HANA - Off Topic

[jonnielu]

I was just thinking about how our treasury is bare bones..
I think it is about time to look at fundraisers...
We are for the most part handicappers...How about a members only handicapping contest with a percentage of entry fees going into our treasury to fund necessary expenses. I know the officers went to Keeneland on their own dime to discuss our case with management...
How about a $40 entry fee? With a percentage going into the
HANA treasury....say 8 to 10 percent...payoffs to be spread
to allow for more people to get their money back.
Open to suggestions like weekly-monthly etc.
It would encourage membership growth and fund our efforts..
Winners could get their name recognized as best of the
best....Tell me what you think..

Stuball

How about one that offers something of high value to everyone involved. Something that would enable HANA to demonstrate to the racing industry that the march toward extinction can be reversed with a 180 in philosophy.

(The past and current philosophy being to sell $10 worth for $40 thru virtual monopoly on racing and information.)

Of course, any idea along this line would have to serve both the goals of HANA, and benefit/reward it and its members while at the same time demonstrating and affirming the core idea that all can win, by getting their money's worth. Here's how:

HANA buys a 70% interest in TrackSideEye, and takes it, along with its 1000 owners to Ellis Park in Henderson, Kentucky for the last ten days of its 2009 meet. I'll drive there, so that I can do the work from the track and supply you, the bossmen, service from the site.

Cost - $10 for each of 1000 majority owners.

Purpose - To demonstrate how sound information can enable anyone to win, and what 1000 winners can do for saving a racetrack from closing, and of course, the vital role that ordinary people (players) can have in the success or failure of an industry. (something that the already rich tend to forget.)

If HANA could build the ELP handle in this way, it would not only keep ELP from closing, and help Ron Geary make his track a player-focused track, it would create a demand for HANA to promote other tracks in this player-focused way. Either everybody wins, or everybody has an opportunity to learn to win. Everyone gets value for the dollar.

jdl

[kenwoodallpromos]

Since no one else seems to be doing it, have trainers/owners of graded stakes winners donate shoes to HANA (tax deduction?) to be auctioned off online, intitally a couple of the top horses (TC or BC winner) to be auctioned off only to HANA members to get the ball rolling at a dinner or whatever, make a press event when those shoes are presented, and then open it up to the public through EBAY etc.
If you can get MTB, RA, SB, etc so much the better. Retired, active, whatever.
You can contact some big owners and trainers at their website; at the track; through other contacts or through the tracks. I would line up some biggies and get the shoes prior to announcing through a HANA press release to the AP, Reuters, ESPN, etc; and the racing press.

[turfnsport]

H
HANA buys a 70% interest in TrackSideEye

jdl

If I buy another HANA T-Shirt, that should give HANA enough to buy 70%.

[jonnielu]

If I buy another HANA T-Shirt, that should give HANA enough to buy 70%.

Of course, new ideas tend to replace the old ones that don't work anymore, so there are some that don't like new ideas.

jdl

[jonnielu]

If I buy another HANA T-Shirt, that should give HANA enough to buy 70%.

Are you a HANA member?

[Indulto]

I was just thinking about how our treasury is bare bones..
I think it is about time to look at fundraisers...
We are for the most part handicappers...How about a members only handicapping contest with a percentage of entry fees going into our treasury to fund necessary expenses. ...stuball,
An interesting idea, but it sure would be nice to find out what the money would actually be funding first.

Another possibility might be for HANA to acquire/create and maintain a members-only historical research database containing the previous five full years of conditions and performance data on every race run in North America that could be queried on-line for a reasonable monthly fee. This would seem to be something a not-for-profit entity could benefit from without stepping on anyone's toes. If it could include Trackus data, so much the better.

[highnote]

HANA buys a 70% interest in TrackSideEye

Interesting idea. How much will a 70% share cost? And what does a 70% share represent? What is the benefit to HANA?

[PaceAdvantage]

HANA buys a 70% interest in TrackSideEye, and takes it, along with its 1000 owners to Ellis Park in Henderson, Kentucky for the last ten days of its 2009 meet. I'll drive there, so that I can do the work from the track and supply you, the bossmen, service from the site.

Cost - $10 for each of 1000 majority owners.I don't know whether to laugh, cry, scream, or simply ban....:lol:

[highnote]

HANA buys a 70% interest in TrackSideEye,


Cost - $10 for each of 1000 majority owners.



