RTN Online?
 

According to their website, later this month, RTN is starting an online version of their tv subscription that is currently available on dish network.

Here is the kicker, the online version of the track feeds will only be available, for a $25 monthly fee, to those who already have the dish network and subscribe to the tv version. :bang: If you cannot get dish network for whatever reason, you are SOL. Race replays only, for $15 a month, is all they are offering to those that do not have the tv service.

Thank goodness I already have track feeds through TwinSpires. For those that live in a state that does not have access to track feeds, unfortunately, RTN will be of little help to you.

IMO, a missed opportunity to provide quality online feeds to the general public for a price.

Jim

Jim,

My best guess is that Dish has an exclusive with them.

My next best guess is that this is a way to get a web-based infrastructure in place before Dish pulls the pin on them.


Hope I am wrong because I am thrilled to pay my $110 per month (service + equipment) to have RTN.


Dave

If this happens what will racetracks/simulcast locations use to provide signals for customers ?

Perhaps the same as before: a custom system from RTN.

All I know is that if Dish isn't making money, they aren't likely to keep it going because the industry needs it.

Dish is making plenty and won't be going anywhere. When you can provide inferior service at a high price, that is a win.

I meant making money from THIS deal. Space on satellites (as I understand) is at a premium.

I think the satellite money is why dish is involved. Roberts moved all signals to dish a few months ago. In your home it is an ok value. But now the tracks are all receiving the same time delayed feed you get at your home. You could get a bunch of decoders and watch every track at your home , at the same time, for in the hundreds of dollars. Every track and simulcast location in the country is paying thousands a month for the same time delayed inferior feed you get at home for a fraction of the cost. They used to pay thousands a month because the feed was delivered in, as close to real time as possible ,c-band feeds to the simulcast outlets. Imagine one person at every simulcast window in America being shut out because of the delay. How much is that in handle at the end of the year ? Roberts lowered his cost and is making out great .Tracks and bettors, not so much.

That's why 90% of my bets are on live racing only.......

The way I read this is the on line version of RTN is available for $25 per month. However, the customer must be a RTN tv version subscriber.
One can subscribe to the tv version even if they don't want the satellite system. Basically the on line version is $75 per month of one wishes the live feeds on their computer.
I may be going over to Directv. I was waiting for the RTN on line version to hit the market. My hope is that it was a standalone sort of like the MLB.TV service. Such is not the case.

Correct. Dish is interested primarily in the bandwidth and the transponders.

Ummm , the delay is at best a few seconds. And most of that is due to the longer trip the signal must make to get to the viewer.
BTW, C-Band services are almost non existent for consumer use. Most are commercial applications. Such as delivering raw feed to TV stations for editing and yes, for the simulcasting signals from horse tracks. However, the feeds seen at some shops are from Dish because it is just easier and more cost effective to install small dish antennae at say an OTB or other simulacast shop rather then several 5 to 10 foot C-Band antennae.
I understand the need for some bettors to be able to "press the send button" at the last nanno second. I have a solution. Bet 5 seconds earlier. Or bet before the last horse is loaded.

All tracks and simulcast are all served by dish now. Roberts now makes a higher profit. How many millions in national handle decline is ok because of this? That is the only question.

5 seconds gives plenty of time for a person betting live at the track to modify/cancel bets if a horse acts up unfavorably at the gate or if a standardbred goes off stride steps before the start. When delay was only 2 seconds before (C-Band signal) the advantage wasn't as dramatic. Since the change to DN I have witnessed endless number of frustrated people getting shut out. Many I know now don't even bother to try to bet anymore if horses are loading into the gate. I once sat near a couple of young people new to the game that smashed a monitor in frustration after getting shut out and quickly exited to the slots before commenting on how stupid people are to be subjected to this unnecessary delay.....

Most of the higher ups responsible for making important decisions probably never make a bet and are clueless. In their eyes people who bet horses are all stupid degenerate gamblers who wouldn't notice the difference. If they get shut out one race they will just bet another one until they go home empty.....

That does not appear to be a question. It appears you are convinced that a 3-4 second delay is the cause of millions of dollars in lost handle.
I'd like to know how it is you reached this conclusion. Clearly professional bettors are some pretty smart people. Do you not believe they have figured out a work around?

I still do not understand why it is some people just find it impossible to "plan ahead"..just get your bets in on time.

