stamina diluting out of the breed

[46zilzal]

I had a letter to the editor of the Blood Horse printed May 12, 1990
(Unbridled's Derby issue) and the content of that note is MORE than
germane today. The T-bred breeding industry is breeding SPEED to
SPEED and forgetting what it takes to keep stamina (and soundness) in
the progeny.

When I first started following the races, BOTH the Sunset Hdcp and the
Jockey Club Gold Cup were both two miles on the dirt. Here was a
"graded" platform to allow an adequate assessment of stamina ON the
race track. When breeding options came around, the prospective
breeding choices had a forum of racing experiences to review in order
to get that balance between the two wings of Dr. Roman's Speed/Stamina
sire scale.

Over the past 20 years, just about all the DIRT stamina races have
been shortened. We are now wtihout a proving ground for stamina.

Speed and precosiousness go together, so it is a "quick" response from
a breeding. Stamina (look at cross country skiers in the Olympics waho
are mostly 30 or above) takes time to evolve and requires "patience."
The Ascot Gold Cup in England is 20 furlongs: no wonder they breed
stayers.

If stamina does not have a proiving ground, where is a breeder to go
to find it other than turf sires? As these animals get lighter and
lighter boned, we are going to spell the end of the breed unless
something is done to either provide the forum for stamina to be
proven on the track, or re-introduce Arabian blood back in the breed.

[chickenhead]

good post

[dccprez]

Nice piece.

[JPinMaryland]

maybe...but if all this were true how's come track records aren't falling every year like they do in track/field, swimming, marathons, etc.

Not sure what is going on here. Horses run less, they run shorter distances, they break down more often, and they arent getting faster. Somethign wrong with this equation..

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by JPinMaryland

maybe...but if all this were true how's come track records aren't falling every year like they do in track/field, swimming, marathons, etc.

I think you missed the point. When you breed for a single characteristic, speed, it maxes out. Law of diminishing returns ring a bell??

[kenwoodallpromos]

Stamina will be more considered when it is more profitable for breeders to do so.
If I am not mistaken, shorter stakes races pay less in most cases.
The incentive now is to keep the horses running year-round and producing entertainment and fill races.
Interesting you mention Arabians- In Ca, most Arabians do not race year-round.

[JPinMaryland]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

I think you missed the point. When you breed for a single characteristic, speed, it maxes out. Law of diminishing returns ring a bell??

this may be true. but then why not the same thing in track and field? Is it a question of a closed gene pool in horse racing vs a gene pool in human events that continues to expand?

Also, on a slightly different note. They can breed stamina back into the herd presumably. BUt what about stoutness? The ability to run 20x a year. Can this be bred as well?

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by JPinMaryland

Also, on a slightly different note. They can breed stamina back into the herd presumably. BUt what about stoutness? The ability to run 20x a year. Can this be bred as well?

yes. Arabian bloodstock. Where the breed originated. but they won't because of the $$$$$$'s lost.

[dccprez]

Setting aside the fact/concept/idea/proof that it is the dam that imparts stamina and soundness to the foal (let's just get that out of the way at least for the moment...)

Of the horses that were recently retired to stud (let's define "recently" as within the last 10 years PLUS AP Indy, Thunder Gulch and any other prominent stallions you can come up with between 90' and 95"), which of them might/should/could/you-would-think impart improved stamina and/or soundness back into the gene-pool, i.e.; breed for Distance/Later-maturing vs. Speed/precociousness.

I have some possible candidates (working from memory here while boddged down at the office);

Point Given, Monarchos, Aptitude, Lemon Drop Kid, Behrens, Victory Gallop, Unshaded...

Lots of others pop to mind...

[RXB]

Even those sires are not true stayer sires. When I think of stamina-- and I suspect 46Z has the same concept-- we're thinking of sires whose progeny frequently prefer 12f or even longer. Tom Rolfe, Stage Door Johnny, where have you gone?

I think they'd have to import some blood from Europe, NZ/Aus, etc., to really start bringing true stamina back into North American racing.

It's sad to see how cheap and inferior our racing product has become in the past two decades.

[46zilzal]

or a Run the Gauntlet

[dccprez]

Originally Posted by RXB

Even those sires are not true stayer sires. When I think of stamina-- and I suspect 46Z has the same concept-- we're thinking of sires whose progeny frequently prefer 12f or even longer. Tom Rolfe, Stage Door Johnny, where have you gone?

I think they'd have to import some blood from Europe, NZ/Aus, etc., to really start bringing true stamina back into North American racing.

It's sad to see how cheap and inferior our racing product has become in the past two decades.

You're wholly correct RXZ.

I was, admittedly, "reaching" and/or "compromising" somewhat. To wit;
My basis was that there seem to be many, many more sires that stand out as 8-8.5-9 Furlong runners. I was trying to "nudge" this to the 10F "Classic" distance (in that I think that 12F, while much more desirable, may already be out of reach).

So based on that criteria (which I should have explained better in the first place), I was interested in others opinions of sires that have a good/better chance to impart 10F staying ability. In essence, trying to "Work with What We Got".

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by dccprez

So based on that criteria (which I should have explained better in the first place), I was interested in others opinions of sires that have a good/better chance to impart 10F staying ability. In essence, trying to "Work with What We Got".

you won't get stamina from sires of the short routes.....it is not there

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by JPinMaryland

this may be true. but then why not the same thing in track and field? Is it a question of a closed gene pool in horse racing vs a gene pool in human events that continues to expand?

Also, on a slightly different note. They can breed stamina back into the herd presumably. BUt what about stoutness? The ability to run 20x a year. Can this be bred as well?

Alot of interesting things happening here. Of course, I have a number of the participants in this thread on ignore, so I can't really follow completely (On the other hand, history has shown that it would be baseless gibberish.)

I think to really discuss/comprehend these issues one needs to actually get one's (FAT) ass over to the barns and see how they do things over there. Hang out around Tbreds for a bit. See how they live. See how they train up to a race. See how they recover after a race. (Reconcile the thoretical BOUNCE with the actual --whether the former exists or otherwise) See how fragile they really are. See if they're really so incredibly one dimensional.

Not every horse is built to make it to the races.
Many never even make it to the track for training.
Many break down from overtraining (not racing).
So, those horses today that are racing 2x a month might actually be
training the equivalent of 4 races a month. Some trainers can't get it through their heads that going fast in the morning is not really representative of anything else.

Track and Field: sprinters are muscular; long distance runners are gaunt.

Now, while some sprinters and routers are actually born that way, the majority are probably developed (as a result of training). Predisposition acknowledged.

Tbred sprinters are usually big and muscular. As a very nice exception to the rule, we can look at Bold Forbes. Slight, by sprinter standards, this one dimensional speedball was 'taught' to sustain his speed by Laz Barrera. Daily, long, slow gallops on the training track allowed Forbes to stretch out and win the Derby and BELMONT.

When it comes to this sort of thing, I'm with Watson and the behaviorists.

NURTURE over NATURE.

Of course, here, we basically take a point and stretch it to its most absurd extension. Never mind, we've never actually being around the subject we're discussing.

[46zilzal]

still true today: can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Forget John Henry when I say that however.