Very Quick Question - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

hotwir3 · 08-20-2007, 01:39 AM

Hi, I am seventeen and new into horse racing and became interested in it after watching all three triple crown races this year. I live in an urban setting so I am not exposed to horses or ranches at all. I do not know exactly why I enjoy watching horse racing so much, but who needs a reason? Today my friend and I were placing bets on the three races broadcasted at Del Mar on ESPN2, in which I lost $38. I understand pretty much all there is to betting (I've learned a lot from the fantasy bets on www.youbet.net) but I have just one thing that I do not understand. Without describing it let me just show you the example from this evening's Pacific Classic.

Ridden by Richard Migliore, Student Council covered 1¼ miles in 2:07.29 and paid $48.80, $31.80 and $20.60.

Now, I am very strong at math and I have an understanding for horse betting but I can NOT find any kind of pattern as to what these three numbers stand for or represent. Like, I understand what I am looking at when I see the trifecta, exacta(sp?) and superfecta results, but i cannot get a grasp on these numbers

. I know that the first number is for those that picked the horse to win, the second number for place, and the third number for show, but I can not figure out how they relate to betting. I have searched all over the internet and I can not find an explanation for these numbers.

An answer to this mystery would help me greatly and help me to gain a better understanding, THANK YOU

statik27 · 08-20-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotwir3

Hi, I am seventeen and new into horse racing and became interested in it after watching all three triple crown races this year. I live in an urban setting so I am not exposed to horses or ranches at all. I do not know exactly why I enjoy watching horse racing so much, but who needs a reason? Today my friend and I were placing bets on the three races broadcasted at Del Mar on ESPN2, in which I lost $38. I understand pretty much all there is to betting (I've learned a lot from the fantasy bets on www.youbet.net) but I have just one thing that I do not understand. Without describing it let me just show you the example from this evening's Pacific Classic.

Ridden by Richard Migliore, Student Council covered 1¼ miles in 2:07.29 and paid $48.80, $31.80 and $20.60.

Now, I am very strong at math and I have an understanding for horse betting but I can NOT find any kind of pattern as to what these three numbers stand for or represent. Like, I understand what I am looking at when I see the trifecta, exacta(sp?) and superfecta results, but i cannot get a grasp on these numbers

. I know that the first number is for those that picked the horse to win, the second number for place, and the third number for show, but I can not figure out how they relate to betting. I have searched all over the internet and I can not find an explanation for these numbers.

An answer to this mystery would help me greatly and help me to gain a better understanding, THANK YOU

Let me first say that I hope your friend is over 21, cause otherwise you shouldn't be betting online. When you turn 18 you can bet on site at the track or at an OTB (off track betting facility).

The parental advisory out of the way, let me answer your question.

the numbers 48.80 31.80 20.60 represent 2$ pay outs for Win,Place,and show. 2$ is the minimum you can bet on those 3 wagers. Just subtract 2$ from each payout and you'll get your net earnings for each bet.

OK so now let me give you a little introduction into the sport that you've stumbled into. I can only use my own experience to ease you into a very complicate endeavor. Here goes....

"There's something about the outside of a horse thats good for the inside of a man." - Winston Churchill (No relation to the churchill of churchill downs.)

That quote pretty much sums up what it is to be a fan of horse racing and I think in some ways it sums up why you like to watch it and don't know why, it just feels good.
Many people on this board are primarily handicapper's(bettor's) and they see each race as a way to profit. Which is fine, but for myself, I came to the ART of handicapping through my love of horse racing. I was simply born with the need to study this sport, and no I've never lived on a ranch or worked at a racetrack just like you.

I can't say why, but my mother can attest to the fact that I learned to read, because of the need to understand what pulled me to horses and not just horses, but racehorses. I guess everyone has that one thing thats in them from the start, and this was mine.

My best advice is to yes learn what handicapping is all about if thats what you want to do. But STUDY horse racing, become a student of it. Start at the begining. Find out what the 3 foundation lines of thoroughbreds are. Where did they come from. What that means in todays racehorses. Read everything. It will only HELP you make money wagering on horses.

And Above all stop reading this post right now and go to Youtude. Type in 1973 Belmont. Watch it yes, but listen to the annoucer, listen to the crowd.

That race represents the culmination of 200 years of breeding. Its a performance that trancends sports and even species. It's perfection dished out in two minutes and twenty four seconds.

If you decide that you like horse racing enough to take my advice and learn a little bit about ,not just todays racehorses and race personalities, but of the many years that have past. You will come back to the 1973 belmont at some point in the future and I'll lay even money, no matter how hard you think you are, it'll make you get just a little misty eyed. And Yes I realize that you weren't born at the time. But I know for a fact that this sport has a way of connecting itself generation to generation. I myself wasn't born until 1980, there hasn't even been a Triple Crown winner within my life time. But there's always hope.

statik

P.S. I realize that this might be a broader answer then you wanted, but as you read further into this forum you'll find that horse racing is on the cusp of some drastic changes. And it needs all the support it can get. If you have any questions just PM me.

kenwoodallpromos · 08-20-2007, 06:00 AM

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/insta...7-08-19&race=8
The amount listed for "mutuel pool" means that they do not print the exact amount bet in each category of individual win, place, and show pools. But each is individual and the total amount bet in each has the takeout subtracted, amout going back for each $2 bet figured, and the breakage taken out.
"Takeout" is the % the track removes that goes to the track, the state, and sometimes elsewhere. "Breakage" is the cents taken out so the payoff is made in increments of 5, 10, or 20 cents. Usually the state and track share that.

DJofSD · 08-20-2007, 10:09 AM

hotwir3, welcome to the board.

