Turf Harness Racing, I like it!
 

[YT="Meadowland Harness on Turf"]df_hfqBg9o4[/YT]

If finishes end like this I can reallly see this improving the quality of Harness Racing.

It was an good finish but what about the start?

I'm more of a traditionalist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbQvpJsTvxU

I loved the way the starting vehicle was bouncing around. It bounced so much that one of the starters got knocked around by it and ended up being declared a nonstarter. The times were obviously slower, but a great finish, like most Tbred finishes on the turf.

START OF TURF RACE
 

They obviously should have been more prepared for the start with some test runs but the turf race was exciting. My top 3 picks on ustrotting.com produced the exacta and trifecta, which paid good. This was how harness racing was when they had wooden bikes, fast pace meant closers win. The new bikes have severely damaged the sport. I loved the turf race.

Not for nothing but the "more exciting finish" opinion is the one that brought us synthetic surfaces for Thorougbreds. ;)

SYNTHETIC
 

I do well on synthetic tracks, the key is looking for stalkers who can finish and stay away from cheap speed.

2:04:1 for 15000 pacing claimers. We are back in the 20s and 30s.

And please please don't give any new and fresh ideas to the Woodbine people as they are most likely to try it.

Sea Biscuit.

A nice "novelty", but please spare us anything further....

How serious can you get with the form of the horses....Not too, I think...Fun maybe, but dumb for "my" betting purposes...I am a traditionalist, of course...

I can forsee crashes on a much wider scale than normal, especially on a slick surface....

best.

SLOW TIME
 

Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.

Pandy: I think you give too much credit to the super bikes as you call them for the faster times. The quality of horses and their breeding has much improved over the last 30/40 years which is the main reason for the faster times.

Besides you cannot stop the advancement of technology. The fact that we are discussing harness racing with each other on an internet forum is testimony to that fact.

Sea Biscuit.

TIMES
 

I respectfully disagree. Bret Hanover paced in 1:55 in 1965 (time trialed in 153.3), in a wooden sulky. Today's Harmer bike with the best wheels is 7 seconds faster, which would give Bret Hanover a 1:48 mark, which is about right for a horse that won 62 of 68 starts and raced against the likes of Cardigan Bay (losing twice but beat him several times). As you probably know, thoroughbreds have not improved, in fact, the thoroughbred breed has weakened, and there's no logical reason to assume that standardbreds have improved. There isn't a horse racing today that could beat Bret Hanover.

Technology should not have applied to harness racing, the wooden bike should have been declared the standard bike and if it had, the sport would be healthier. You have to understand something, I lived in NY and knew most of the professional gamblers who bet harness racing back in the 70's, big bettors. I'm talking about legendary gamblers. Everyone of them switched to thoroughbreds and stopped betting harness racing within 2-3 years after the introduction of the "modified sulky". With the wooden bikes, harness racing was BY FAR the best gamble a smart gambler could bet his money on. Now thoroughbred racing is. All of these guys won consistently until the bike change, so I'm not throwing around some nonsense here. My Best Bets which appeared in Sports Eye and then on my own sheet showed a flat bet profit of 25% over a 7 year period (at Roosevelt/Yonkers), but as the bikes became faster and faster, it became harder for me to pick the longshot winners that are necessary to show a profit. Fortunately, I have become an expert at picking longshot winners at the flats.

Agree with Bob!!!
 

These days it is all about speed.........early speed .........harness and thoroughbreds.........the only value found is betting closers..........it is almost become a lost art (finding the closing horses).

Not to be arbitrary, but I collect on some nice paying "speed" horses on a most regular basis...

For instance (not trying to redboard) last nite (Sun 7/26/09) at Mohawk, I cashed in back to back races on horses that won as the frontrunners in their respective races...8th-race-#10..Master Charge ($14.70)....& 9th race, #9- Secret Lives ($11.30).....Both of these horses were in "Form" and posessed pace numbers that were "very" advantageous...Both had shown the ability to take the lead when needing to, and yet were not driven that way in their last bunch of races....It was raining and the frontrunners were enjoying a clear and substantial advantage for most of the races up to and including those two races.....Master Charge brushed to a very quick command and said goodbye by 7+ lengths, and Secret Lives was hung out to the 3/8ths bidding and battling for the lead and yet still had the gamesness to win safely over the late charging 3/5 fave....

