Adding insult to injury. Why is this a signup at all? - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

andymays · 05-07-2009, 09:08 AM

This is a good example of the ridiculous IRS regulations regarding gambling winnings.

Not only is it a signup but it is also subject to withholding..

This is one of the tickets from the Twin Spires Super Hi-5 yesterday at Churchill and yes it is rediculous to make a bet like this if you're trying to win!

When we talk about fan appreciation day, why haven't the Tracks or TVG, or HRTV ever brought up the idea of a national petition to change this stuff. I would feel appreciated a lot more if the people that say they appreciate us did something besides dollar beers and hot dogs (heart attack and DUI on the way home). The bill brought up by NTRA doesn't go far enough.

How about HANA taking the lead and help in coordinating a national petition?

$1 Super Hi-5 - Ticket C
# 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
WT # 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10
Ticket Cost: $15,120.00 *** Winning 5-1-8-3-4 combination paid $15,509.20 (before taxes) ***

startngate · 05-07-2009, 09:28 AM

The Government is never going to eliminate the tax on income from gambling, so the best we can hope for is the Bill (H.R. 2140) introduced last month to Congress to get the withholding requirement taken out.

It's been tried before and hasn't gone anywhere since they got the limits raised to $5,000. Getting together some grass-roots support like a petition or a write your Congressman campaign couldn't hurt.

cj · 05-07-2009, 09:37 AM

This is already in progress, not via HANA but another group. There is a bill already drafted.

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=39121

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/lo...7/daily43.html

andymays · 05-07-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj

This is already in progress, not via HANA but another group. There is a bill already drafted.

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=39121

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/lo...7/daily43.html

This Bill doesn't go far enough!

You need a national petition for two reasons.

1. Politicians respond to potential votes or non-votes.

2. If HANA coordinated it through TVG and HRTV, and the Tracks, membership would increase 10 fold in a months time.

OTM Al · 05-07-2009, 09:57 AM

It is a very stupid bet, plus, to answer your question, the winning bet was $1. The other 15,119 were losers. That's why it is taxed.

andymays · 05-07-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTM Al

It is a very stupid bet, plus, to answer your question, the winning bet was $1. The other 15,119 were losers. That's why it is taxed.

I got that AL.

This is an extreme example to illustrate the absurdity of the way these things are calculated!

fmolf · 05-07-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

I got that AL.

This is an extreme example to illustrate the absurdity of the way these things are calculated!

it irks me that casino winnings get untaxed my dad won 17k playing let it ride and he brought his chips to the cashiers window in increments of less than 5k and he never had to report anything?why are we taxed immediately and you win at the table in a casino and no tax no irs form....its the casino lobby...very powerful!

OTM Al · 05-07-2009, 10:06 AM

Not really. Its a rule everyone should understand, thus making such a ticket structure the ridiculous thing here, not the law

andymays · 05-07-2009, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Not really. Its a rule everyone should understand, thus making such a ticket structure the ridiculous thing here, not the law

If someone puts 15k to win on an even money shot and wins why shouldn't that person be required to signup also?

I think the regulations as they currently stand are ridiculous!

andymays · 05-07-2009, 10:26 AM

One of the points I am suggesting with this is how often do Politicians do something just because it's the right thing to do?

Politicians respond to things that will get them votes or take away votes!

OTM Al · 05-07-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

If someone puts 15k to win on an even money shot and wins why shouldn't that person be required to signup also?

I think the regulations as they currently stand are ridiculous!

Yes, there are holes in the law. Under the law, an even money shot is not a signer ever because the law requires at least a $600 payout and at least 300-1 odds. Just by that, you can see it was fixed in the days of the $2 minimum bet.

If it's the law you are complaining about, it could stand to be improved, I would agree, but if it is the fact that whoever bought those tickets had to pay, then I have no pity for them as they should have know the rules going in.

andymays · 05-07-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Yes, there are holes in the law. Under the law, an even money shot is not a signer ever because the law requires at least a $600 payout and at least 300-1 odds. Just by that, you can see it was fixed in the days of the $2 minimum bet.

If it's the law you are complaining about, it could stand to be improved, I would agree, but if it is the fact that whoever bought those tickets had to pay, then I have no pity for them as they should have know the rules going in.

You are right Al, but my point is that this stuff has been going on forever and nobody from the racing industry (Tracks, TVG,HRTV) has ever used their forum to advance something that really helps the Horseplayer and by the way would really help them (Horseplayers churn)!

OTM Al · 05-07-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

You are right Al, but my point is that this stuff has been going on forever and nobody from the racing industry (Tracks, TVG,HRTV) has ever used their forum to advance something that really helps the Horseplayer and by the way would really help them (Horseplayers churn)!

It's a question of where they have to spend their political capital. Many tracks are constantly having to confront issues with their state and local governments simply to maintain the business. The withholding is a federal level law. There is no nationalization of tracks, so as such, they are ill suited to address such an issue. Further, the interstate gambling act always hangs over them. Anger the feds too much and you take a hit that you won't recover from. So it really isn't in their interests to pursue this, though be sure they would prefer the laws were changed as well. The potential benefit from that though simply does not outweigh the risk. Honestly, I think the idea of the churn is a bit overblown anyway. Some will come back, for sure, but I believe less than has been estimated.

As for ADWs, though they do help the players in some ways, I really see them as paracites in the system. They extract money for a service that really shouldn't be needed from them, but due to the mishmash of law, they can exist and do well for themselves. Why would they want to endanger their profits? Again a question of directing political capital to priority issues to maintain the business.

No, the law directly affects one group only, and that is the horseplayer. And that is where the onus for change should lie. Just like any other law, if enough citizens want it changed, then, theoretically at least...., it will get changed. This is where a group like HANA is needed. If the citizenry can gain enough momentum, then other players like the tracks can come in and help, because the will of the people will allow them to face far less risk than if they tried to make a unilateral move.

andymays · 05-07-2009, 11:11 AM

If HANA takes the lead on something like this, especially if the current bill fails, it has the potential to take HANA to 40,000 members is a couple short months!

HANA has to sell the concept to the Tracks, TVG, and HRTV!

OTM Al · 05-07-2009, 11:14 AM

Then write their leadership and express your feelings. Give them concrete ideas that can be acted on. Posting on a message board doesn't count