profit, but since when has that ever been true? I’ve got $100 to spend this month on the horses. If I have some early winners I just stake more. The bookie still gets $100 most months.

Look at the success stories in gambling, like Vegas casinos, Pokerstars or Betfair. They still take all your money, but they do it 3% at a time instead of 20+% each time. Is it because they’re generous? No of course not. They’re ruthless at taking your money off you, but they know the best way to do it is slowly but surely. On UK Racing Betfair bets to a lower margin than its 2 biggest rivals, Ladbrokes and William Hill, but it has a HIGHER ARPU. If you don’t understand why, then when there’s a debate about the future of Racing you should do the sport a favour and excuse yourself from the room.

Betfair and PokerStars turnover goes up every year because they’re selling the dream that you might win. It’s all about the customer’s experience. Racing, on the other hand, just looks at punters as its god-given source of cash.
-Tony
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/John-Pricci/comments/10162009-consultant-amount-of-money-taken-from-bettors-is-not-sustainable/

KM1234
10-16-2009, 04:57 PM
Has it occured to anyone that even if you lower takeout, clean up the drugs, and other actions that would make the game more appealing, the general populace in this country just doesn't want to bet on horses?

DeanT
10-16-2009, 05:07 PM
That once did occur to me, but I was convinced by other things. The general public hated trading stocks, hated options, hated forex and hated Nasdaq pink sheets. But that was years ago when trades were taxed at a huge commission rate and data was poorly disseminated.

Now with $5 trades, and fast execution, a mother in Iowa buys and sells a couple stocks between dropping her kids off and picking them up at day care because of a MACD signal that she is watching.

I once figured sports like election betting, women's handball, shotput and darts would not be things people would want to bet, but those are all being bet as we speak at betfair, at 4% take. If they can do it, I think horse racing can.

Only my opinion, but I think we can do better.

CBedo
10-16-2009, 06:52 PM
Now with $5 trades, and fast execution, a mother in Iowa buys and sells a couple stocks between dropping her kids off and picking them up at day care because of a MACD signal that she is watching. There is more divergence than convergence in the moving average indicators in racing! :lol:

Horseplayersbet.com
10-26-2009, 02:46 PM
"I was once a smoker but government taxes thankfully helped eliminate that vice. Horse racing is a vice for many people and I could see these people being cured by 25% WPS takeout; $7 a pack cured me of a my nicotine vice."

-Power Cap

magwell
10-26-2009, 03:11 PM
Has it occured to anyone that even if you lower takeout, clean up the drugs, and other actions that would make the game more appealing, the general populace in this country just doesn't want to bet on horses? I'm pretty sure if you lowered the take to 10 % on all bets more people would be playing, whether you cleaned up the game or not.

DeanT
10-30-2009, 11:45 PM
Wonderful to see racetrack management talk about things on insider trade websites that people like Bauer, Beyer, Wolff and others have been speaking of. It is not just horseplayers any more wanting to give lower take a chance to build the game again.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/are-racing-execs-ready-for-change.html

Some casinos have big red neon signs that boast about their 99-percent payback.

I then thought to myself, “Would anyone go to a casino if the advertised slot payoff was between 64-83 percent? Of course not! .....

I believe that just a tinge of the money [slots money] that has gone for higher purses could be used to put racing on a competitive field for the bettors.

And while some owners might object because their windfall might just be a tad less, their argument would be repelled quickly as their purses rebound to new highs on the strength of the new found betting dollars flowing into our sport.

The “New Deal” begins with the thought that racing would be well served to lower the take-out to roughly the same as slots. That would mean a 92 percent payback

Horseplayersbet.com
10-31-2009, 12:11 AM
Wonderful to see racetrack management talk about things on insider trade websites that people like Bauer, Beyer, Wolff and others have been speaking of. It is not just horseplayers any more wanting to give lower take a chance to build the game again.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/are-racing-execs-ready-for-change.html

Some casinos have big red neon signs that boast about their 99-percent payback.

I then thought to myself, “Would anyone go to a casino if the advertised slot payoff was between 64-83 percent? Of course not! .....

I believe that just a tinge of the money [slots money] that has gone for higher purses could be used to put racing on a competitive field for the bettors.

And while some owners might object because their windfall might just be a tad less, their argument would be repelled quickly as their purses rebound to new highs on the strength of the new found betting dollars flowing into our sport.

The “New Deal” begins with the thought that racing would be well served to lower the take-out to roughly the same as slots. That would mean a 92 percent payback

Gotta like it.
I wonder if he read the link I put up in another thread regarding slot takeouts:
http://americancasinoguide.com/SlotPayback/slotinfo.shtml

Forget that for a second. His argument is good, but he leaves out the real reason why the bottom line will go up. Horseplayers will last longer which means they will devote more time gambling on horses, which will inevitably draw in friends, family and/or coworkers to the game as well. At least it ups the chance that they will get exposed to horse racing.

The reason slots are so successful is that they get the odd newbie because of an addicted family member or friend. But if the addicted person had to face an 80% payback, they wouldn't go nearly as much if at all eventually.


In his example, he is saying that there will be an additional $50,000 lost by patrons each day. Yet he contends that bettors will be leaving with more money each day. So it is contingent on bettors playing a lot more often, and it implies new players coming in, because bettors don't have a bottomless pit of money.