I am not trying to toot my horn here, but, I simply wanted to demonstrate that there are good values out there if you spend the time to look for those opportunities...Speed, despite it overuse and abuse can still be made to work for you, if you are patient and wait for the "right-spots" to arise...

Early speed like ill-perceived good form, can often be an illusion of sorts, and I think that the key is to find the legitimate ones who are in "TRUE" good form with "BEST" pace-numbers, in order to beat these "illusionists" (false favorites)...That is the combo that I use when looking for the above two-mentioned horses...

For me Early Speed and Position are the "anchors" that I need to ply my knowledge and skills effectively....I know, for me, when the speed is not holding that I often become confused and will not play as much as when I know I have something more concrete and substantial to rely on, and that would be speed....

Early speed can be a "friend or foe", depends on how one uses it, I guess...Some days I love it, and somedays I curse it, especially when I get it wrong..

Lately tho, at the "Big-M", Pocono Downs, and at Chester, it seems that the early speed is not as consistent as usual (weather as of late, may be the culprit here), but I still get my horses to perform ok....I think that the sharper "drivers" get a sense of what is happening on the day's card and adjust their race tactics accordingly and allow for the change in racing style "bias" for that day...

That is what makes this game so appealing and challenging for me...

best,

I have to agree with Pandy.

What has hurt the handle in harness racing is the bike not the evolution of speed nor the aggresive driving of the reinsmen today.

In the hey day of harness racing 1962-1978 it was great to see the big gamblers (Mort F, Artie Beard etc ) waiting to play at night and just use their "play" money in the daytime at the TBreds track.

I remember Sports Eye at 35 cents before they had multi tracks or past performances. All they had was morning line and what they thought the horse would go off at.

Your best bets were amazing.
I'll never forget when I saw a claimer on a 1/2 mile go under 2 minutes.
It was at Roosevelt and it was Gene B Good with Carmine in the sulky.

Even the Meadowlands was great at the beginning with horses shippiing in from all over before Garden State made it a year round circuit. Wooden bikes back then no modified sulky.

Remember when BG's Bunny paced 154 in his Wilson elimination?
I thought a 3yr old could never pace that fast.
Nowadays 154 is an average time at the Meadowlands for a 15 claimer in January.

I've gone from 6 days a week at YR and/or Meadowlands to 5 days a week at Monmouth Park.

From Pandy's best bets to CJ's Pace Figures.

Next year I retire and it wil be 7 days a week at Monmouth.

I must agree with Pandy here.

For support. . one only needs to reflect upon the changes in race times that took place with the Single-shaft sulky came into existence.

The modified sulky was the invention/design of the same person who introduced the Single-shaft, Joe King. After the SS was banned, King tried for approval of a dual shaft which mounted is a similar manner to the SS, although he could not get approval.
His further research resulted in the current modified design.

The King bike actually first appeared in 1958 and was tested at Buffalo Raceway on a horse named Baldwin Hanover with Levi Harner doing the driving.

Later came the Cheetah which was short lived also. Eventually banned, many claim unnecessarily.
The litigation took a while and was expensive for the USTA.

When I was so young, I would walk over to Penn-Station in Newark, and from the corner newstand would purchase a "National Armstrong" ($.50) for Yonkers or Roosevelt, and I would handicap their "comments" to death...then phone the "bookie" to get my bets in, and wait for results and the stretch call on AM radio that nite, or else wait for the results in the morning newspaper....:jump: ...The Red-Man was my hero...(speed)

best,

LK,
You likely had that bookie cursing with all those "if comes" ;)

Don.....Nah, he "liked" me....:D

best,

They are lighter for sure and aerodynamics I believe only help minimal IMO.The idea that the shafts "quickhitch" and are no longer tied down probably make the most difference IMO.Add in the previous two factors and it becomes a much bigger factor! This enables a horse to cut the turns smoother with less resistance.

As far as it being the biggest factor, I must disagree here.The addition of chemical warfare at an alltime high is why we see the biggest teletimer difference.The improvement of the breed is questionable, because we may be breeding faster horses to a degree, but they are not holding up!! It's a simple rule when you incorporate preracing with foreign substaces to make a horse go faster than he is naturaly able, it always causes consequences to that horse somewhere down the line.Think about it, or better yet, keep records on the "overnighters" at you local tracks and see how many dissapear never to be see again in your past performances.

It will never happen, but the day they level the field on preracing is the day we will see the teletimer drop.

Keep it real!