I assume this is the site for track side eye --

http://horseplayeru.com/tracksideeye.htm

Now, do you want the 1000 members to pay $10 each for the service for the ELP meet? -- or does $10 from 1000 members represent the payment for a 70% ownership in tracksideeye?

[jonnielu]

I assume this is the site for track side eye --

http://horseplayeru.com/tracksideeye.htm

Now, do you want the 1000 members to pay $10 each for the service for the ELP meet? -- or does $10 from 1000 members represent the payment for a 70% ownership in tracksideeye?

That is correct, John. There is also a link on that page to most of the Tweets going back to June across 4 different tracks. Give me an email address and I'll send you the business plan, and a page of examples that were done live.

10 X 1000 for 70% ownership. Incorporation, can handle the split well. That initial purchase takes care of what we will do at ELP for its last 10 days, and also establish the value in what TrackSideEye can do for both horseplayers, and racing.

That value will be the power to promote horse racing as a sport, build handle, and show all how to win at this game. Whether management likes it or not.

So, it is $10 per man to see if in the next three weekends 1001 horseplayers can influence the game to the extent that Ron Geary will apply for dates and plan a solid meeting for 2010, without slots.

If so, then it is off to the races for horseplayer influence on every aspect of the game, and HANA owns a very powerful information source.

jdl

[jonnielu]

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, scream, or simply ban....:lol:

I'd vote for sitting tight with a ham sandwich and a beer in the tent. Birth can be painful, but, if a positive influence on racing is being born, it would be worth it.

I doubt that you have come this far thinking that I offer nothing of value.

jdl

[stuball]

Why do I get the feeling that my original thread was hijacked by someone promoting a product? Also he is asking for $10 from each member of HANA on like what 1 days notice-- impossible to pull off.

Things like this do not move quickly nor should they..

Stuball

[BillW]

Why do I get the feeling that my original thread was hijacked by someone promoting a product?
Stuball

Not an uncommon event :rolleyes:

[Charli125]

stuball,
An interesting idea, but it sure would be nice to find out what the money would actually be funding first.

(I'm not speaking for HANA here, the below is my opinion only.)
I think this is a very valid question, and one that I have asked and had answered to my satisfaction. I don't have the notes I took here with me as I'm in the office, but if you work out the costs to attend just one convention, you'll be surprised how quickly it adds up. You have entry fees(in order to get a booth), travel expenses(flight, hotel, meals, etc.), marketing materials(brochures, banner, etc.), and the list goes on. You could easily spend 10K to send 2 people to 1 convention.

I think HANA is at the stage right now where one of the top priorities is to build a larger membership in order to have a louder voice(or wield a bigger sword as some would put it). That means that marketing is key. Here is one example of the costs associated with marketing to a large portion of the population.

http://www.drf.com/about/about_ad_rates.html Look at those prices! If you want to reach a lot of the folks that are at the track every day, drf is the way to do it, but that's not chump change.

[jonnielu]

Why do I get the feeling that my original thread was hijacked by someone promoting a product? Also he is asking for $10 from each member of HANA on like what 1 days notice-- impossible to pull off.

Things like this do not move quickly nor should they..

Stuball

Nothing is impossible. Is it not a good idea for horseplayers to save Ellis Park?

What can I do to get you past your suspicions?

If I were trying to pull something off on someone, would I be doing it right here in front of everyone.

jdl

[jonnielu]

(I'm not speaking for HANA here, the below is my opinion only.)
I think this is a very valid question, and one that I have asked and had answered to my satisfaction. I don't have the notes I took here with me as I'm in the office, but if you work out the costs to attend just one convention, you'll be surprised how quickly it adds up. You have entry fees(in order to get a booth), travel expenses(flight, hotel, meals, etc.), marketing materials(brochures, banner, etc.), and the list goes on. You could easily spend 10K to send 2 people to 1 convention.

I think HANA is at the stage right now where one of the top priorities is to build a larger membership in order to have a louder voice(or wield a bigger sword as some would put it). That means that marketing is key. Here is one example of the costs associated with marketing to a large portion of the population.

http://www.drf.com/about/about_ad_rates.html Look at those prices! If you want to reach a lot of the folks that are at the track every day, drf is the way to do it, but that's not chump change.

1001 people working as a body on the internet in an effort to demonstrate the power of horseplayers can reach a tremendous number of people.

If those people put an effort into saving a race track from closure, there is going to be publicity.

jdl

[jonnielu]

So then, HANA has no interest in trying to keep a race track open in Kentucky?

