What Does Tioga Need to Do to Build Handle?

[Pacingguy]

Okay, I am curious, what does Tioga Downs need to do to build up handle. Clearly, the local crowd is not wagering what one would hope.

It can't be takeout as their takeout rates are some of the lowest. It goes without saying, you can't bet a lot because the handle is small, but people could be something there. What is it that keeps people from wagering there?

Is it the size of the track? The quality of the horses? The quality of the drivers? Are they competing against other tracks with a better deal?

I would be curious to see what people think. Feel free to add other reasons?

[netbet]

There is no excuse for not betting the races at Tioga this evening.

[Pacingguy]

Originally Posted by netbet

There is no excuse for not betting the races at Tioga this evening.

True, but I am not talking special events, I am talking on a regular basis.

[Canarsie]

A free Trackmaster platinum program. I used to subscribe but my harness action didn't warrant the cost anymore so I canceled. If they gave that out I would play a little.

[Not4Love]

How about free pp's!!! At twinspires they offer it with thoroughbreds (IF YOU PLAY THE TRACK YOU DOWNLOAD)... Yonkers offered them last february. So it should be possible. I know I would play a lot more. Plus the basic package is more expensive ($1.50 vs. $1.00) than the thoroughbreds.

[Zydeco]

they have free pps for tonight..see other thread from tioga guys

[lamboguy]

i just saw a great first race there! pretty exciting.

my opinion is that the guy that owns and runs tioga and meadowlands knows what he's doing. the reason for poor handles has nothing to do with him. its the industry that he has to buck. there needs to be some better accountability in this sport. it would have to be the whole sport too. i have been watching the product that he has been putting out, and it is top notch. he just can't do it all.

[Hanover1]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

i just saw a great first race there! pretty exciting.

my opinion is that the guy that owns and runs tioga and meadowlands knows what he's doing. the reason for poor handles has nothing to do with him. its the industry that he has to buck. there needs to be some better accountability in this sport. it would have to be the whole sport too. i have been watching the product that he has been putting out, and it is top notch. he just can't do it all.

A bit O/T here, and I apologise PA, but to address your response Lambo....You are on target here. Ask the average Joe what comes to mind when you mention a horse race, and the answer is a TB race. You would be surprised how many people I have engaged thru the years that have actually never even heard of a harness race. Then we segue into what they hear first when inquiring about the action. As you can imagine, its not all good....takeout and doping/race fixing reputation is a tough rap to shake, despite whatever reaility/perspective one may have. Gural is a brave man fighting an uphill battle imo.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by Hanover1

A bit O/T here, and I apologise PA, but to address your response Lambo....You are on target here. Ask the average Joe what comes to mind when you mention a horse race, and the answer is a TB race. You would be surprised how many people I have engaged thru the years that have actually never even heard of a harness race. Then we segue into what they hear first when inquiring about the action. As you can imagine, its not all good....takeout and doping/race fixing reputation is a tough rap to shake, despite whatever reaility/perspective one may have. Gural is a brave man fighting an uphill battle imo.

i think he is a very smart man. harness racing has very limited risk from here. it either gets straightened out and heads towards the top, or it just dies right here and now. from what i am seeing now, casino gambling in this country is declining in established places. people really love horse racing if presented properly. no one wants to lose their money, but if they are having fun they don't mind so much. harness racing is more of a blue collar sport these days. in cheaper venues you can still pay less than $50 per day to train horses. they run every week. and the amount of money you lose owning them is not that much. the only way you get these people to participate is by offering a level playing field . once that happens you will have a good strudy sport.

[rikkisnumber]

I'm a relative newbie to Harness Racing, and I've found that I do best on the big ovals. Being a west coast guy, I've stuck to betting Calx and Bml. I want a race where all the entrants have a chance. I've never been to Tioga, so I have no idea if they have the room to expand, but if they were a 7/8 oval, I'd play!

Rich

[sonnyp]

i'm from a generation with 3 network t v channels and rotary phones. horse racing had a decent number and % of the public interested back then, although, harness has always held the lesser position relative to the runners.

with the explosion of competition, internet, sports, cable tv, etc. horse racing has lost a significant portion of its followers. it used to be the only legal form of gambling also, but now that part of the equation has changed also.

horse racing is over exposed and diluted. i will commit a sin by saying that even the mid-week cards at saratoga this year stunk. 3,4 or 5 maiden races a day, turf sprints and n y breds race after race. i know they have to go with what they have, but i think a 5 day week would have made for better racing.

with saratoga being the best, where does that leave the rest....and then there's harness....and then there's tioga.

i feel racing had its place in the sun and it will never return to those days of 75,000 at belmont or 25,000 at roosevelt. i don't think there is a heck of a lot that can be done to stimulate more interest or increase in handle.

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

i think he is a very smart man. harness racing has very limited risk from here. it either gets straightened out and heads towards the top, or it just dies right here and now. from what i am seeing now, casino gambling in this country is declining in established places. people really love horse racing if presented properly. no one wants to lose their money, but if they are having fun they don't mind so much. harness racing is more of a blue collar sport these days. in cheaper venues you can still pay less than $50 per day to train horses. they run every week. and the amount of money you lose owning them is not that much. the only way you get these people to participate is by offering a level playing field . once that happens you will have a good strudy sport.

like the thoroughbreds ?

[lamboguy]

sonny, before meadowlands opened, rockingham park used to get 25,000 people on a wednesday night betting harness in the 1970's.

i used to see fair meets in new england that had the bottom of the bottom horses running every single race and they handled over $2 million on a saturday with saratoga running and no simulcasting.

in any form of horseracing you can position yourself as close to the action as you can possibly be compared to any other sport. horse racing is the only game around that has fan participation via the mutual windows.

when given the choice, do you really thing people like to act like dopeaholics and sit in front of machines that eat their money up compared to a game where you need to use your brain?

[Hanover1]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

i think he is a very smart man. harness racing has very limited risk from here. it either gets straightened out and heads towards the top, or it just dies right here and now. from what i am seeing now, casino gambling in this country is declining in established places. people really love horse racing if presented properly. no one wants to lose their money, but if they are having fun they don't mind so much. harness racing is more of a blue collar sport these days. in cheaper venues you can still pay less than $50 per day to train horses. they run every week. and the amount of money you lose owning them is not that much. the only way you get these people to participate is by offering a level playing field . once that happens you will have a good strudy sport.

It is akin to suffering a long debilitating illness. Linger awhile, then......we have discussed at lenght the issues on the TB side, and harness reflects many of the same concerns. The gambling dollar is diluted, and harness is on life (slot) support at most venues. Gural owns 2 tracks that are slot infused, and I bet dimes to dollars he is holding out for the 3rd at some point in time. It is a calculated risk he is taking with M1.
Many generations of families have held this sport together for decades. Many of these players are either selling out ala Peretti Farms, Castelton Farms (gone awhile now) Hempt, ect...they see/saw the writing on the wall, and these were heavy hitters akin to, say, Calumet, with their respective histories and sales figures of days gone by. The answer is not to open up another casino and allow racing. That welfare check will stop at some time, then the bells will toll. Some grassroots racing may continue, but it is tough to eke out a living that way, and offers zero value to bettors worldwide. Downsize real quick or die a slow death is the popular assumption at this time. Not another slot infused track.

[LottaKash]

I couldn't agree more with what everyone sees and feels....

I fee that too...

I believe that we are all sucking the last juices that the cow has to give....

Goodbye Teat, I will miss ya.....It was a Roller-Coaster of a ride, and I wouldn't trade any of it, for nothin'....

I will gladly continue to suckle while there is still some milk....or I die, whichever comes first....

best,