Rule breaking costs other horsemen.. - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Grits · 01-15-2016, 02:51 PM

(In order that this may not be lost or co-mingled with the lasix thread.)

FYI, gentlemen. Today, Frank Angst from the Blood Horse writes a piece on trainer positives and their problems including comments from Tom Schell.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...other-horsemen

chadk66 · 01-15-2016, 03:02 PM

this is exactly why, unless there are some serious changes, I will never train horses again.

ultracapper · 01-15-2016, 05:31 PM

I don't like that they have different rules for different drugs. I mean, that they classify them differently, implying that penalties for positives for one drug may be different than for another drug. There are rules for each and every drug. Break any of them, pay the most severe of penalties.

SuperPickle · 01-15-2016, 05:34 PM

Ok I'll preface this with saying Kirk Ziadie is awful and should never, ever never, never ever get a trainers license again.

However I have trouble expressing a ton of sympathy for Tom Schell. I know Tom posts here and he's a great guy so I'm really not trying to offend.

But that being said WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU CLAIM A HORSE OFF KIRK ZIADIE? Everyone short of Helen Keller knows the guy is giving the horses something illegal. Then why on earth would you purchase these horses?

I'm sure anyone can dig up one or two horses claimed off super trainers that people made money off of. But we all know for everyone one of those we can also find 5-10 that went into the crapper.

Everyday people claim off these guys and everyday I'm simply mystified on what the angle is.

CryingForTheHorses · 01-15-2016, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

Ok I'll preface this with saying Kirk Ziadie is awful and should never, ever never, never ever get a trainers license again.

However I have trouble expressing a ton of sympathy for Tom Schell. I know Tom posts here and he's a great guy so I'm really not trying to offend.

But that being said WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU CLAIM A HORSE OFF KIRK ZIADIE? Everyone short of Helen Keller knows the guy is giving the horses something illegal. Then why on earth would you purchase these horses?

I'm sure anyone can dig up one or two horses claimed off super trainers that people made money off of. But we all know for everyone one of those we can also find 5-10 that went into the crapper.

Everyday people claim off these guys and everyday I'm simply mystified on what the angle is.

I'm not looking for sympathy!!..Whatever gave you that idea..You need to read my comments!!...This bloodhorse writer called me one afternoon trying to goat me into saying bad things about whats going on with Kirk..I did tell him claiming horses are damaged goods..He was intent on trying to get me to say a lot of bad about Kirk..I didnt even know he was going to quote me as I told him I wasn't interested in his story.This is between the state and Kirk..AND to look elsewhere for his story!!

SuperPickle · 01-15-2016, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

I'm not looking for sympathy!!..Whatever gave you that idea..You need to read my comments!!...This bloodhorse writer called me one afternoon trying to goat me into saying bad things about whats going on with Kirk..I did tell him claiming horses are damaged goods..He was intent on trying to get me to say a lot of bad about Kirk..I didnt even know he was going to quote me as I told him I wasn't interested in his story.This is between the state and Kirk..AND to look elsewhere for his story!!

All fair points and you were a lot nicer about Kirk that most people on here would be.

But I am curious. Why claim from him? Was it an owner's idea? Did the horse have a condition that was coming up in a book? I'm honestly curious about the angle.

Grits · 01-15-2016, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

I'm not looking for sympathy!!..Whatever gave you that idea..You need to read my comments!!...This bloodhorse writer called me one afternoon trying to goat me into saying bad things about whats going on with Kirk..I did tell him claiming horses are damaged goods..He was intent on trying to get me to say a lot of bad about Kirk..I didnt even know he was going to quote me as I told him I wasn't interested in his story.This is between the state and Kirk..AND to look elsewhere for his story!!

Tom, I didn't read anything into your comments other than what was written. What I did find interesting? Why did the writer go back three years to find a horse you claimed from Zaidie when surely there were many more recent claims? I found this quite odd.

CryingForTheHorses · 01-15-2016, 06:45 PM

My owner and I both liked the horse and took a shot!..No angle,Things could have gone the other way and we may have won several.In the claiming game,You hope to get a half decent horse that can make a few bucks.Yes there were races for him! As for the bloodhorse writer saying we never hit the board is totaly wrong as we did have 1 2nd and 2 3rds from 7 starts..

