The I.R.S. Window - Chapter 8 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Steven Kolb · 08-28-2009, 02:37 AM

The thread "signers" was good.

This link is a chapter about the IRS from my book.
It's about 7-8 pages. I think there will be something
for everyone - - even the "hardened" track veterans.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/a...tid=4780&stc=1

Is that last story about you, or someone you know?

GL
www.stevenkolb.com

rrpic6 · 08-28-2009, 05:40 AM

Nicely written excerpt Steven. A common scenario for myself and many others here. However, jdl is able to bypass all that paperwork crap.

RR

judd · 08-28-2009, 05:45 AM

isnt it odd if you bet $200 to win on a horse that pays $50 and you get back $5,000 cash but no signer then bet a $1 tri box for $6.00 and hit for $1600
you have to sign !!!

andymays · 08-28-2009, 05:46 AM

With any signer over 25k you should be able to go to some office and do it in private.

It's nobody's business and it can be dangerous on the way to the parking lot and home.

SoCalCircuit · 08-28-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judd

isnt it odd if you bet $200 to win on a horse that pays $50 and you get back $5,000 cash but no signer then bet a $1 tri box for $6.00 and hit for $1600
you have to sign !!!

Not really because youre essentially making 100 separate 2 dollar win bets, it just consolidates on the ticket to make everyones lives easier

rrbauer · 08-28-2009, 10:30 AM

First, you do not have to keep losing tickets to document your losses. So long as you're consistent, a daily log showing bets/cashes will do just fine.
I speak from experience with multiple IRS audits over the years. Indeed, with most players making bets online, being able to recall detail from your online account and print/save it for your records is equally important.

Second, you must itemize your deductions in order to offset gambling winnings with losses. About 65% of US taxpayers do not itemize and I presume that a similar percentage exists in the horseplayer world. If you don't routinely itemize and you do keep records and you have some "signers", look at declaring ALL of your cashes as "winnings" and then using the "bet amounts" as losings and see if that will put you over the threshold as far as itemizing giving you a better bottom line than just taking the standard deductions. This will allow you to offset the signers with losses that you can't do using the standard deductions. One more reason to keep records of your betting.

DJofSD · 08-28-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

With any signer over 25k you should be able to go to some office and do it in private.

It's nobody's business and it can be dangerous on the way to the parking lot and home.

I would never cash a large ticket on the same day. Go home. Photo copy it. Put it in a safe or a safe place then go back on a different day. Running up to the window and celebrating is a recipe for trouble. And for heavens sake, don't do what the guy did at HOL years ago -- demand large amounts in cash then basically broadcast to the world you're heading to Vegas.

andymays · 08-28-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJofSD

I would never cash a large ticket on the same day. Go home. Photo copy it. Put it in a safe or a safe place then go back on a different day. Running up to the window and celebrating is a recipe for trouble. And for heavens sake, don't do what the guy did at HOL years ago -- demand large amounts in cash then basically broadcast to the world you're heading to Vegas.

Good Advice. I usually go back about an 90 minutes before post time to cash the larger tickets. Nobody is there yet. Carrying large amounts of cash is not only dangerous it's hard to put more than 20k on your person even if you have a jacket on. If you don't have a jacket you can put 5k in each sock, 10k in each front pocket and that's about it before it becomes a big problem. Also never ever go to a Gentlemans Club after a big score carrying lots of cash! That's a no brainer!

Steven Kolb · 08-28-2009, 03:16 PM

Andy's idea of a private office is good - - - until a line starts forming at the "private" office.
DJ's photo copy & then return to cash out is a good idea - - I've done it.
_____
_____
Bauer - *** NTRA has a chart saying there are something like 70M racing fans in this country. Perhaps. If there are 10M "active" players - those making wagers at least occasionally - then think about this...
_____
Of the US online wagering sites (these handle full Pick 6's - sorry if I miss one or two) the following have unique monthly visitors...
TVG = 98K . Youbet = 45K . Twinspires = 37K . Xpressbet = 29K _ Total = 209,000
_____
Since many use multiple sites (I use two) - 200,000 online wagering players seems fair.
That leaves more than 9,800,000 racing fans who bet at tracks or OTB's. My writing is directed towards those fans - (I wish they'd all buy the book

If they follow my advise and hit a $60,000 Pick 6, they should itemize and confidently have proof of their wagering activity; which won't be a report from TVG, Youbet, et al.
As you correctly state - - Keep good records!!!

