Racing rules vs real life laws.

[Stillriledup]

The fascinating thing that i find about horse racing is that if the participants break the rules, they get punished, almost always, "in house". Its no shock that currently, racing has a pretty bad perception problem and i just wonder if local law enforcement or the fed getting involved would help put the cheats on the straight and narrow?

I would think its easier to cheat if you know that you won't actually have to go thru the American judicial system and your "punishments" will essentially be slaps on the wrist and not jail time or an arrest/criminal record or "prosecuting" people who break real life laws/criminal record.

Tim Donaghy, the "rogue ref" went to jail for fixing sporting events....but no trainer, owners or jocks seem to be jailed for race fixing.

Mike Vick went to jail for organizing dog fights, but if a trainer has a half a dozen or more horses die of sudden and mysterious death, there's no punishment, no jail time, no arrest record, no nothing. Business as usual. Don't ask don't tell. Nobody cares. We talk about it for a few minutes on message boards, there is a little fake outrage and then nobody does a thing about it.

Is this why racing isnt as clean as it could be? you see signs in convenience stores sometimes that say "shoplifting prosecute fullest extent law" so you can "get arrested" if you steal a candy bar, but in racing, you can drug a horse, fix a sporting event, and nothing. Just a small suspension, a small fine and precedent seems to indicate that these trainers who get suspensions for "cheating" never lose clients or money, in other words, their reputation doesnt take a hit at all.

Paula Deen can say the N word 20 years ago and her empire gets shot to bits, nobody wants anything to do with her, she loses millions and when people see her on the street, they turn the other way. Baseball cheats the same thing.....A Rod and Braun, guys like this, nobody wants anything to do with them, Braun loses endorsements and whatnut for cheating, his reputation is really tarnished now......but if Ryan Braun was a horse trainer and cheated, he would get a 30 or 60 day suspension, maybe a 7,500 dollar fine, and spend that time sipping pina coladas on Manhattan beach waiting to come back to the same exact clients he had before he was suspended....rarely will a trainer lose a client for breaking the rules.

Can we make the argument that nothing that happens in racing is anything more than breaking "racing rules" and what happens as cheating in the sport is not really breaking any kind of real life law?

Anyone have the answers?

[Delawaretrainer]

I have often thought the same thing when certain trainers are 40% of the claim, consistently win at a high percentage etc. Also, when the guy at Philly never did well, became amazing overnight and when kicked passed the baton to both his brother then his wife. I see this as theft of millions of dollars.

However, in racing, trainers are guilty whether they are responsible or not due to the trainer responsibility rules. If a disgruntled employee very easily gives a horse medication close to a race, the trainer is still guilty. All they have to do is put a pack of Azium or bute powder in the horses breakfast. Over the years, many innocent horseman have been penalized inappropriately (feed and human contamination, false positives, etc.).

In real life however, people have rights and must be proven guilty. You would have to catch them red handed.

I also think it is a gray area now with steroids. When they were "banned" I think in 2009 there were levels set that cold be found in a post race sample. We all thought those levels accounted for natural levels found in the horse. But, now it has bcom clear that many trainers continued using them and just timed the withdrawl to b below these levels. Every once in a while they screw up md a steroid positive pops up, alway a high percentage guy. The races wher they passed the test they benefited from the effects. So......maybe it's not illegal....

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I have often thought the same thing when certain trainers are 40% of the claim, consistently win at a high percentage etc. Also, when the guy at Philly never did well, became amazing overnight and when kicked passed the baton to both his brother then his wife. I see this as theft of millions of dollars.

However, in racing, trainers are guilty whether they are responsible or not due to the trainer responsibility rules. If a disgruntled employee very easily gives a horse medication close to a race, the trainer is still guilty. All they have to do is put a pack of Azium or bute powder in the horses breakfast. Over the years, many innocent horseman have been penalized inappropriately (feed and human contamination, false positives, etc.).

In real life however, people have rights and must be proven guilty. You would have to catch them red handed.

I also think it is a gray area now with steroids. When they were "banned" I think in 2009 there were levels set that cold be found in a post race sample. We all thought those levels accounted for natural levels found in the horse. But, now it has bcom clear that many trainers continued using them and just timed the withdrawl to b below these levels. Every once in a while they screw up md a steroid positive pops up, alway a high percentage guy. The races wher they passed the test they benefited from the effects. So......maybe it's not illegal....

That is bullshit. People are sent to death row all the time that were not caught "red handed". And the disgruntled employee argument doesn't work in "real life" either.

[Delawaretrainer]

Robert Goren, you are wrong. This was an explanation I was given by a steward. In real life, you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Not sure what country you live in but this is a right afforded to us in the U.S.

I meant IN RACING you would have to catch them red handed. How could you prove that a positive test discovered weeks after the race was actually performed by a trainer? You can't put people in jail if you can't prove they did it. Are you saying that a trainer getting a positive as a result of vet error, disgruntled employee, human contamination, etc. should go to jail for something they didn't do? Of course there would be those that DID do it that would be innocent in a court law because it couldn't be proven.