It seemed like such a good match too. Would PA be willing to donate a little space to Ellis Park?

jdl

[PaceAdvantage]

I doubt that you have come this far thinking that I offer nothing of value.Your selfish opportunism has risen to ugly levels. Even more so your apparent desperation to be seen, heard, and ultimately purchased...:lol:

The hijack ends now....

[Indulto]

(I'm not speaking for HANA here, the below is my opinion only.)
I think this is a very valid question, and one that I have asked and had answered to my satisfaction. I don't have the notes I took here with me as I'm in the office, but if you work out the costs to attend just one convention, you'll be surprised how quickly it adds up. You have entry fees(in order to get a booth), travel expenses(flight, hotel, meals, etc.), marketing materials(brochures, banner, etc.), and the list goes on. You could easily spend 10K to send 2 people to 1 convention.

I think HANA is at the stage right now where one of the top priorities is to build a larger membership in order to have a louder voice(or wield a bigger sword as some would put it). That means that marketing is key. Here is one example of the costs associated with marketing to a large portion of the population.

http://www.drf.com/about/about_ad_rates.html Look at those prices! If you want to reach a lot of the folks that are at the track every day, drf is the way to do it, but that's not chump change.C5,
Thanks for responding.

You are one of less than 10% of HANA members who participate on this board (for some only to respond to polls ;)), although I'm sure there are many lurkers. I'm glad you were able to find out what activities HANA wishes to fund, and grateful that you were willing to share some of it, but why shouldn't that be common knowledge among all members?

What convention is HANA planning to attend and why spend the money on a second representative there rather than a DRF ad? How is attending that convention intended to increase membership? I agree that should be the goal, provided it is an informed membership that is being built.

Permit me to paraphrase a portion of your remarks by saying that it apears HANA is ON STAGE right now with an audience of members of which only a few are getting backstage passes to receive information.

IMO the most effective way to increase membership is to allow the membership to participate, and enable them to recruit using knowledge, popular objectives, and renewed passion for the game as it could be.

[Jeff P]

Permit me to paraphrase a portion of your remarks by saying that it apears HANA is ON STAGE right now with an audience of members of which only a few are getting backstage passes to receive information.And if you were a HANA member you'd know how ridiculous that statement is.

Every HANA member received at least three emails from me in the weeks leading up to our trip to Yavapai telling them:

1. You are invited.

2. What's on the table for discussion.

3. Who we are meeting with.

Only a handful attended. That's ok. The analogy that comes to mind is that only a tiny percentage attend meetings for corporate shareholders. But a few hundred did take the time to write back and THANK ME for making the effort even though they had decided not to attend.

What you may not know is that a positive dialog was opened up between players, track management, and the AZ horsemen and on quite a few critical issues. Hope exists where NONE existed before. I don't know how far things can go but I have to think that maybe we DO have the ability to move forward and get SOME of the bad things in AZ changed.

Indy, at least we're out there trying which is more than YOU are doing by trolling here on PA.

As as a follow up every HANA member can expect an email from me in the coming days giving them an AZ progress report.

Indy, stay anonymous and remain an outsider looking in if you want to. :bang: :bang:

But if you were a HANA member you wouldn't be uninformed and posting half the crap that you post.


-jp

.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, scream, or simply ban....:lol:Want a suggestion? :p

[Hajck Hillstrom]

If I were trying to pull something off on someone, would I be doing it right here in front of everyone.Its never stopped you before....

[Indulto]

JP,
Before I address your post, I want to make it clear that I didn’t connect C5’s reference to a CONVENTION with the MEETING that had already taken place at Yavapai Downs, and so I assumed it was an upcoming event being considered as well as an ad in the DRF.Permit me to paraphrase a portion of your remarks by saying that it apears HANA is ON STAGE right now with an audience of members of which only a few are getting backstage passes to receive information.And if you were a HANA member you'd know how ridiculous that statement is.

Every HANA member received at least three emails from me in the weeks leading up to our trip to Yavapai telling them:

1. You are invited.

2. What's on the table for discussion.


3. Who we are meeting with.As I remain a member of HANA at least in my own mind, and apparently that of someone at HANA, I received the following two e-mails from you and a blog piece reference containing a copy of one of them: Indulto,

HANA will be at Yavapai Downs in Prescott Valley, AZ - Saturday and Sunday August 8th and 9th, 2009. We'll be meeting with track management, horsemen, as well as faculty and students from the University of Arizona's Racetrack Industry Program.

