What's too long to just be a run up?

[FenceBored]

Some of the responses andymays has gotten to his inquires about run up distances are amazing. I didn't want to distract from the focus of the other thread, so I'm starting a different one.

220ft for a 1m race at Del Mar.
170ft for a 1m at Santa Anita.
283ft for a 9f turf (w 30ft rail) at Santa Anita.

These, in my view, go beyond a run up, but actually produce a race that is misidentified.

A furlong is 660ft
A half-furlong is 330ft.
A qtr-furlong is 165ft.

A 1m race with 170ft run up is really a 1m40y race (w/ 50ft run up) where only 1m is timed. The 9f turf race with a 283ft run up is really 9.4f with only 9 timed. My favorite is the 1m with 220ft run up. A 1m70y race at a track with a short run up will not be noticeably longer (18ft on a 28ft run up; 30ft on a 40ft run up).

If you are looking at a sprinter who can just barely stretch it to a mile on occasion and he’s entered at Del Mar at a mile, toss him.

My memory is that Monmouth used not to card 1m races due to the configuration of the track, which is why the Breeders Cup Dirt Mile at Monmouth was carded as 1m40y. Well, why does Santa Anita call the same distance a 1m race (see above)?

So, my question is, what distance should be too long just to call it a run up?

[andymays]

What would change if we started the timer when the gates open. In other words NO RUN UPS!

Having said that the extreme run ups are the ones to make money with if you are aware when the public is not!

The extremely long run ups are usually because of a turn coming up too soon and they don't want to dissadvantage the outside post positions. That's the reason for the Del Mar Mile run up distance being 220 feet.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by andymays

What would change if we started the timer when the gates open. In other words NO RUN UPS!

Having said that the extreme run ups are the ones to make money with if you are aware when the public is not!

The extremely long run ups are usually because of a turn coming up too soon and they don't want to dissadvantage the outside post positions. That's the reason for the Del Mar Mile run up distance being 220 feet.

I understand Del Mar's reason for not having a shorter runup. My point is that 1m70y is a well understood distance and if they moved the gate back about 30 ft they'd have a 1m70y race with a 40ft run up instead of the 1m race with extra 70.333 yrd thing they have now. They'd rather keep things as they are.

To go to the absurd case, what if Churchill just put a gate at the end of their 1m chute and left it there. For distances under 1m, you'd just add an extra "run up" of anywhere between 1 to 3.5 furlongs. Of course, that'd be silly. A pure sprinter would lose 5f races to a miler. So, what is the point at which we cross over from a reasonable run up to possibly changing the outcome of the race, compared to another track with a shorter run up. With the 170ft run up at Santa Anita it's easy to say that anyone caught in the last 40 yds might have held on except for the extreme run up.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by andymays

What would change if we started the timer when the gates open. In other words NO RUN UPS!

The Mile distance at Gulfstream is interesting because there is a short run up to to the "mile pole", however the race is timed from the gate. I know the run-up in time rather than feet. There is about 1.4 seconds that you can subract from the first quarter to find the normal 1st quarter time. One reason you see a lot of fractions at GP 1M like 24.00 46.6 which seem like slow 1st quarters followed by quick 2nd quarters, but in reality were steady paced.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

The Mile distance at Gulfstream is interesting because there is a short run up to to the "mile pole", however the race is timed from the gate. I know the run-up in time rather than feet. There is about 1.4 seconds that you can subract from the first quarter to find the normal 1st quarter time. One reason you see a lot of fractions at GP 1M like 24.00 46.6 which seem like slow 1st quarters followed by quick 2nd quarters, but in reality were steady paced.

This is all good stuff and I'm glad we're having the debate. I think everyone has contributed a great deal!

[macguy]

I've been thinking a lot about run ups and Hastings Park.

For years when Hastings ran 6f they had the gate at the particular location with very little run up. This, however, put the gate right in front of the grand stand. Jockeys and the gate crew started to complain that the horses were not relaxing, and that there were too many distractions for the horses from the crowds in the grandstand.

As a result last year they ended up moving the starting gate back to nearly the 6.5f mark, literally there was practically no distance difference between the 6f races and the 6.5f races. At that time Equibase was not yet reporting run up distances and unless you were at the races and noticed this, you would have had no way of knowing that the gate crew was playing games.

I thought as a result of the change in gate position, at the very least, the track should have been carding the 6f races as About 6f, but nobody seemed interested in rocking the boat.

I'm happy that run up distances are now being reported, to tell you the truth I was never aware that they varied quite as much as they actually do from track to track.

I'm not sure about how long is too long, but at least we will have the info in print right in front of us.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by macguy

I've been thinking a lot about run ups and Hastings Park.

For years when Hastings ran 6f they had the gate at the particular location with very little run up. This, however, put the gate right in front of the grand stand. Jockeys and the gate crew started to complain that the horses were not relaxing, and that there were too many distractions for the horses from the crowds in the grandstand.

As a result last year they ended up moving the starting gate back to nearly the 6.5f mark, literally there was practically no distance difference between the 6f races and the 6.5f races. At that time Equibase was not yet reporting run up distances and unless you were at the races and noticed this, you would have had no way of knowing that the gate crew was playing games.

I thought as a result of the change in gate position, at the very least, the track should have been carding the 6f races as About 6f, but nobody seemed interested in rocking the boat.

I'm happy that run up distances are now being reported, to tell you the truth I was never aware that they varied quite as much as they actually do from track to track.