RichieP
10-31-2009, 06:02 AM
From:
Dennis (10/01/2009 9:04 PM)
"Gambling of any kind involves price; that is odds. And; equally; integrity. Horse racing has severe problems in both areas. They refuse to admit it. They refuse to accept the path that must be taken to correct it. So, decade after decade, they have meetings and discussions that always lead to the same results.

Nothing is done. More events involving bobble head dolls, 50 cent hotdogs and $1 beer. The class of gambler attracted by this offering bets very little and does not return very often. They play, they do not think or invest. Your thinking pros and semi-pros always consider price.

The direct affect of take/breakage on pools is always smaller odds. Small odds means one of two things to your real player. Wagering only when you are provided with the rare case of value. Or wagering with an entity that provides a percentage of return that offsets playing lower odds due to take/breakage. Neither of which increases churn. Your $2 bettor could care less.

Consider that, with less take/NO BREAKAGE, odds increase which in turn increases perceived value opportunities which increases wagers. More opportunity equals more churn. I also believe this provides tracks/ADWs a chance to compete with the offshore’s rebates.

Experiments, and that is all they were, in this area have been isolated, short lived and hidden. If you are going to do this, make the numbers real, make everyone do it, and advertise the hell out if it well before starting it. I played seriously for more than 30 years and quit after the pic-6 scandal when only lip service was paid to correcting the ancient system that is racing’s wagering system.

My opinion, racing has to die before it will make any real attempts to adapt. They must choose survival or extinction. $2 bettors will not replace serious players. And your serious players are dieing or wagering somewhere else that allows them to survive as well. A poorly publicized trial at some cheap bottom claimer track for two weeks with only WPS wagers reduced 1 or 2 points will NOT prove anything but what the tracks want to believe now, that less take/no breakage will not increase churn. They have a death wish and it is coming true for them.

I would return to racing if I saw cheating truly punished rather than overlooked/encouraged, a modern flow established for wagering info that instantly updates all outlets as each wager is placed (think wall street) and my own areas, WPS reduced to 10% with no breakage. That is my opinion.

For now, I continue to play poker and a few handicapping contests where I figure to have an edge. I see no value in racing as it is today, for anyone, tracks included…"

While I am not authorized to give an "Amen Bruddah" :) I will give this "Dennis" fella the "Casa Di Pizza" post of the month award for making way too much sense man!

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

DeanT
11-05-2009, 01:01 AM
"HANA's sources have confirmed that betting continued at least 40 seconds into the Golden Gate third race on Sept 26th."

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/11/maloney-on-golden-gate-incident.html

LottaKash
11-05-2009, 02:16 AM
For the fee of about 20%, you get the chance to double your money! Hooray for racing.


CJ, that about sums up the state of racing today....:jump: ...Love that one..

best,

Horseplayersbet.com
11-24-2009, 09:19 AM
"We need a marketing plan, but only after we fix our “inside the industry problems” like takeout rates, rebating, race dates, our integrity situations, cleanliness of racetracks, small wagering pools and programs being too complicated for beginners."

-Racing Exec for Tioga Downs and Vernon Downs

http://www.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=34697&z=1

Jackal
11-24-2009, 09:40 AM
"We need a marketing plan, but only after we fix our “inside the industry problems” like takeout rates, rebating, race dates, our integrity situations, cleanliness of racetracks, small wagering pools and programs being too complicated for beginners."

-Racing Exec for Tioga Downs and Vernon Downs

http://www.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=34697&z=1

Almost any casino has learning games. Beginners make token bets while being schooled on the nuances of the game. In an OTB you're darned lucky if anyone will assist you with the self serve betting machines - much less show someone how to read the form.

Horseplayersbet.com
02-10-2010, 03:01 PM
Racing is a gambling business game. Races are primarily run to attract bettors. The racing managers have had their head in the sand for a long time, and if racing is to survive as we want it the managers must embrace reality.

The State is the real C.E.O….They provide Security and Regulation

The Racetrack and Horseman are the Producers, they provide the show…Yes, they have diferences,but the common bond is putting on the show. The race card is put on to attract customers. The producers have failed because the producers have put on the show primarily for themselves,not the customers.

The Customers in racing is what the people who put on the show are trying to attract. Unfortunately,some from the Producer category think of customers as a necessary evil and refer to them as degenerate gamblers and think that it is” their” game and customers should only exist to bring them money to promote the producers interest and shut up and go home. They believe this on the basis that the customer has been entertained and that is the extent of their obligation.

Nothing could be more wrong. Racing is not primarily an entertainment venue. Racing is a participatory sport,the customers are competing against each other.

This fact should be a marketing focus.

Remember this: Racing needs customers to survive…Customers do not need racing to survive, there are many other options.

The fan base has been damaged and is shrinking. We must grow the fan base to be successful. Crutches such as slots or other substitutes will not work. We need to offer all participants a chance to make money. Customers have no chance under todays conditions.

A sure fire method of growing the fan base is to send home more winners by lowering the take out, solve the medication issues and clean up the integrity questions and put the show on for the customers, like every other business known to be successful. Every other business does not market their product to please themselves, they market to attract the customers.

This formula is not complicated anywhere except in horse racing. Ask yourself WHY?

The people love horse racing. Leadership is on the wrong track. Give the people a chance to prove it.

Who or what will stand up for the long term survival and success of OUR game?

rwwupl