Also, you see I mentioned vet error above. This does happen. Trainer goes down even if medication report confirms the mistake. Yup, trainer responsibility, horse comes down, trainer pays fine. I have heard of private vets giving banamine instead of bute (different withdrawl period) resulting in a positive. No bute in sample, high banamine, confirmed in stewards medication report. Trainer paid! Another case, vet tech pre loads syringes in the morning with the wrong stuff. All clear liquid, how did the trainer know? Ya,we should send trainers to jail.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Also, you see I mentioned vet error above. This does happen. Trainer goes down even if medication report confirms the mistake. Yup, trainer responsibility, horse comes down, trainer pays fine. I have heard of private vets giving banamine instead of bute (different withdrawl period) resulting in a positive. No bute in sample, high banamine, confirmed in stewards medication report. Trainer paid! Another case, vet tech pre loads syringes in the morning with the wrong stuff. All clear liquid, how did the trainer know? Ya,we should send trainers to jail.

Traines should at least receive strict suspensions with a three strike rule that will take them completely out of the game forever. With this I am referring to a complete ban from any activity related to thoroubreds, from been a breeder to an agent or even working as a clerk.

[Tom]

You cheat, lifetime ban.
Simple.

Too harsh.....don't friggin cheat.

[iceknight]

I was searching for Lasix information sometime back.. and I came across this old article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/hor...ory?id=3324301

The article basically quotes some World Anti-Doping Agency

"appears that Lasix doesn't solve bleeding or keep horses in training longer. Then what does it do? According to the World Anti-Doping Agency, it masks other drugs. That's why it is on its list of banned drugs, which means athletes competing in the Olympics are not permitted to use it."

Now, I don't know if the author Bill Finley has prior agenda or if he is being objective.. but either way.. the stats he mentions are important.

[Show Me the Wire]

Serve a suspension like Jane Cibelli having a horse treated on race day?

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I have often thought the same thing when certain trainers are 40% of the claim, consistently win at a high percentage etc. Also, when the guy at Philly never did well, became amazing overnight and when kicked passed the baton to both his brother then his wife. I see this as theft of millions of dollars.

However, in racing, trainers are guilty whether they are responsible or not due to the trainer responsibility rules. If a disgruntled employee very easily gives a horse medication close to a race, the trainer is still guilty. All they have to do is put a pack of Azium or bute powder in the horses breakfast. Over the years, many innocent horseman have been penalized inappropriately (feed and human contamination, false positives, etc.).

In real life however, people have rights and must be proven guilty. You would have to catch them red handed.

I also think it is a gray area now with steroids. When they were "banned" I think in 2009 there were levels set that cold be found in a post race sample. We all thought those levels accounted for natural levels found in the horse. But, now it has bcom clear that many trainers continued using them and just timed the withdrawl to b below these levels. Every once in a while they screw up md a steroid positive pops up, alway a high percentage guy. The races wher they passed the test they benefited from the effects. So......maybe it's not illegal....

I do see what you're saying, in a court of law, it would be hard to actually prove the trainer was the one who administered the banned substance. Of course, if you have 70 positives, at some point, you can't say that someone sabotaged your sh*t.

What about a scenario like Billy Patin, who was caught "red handed" with a buzzer? they could have prosecuted him criminally, and chose to handle it in house instead.

Guilt or innocence never stopped them from hauling a trainer off in cuffs for race fixing and then letting him prove his innocence in court. If he proved his innocence in court, and used the argument that someone tainted his feed, if he gets off, more power to him, but not after the initial embarrassment, which would be something of a deterrent going forward.

[Delawaretrainer]

Yes there are probably some obvious cases that could easily be prosecuted criminally that they don't. However, wanting to force an innocent trainer to defend himself in court as a "deterrent" is scary to me. The in house process is already stressful enough, mentally and financially. You lose a purse, an owner, etc. you would basically put them out of business guilty or innocent.

I think the press gets a hold of the high profile cases and the public has a skewed perception of reality. Very few samples come up positive. The large majority are for therapeutic drug overages which happen fairly easily with hot weather, low levels and super testing. Many other positives are the result of contamination (purina feed California, scopalamine from hay, etc.). Then every once in a while you have a trainer pushing th envelope and making everyone look bad. The public, especially on the Internet acts like an angry mob. Somebody th other day was freaking out that a trainer could get his hands on a controlled substance like ace, a staple in barn medicine cabinets..

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Yes there are probably some obvious cases that could easily be prosecuted criminally that they don't. However, wanting to force an innocent trainer to defend himself in court as a "deterrent" is scary to me. The in house process is already stressful enough, mentally and financially. You lose a purse, an owner, etc. you would basically put them out of business guilty or innocent.

I think the press gets a hold of the high profile cases and the public has a skewed perception of reality. Very few samples come up positive. The large majority are for therapeutic drug overages which happen fairly easily with hot weather, low levels and super testing. Many other positives are the result of contamination (purina feed California, scopalamine from hay, etc.). Then every once in a while you have a trainer pushing th envelope and making everyone look bad. The public, especially on the Internet acts like an angry mob. Somebody th other day was freaking out that a trainer could get his hands on a controlled substance like ace, a staple in barn medicine cabinets..