I'm not sure about how long is too long, but at least we will have the info in print right in front of us.

That's unbelievable. I thought of using 'have the gate at the same place for 6 and 6.5f races and just change the timer' as an example of absurdity in my first post, but I never dreamed a track would actually come anywhere close to doing that.

[46zilzal]

It is WELL KNOWN by anyone going to Hastings that since older horses began running 6 it was an ABOUT distance. Reported to all almost everyday. Since that change took place, I positioned my gate camera based upon a rough spot on the tarmac. NEVER had to move it as the gate varied only a few feet for over TWO years.

The GATE is located just past the curve at the top of the stretch NOT back where you describe it or I have been standing at the wrong place for two years.

You have to love grandstanders who know racing from afar and not close up where it happens.

[Tom]

Shouldn't they be calling it "about" 6 furlongs?

[macguy]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

It is WELL KNOWN by anyone going to Hastings that since older horses began running 6 it was an ABOUT distance. Reported to all almost everyday. Since that change took place, I positioned my gate camera based upon a rough spot on the tarmac. NEVER had to move it as the gate varied only a few feet for over TWO years.

The GATE is located just past the curve at the top of the stretch NOT back where you describe it or I have been standing at the wrong place for two years.

You have to love grandstanders who know racing from afar and not close up where it happens.

I was not clear in my post.

When they first starting running the 6f races early last year the Gate was CLEARLY positioned INSIDE the 6.5f chute, to the point where there was practically no difference between the 6.5f and 6f races, the races may as well of been carded as 6.5f for all intents and purposes.

They currently place the gate at the tip of the 6.5f chute slightly ahead of what they were doing early last year.

When they used to run 6f under the previous starter (not Joe Gray) the gate was placed PASSED the stretch turn. This is a fact, because they used to have to move the gate to the infield (through a gap in the rail) after the start of the race.

The gate was previously in the chute when they were running 6f early last year (they were not required to move it at all), and now the gate only needs to be moved to the side when running 6f, because they are just at the tip of the chute.

I do not agree with you that it is well known that 6f races are known to be about 6f. If the 6f races are "about 6f" it should be reported in the racing form as a race that is run "about 6 furlongs." The interior tracks have no problem in reporting the about distances, so why should Hastings Park?


I have CLEARLY seen 3 different gate positions for the 6f races over the last two season, I can't possibly understand how you could disagree with this.

[46zilzal]

The GATE has NEVER been inside the 6.5 chute for a 6 furlong race. NOT once as I watched Carl drive it out to the point on the curve while Sam positioned into place under the guidance of Joe Grey.

Go to light pole 53 at the top of the lane: another reference point of the camera. IT IS NOWHERE NEAR THE CHUTE, never has been

[andymays]

This just in from Hastings...

Good Morning Andy,

Our run up distances are as follows:

- 6 Furlongs the run up is 96 FT
- 6 1/2 it is 24 Ft
- 1 1/16 Mile it is 20 Ft
- 1 1/8 Mile it is 30 ft

Cheers,
Kelly Grant, Marketing Manager
Hastings Racecourse
188 N. Renfrew St.
Vancouver, BC V5K 3N8

[macguy]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

The GATE has NEVER been inside the 6.5 chute for a 6 furlong race. NOT once as I watched Carl drive it out to the point on the curve while Sam positioned into place under the guidance of Joe Grey.

Oh well.

[46zilzal]

Joe Gray is very much a stickler for gate placement. When 6 f was only run the first several weeks of the season and then later only for two year olds, it was further down the stretch near where the 1 3/8 opening on the rail is located (B C Premier's is run from that point). I had a marker there too for the camera.

Last season they opened up 6 furlongs for older horses: track records fell but the OLD two year old position that far down the lane, limited the gate to 7 entrants tops as owners getting pp 8+ were scratching in mass as they would get hung wide into the clubhouse turn, so they moved it to the ABOUT distance in he middle of the season two years back.

[macguy]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Joe Gray is very much a stickler for gate placement. When 6 f was only run the first several weeks of the season and then later only for two year olds, it was further down the stretch near where the 1 3/8 opening on the rail is located (B C Premier's is run from that point). I had a marker there too for the camera.

Last season they opened up 6 furlongs for older horses: track records fell but the OLD two year old position that far down the lane, limited the gate to 7 entrants tops as owners getting pp 8+ were scratching in mass as they would get hung wide into the clubhouse turn, so they moved it to the ABOUT distance in he middle of the season two years back.

Ok, yes I agree with all of your above post.
My only problem is they did indeed move the starting gate back, but those races are still carded as 6f, the same as when they started the races at the opening on the rail.

My argument is simply that they should have carded the "new" 6f distance as about 6f, because there is a difference in gate placement. How that ties into this thread is there would be a significant difference in run up distance between the two 6f distances.

As Andy pointed out there is a 96ft run up for the 6f races, IMHO, that's pretty large. I am assuming that the 96ft run up is for the new 6f distance, and not the old "2 year old" 6f distance.

My problem with HST is that this gate position was changed, and looking back in the racing form past performances (prior to Recorded Run Up Distances) the average bettor would see nothing documented indicating that the position of the gate has been changed. All the races were simply carded as 6f.

I would argue that it is a huge deal that the gate was moved back to its current position. You mentioned in your post how much of a disadvantage an outside post is coming into the clubhouse turn with the old gate position.