Yavapai General Manager, Gary Striker, has not only offered free admission to HANA members for those dates, but has also promised us a room in the clubhouse and a nice complimentary buffet spread.

Please make plans to join us and RSVP to me personally as soon as possible so I can give Gary a head count for the free food.

We're currently running a simple questionnaire in the HANA Forum at PaceAdvantage.com. Please take a moment to make your voice heard and give us your opinions on subjects such as takeout, horseplayer involvement and Arizona's ADW Law.

Is takeout too high?
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60119 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60119)

Should horseplayers be involved in trying to get takeout reduced?
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60121 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60121)

Should Arizona's ADW Law be overturned?
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60132 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60132)

Should horseplayers be involved in trying to get Arizona's ADW Law be overturned?
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60139 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60139)

Please, make your voice heard and let us know what you think.

Make plans to meet us at Yavapai on Saturday and Sunday August 8th and 9th, 2009. RSVP to me personally.

Sincerely,


Jeff Platt

HANA PresidentI just checked Chick’s poll, “Are you a HANA member,” which suggests that only 88 PA board members are HANA members. Were you able to find out what over 1000 other HANA members you represent thought? What has HANA gleaned from these polls and did it affect what were HANA’s positions and objectives regarding these issues going into the meeting? Who else knew those positions and objectives?Indulto,

You are invited to attend a meeting between HANA, track management from Yavapai Downs, and representatives from the AZ HBPA.

WHEN: This Sunday August 9, 2009 at 10:00 am.

WHERE: In a conference room in the clubhouse at Yavapai Downs in Prescott Valley, AZ

AGENDA: The topic of discussion will be horseplayer concerns: takeout, signal availability, pool integrity, drugs, quality of the product, and AZ's ADW law. HANA will be presenting suggestions for improving each of these critical areas. Track management and horsemen have promised us they WILL be listening.

If improving conditions for horseplayers in AZ is something that matters to you, YOUR presence is requested and we urge you to attend. We can not stress the importance of this strongly enough. Please understand that this is a meeting not a demonstration or a protest. If you have something to say you will be given the chance to be heard. If you choose not to speak up that is perfectly ok. By simply showing up you will be letting decision makers within the Arizona Racing Industry know that the voice of the player matters.

Your presence is requested and we strongly urge you to attend.

RSVP to me personally.

Sincerely,


Jeff Platt

President, HANAWhat were those suggestions?

I’m sympathetic to the plight of AZ horseplayers. As a resident of CA, I know how it felt to be denied participation in PTC under Ian Meyers' leadership. As a U.S. citizen, I find it offensive that there are some states in which horseplayers are not permitted to pursue happiness on the internet, especially those with infirmities. Where was HANA’s position paper on AZ’s denial of our rights vis a vis those of residents of other states? Just to play devil’s advocate, is AZ even the worst case since at least some people can still bet there if they are able to attend?Only a handful attended. That's ok. The analogy that comes to mind is that only a tiny percentage attend meetings for corporate shareholders. But a few hundred did take the time to write back and THANK ME for making the effort even though they had decided not to attend.I wonder if others were as uncertain as I was as to what you expected to accomplish.What you may not know is that a positive dialog was opened up between players, track management, and the AZ horsemen and on quite a few critical issues. Hope exists where NONE existed before. I don't know how far things can go but I have to think that maybe we DO have the ability to move forward and get SOME of the bad things in AZ changed.If I had known enough to be able to support what you were doing there – and HANA had the ability to accept anonymous donations – I could have helped fund people’s attending who were prepared to participate to achieve approved objectives.Indy, at least we're out there trying which is more than YOU are doing by trolling here on PA.

As as a follow up every HANA member can expect an email from me in the coming days giving them an AZ progress report.

Indy, stay anonymous and remain an outsider looking in if you want to.

But if you were a HANA member you wouldn't be uninformed and posting half the crap that you post.


-jpJeff,
You and I haven’t interacted much in the past, but to the extent I’ve been exposed to your thinking, I was usually impressed. I still believe you are well-intended, but some of the collective priorities you now pursue don’t match up well with those of the non-professional horseplayers who are the only people I talk with outside of cyberspace.