BEST BETS
 

Thanks Arno

With the move to synthetic tracks, it seems thoroughbred racing is moving AWAY from early speed, not towards it. Of course on the dirt it's always nice to have speed, but there's less real dirt than there used to be.

THE TURF
 

This is a great idea the trifecta pool was the largest of the night from what i understand.The prices were big, so that cannot be BAD.

On a bad note the M1 did a horrible job testing this out.The trainers were not happy at all, not only because the gate fiasco, but the turf conditions were way to deep!!

Horses such as METEOR MAN who is a chronic lame piece was hurting getting over that surface, and it should of had the reverse effects on him.There were others in there too, who were not taking to it.

The turf needs to be dry to a large degree, and not soggy, if they want to card the cheaper more problematic horses to compete.I would compare that turf to a true muddy dirt track that was not properly maitenanced.Suspensory ligiments are prone to be stressed on these type of surfaces, and I can guarantee that at least one of those entered that night has had previous issues with that injury, maybe it occured to some horse that night.

The Standardbred horse is a much hardier breed of horse when compared to the much more "fragile" Thoroughbred, and yet I see that they are, breedwise, not well trained or adapted to this "surface"....So I say, why play with "fire", when there is no fire or a need for one, at that....

This is not good, as I see it...It will only spell problems further on down the line....No need for this, other than for entertainment and amusement purposes, and me, I could care less about it.....This is not the problem facing harness racing these day....

The Meadowlands has lost much of it's luster of previous seasons and generations...It has lost many quality entries to other tracks this season, and it shows, and it shows "scarily" bad this year...More than any year that I have seen....Yonkers Raceway, as a result of it's Casino has boosted their purses significantly this year, and has stolen many good horses from M1 as a result...Not to mention Chester and Pocono, with their Casino's, have purses equivalent or now even better the the Big-M....

I think that the Meadowlands, if we are to see it return as the "Shining Star" of Harness racing again, had better get more creative, and pronto, if they are to maintain what once was the place to be and compete, in harness racing...The are slipping into "Horse 3d Worldism" at an accelerated pace, IMO....

The quality of horses, especially "fast & fit" horses, was just not there for me this year....In fact it stunk this year....I played very little at this venue this season....A sad commentary to be sure...

I don't think "Turf" racing is the answer nor it is it going to change things, in any way, for the better...I surely hope they address the purse issue first, as I miss "my old" Big-M"...They must get the "BEST" horses available back, and quickly, at that....I think they are aware of this, and are working on it.....I certainly hope so...For me ,The Big-M, was always the finest and classiest Harness-Track in the world...It will be sad to see it cease being that....That bothers me...

best,

Remember the New Zealand horses have been racing on the grass for a long time.This can be done, and if it is done correctly, it will indeed benefit the horse,horseman and the betting public.

You need to generate something new to this game.The pools showed that there was interest, and people just do not want to see boring five dollar winners, twenty dollar exactas crossing the wire night after night.This race was a wild finish with good payoffs..THATS WHAT THE FANS WANT TO SEE, AND IT WILL INDEED BRING IN NEW ONES. Let's face it,there are NO FANS of this sport under fourty years of age, outside of those that are actively in the game.That inevitably spells DOOM, forget all the other reasons...THIS IS THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE RECTIFIED IMMEDIATELY IMO.

Keep it real!

Dan, Dan, Dan, do you really believe that "Turf Harness", will bring in new blood and save this game ?

As for $5.00 winners, it never used to be that way at the Big_M, I've kashed many a nice number in the past.....The probelm as I have stated before, is, there are not enough of "fast and fit" horses to go around anymore...There simply is TOO MUCH racing going on "simultaneously", and none of the tracks want to give an inch on that, period, I think.... The same thing that is going to ruin Thoroughtbred racing is steadily closing in on the Trots as well....Perhaps a mite quicker too...Really, if a horse is racing 50 times a year, I think that is ridiculous...

Years ago there were seasonal "meets", and then they would close up shop....This is no longer true, as now, there are so many tracks vying for the "same" bucks, especially with simulcasting and ADW's....Something must change in order to save this game, the one that we love so much...But, I absolutely believe that "turf harness" is not the key, or even one of them....

P.S. I get double digit horses on a steady basis, just no so much at M1 anymore...

best,

You are still living in the past LK.The meets being run the way they are is what it is.Your horses "fast and fit" theory is not a legit one IMO.Horses are raced like machines and when one is gone their will always be another to replace it.

