Scratches...can HANA help?

[cato]

How about a new project for the HANA - require that scratches be turned in by 7 pm the night before races with a weather/surface exception that if the turf course is "off" (turf to dirt) or the dirt goes to "off" (sloppy, muddy, etc.), they can scratch the morning of the race.

And failing that how about getting scratches in EARLY on the day of the races...this stuff on the east coast where numerous scratches show up about an hour before the races seriously sucks.

[Tom]

You can't fix stupid.

[cato]

Admittedly it's hard to fix with individuals but with systems and procedures its possible to do throgh diligence and diplomacy... although there would be max push-back.

My own view is to decide what we want/need that is reasonable and doable and if the tracks don't give it we simply stop betting for a week and see if it gets their attention.

[JustRalph]

HANA has been down that road before. They got all kinds of promises and it lasted about two weeks.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by cato

How about a new project for the HANA - require that scratches be turned in by 7 pm the night before races with a weather/surface exception that if the turf course is "off" (turf to dirt) or the dirt goes to "off" (sloppy, muddy, etc.), they can scratch the morning of the race.

And failing that how about getting scratches in EARLY on the day of the races...this stuff on the east coast where numerous scratches show up about an hour before the races seriously sucks.

That would require horsemen and tracks to want to help out the gamblers. Good luck with that.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by cato

How about a new project for the HANA - require that scratches be turned in by 7 pm the night before races with a weather/surface exception that if the turf course is "off" (turf to dirt) or the dirt goes to "off" (sloppy, muddy, etc.), they can scratch the morning of the race.

And failing that how about getting scratches in EARLY on the day of the races...this stuff on the east coast where numerous scratches show up about an hour before the races seriously sucks.

Scratch time is typically the afternoon before the race. If not, it is 8 AM the day of. When more horses are wanting out of a race than the betting props allow for, the horses are "stuck".
At that point, it is management and the state vets that wait until the last minute to announce that horses are out. It is not the horsemen. Horses are not being treated with lasix 3-4 hours out or whatever each state mandates and being scratched an hour out in 99% of the cases.

Except for the rare injury or accident, or track condition change, there is no excuse whatsoever for scratches being announced 1 hour out.

[cato]

It's standard operating procedure on the East coast.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by cato

It's standard operating procedure on the East coast.

Having spent my entire career on the east coast, I am well aware. And I do feel the gamblers pain. It is ridiculous. But my point is, that guidelines are in place for that to not happen and it was not always like that.

How it got to the absurdity it did, is directly on management. Of course, once they show how lenient they have become, you have trainers pushing that leniency.

I completely agree that it needs to be cleaned up.

[cato]

Thanks for the explanation.

So, HANA, how about it?

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by cato

How about a new project for the HANA - require that scratches be turned in by 7 pm the night before races with a weather/surface exception that if the turf course is "off" (turf to dirt) or the dirt goes to "off" (sloppy, muddy, etc.), they can scratch the morning of the race.

And failing that how about getting scratches in EARLY on the day of the races...this stuff on the east coast where numerous scratches show up about an hour before the races seriously sucks.

Before I attempt to answer your question - some relevant background info first:

Let's go back in time to 2008 - when horseplayers had to hunt for scratches and changes info from many different places... track websites, data providers, ADWs, etc.

Back then I'd sometimes pick up the phone and call the racing office of tracks I was playing that day...

"Are you on the turf or off?"

(And sometimes even THEY didn't know.)

Here's a link to a thread that tells the story of what it was like back then:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=43800

April 2009 - HANA met with Equibase at their headquarters in Lexington, KY. One of the ideas kicked around during the very first meetng was creating a single place on the internet where not just players (but everybody in the industry) could go to get constantly updated scratches and changes info as it became available. Once the seed for the concept had been planted and the "Can we do this?" part was behind us... The "how, who, and what" was worked out over follow up meetings and phone calls. To their credit, Equibase took a horseplayer suggestion and made it into a reality.

October 2009 - The first phase of the system went "live" that fall. Link to a Blood-Horse article here:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ow-on-equibase

Once the system went live - one of the more maddening things (at least to me) was track management at some track purposely refusing to participate. Link to a paceadvantage thread about that here:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=64622

But things gradually got sorted out. As it became evident that some tracks were refusing to participate (NYRA among them) Equibase began using their own data entry personnel to get the job done. (Not sure if it's still that way today. But I do know that's the way it was being done as late as November, 2012.)

