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Old 07-26-2009, 09:13 AM   #1
bane
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Turf Harness Racing, I like it!

[YT="Meadowland Harness on Turf"]df_hfqBg9o4[/YT]

If finishes end like this I can reallly see this improving the quality of Harness Racing.

Last edited by cj; 07-26-2009 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:14 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df_hfqBg9o4

If finishes end like this I can reallly see this improving the quality of Harness Racing.

It was an good finish but what about the start?
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:23 AM   #3
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I'm more of a traditionalist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbQvpJsTvxU
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:25 AM   #4
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I loved the way the starting vehicle was bouncing around. It bounced so much that one of the starters got knocked around by it and ended up being declared a nonstarter. The times were obviously slower, but a great finish, like most Tbred finishes on the turf.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:40 AM   #5
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START OF TURF RACE

Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
It was an good finish but what about the start?
They obviously should have been more prepared for the start with some test runs but the turf race was exciting. My top 3 picks on ustrotting.com produced the exacta and trifecta, which paid good. This was how harness racing was when they had wooden bikes, fast pace meant closers win. The new bikes have severely damaged the sport. I loved the turf race.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
They obviously should have been more prepared for the start with some test runs but the turf race was exciting. My top 3 picks on ustrotting.com produced the exacta and trifecta, which paid good. This was how harness racing was when they had wooden bikes, fast pace meant closers win. The new bikes have severely damaged the sport. I loved the turf race.

Not for nothing but the "more exciting finish" opinion is the one that brought us synthetic surfaces for Thorougbreds.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:08 AM   #7
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SYNTHETIC

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Originally Posted by andymays
Not for nothing but the "more exciting finish" opinion is the one that brought us synthetic surfaces for Thorougbreds.
I do well on synthetic tracks, the key is looking for stalkers who can finish and stay away from cheap speed.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:22 AM   #8
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2:04:1 for 15000 pacing claimers. We are back in the 20s and 30s.

And please please don't give any new and fresh ideas to the Woodbine people as they are most likely to try it.

Sea Biscuit.

Last edited by Sea Biscuit; 07-27-2009 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:44 AM   #9
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A nice "novelty", but please spare us anything further....

How serious can you get with the form of the horses....Not too, I think...Fun maybe, but dumb for "my" betting purposes...I am a traditionalist, of course...

I can forsee crashes on a much wider scale than normal, especially on a slick surface....

best.
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:45 AM   #10
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SLOW TIME

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Originally Posted by Sea Biscuit
2:04:1 for 15000 pacing claimers. We are back in the 20s and 30s.

And please please don't give any new and fresh ideas to the Woodbine people as they are most likely to try it.

Sea Biscuit.
Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.
Pandy: I think you give too much credit to the super bikes as you call them for the faster times. The quality of horses and their breeding has much improved over the last 30/40 years which is the main reason for the faster times.

Besides you cannot stop the advancement of technology. The fact that we are discussing harness racing with each other on an internet forum is testimony to that fact.

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Old 07-27-2009, 09:43 AM   #12
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TIMES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Biscuit
Pandy: I think you give too much credit to the super bikes as you call them for the faster times. The quality of horses and their breeding has much improved over the last 30/40 years which is the main reason for the faster times.

Besides you cannot stop the advancement of technology. The fact that we are discussing harness racing with each other on an internet forum is testimony to that fact.

Sea Biscuit.
I respectfully disagree. Bret Hanover paced in 1:55 in 1965 (time trialed in 153.3), in a wooden sulky. Today's Harmer bike with the best wheels is 7 seconds faster, which would give Bret Hanover a 1:48 mark, which is about right for a horse that won 62 of 68 starts and raced against the likes of Cardigan Bay (losing twice but beat him several times). As you probably know, thoroughbreds have not improved, in fact, the thoroughbred breed has weakened, and there's no logical reason to assume that standardbreds have improved. There isn't a horse racing today that could beat Bret Hanover.