Let me make it clear that my dissenting views aren’t intended to set HANA back, but rather to improve its effectiveness by making it responsible to -- and representative of -- its membership. And I assure you, that's something I'm trying very hard to accomplish. I don't comment in these threads just for amusement's sake, but neither do I avoid opportunities to inject humor when they present themselves.

If I still don’t agree with where you are trying taking us once the will of the membership is reflected, then that’s the time for me to look elsewhere to effect the reforms I seek; many of which formed the original premise and promise of HANA.

During my brief early tenure on the HANA team, it was no secret that anonymous signups were not uncommon as were people who were uncomfortable supplying personal annual handle estimates. Given today’s increasing dependence on internet communication and participation in racing as well as other endeavors, I believe it is incumbent upon you to find a way to involve anonymous players rather than the other way around.

I don’t take offense at your accusing me of “trolling.” I just wish provoking you wasn’t the only way to get information out of you. Your reference to the “crap I post,” however, will have to be more specific to stick. You may not like some of my analogies, but you need to step back and consider how what you’re doing, collectively, appears to others.

It’s what WE don’t know that’s hurting YOU.

Indy

[Jeff P]

...some of the collective priorities you now pursue don’t match up well with those of the non-professional horseplayers who are the only people I talk with outside of cyberspace.Really?

Just to be clear HANA's mission statement is Giving Horseplayers a Voice. Our goals are right on the homepage of our site:

1. ADW Signal Availability
2, Takeout
3. Drugs
4. Pool Integrity
5. Quality of the Product

Improving conditions for players in each of those 5 areas are pretty important to us. The wording on our site describes those goals pretty clearly.

Meeting industry decision makers face to face and voicing how important these goals are to us is crucial. In many cases we've managed to open up a dialog and even begin moving forward with positive change. Mainly because the things we are suggesting are a win-win for everybody concerned.

That's a first. To my knowledge no one before us has ever done that before.

Dude, if you can't get behind that then I don't know what to tell you.

What has HANA gleaned from these polls and did it affect what were HANA’s positions and objectives regarding these issues going into the meeting? Who else knew those positions and objectives?Here's what I learned from the polls I ran:

1. About 95 percent think takeout is too high.

2. About 98 percent want us working to get it lowered.

3. About 97 percent think AZ's ADW Law is an injustice.

4. About 91 percent want us working to get it overturned.

And yes, I passed this information on to track management and horsemen in AZ. And yes, since you asked, conditions in AZ for horseplayers are the worst in the US. Nowhere else in the US can you be convicted of a felony for logging into Youbet and submitting a wager on a horse race. It's insane.

You also asked for the specific suggestions I presented during the meeting. No. I'm not going to post details publicly. Nobody does that while negotiations are ongoing. Be assured though that the specific suggestions presented were very much in line with the goals posted on the HANA site and would be a win for players in AZ as well as a win for the AZ racing industry if adopted.

During my brief early tenure on the HANA team, it was no secret that anonymous signups were not uncommon as were people who were uncomfortable supplying personal annual handle estimates. Given today’s increasing dependence on internet communication and participation in racing as well as other endeavors, I believe it is incumbent upon you to find a way to involve anonymous players rather than the other way around.

The only things we require on the sign up sheet are name, city, state, zip code, and email address. That's it. Everything else is optional.

When I sit down face to face with track management, adw operators, data suppliers, horsemen's groups, tote company management, or committee members from some other segment of the industry - the first thing they always ask is "What's your total membership up to now?" When I answer I don't want to lie to them. I want the number to be accurate. I want it to be real people who on some level are willing to stand up for themselves and our goals and be counted.

If you're not willing to give out basic info and be counted then I'm not going to count you as a HANA member. That's just the way it is. No apologies.

Peace,


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

And now that this thread about a VERY GOOD and FUN idea has been taken waaay off track once again - can I get a little help from PA or a moderator?

Would it be possible to create a new thread - give it an interesting thread title (something like HANA Off Topic might be fitting) and move every post from this thread not about a handicapping contest into the new thread... leaving ONLY the posts about a handicapping contest in this thread.

Can we do that? I'd really like to have a thread dedicated to Stuball's idea about a handicapping contest so that future posts can be made here as we move forward with the idea.

Thanks,

-jp

.

[Indulto]

… If you're not willing to give out basic info and be counted then I'm not going to count you as a HANA member. That's just the way it is. No apologies.

Peace,

-jpApparently my excommunication is finally official, but you’ve said nothing to address concerns that even HANA members you’re willing to count will have little say in how the organization proceeds.

