Big "name" coach theory - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Valuist · 10-09-2006, 01:06 PM

Ever notice how the big "names" never reach their previous glories? These can be guys who've been successful at the pro level before or big name, highly coveted college coaches looking to make it at the next level.

Remember how highly coveted Steve Spurrier was by the Redskins? How about Mike Ditka with the Saints? George Siefert with the Panthers? I remember in 2003 the Bears were between Nick Saban and Lovie Smith. Saban asked for $3 million/year while Smith ended up with considerably less. Good thing. How about Joe Gibbs? For that matter, how about Bill Parcells? The Cowboys may make the playoffs but does anyone think they have a shot at the Super Bowl? Even Dungy and Shottenheimer, while coaching solid teams, have not been able to win the big one. How about Dusty Baker, who the Cubs brought in at a big price tag following the 2002 World Series. We saw how well that worked out. And lets not forget Lou Piniella, who DID win the big one.......16 years ago in Cincinnati.

If the Yankees are smart, they won't pay a ton of money for Piniella, who really hasn't accomplished much since the 1990 World Series with the Reds.
Once the hunger is gone, the results go down.

kenwoodallpromos · 10-09-2006, 01:59 PM

I never considered Lou or Dusty to be very good, even their best years. I see you made mostly NFL references, for good reason; St Louis and Oakland Mgrs have both been in playoffs, and of course Torre too.
If multiple repeats in the Superbowl/ Series is all that matters in the free agency period, good luck looking for a dynasty!

Valuist · 10-09-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenwoodallpromos

I never considered Lou or Dusty to be very good, even their best years. I see you made mostly NFL references, for good reason; St Louis and Oakland Mgrs have both been in playoffs, and of course Torre too.
If multiple repeats in the Superbowl/ Series is all that matters in the free agency period, good luck looking for a dynasty!

First off, while Torre has been a great fit for the Yankees, what had he ever done as a manager before that? This wasn't a guy trying to re-capture lost glory; I don't think his Mets teams ever made the playoffs. When he was hired, he had something to prove.

Ken Macha? He's a nobody "name" wise so I wouldn't count him.

LaRussa fits my example perfectly. This guy is considered to be such a great manager; all his "micro-managing" moves; 3 pitching changes an inning; the whole "closer may not enter the game until the 9th inning" mentality. So what happens? He ends up burning out his bullpen by the post-season. Don't look for the Cards to be hoisting any World Series trophies this year. BTW, he last won the World Series in 1989.....that's even longer ago than Pinella winning it. They almost blew the division this year. That's tough to do, in that crap division when you consider they have Albert Pujols and Chris Carpenter on their team.

The point was that it isn't worth it to pay big money for coaches/managers on their 2nd/3rd go-around. Ask the Knicks about that one.

Pace Cap'n · 10-09-2006, 06:31 PM

Barry Switzer. Jimmy Johnson.

Valuist · 10-09-2006, 08:23 PM

Switzer is debateable. Jimmy had everything in place. My 15 YO daughter could've won the Super Bowl with that Cowboys talent.

As for Jimmy, definitely in Dallas. But what about Miami? I seem to remember they never went far in the playoffs and I believe he got beat 61-7 in his final game. By the time he went to Miami, he was more interested in his boat than the Dolphins.

There is one obvious candidate IF he can finish business: Jim Leyland.

But there aren't many.

Pace Cap'n · 10-09-2006, 10:10 PM

Leyland is noteworthy, and hopefully he gets to the series, only to lose to the Cardinals. I've spent much time over the years trying to decide if LaRussa is a good manager or not. The next few days might tell.

Barry and Jimmy are the only coaches with an NCAA championship and a Super Bowl title, as far as I know.

Valuist · 10-10-2006, 10:19 AM

A couple more who've tried the pro level and failed but are successful once again at the college level: Pitino and Calipari.

JPinMaryland · 10-10-2006, 11:10 AM

Vermeil breaks the mold. Lou Holtz had a lot of success in different places. Lefty Drizell in basketball.

There's probably a lot more "failures" that you can name, but that's prolly only because there are so many teams out there the odds are against you.

KingChas · 10-10-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPinMaryland

There's probably a lot more "failures" that you can name, but that's prolly only because there are so many teams out there the odds are against you.

I think the main problem for the coaches is the motivation factor.I'd be a lot more motivated (college) trying to earn millions than after I had made the millions.Mindset of todays athletes.Boys to Men?How do you as a coach control or motivate a person that is richer than you? I think thats why Carroll , Paterno,Pitino etc. prefer college coaching more so than dealing with a Pro Athlete. Mike K. got a taste of that.

rastajenk · 10-10-2006, 03:16 PM

Plus, in college you get to pick (recurit) your team; in the pros, it gets picked (drafted) for you.

Pace Cap'n · 10-22-2006, 10:08 AM

Was very surprised to hear on last night's broadcast that LaRussa was the third winningest manager in all of baseball--trailing only Connie Mack and John McGraw. He could pass McGraw in five or six years.

Connie Mack with 3,731 wins--now that just might be the most unassailable record in all of sports.

kenwoodallpromos · 10-22-2006, 12:04 PM

McGraw had a much better % and many more titles. Mack was 50 years managing, about 74-75 victories per year in 154 games seasons FYI.

Pace Cap'n · 10-22-2006, 12:32 PM

Yeah, it does help to own the team.

Valuist · 10-23-2006, 04:04 PM

The Cubs, mired in almost 100 years of losing, ONE incidence of back to back over .500 seasons IN THE LAST 40 YEARS will try to go against my theory. And the rumors after the season were that Piniella would go to the Yanks. The Yankees and Cubs......doesn't get any more opposite in terms of success over the past century. One made the right decision, and one a wrong decision.

Stillriledup · 01-18-2016, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valuist

Switzer is debateable. Jimmy had everything in place. My 15 YO daughter could've won the Super Bowl with that Cowboys talent.

As for Jimmy, definitely in Dallas. But what about Miami? I seem to remember they never went far in the playoffs and I believe he got beat 61-7 in his final game. By the time he went to Miami, he was more interested in his boat than the Dolphins.

There is one obvious candidate IF he can finish business: Jim Leyland.

But there aren't many.

This is incorrect. Dallas was a mess when Jimmy got there, nothing was in place.