May 2012 - One of the things I noticed about the system as it existed at that time was that sometimes I'd go to play a pick3 or pick4 only to have the ticket I was attempting to submit be rejected by my ADW because it contained one or more runners that had been scratched from the tote system in one of the later legs of the multi-race sequence. (Yet a quick check of the Equibase system told me those same runners were not yet been scratched - but would later be scratched as the horses for that leg of the multi-race sequence made their way onto the track for the post parade.)

So I recontacted Equibase. It took a number of emails and conference calls before I was able to convince them that fixing this by robotically parsing the tote for fresh scratches would improve the system from its then current state to about as close to 100% accuracy as was humanly possible.

And once again, to their credit, Equibase took a horseplayer suggestion and ran with it. They improved system accuracy by robotically parsing the tote - and auto scratching horses that had been picked up from the tote as fresh scratches.

Here's a link to a paceadvantage thread where that part of the system was discussed:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=99084

Sept 2014 - The most recent addition to the Equibase Scratches and Changes system was reporting of horses that show up on race day with the ultimate equipment change (gelded.) I know that not all of the data providers are parsing this info from the XML yet. (But I'm confident all of them will be given some time.)

I wanted to post some of the relevant background info because I've been involved with this project from the beginning. (It's also kind of cool to look back and see how the project has evolved from those early beginnings.)

Ok, the question was asked:

Originally Posted by cato

Thanks for the explanation.

So, HANA, how about it?

Please understand it's not up to Equibase or HANA (or me for that matter.)

It's up to the decision makers (track management, horsemen, state regulators, etc.) at each individual racing jurisdiction.

That said, I will at least ask. (And post a follow up once I know more.)

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Before I attempt to answer your question - some relevant background info first:

Let's go back in time to 2008 - when horseplayers had to hunt for scratches and changes info from many different places... track websites, data providers, ADWs, etc.

Back then I'd sometimes pick up the phone and call the racing office of tracks I was playing that day...

"Are you on the turf or off?"

(And sometimes even THEY didn't know.)

Here's a link to a thread that tells the story of what it was like back then:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=43800

April 2009 - HANA met with Equibase at their headquarters in Lexington, KY. One of the ideas kicked around during the very first meetng was creating a single place on the internet where not just players (but everybody in the industry) could go to get constantly updated scratches and changes info as it became available. Once the seed for the concept had been planted and the "Can we do this?" part was behind us... The "how, who, and what" was worked out over follow up meetings and phone calls. To their credit, Equibase took a horseplayer suggestion and made it into a reality.

October 2009 - The first phase of the system went "live" that fall. Link to a Blood-Horse article here:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ow-on-equibase

Once the system went live - one of the more maddening things (at least to me) was track management at some track purposely refusing to participate. Link to a paceadvantage thread about that here:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=64622

But things gradually got sorted out. As it became evident that some tracks were refusing to participate (NYRA among them) Equibase began using their own data entry personnel to get the job done. (Not sure if it's still that way today. But I do know that's the way it was being done as late as November, 2012.)

May 2012 - One of the things I noticed about the system as it existed at that time was that sometimes I'd go to play a pick3 or pick4 only to have the ticket I was attempting to submit be rejected by my ADW because it contained one or more runners that had been scratched from the tote system in one of the later legs of the multi-race sequence. (Yet a quick check of the Equibase system told me those same runners were not yet been scratched - but would later be scratched as the horses for that leg of the multi-race sequence made their way onto the track for the post parade.)

So I recontacted Equibase. It took a number of emails and conference calls before I was able to convince them that fixing this by robotically parsing the tote for fresh scratches would improve the system from its then current state to about as close to 100% accuracy as was humanly possible.

And once again, to their credit, Equibase took a horseplayer suggestion and ran with it. They improved system accuracy by robotically parsing the tote - and auto scratching horses that had been picked up from the tote as fresh scratches.

Here's a link to a paceadvantage thread where that part of the system was discussed:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=99084

Sept 2014 - The most recent addition to the Equibase Scratches and Changes system was reporting of horses that show up on race day with the ultimate equipment change (gelded.) I know that not all of the data providers are parsing this info from the XML yet. (But I'm confident all of them will be given some time.)