CryingForTheHorses · 01-15-2016, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grits

Tom, I didn't read anything into your comments other than what was written. What I did find interesting? Why did the writer go back three years to find a horse you claimed from Zaidie when surely there were many more recent claims? I found this quite odd.

This horse had a positive from the race we claimed him from..I was told this by the writer as I asked him the same question!

Stillriledup · 01-15-2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

All fair points and you were a lot nicer about Kirk that most people on here would be.

But I am curious. Why claim from him? Was it an owner's idea? Did the horse have a condition that was coming up in a book? I'm honestly curious about the angle.

I agree with your points about claiming from KZ I was shocked a sharp guy like Tom would claim from that guy. Sounds like the owner was impressed with the video or PPs of the horse and just 'didn't know the game'. Live and learn.

Grits · 01-15-2016, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

This horse had a positive from the race we claimed him from..I was told this by the writer as I asked him the same question!

Tom, being quoted by this writer? I would have just one more short conversation with him. Or better yet, I'd have it with his magazine's publisher.

HalvOnHorseracing · 01-16-2016, 10:10 PM

In my conversations with trainers, I've made the exact same comment. The backside is a really small community. I can't believe everybody doesn't know who is looking to gain an edge. Why do you let the trainers you know are looking to gain an edge get away with it? Why would you accept some blanket indictment of you and the sport when you know damn well it is a small percentage of the fraternity that is giving a bad name? And the answers are not just as simple as, there is a code of silence.

That is some of it. There is still some sort of historical stigma with being branded a rat. And there is a fear that once you open the door, everybody starts ratting on everybody for even non-chemical offenses. There is also a sense that it is far too easy to get revenge on another trainer. If you've been on the backside there are long periods when the place is all but empty. How easy would it be in some stable areas for someone to plant a vial or a syringe as retribution and place an anonymous call to the stewards? Finally, some trainers don't see it as their job to be enforcers. It's up to the stewards and the commission to find the scofflaws.

It happens in a lot of professions. Whether it is real of perceived, there is a fear of being ostracized by your peers and badmouthed to potential owners. I would also offer that it is rare for the enforcing authorities to be proactive. Even in Kirk Zaidie's case, everything was related to a post race test. It's easy to put all the blame on the trainers, but how many racetracks install or require video cameras? How many have professional investigators are available? How many require dispensing all meds from a single pharmacy, with complete records on sales and use, and regular audits? How often are they conducting random, unannounced inspections of stables and trainer offices? How often do they require drug tests on employees in an effort to minimize environmental contamination? Clean trainers should welcome the effort to identify the bad apples.

Kirk Zaidie gave himself absolution that holds no water. He cheated, he got caught and no amount of apology lets him off the hook. I suppose there are always going to be bad guys, and they deserve all the blame they get for cheating, but there are things track management and authorities can do to try to keep some of these events from ever happening. They won't catch them all, but it would be a step in the right direction

thespaah · 01-16-2016, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grits

(In order that this may not be lost or co-mingled with the lasix thread.)

FYI, gentlemen. Today, Frank Angst from the Blood Horse writes a piece on trainer positives and their problems including comments from Tom Schell.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...other-horsemen

There are two reasons why I think the penalties for doping horses should be draconian. One, it hurts the sport and the other competitors as well as the wagering public. And most importantly, such acts are detrimental to the health and well being of the animals.
These bastards should be stripped of their licenses and thrown under a full loaded Terex Titan dump truck. A bus is too light.

thespaah · 01-16-2016, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadk66

this is exactly why, unless there are some serious changes, I will never train horses again.

I don't blame you one iota

thespaah · 01-16-2016, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

I'm not looking for sympathy!!..Whatever gave you that idea..You need to read my comments!!...This bloodhorse writer called me one afternoon trying to goat me into saying bad things about whats going on with Kirk..I did tell him claiming horses are damaged goods..He was intent on trying to get me to say a lot of bad about Kirk..I didnt even know he was going to quote me as I told him I wasn't interested in his story.This is between the state and Kirk..AND to look elsewhere for his story!!

ALL claimers are considered damaged goods?