Ok...Why do you insist that there is some kind of "advantage"..Why is it so impossible to simply adjust your "brain clock" 3-4 seconds ahead and act accordingly?

Professional bettor ???? For every so called professional bettor there must be a 1000 who haven't figured it out yet . Do you not agree that betting increases exponentially as post time approaches ? I wouldn't be surprised that 3 -5 % of possible handle is lost because of this increased delay. This doesn't include the handle lost because of people like myself that refrains from betting simulcast tracks at a disadvantage........

They already have millions in handle decline directly contributed to this in just a few months. An upgrade from a service company should not be a severe detriment to your industry. Who ever heard of a technology upgrade where you get much slower service in this day and age. It is ridiculous.

Do you not agree that 3 to 4 seconds is enough time to adjust/cancel your bet if a horse(s) acts up at the gate or if a standardbred breaks yards before the start ?? Do you understand that this can not be done if you are seeing these events 5 seconds later than the guy at the track ?? If you are a multi- race bettor and/or does not care about body language I can understand your point. But if you rely on odds and body language every second counts - 5 is just too much for me ....

Not sure if you attend a simulcast betting location. If you do, you will notice that a great number of people bet on several tracks at a time and tend to bet seconds before post time especially when 2 or 3 tracks are loading at the same time. Naturally frustration sets in when they inevitably get shut out frequently.....I witness this all the time.

Well said. Do you know that Betfair offers internet feeds approx. 1 second from real time on British Racing ? This is remarkable. The best internet feed from Roberts that I have seen so far is approx. 7-8 seconds from real time. RIDICULOUS !!!!!!! Technology exists to provide a much better service instead they rather paralyze even further an already crippled industry...I wonder if being a monopoly ..... ???

None of you are going to convince me that it is imperative to make wagers at the last possible second on EVERY race one bets.
Look, you guys know your wagering patterns. I know how the video technology works.
I am telling you, the only way there would be no( or slight) delay is if the video was from a closed feed from an over the air system then loaded onto a fiber optic subscriber line, sort of like a super fast T-1 line( they do exist) to each wagering site. The cost to do this would be astronomical.
Satellite technology is the best that can be offered to keep the cost affordable.
The only other way I can see this dilemma being corrected is to close wagering when the first horse is loaded.
Are tracks, ADW's and OTB's going to give up those 1.5 to 2 mins of wagering? Heck no....I guess you'll all have to deal with what we have now.
Or just bet 5 seconds earlier. Your choice.

If you are sitting at your home computer or at your laptop at a wagering site( if it's permitted) yeah, you can cancel or change your wager in the last couple of seconds. If one is at a simulcast facility or on track, I hardly see the possibility that anyone can dart back to a teller window or to an automated machine and have time to make those changes.
BTW, this satellite delay has been in existence for quite some time. I will say it was less when tracks used to old C-Band systems because the signal had to make one less trip into space and back than it does now.
Now it gets bounced at least twice..
Goes from track to uplink. Then it's downlinked back to Dish's uplink center then down one more time to the customer..I think that's how it works. I will have to do some digging to make sure this is accurate..All I know for sure is there is a lot of space to cover before the signal gets to where the customer can use it.

The idea that professional bettors---people with a low margin of error, who bets millions of dollars a year---are jockeying for position at a mutuel window and then getting mad because they can't cancel a bet with three seconds to post instead of one second is totally absurd. If anyone knows a professional who is not only betting live at the track without a rebate but is relying on cancelling or getting in bets in one second instead of three and getting shut out, have him post here. Then I'll believe it's costing racetracks millions of dollars in handle.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Both the Online Package and the Mobile Package are priced at $25. Adding the On Demand Package at $15 per month would mean no TV subscription needed, for a total of $40.

If it's $40 I am getting it. Then it's worth it. If I have to buy the tv and online packages for a total of $75, it's too much for me. That is half the total of my pay tv subscription.
Perhaps someone who cannot for whatever reason satellite reception from the 118.7 orbital slot( from where RTN comes) inquires of RTN about the on line subscription, they can post the info in this thread.

I cannot get a satellite dish due to line of sight issues. I wrote them and asked about my options (I think I know the answer as outlined in my original post in the topic) and will report back when I hear something.