Yes, bettors are angry mobs for sure, they want someone's head to roll, the bettors are risking real money on these races, they need to feel that the racing establishments are taking integrity as serious as the bettors need it to be taken.

You make good points about trainers getting hauled off in cuffs and forced to defend in court, i'm not talking about an otherwise innocent trainer who has a clean record and then a positive comes up...im talking about the super trainers and the trainers who are the 'usual suspects' who have dozens of positives. And, the beard trainers who have a relative training the stable on paper, when in reality, they're calling all the shots even though they're suspended. That's a serious integrity issue, i'd toss the book at anyone who does paper trainer stuff.

[Robert Goren]

Delawaretrainer, you do realize that unless the sport is cleaned up, there won't be a sport.

[Delawaretrainer]

Robert, I am all for cleaning up the sport but not prosecuting innocent people. I wold love to see cheaters put in jail, I agree it's race fixing. However, I have seen people get positives where thy didn't administer the drug. Some rashes of positives were eventually discovered to be contamination. One drug manufacturer didnt clean a tank properly when changing medications. It is a miracle the source was discovered. Blood gas machines give false positives all the time.,

Drug rules are extremely strict right now and are getting more strict. Machines can pick up infinitesimal amounts of drugs humans use that wouldn't effect a horse. Trainers even get positives for that. I have friends that have gotten positives for cocaine and caffeine. Nobody would knowingly give these to a horse, they are easily tested. It's a mystery. Do they deserve to go to jail?

The answer is out of competition testing. Instead of drilling down on tiny concentrations of therapeutic medications in non performance enhancing amounts, go after the blood doping agents, steroids, etc. that can only be detected between races. Remember, lance Armstrong passed all his tests post competition. The out of competition testing did him in.

Even if they do this, they would have to account for horses moving barns, etc.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Robert, I am all for cleaning up the sport but not prosecuting innocent people. I wold love to see cheaters put in jail, I agree it's race fixing. However, I have seen people get positives where thy didn't administer the drug. Some rashes of positives were eventually discovered to be contamination. One drug manufacturer didnt clean a tank properly when changing medications. It is a miracle the source was discovered. Blood gas machines give false positives all the time.,

Drug rules are extremely strict right now and are getting more strict. Machines can pick up infinitesimal amounts of drugs humans use that wouldn't effect a horse. Trainers even get positives for that. I have friends that have gotten positives for cocaine and caffeine. Nobody would knowingly give these to a horse, they are easily tested. It's a mystery. Do they deserve to go to jail?

The answer is out of competition testing. Instead of drilling down on tiny concentrations of therapeutic medications in non performance enhancing amounts, go after the blood doping agents, steroids, etc. that can only be detected between races. Remember, lance Armstrong passed all his tests post competition. The out of competition testing did him in.

Even if they do this, they would have to account for horses moving barns, etc.

While accidental positives are part of the game, there is a huge difference between the game's biggest cheats and the guys who "accidentally cheat".

Nobody is suggesting an otherwise clean trainer, with one accidental positive and an otherwise clean record, go to jail. Its the guys and gals with dozens of violations who need to be prosecuted.

As far as drug tests go, there are other ways to sniff out cheating, you can look at massive and overnight form reversals as well as betting patterns. I've never seen an article or report that a trainer, jock or owner got caught betting "inappropriately".

Also, if trainers knew they could be prosecuted in a court of law for cheating, you can bet your bottom dollar that most all trainers would have surveillance cameras everywhere......that way, if their defense is that the horse was tampered with, they can show the tape of someone tampering and get themselves off. But, if they DO have surveillance and can't produce a tape showing that an unknown assailant "got to" the horse, than its off to the big house for them.

[Cannon shell]

No laws are broken in the vast majority of violations and if they are they generally carry pretty soft penalty (an example is possession of a drug not FDA approved). The tampering with a sporting event won't fly and would be challenged by the sports leagues whose players would most likely also fall under this umbrella. Yeah I know about ARod but do you think Denver wants to see Von Miller behind bars? A horse that finishes last and is called on for testing can come up positive just as the winner does. Are you going to put a guy in jail for finishing last?

All one has to do is look at some of the cases that have been adjudicated in the court system to see the folly of believing that is the answer to your wishes. Remember poppyseed bagels and scolamaine? The lawyers tie it up forever and eventually the state loses interest when they start incurring large legal fees and generally settles or loses.

Right now it is far easier to rule on these cases using the current system than the legal system where one simply needs to find a sympathetic judge, completely ignorant of all things horseracing, who believes a bullshit story that brings about plausible deniability.

The levels that are tested for arent at enhancing levels but simply detection. A good lawyer would get cases dismissed just by bringing up this point. When they put a credible vet up on the stand and he testifies that the substance in question has no measurable effect at the mere detection level the prosecution would probably have a hard time winning especially if there were harsh penalties.