How can there be any “Peace” as long as rebated professional players continue to succeed while the unrebated racing industry customer remains subject to unconscionably high takeout that -- with extremely rare exceptions -- virtually guarantees his failure regardless of his skill level.

In the opinion of people I hang with, "Dude," that is most pressing issue that needs to be resolved by a horseplayer reform movement. The following passage from your post in the ELP thread pretty much tells me where you're at:… But my handle and the handle of others like me isn't enough. Even if I rounded up the best and brightest horseplayers that I know... and believe me when I tell you there is some serious fire power handicapping and betting-wise among the HANA Board, Advisory Board, membership, and a handful here at PA that maybe aren't HANA members... and among that last category know that I am talking about key decision makers from some of the world's largest computer teams with whom I have spoken with at length - even if I rounded up the best and brightest players on the planet - and brought them all to Ellis - and THEY gave out really solid information (I have to admit this would be an absolute blast!) - JDL, it wouldn't be enough.

Racing is a parimutuel game. For there to be winners there have to be losers. No matter how strong the information we might be able to give out... WHO are we going to win money from? There isn't enough unsophisticated money sitting in the Ellis pools to WIN the kind of money it would take to do what you are suggesting. …Good luck to the handicapping contest participants.;)

[Charli125]

JP,
Before I address your post, I want to make it clear that I didn’t connect C5’s reference to a CONVENTION with the MEETING that had already taken place at Yavapai Downs, and so I assumed it was an upcoming event being considered as well as an ad in the DRF.
Indy

I wasn't talking about any specific convention, meeting or otherwise. I made it clear that I'm not talking on behalf of HANA, and I was just using DRF and a convention as examples. Someone asked what full coffers would be used for, and I gave an example of several items that they "could" be used for.

[Indulto]

JP,
Before I address your post, I want to make it clear that I didn’t connect C5’s reference to a CONVENTION with the MEETING that had already taken place at Yavapai Downs, and so I assumed it was an upcoming event being considered as well as an ad in the DRF.
IndyI wasn't talking about any specific convention, meeting or otherwise. I made it clear that I'm not talking on behalf of HANA, and I was just using DRF and a convention as examples. Someone asked what full coffers would be used for, and I gave an example of several items that they "could" be used for.Well, C5, you certainly managed to confuse me. I interpreted your “opinion” below as supporting the validity of the question I had asked since it was my post you were quoting, and further that you were responding to me, specifically. stuball,
An interesting idea, but it sure would be nice to find out what the money would actually be funding first(I'm not speaking for HANA here, the below is my opinion only.)
I think this is a very valid question, and one that I have asked and had answered to my satisfaction. I don't have the notes I took here with me as I'm in the office, but if you work out the costs to attend just one convention, you'll be surprised how quickly it adds up. You have entry fees(in order to get a booth), travel expenses(flight, hotel, meals, etc.), marketing materials(brochures, banner, etc.), and the list goes on. You could easily spend 10K to send 2 people to 1 convention.

I think HANA is at the stage right now where one of the top priorities is to build a larger membership in order to have a louder voice(or wield a bigger sword as some would put it). That means that marketing is key. Here is one example of the costs associated with marketing to a large portion of the population.

http://www.drf.com/about/about_ad_rates.html (http://www.drf.com/about/about_ad_rates.html) Look at those prices! If you want to reach a lot of the folks that are at the track every day, drf is the way to do it, but that's not chump change.Your original post appeared to suggest you had asked a similar question and received a satisfactory answer, from which you took notes. While the DRF ad did appear to be a hypothetical example of a considerable marketing expense, there was little to suggest (to me, anyway) that a convention wasn’t a part of that “satisfactory” answer you received as opposed to an example being used to support some opinion that wasn't necessarily HANA's. Now I understand that was not what you intended.

[PaceAdvantage]

And now that this thread about a VERY GOOD and FUN idea has been taken waaay off track once again - can I get a little help from PA or a moderator?

Would it be possible to create a new thread - give it an interesting thread title (something like HANA Off Topic might be fitting) and move every post from this thread not about a handicapping contest into the new thread... leaving ONLY the posts about a handicapping contest in this thread.

Can we do that? I'd really like to have a thread dedicated to Stuball's idea about a handicapping contest so that future posts can be made here as we move forward with the idea.

Thanks,

-jp

.Done

[jonnielu]

Its never stopped you before....

Certainly, you have evidence to post along with the accusation...

jdl