Jim

A group of us(with the use of laptops) used to bet over $3 million a year (includes rebate shops and betting exchanges) when C-Band was used (3 seconds faster than now). Since last second odds, body language etc. is critical in our betting strategies we found that the loss of 3 seconds greatly affected our chance to stay ahead of the game. Now we only average approx. $1 million a year - mostly on live racing.

I talked to someone this week at Dover Down's racebook that has noticed a significant decline in handle since Roberts Comm. discontinued their use of C-Band in September and is very concerned.

Since I am at the track almost everyday I constantly witness frustrated bettors getting shut out all the time.

If it doesn't matter why would Betfair offer feeds approx. 1 second delayed on British Racing. Important for INPLAY yes but they also understand that time is money - even 1 second. Over the long run the seconds add up...They just don't get it here - just clueless.

How can anyone argue that handle will not be affected if 3 seconds of betting time gets chopped off at a crucial time when betting increases exponentially to post time ??????????

Maybe you guys work for Roberts Comm. ?? Because that's the same attitude they had when I spoke to them. Or maybe what Angeleyes says above is true ??

rtn website
 

$25 Per Month

" starts nov26th"

• Live Video Streaming Of Simulcast Feeds (Full Cards, Unedited, Uninterrupted)
• Exact Same Simulcast Feeds As In Racetracks And Simulcast Outlets
• Every Race From Every Simulcast Every Day
• Every North American and Select International Track Simulcasts Available (Largest Simulcast Menu Anywhere- Commercial Or Residential)
• Coverage Includes Thoroughbred, Harness, Quarter Horse Racing, Jai- Alai Games, Major Horse Sales, Special Industry Events, Racing Related Programming
• Up To 80 Simultaneous Channels (Varies Due To Track Racing Schedules)
• Race Replays On Demand (Full Archive Library Of All Simulcast Races)(Look Up By Track, Date, Horse)
• Equibase Data (Entries, Scratches, Jockey/Driver Changes, Results)
• Designed For PCs
• A Must Have For Bettors, Breeders, Owners, Trainers, Jockeys, Industry Employees
• TV Package Subscription Required
• Non-TV Package Subscribers Can Buy The "On Demand Package" (Race Replays Only- Online And Mobile Included-$15 Per Month)

Well, I heard back and was told:

"We are currently working on a package for online use only, meaning you will not need to order the television package as well. This should be implemented early next week. I will email you again to let you know for sure."

I'll let you guys know when I hear more.

Jim

[QUOTE=

I talked to someone this week at Dover Down's racebook that has noticed a significant decline in handle since Roberts Comm. discontinued their use of C-Band in September and is very concerned.[/QUOTE]


The dover racebook handle is in freefall. They are not the only place.

This is a perfect thread. You talk about a change made that is hurting handle and bringing down tracks bottom line. This was a change made that was only a benefit to the business with a monopoly on signal distribution. A negative to players , tracks , and simulcast across the board. Now you have to listen to people tell you not to be unhappy , that you are the one who needs to adjust. I am going to tell those people a secret they may not know. Please feel free to pass it on to your friends in track management.
Customers do not have to adjust to your poor decisions. For twenty years people in charge have made decisions and said the players will just have to adjust. Wake up dummies, they have adjusted. They are doing other things beside going to the track . That is the final adjustment.

It's not that "they just don't get it"...I explained the technology and to give you that almost live signal the cost would be prohibitive.
Why is it available in the UK? I can only guess that the technology is there because as with most Western European nations, many industries are subsidized by the central government.
I have to ask..First what is missing in body language at 5 mins to post that may be there at 5 seconds to load?
I do notice that while on track the majority of the handle hits the tote board in the last few mins before "off". I refuse to believe that it hits with less than 5 seconds to the bell.
You still have not convinced me of the merits of waiting until the last possible nanno-second to make or cancel your wagers.
And please. "You just don't understand" won't cut it. If you want others to understand your plight you must come clean and explain the REAL reason why you require live feed as though you were on track....
Oh one more question.. When you are watching feeds from your laptop or other device, if the feed is not trained on your horse(s) then how can you look at body language?
One last point. Most tracks especially in the warmer months have been reporting increases in all sources handle. Just because your acquaintance at Dover Downs tells you handle is down at that facility, does not mean it is down at other places.
I am not challenging you. I am having a hard time with controlling my inquisitive nature and heightened awareness of "something just does not look right"..

No one is demanding real time. The least your upgrade should do is be as fast as the signal you provided for the last twenty years. IT IS NOT.