Gamblers want action for their money and this game is B-O-R-I-N-G!!! Go to the smaller tracks and they are even more B-O-R-I-N-G! Gamblers want to see these kind of payoffs and type of finishes.If the miles go in 2:04, do you think the old, or new fans, will claim what a boring game this is...NO, not if they are cashing a $2,000 triple!!!

Make them distance races on the grass for the overnighters and watch the people come back to the track.Have you been to the M1 lately?, you could throw a balling ball down the grandstand level and not hit anything with a pulse!

I am tired of hearing there is too much racing, it's like complaining about the chemists in the game having an unfair advantage, both will not change.It's time to get onto something that will get people back to the track.

Tired of it or not, there IS TOO MUCH racing...these are the facts as they are, not mine, OURS

Yeah Dan, I guess you are right, I am living in the past.... Let's Bring on The Turf Hosses......Then I will quit, and there will be one more gone from the game....

Perhaps your handicapping methods are of old as well, or maybe the tracks you play are not up to your standards....There are plenty of bargains still to be had...And, they can be had without turf-harness....I don't think racing is boring at all....It is all just a point of view, I guess...

best,

LK I will be right behind you in quitting this game, when they introduce turf harness with different distances. There will be more quitters to this game than they will bringing in new ones.

I suggest those you find this game boring, they should seriously consider the flats.

Sea Biscuit.

Ok Biscuit, still, the problem is the same with the flats, TOO MUCH RACING, and not enough GOOD horses to go around.....The short-fields for the flats are even much worse that the trots....Plus the fact that, at the flats they can get away with "scratching" a horse for any old reason....At the trot's you had better have a good reason to scratch a horse....Still, the problem, especially at the Big-M, for me, is the shortage of "Quality" horses that should be competing at that track....This year they lowered their purses, and lowered the standards, from some long standing "bottom Line"-entry level races...This year in particular they have attracted so many "sick, lame and lazy" horses.... And, no matter how good the trainer are, they are just not that competitive this year...I think it a problem that is only going to get worse.....Yes, racing at the Big-M, has gotten very boring & unplayable....Boring to the point that I play elsewhere now, and find it pretty good pickins' on most days elsewhere....Sure the summer "blahs" are upon us right now (which as a matter of course, happens every year during this season), with all these "green" 2yo's & 3yo's hogging up most mid-week cards, but other than that there are still some juicy situations that crop up and an alert player "does" have the opportunity to kash in on them, I know I do.....Just not at the Big-M any longer....Too bad about that...I just can't make any money there, any longer...too sad about that...

It used to be, most of the baby races were contested as "non-betting" events at the Big-M, and horses got their experience that way, or at lesser tracks, but now, they are taking up most of the card in middle of the week cards, and now are spilling over into the weekend cards....So with the shortage of good horses, that is what we are left with....That is boring, for sure....It used to be that there was an interspersing of 2yo and green 3yo races during any one day's particular card, but now it is almost "all" of those types dominating a full card....And we all know how predictable these types of races are.....

And, how about shortening the amount of races, on any card for most harness tracks...It seems that almost all of the tracks have now gone to 13-16 race cards.... For me, that is way "TOO" much racing, and it shows in the quality of the fields, that are going to post these days....Years ago when they were packing them in the stands, they had 9-races a day and that was it...

And you really can't say that the flats are any less boring or fruitful, because, as per another thread on this forum, the numbers say, that winning favorites are way up from previous years at most tracks.....Again, a shortage of good horses, I think, is the culprit....And yes, they already have "TURF" racing & different distance races.....

Too much racing, that is what I believe, and I will hold to that.....Bigger and more quality fields add up to better betting opportunities and "higher handles", imo....

So bring on the "turf buggies"....Maybe they could put spikes on the wheels for extra traction...:D....baloney ! :D ....Go Big-M, you show them how it should be done ! :D

best,

Turf Racing
 

I think turf racing for harness racing can work; it is being done in Ireland and the UK and some races are still on the turf down under. That being said, we need to have more than an occasional turf race if it is going to happen. In addition, as we can see from the Meadowland's last attempt, it would be best if they started the races without the car; like some races are still started in Europe. I know, it kind of reminds you of steeplechase starts.

It would just break the monotony and it presents another option for introducing harness racing at tracks that have mixed meets. You can race the trotters over the turf at those tracks while the runners keep the dirt course.