Technology should not have applied to harness racing, the wooden bike should have been declared the standard bike and if it had, the sport would be healthier. You have to understand something, I lived in NY and knew most of the professional gamblers who bet harness racing back in the 70's, big bettors. I'm talking about legendary gamblers. Everyone of them switched to thoroughbreds and stopped betting harness racing within 2-3 years after the introduction of the "modified sulky". With the wooden bikes, harness racing was BY FAR the best gamble a smart gambler could bet his money on. Now thoroughbred racing is. All of these guys won consistently until the bike change, so I'm not throwing around some nonsense here. My Best Bets which appeared in Sports Eye and then on my own sheet showed a flat bet profit of 25% over a 7 year period (at Roosevelt/Yonkers), but as the bikes became faster and faster, it became harder for me to pick the longshot winners that are necessary to show a profit. Fortunately, I have become an expert at picking longshot winners at the flats.
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:28 AM   #13
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Agree with Bob!!!

These days it is all about speed.........early speed .........harness and thoroughbreds.........the only value found is betting closers..........it is almost become a lost art (finding the closing horses).
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinner369
These days it is all about speed.........early speed .........harness and thoroughbreds.........the only value found is betting closers..........it is almost become a lost art (finding the closing horses).
Not to be arbitrary, but I collect on some nice paying "speed" horses on a most regular basis...

For instance (not trying to redboard) last nite (Sun 7/26/09) at Mohawk, I cashed in back to back races on horses that won as the frontrunners in their respective races...8th-race-#10..Master Charge ($14.70)....& 9th race, #9- Secret Lives ($11.30).....Both of these horses were in "Form" and posessed pace numbers that were "very" advantageous...Both had shown the ability to take the lead when needing to, and yet were not driven that way in their last bunch of races....It was raining and the frontrunners were enjoying a clear and substantial advantage for most of the races up to and including those two races.....Master Charge brushed to a very quick command and said goodbye by 7+ lengths, and Secret Lives was hung out to the 3/8ths bidding and battling for the lead and yet still had the gamesness to win safely over the late charging 3/5 fave....

I am not trying to toot my horn here, but, I simply wanted to demonstrate that there are good values out there if you spend the time to look for those opportunities...Speed, despite it overuse and abuse can still be made to work for you, if you are patient and wait for the "right-spots" to arise...

Early speed like ill-perceived good form, can often be an illusion of sorts, and I think that the key is to find the legitimate ones who are in "TRUE" good form with "BEST" pace-numbers, in order to beat these "illusionists" (false favorites)...That is the combo that I use when looking for the above two-mentioned horses...

For me Early Speed and Position are the "anchors" that I need to ply my knowledge and skills effectively....I know, for me, when the speed is not holding that I often become confused and will not play as much as when I know I have something more concrete and substantial to rely on, and that would be speed....

Early speed can be a "friend or foe", depends on how one uses it, I guess...Some days I love it, and somedays I curse it, especially when I get it wrong..

Lately tho, at the "Big-M", Pocono Downs, and at Chester, it seems that the early speed is not as consistent as usual (weather as of late, may be the culprit here), but I still get my horses to perform ok....I think that the sharper "drivers" get a sense of what is happening on the day's card and adjust their race tactics accordingly and allow for the change in racing style "bias" for that day...

That is what makes this game so appealing and challenging for me...

best,
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Last edited by LottaKash; 07-27-2009 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:19 PM   #15
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I have to agree with Pandy.

What has hurt the handle in harness racing is the bike not the evolution of speed nor the aggresive driving of the reinsmen today.

In the hey day of harness racing 1962-1978 it was great to see the big gamblers (Mort F, Artie Beard etc ) waiting to play at night and just use their "play" money in the daytime at the TBreds track.

I remember Sports Eye at 35 cents before they had multi tracks or past performances. All they had was morning line and what they thought the horse would go off at.

Your best bets were amazing.
I'll never forget when I saw a claimer on a 1/2 mile go under 2 minutes.
It was at Roosevelt and it was Gene B Good with Carmine in the sulky.

Even the Meadowlands was great at the beginning with horses shippiing in from all over before Garden State made it a year round circuit. Wooden bikes back then no modified sulky.

Remember when BG's Bunny paced 154 in his Wilson elimination?
I thought a 3yr old could never pace that fast.
Nowadays 154 is an average time at the Meadowlands for a 15 claimer in January.

I've gone from 6 days a week at YR and/or Meadowlands to 5 days a week at Monmouth Park.

From Pandy's best bets to CJ's Pace Figures.

Next year I retire and it wil be 7 days a week at Monmouth.
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