In September , roberts killed all cband feeds and went to total dish feeds. Since then millions of dollars in handle has declined directly because of this. They know. They say they are working on a viable alternative. The obvious alternative is to do what you were doing for twenty years without this delay. What's a million a month here or there in a industry this strong ?

As a long time subscriber to the RTN feed, long before the Dishnet contract, and one who is acutely aware of handle movement, I would suggest that your estimates of lost handle are grossly overstated. I cannot prove this any more than you can prove your side of the argument.

I can say that a decline in handle is not proof that the inaccuracies are costing millions in handle because handle has been declining for years.

At many tracks - especially those with high rebates - my statistics indicate that approximately 72% of total win pool handle shows in the pool AFTER the gate is open. This is NOT due to past posting, but rather the fact that so many large wagers come in just before the gate is loaded but after the last usable tote flash.

I would further suppose that a greater percentage of pool is showing up after the gate is open than ever before. (This is anecdotal, but I believe it to be true.)

The only way to really know the millions being left unwagered, would be if there is a specific statistic which says, "rejected bets." I am unaware of any such published stats. If you have such statistics, please post them. I would be very interested in any tote movement stats available.


As for being shut out, it would be my experience that horse players adapt very quickly to change. Do I ever get shut out? Absolutely. However, it is rarely because I waited too long to play BECAUSE of a slow feed. Generally, it is because I was not paying attention and allowed the time to get away from me (despite the fact that I have measures in place to prevent this).

I suggest that anyone who is playing on anything that resembles a serious and/or professional level WILL quickly learn from being shut out once or twice in a single day that they must get their wagers in earlier. It isn't rocket science.

IMHO, anyone who is getting shut out often is either using a feed that is off by far more than 5 seconds or insists on wagering at the last possible moment. And sometimes they miss. Again, IMHO, that would mean that their approach to timing needs to be revamped. The industry has shown for years, it is very disrespectful of the customers needs.

Simply put, the tracks will go down in flames before they change anything.


Of course, this is just my opinion.

Yours may differ greatly.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

They have been working on it for almost 2 years now ?????????

That's when most places converted. Before the change Roberts claimed that the difference would be negligible -less than a second. It went from 5 seconds slower at first to 3 seconds - been like this for over a year and a half now. STILL WAITING !!!!!
A manager (Peter Blackmon) at Roberts told me that he can provide tracks/simulcast locations with feeds close to real time - only 1 second delay. Its all about how much you want to spend. He also indicated that most higher ups were satisfied with a 5 second delay and hence what we have now.
Track Management don't give a sh!t - they get paid a salary no matter what happens. We are just a bunch of degenerate idiots anyways.

Their claim is they can give it to you one second behind. Then they said it might cost 10k a month to a track. Multiple tracks said ok , put it in. Then they went to spitting and stammering and making excuses for months. I highly doubt they have the ability at all.

If Exchange wagering is implemented in the U.S. you will understand. Right now on most U.S. markets most of the significant money starts to get matched there anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes before post time and like here increases exponentially till post time. Many times there are strategies where one lays on the exchange first and then bets at the tote. The good thing about the exchange is that odds you get are fixed but on tote they aren't. TOTE odds changing so drastically as horses are loading in the gate complicates matters. On top of that we rely heavily on gate behavior as well. Slower feeds now creates many situations where I get stuck with a LAY bet on the Exchange and no offsetting bets on the TOTE(ie. got shut out). If he wins I'm screwed.
If you are primarily a multi race bettor I can see why a couple of seconds doesn't matter. Every second counts with what we do.
Also I can see why standardbred players can be angry now - why would anyone bet serious money when a horse can break yards before the start changing the whole complexion of the race .....

Hope this answers your question.

I know that it is possible. Like I said Betfair provides close to real time feeds to their bettors on British Racing. And I am pretty sure that Roberts is providing them very fast feeds(maybe through TVG) on US Racing. They are supposedly managing US horse racing markets overseas and yet are seeing things faster than us ??? How is that possible ?????
The difference is that they are on the ball and have no problem spending money on ensuring that they keep their shareholders happy.....

If we don't have real time feeds, Betfair might as well not even attempt to start up exchange waging in California, as it is, exchange wagering will be hard to implement without the added problem of delayed feeds.

This industry continues to shoot itself in the foot at every turn.