Exactly...the options are widespread on what you can do with standardbreds on the grass.The fifty and over crowd who are the vast majority who still bet this game always hate change and stubbornly refuse any new ideas that will bring new people to the track.Away from the M1 a person under thirty at the track are never seen!

My wife the other day told her longtime girlfriend "that we were going to the Hambletonian at the M1 on the eighth". Now mind you, her friend is in her late thirties and has owned riding horses all her life and has been involved in rescueing these animals for twenty years or more. She was totally dumbfounded in what my wife was talking about, and this with her knowing that I have trained harness horses.

People under fifty who are not involved in it actively, do not even know this sport even exists...Turf could very well be the way to the survival of this sport.Not for nothing, but when all fans born in the thirties,fourties, and fifties pass on to the "great racetrack in the sky"...THEN WHAT?

botster,
As big as baseball is, I'd be willing to wager that there are people that never heard of Ruth, Ghering, DiMaggio, Mantle, Aaron and many others.

Same for basketball; Russell, Wilt, and many more.

How about boxing; who ever heard of Jimmy Braddock before the recent Russell Crowe movie?

Harness racing?
Billy Haughton, Joe O'Brien, Joe Coates, John Hervey, P. W. Moser, Ted Hansom, on and on. . . wager I could list hundreds.

Many of the former names in harness racing, I'm able to see via my websites, searches across the internet whenever their names are mentioned in press releases.

"Our audience" is quite small. The majority of our audience is focused upon this race and this number, or this combination of numbers and could care less of the background of the participants or the race.

BTW, while your standing in the Hambo crowd?
Try asking a few people is they ever heard of William Rysdyk?
I'll wager you'll get more HUH's than you will answers.

Since you'll be in Joisey?
How about some Joisey harness racing questions?

"Jersey Skeeter"?
Is there a track at Newark? or Trenton?
How about Johnson Park?
Joe Carr?

My friend, I am talking about the sport itself.You can go to a third world country where they don't have running water and I will bet you they have heard of basketball.

An audience would first need to be aware that the sport exists before they can be interested in the participants.The fact remains humans love to gamble and could care less about the participants anyway.

I will ask some of the younger persons in attendance if they would rather cash a twenty dollar ticket or a two hundred dollar ticket.I will get back to you on their response.

Johnson Park
 

I used to love racing at Johnson Park as well as New Egypt, Tinton Falls and other fair stops in New Jersey. Stopping the fair meets was a big mistake. True there was no betting, but what better was is there to introduce young people to the sport?

Go up to Goshen on the 4th of July and get over 2,000 people there. How many tracks get those many people showing for the live racing?

A penny saved and a dollar lost.

Pacingguy,
Your Tinton Falls references brings to mind an interesting recollection that took some digging and lots of luck on my part to sort things out for anothers inquiry.

Tinton Falls was the home of "Willowbrook Farm".

There was an earlier farm with a similar name ("Willow Brook") that was located at Little Falls, NJ. Walter Wilkins owned "Willow Brook" at one point.

They are both historical farms that are long gone.

Here's a 2000 article on the sale of Willowbrook at Tinton Falls

Let's face it Pandy..the internet caused the downfall of the attendence at the harness track's. I remember...(not that i'm old)...you had to go to the track to make a bet, even if it was one race. As long as you were there you bet the rest. It was exciting getting together, with your gambling friends and trying to figure out the winner. Now you sit alone at your computer and make that bet without going to the track. I know the internet is somewhat a good thing, making money from your service and kinda talking to other people about harness racing. Let's face it, how many on this site go to the track at least 15 to 20 times a month instead of betting on the net. Everyone always wants to do better no matter what they are involved in, so why do you think slower times are better? There has always been bad drives no matter how fast or slow the horses are traveling. As for turf racing i agree with LK, some horses are meant to stay on the dirt. The better paying horses are always going to be there.....as long as you wait for them

Maybe I'm dense or something, but wouldn't repeated running of harness races over the turf basically ruin the course? The ruts those small diameter tires would wear into the grass would be quite disruptive....in my opinion. Wouldn't safety be compromised if wheels got caught in some of the deeper ruts at critical stages(turns for example)? After all, some of the drivers weigh close to 180 or so....they do run harness races over a MUCH FIRMER surface than thoroughbred, due to the trailing buggy, N'EST PAS?