Thanks!
sk
www.stevenkolb.com

*statistics from quantcast.com

JohnGalt1 · 08-28-2009, 08:16 PM

I always use SAMs.

So if I win a decent amount, I get vouchers.

And if I win much more than a decent amount, I get a check.

jamey1977 · 05-12-2010, 05:44 AM

What if someone steals your voucher or mugs you in the parking lot and takes your voucher along with your wallet? How do you get it back ?

menifee · 05-12-2010, 11:22 AM

You miss an important point in the book. In some states, you are not allowed to deduct losses off your gambling winning for state income tax purposes (e.g., Massachusetts). However, you can deduct the amount of the winning ticket.

This is important. Most people who cash winning IRS tickets (or any tickets) at a track never get the winning ticket back and don't keep good records, so they are unable to do this. If you are a big player, it can add up to savings on your state tax bill if you keep those tickets. Thankfully, with ADW's, you can review every wager you made to determine this information.

Fingal · 05-12-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJofSD

I would never cash a large ticket on the same day. Go home. Photo copy it. Put it in a safe or a safe place then go back on a different day. Running up to the window and celebrating is a recipe for trouble. And for heavens sake, don't do what the guy did at HOL years ago -- demand large amounts in cash then basically broadcast to the world you're heading to Vegas.

Doesn't matter if it's a signer, or ticket that results in something that doesn't trigger the IRS window but is still substantial. Cash it next week- remember tickets have an expiration date, they don't become null & void in 24 hours. Maybe it's because I live fairly close to Santa Anita, but a large ticket from Hollywood gets cashed at SA simulcast. Go early- go to the window as soon as they open when the place is largely empty. Don't cash out several tickets at once that would result in a big payoff. Break it up- do one this day, maybe a couple more another time- A couple of years ago at SA there was one guy who saved up all his winners for the year & cashed them out at once to get a cheap thrill, of course he got relieved of it in the parking lot.

macdiarmida · 05-12-2010, 05:42 PM

The bit about losing tickets just lying around needs a caveat. In California, all discards belong to the state of California; they get all unclaimed winning tickets. While some security guards don't care, there are some with a stick up their *** that zealously enforce. If your idea of a good time at the races is sitting in the security office for the rest of the day, go ahead and make it obvious you are picking up losing tickets. There are pro and amateur/pro stoopers around, and if you ask them, they've all spent time in "detention hall", many on multiple occasions. And yeah, some of the pro stoopers have bought immunity with donuts.

Quote:

Originally posted by rrbauer
First, you do not have to keep losing tickets to document your losses.

You do have to have some sort of records. There's the rub for most people. Better to accumulate losing tickets just in case; it's a lazy way, but it's an easy way also.

Spiderman · 11-02-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Kolb

The thread "signers" was good.

This link is a chapter about the IRS from my book.
It's about 7-8 pages. I think there will be something
for everyone - - even the "hardened" track veterans.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/a...tid=4780&stc=1

Is that last story about you, or someone you know?

GL
www.stevenkolb.com

Steven,

What you fail to mention is that the losses against winnings must be filed on Schedule A. 60-70% of tax payers use the standard deduction. Let's say, the winner/taxpayer is entitled to minimum standard deduction of $3,500, he loses that deduction by filing a Schedule A.

Furthermore, the amount of winnings is added to income and taxpayer will be limited in reeporting medical expenses and donations which are both based on a percentage of income - the higher the income, the less that can be reported.

Yes, it would be great to hit a massive score. Then, the aforementioned regulation to file losses v. winnings on Schedule A would be relatively less a burden. But, by winning a 'signer', a bettor/taxpayer loses.