Regarding win, place and show pools, there is a tomb that if you can find it, will appeal to your mathematical bent and give you some insight into the minor pools. It is by William T Ziemba "Dr. Z's Beat the Racetrack." It is out of print but you should be able to find it on either eBay or a good used book reseller.

Also, learn this: the place horse is not the second best win horse.

Mike at A+ · 08-20-2007, 10:22 AM

The short answer to your question is that if you make a WIN bet, your horse MUST win the race in order for you to collect the first price you listed. If you make a PLACE bet, your horse MUST either win the race OR come in second in order for you to collect the second price you listed. And if you make a SHOW bet, your horse MUST be among the top 3 finishers in order for you to collect the third price you list.

If you bet SHOW and your horse wins the race, you still get the third price. If you bet WIN and your horse runs third, you rip up the ticket (or save it for the IRS to offset any big winnings thus lowering your taxes).

jotb · 08-20-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotwir3

Hi, I am seventeen and new into horse racing and became interested in it after watching all three triple crown races this year. I live in an urban setting so I am not exposed to horses or ranches at all. I do not know exactly why I enjoy watching horse racing so much, but who needs a reason? Today my friend and I were placing bets on the three races broadcasted at Del Mar on ESPN2, in which I lost $38. I understand pretty much all there is to betting (I've learned a lot from the fantasy bets on www.youbet.net) but I have just one thing that I do not understand. Without describing it let me just show you the example from this evening's Pacific Classic.

Ridden by Richard Migliore, Student Council covered 1¼ miles in 2:07.29 and paid $48.80, $31.80 and $20.60.

Now, I am very strong at math and I have an understanding for horse betting but I can NOT find any kind of pattern as to what these three numbers stand for or represent. Like, I understand what I am looking at when I see the trifecta, exacta(sp?) and superfecta results, but i cannot get a grasp on these numbers

. I know that the first number is for those that picked the horse to win, the second number for place, and the third number for show, but I can not figure out how they relate to betting. I have searched all over the internet and I can not find an explanation for these numbers.

An answer to this mystery would help me greatly and help me to gain a better understanding, THANK YOU

Is the reason why you don't understand these numbers is because there are 3 different payouts for 1 horse? If this is the case then it best can be understood quite easily. If you had bet the winning horse across the board meaning WPS you collect on each payout for the winning horse. If you had wanted to make a wager of $2 to win, place and show it would cost you a total of $6 but you would get paid for all 3 spots if the horse wins. If that horse finished second you would get paid for place $31.80 and show $20.60. If the horse finished 3rd then you would collect only 3rd place money $20.60.
If this is your problem then you should understand how it works now. If your problem is how do they arrived at these payoffs well then you will need a better explaination which has to do with mutual pool and how everything is broken down.

Joe

46zilzal · 08-20-2007, 02:53 PM

Each payout comes from a separate wagering pool. All the money bet on the winner (minus track take) is distributed back to all the ticket who wagered on the winner. This independent pool, is the only one you can estimate a payment from the odds listed since it is not dependent upon any other horse wagered.

All the money bet to place (minus track take) is distributed back to all the tickets who wagered on the winner to place and all those who wagered on the place horse to place.

All the money bet on show (minus track take) is distributed back to all the tickets who wagered on the winner to show and all those who wagered on the place horse to show, and all those who have tickets on the show horse to show.

The win pool is the largest and the show pool is the smallest. The largest pool is split the fewest ways and the smallest pool is split the most ways so price (99.9% of the time) goes DOWN from win to place to show. The odd time out is when someone dumps a huge bet in the show pool (called a bridge jumper trying to make pennies on the dollar on a "sure thing") and that horse does not come into the top three finishers. Then the board goes HIGHER in the show pool payouts.

hotwir3 · 08-20-2007, 03:17 PM

thank you all for your answers. I now understand my initial question and much more. I see that taking away $2 from $48 is $46 and Student Council was 23-1 odds. I see it now!

Concerning the "parental advisory", we were betting between each other and not with an online service. I made it so that we were both making bets at each other and it wasn't just one person playing casino and one person playing the gambler (That would give the person playing casino the advantage).

Thank you for telling me to look up that vid. I have seen a vid containing all three triple crown races from Secretariat's victory, but it is still amazing to watch none the less.

Thanks for the website as well, I'll check that out too.

I would also like to say that my first exposure to horse racing was Smarty Jones...which was actually in 04, and watching that upset at Belmont made first turned me on to the sport. Then of course the longshot in 05, Barbaro's heartbreak at the Preakness in 06 and now this year. So, before now I've only been into horseracing for those three days of the year for the triple crown races but now I have become more interested.

DJofSD · 08-20-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

I see that taking away $2 from $48 is $46 and Student Council was 23-1 odds. I see it now!

Yes, you always get your original bet ($2) back when you're cashing a ticket. The rest of the money is what the losers put into the wagering pool. You split that with the other bettors that argeed with you.

Knowing the formulae for computing the pay outs then being able to get the pay offs from looking at the tote board is not that difficult. Of coarse, the track does the win pool for you (and that's the easist one to do). The one piece of information you'll need is the rake -- the money the state takes off the top to pay for the overhead of running the races (purses, taxes, etc.) and the pay out to the other vested interests. Look in the racing form or some of the online sites like BRIS or Equibase for a table that has those values. You're looking for the straight bet withholdings. Get the pool total, take off the track take off the top (they always get paid first) then subtract out the amount bet correctly then whatever is left over is what gets divided amongst the winners. You'll then discover what breakage is all about.

If it is a minor pool it'll be a combination of the interests of all the horses that pay off for that bet -- either both the place horses or all 3 of the show horses. Try it. You'll find you can do it in your head quickly and get the right amount. Then you'll really understand the value of the tote board and why betting into the exotic pools is betting blindly. Sure, the track gives you some estimates but they're just that estimates.

Good luck in the future.