I wanted to post some of the relevant background info because I've been involved with this project from the beginning. (It's also kind of cool to look back and see how the project has evolved from those early beginnings.)

Ok, the question was asked:

Please understand it's not up to Equibase or HANA (or me for that matter.)

It's up to the decision makers (track management, horsemen, state regulators, etc.) at each individual racing jurisdiction.

That said, I will at least ask. (And post a follow up once I know more.)

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

.

Wow. That's great. I have never heard of HANA . I left the game as a trainer in 2001 so maybe that is the reason.
I think I can help explain why some of these time sensitive events occur later than they should. While it has been over 10 years now, the tracks ways of doing things crawls at a snails pace as far as positive change goes, so my guess is very little has changed. I do not have the time now, but will get back here and address my opinion of why some of these events take place , or don't, until much later than they should.
Hopefully later today. Ha HA, just like the track announcements. Can't believe I just typed that.

[Ruffian1]

Sorry for the delay. Hopefully this will provide some insight.

I speak in terms of Md., Del. Park, Monmouth, etc. from experience but from what I have been told over the years by racing office workers that worked all over the place is that it is pretty much the same everywhere to their knowledge.

On or Off the turf in Md. was always decided before 9 AM unless of an odd storm that hit later that morning. This was because the early vans from Bowie, Pimlico or private vans (if we were racing at Laurel for instance), were going to be leaving for Laurel shortly thereafter( depending on post time of course). They had to leave early so the horses in the early races could get into the receiving barn to be treated for lasix 4 hours before the post time of each horses race. Horsemen would not want to ship their horses if they were not going to run. So it was typically announced over the loud speaker about 8:30 if races were on or off the turf that day.

Changes , like gelding, blks. on or off, a new trainer or owner, etc.( program changes) MUST be declared at time of entry, typically 2 days prior. And while sometimes something is missed, my guess is, about 98% of the time, it is not. Failure to not note the changes of the entry has a penalty of racing without the change of equipment, or being forced to scratch. These are in place to keep would be trainers from possibly pulling a fast one. The decision to be forced to not race with the change or be scratched is up to the Stewards.

So you can see that the info that bettors so crave in order to properly handicap is available in almost all cases, by no later than 9:30 AM, except for the late scratches.

Before lasix was allowed, scratch time was 8AM the day of the race. Once lasix was allowed and other publications like the pp style program, etc. evolved the printers for those publications begged for more time to print, so the day before scratch time started, usually 3pm or thereabouts.

The rules of racing state(or used to as of 2001) that a triple and I assume a super race must be 9 horses or more or you could not scratch your horse. Daily Doubles were 8 horse fields. 12 horse fields could have up to 3 scratches in them for triple races, but if 4 or more came in, all the horses were "stuck" meaning wishing to scratch but the scratch had not yet been granted). When you scratch a horse there is an excuse line for the reason for the scratch. Leave it blank and if you are stuck, they will make you run. In most cases horsemen had a reason like "fever, treated with antibiotic " or coughing or foot abscess, or the classic of them all, "off feed" or whatever. The problem with that and the 3 pm the day before post time was that the state vets were busy monitoring the races if there was racing that day, or they were not around on a dark day. So, everything had to wait until the next morning when the state vets made their rounds to watch each race day horse jog in the shed or the road to make sure they were sound enough to race that day. This was done to protect the public from betting on a horse that would be scratched late as well as the safety of the jocks, horse, other horses, etc. It took state vets a couple of hours to work through an entire barn areas. If I was wanting my horse scratched , I would have to discuss that with the state vet that morning. Once they discussed the stuck horses with all the trainers, they took their findings to the Stewards .
So it all had to be sorted out by the Stewards and that took time. Now, the EASY remedy for all that was to pay one of the 3 state vets that Md. employed extra money to get this handled that afternoon or 1st thing in the morning. Instead, they made more work for the the state vets but they were not compensated to my knowledge for the extra work within their work day.

Getting back to the announcing of changes, etc. the person responsible to get those announcements out , at least inn Md. started their day about 2 hours before post time. Now they could have come in earlier but they would not be paid for it. So where is the incentive to get this info out? Also, whoever said they won't post it twice is either not being paid to do it at all and the work was forced on them, or they need to be fired immediately because their attitude is awful, or better still, they need to be educated as to who drives the payroll of management.


At first, most of this was handled early and very well. Every new broom sweeps clean right? But over the years it has slipped to the point of absurdity. Had it slipped in a way that affected the unnecessary shipping of horses, the horseman's rep would have put a stop to it. Had it become too costly for management , they would have put a stop to it. So it ended up affecting the party with the least say, which sadly is the same group that without them, we would all have to go home, that being, the handicapper.

So the clear and honest answer is that the only people responsible for getting this info out is track management. And, it is easy for me to say but all they have to do is spend a little bit of money to make it right. All the rules are in place when it comes to protecting the public from how the horsemen must act, believe me. Back in the 70's protecting the public and the integrity of the game was all over my trainers test I had to take before becoming an asst. trainer . Once upon a time, it really did matter. My assumption is that the profit margin became very tight for management over the years as competition rose and the people with the quietest voice usually ended up on the short end. Just a guess, but it makes sense too me.

Now it is unfair of me to simply say, management is to blame for everything. They are not. But IMO they are for what we are talking about. And also unfair to say, spend more money and get this right. And while they are at it they can stop charging for parking, admission, and generic programs, lower the takeout, and reduce the costs at the eatery's, some of which have the audacity to call their product food, and several more that might take me another minute to come up with.

I do not see their bottom line but if I did, I am positive I could reallocate funds to make it a much better product. And when I say this, I speak mainly about Maryland racing, which was my main stabling area for my entire career. Without a doubt I could improve it by leaps and bounds quickly, but that would require the owner to WANT it improved. From what I have seen, I do not feel that a willingness to improve exists. It would also require a willingness on my part and I have a business to run.

If Frank De Francis had lived longer, he was well on his way to creating what would have been the premier experience for the bettor. He had a huge passion for the handicapper and fully understood exactly who REALLY ran the show. He impressed that upon me back in the day and I suppose I get my passion on the subject from him. I was lucky enough to sit with him at many meetings on Bute and lasix before he became the owner of Md. tracks. I was very fortunate that he befriended me, with such an age gap. What a truly great vision he had, and again, he loved the fans. Such a shame .

I hope this has helped shed some light on the subject . Thank you for all you do and feel free to follow up if you think I can help.

[Fingal]

Changes , like gelding, blks. on or off, a new trainer or owner, etc.( program changes) MUST be declared at time of entry, typically 2 days prior. And while sometimes something is missed, my guess is, about 98% of the time, it is not. Failure to not note the changes of the entry has a penalty of racing without the change of equipment, or being forced to scratch. These are in place to keep would be trainers from possibly pulling a fast one. The decision to be forced to not race with the change or be scratched is up to the Stewards.

Well...not if you race at Del Mar except for the geldings bit.

On overnights I always go through the notes section afterwards as you find some interesting stuff like agent changes, etc. And then before the meet started I found this.

ATTENTION HORSEMEN: PLEASE CHECK THE OVERNIGHT TO INSURE THAT
YOUR HORSES HAVE BEEN ENTERED CORRECTLY. BLINKERS, SHOES, ETC.
CHANGES CAN BE MADE BY SCRATCH TIME IF NECESSARY

Out here scratch time is 10AM day of race.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by Fingal

Well...not if you race at Del Mar except for the geldings bit.

On overnights I always go through the notes section afterwards as you find some interesting stuff like agent changes, etc. And then before the meet started I found this.



Out here scratch time is 10AM day of race.

Wow !!!

That is a complete disgrace as well as a slap in the face of every gambler that ever wagered a dime there.

Shame on them for treating the public that way.

Have to admit, I never cared for Cal. racing at all.

But I am an east coast guy.

That said, if you wait from 3 pm until 8am the next day to see the horses wanting to scratch, what's the difference, which is sad.

As to the entries, every trainer knows full well what changes are being made weeks in advance, let alone the day of entry. What a joke. And a bad one at that.

[elhelmete]

I just searched 2 DMR condition books and found no such phrase. The closest I could find says:

Owners and trainers when entering horses in races are cautioned to check carefully the eligibility
of their horse and the allowances claimed in all races. Under the universal rules of racing an owner
or trainer is responsible for the eligibility and the weight the horse carries. The Racing Secretary
will be glad to give horsemen any information in respect to their horses that is desired, but the
final responsibilities rest with the owners and trainers