Turf Harness Racing, I like it!

[bane]

df_hfqBg9o4

If finishes end like this I can reallly see this improving the quality of Harness Racing.

[andymays]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df_hfqBg9o4

If finishes end like this I can reallly see this improving the quality of Harness Racing.


It was an good finish but what about the start?

[ryesteve]

I'm more of a traditionalist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbQvpJsTvxU

[levinmpa]

I loved the way the starting vehicle was bouncing around. It bounced so much that one of the starters got knocked around by it and ended up being declared a nonstarter. The times were obviously slower, but a great finish, like most Tbred finishes on the turf.

[pandy]

It was an good finish but what about the start?

They obviously should have been more prepared for the start with some test runs but the turf race was exciting. My top 3 picks on ustrotting.com produced the exacta and trifecta, which paid good. This was how harness racing was when they had wooden bikes, fast pace meant closers win. The new bikes have severely damaged the sport. I loved the turf race.

[andymays]

They obviously should have been more prepared for the start with some test runs but the turf race was exciting. My top 3 picks on ustrotting.com produced the exacta and trifecta, which paid good. This was how harness racing was when they had wooden bikes, fast pace meant closers win. The new bikes have severely damaged the sport. I loved the turf race.


Not for nothing but the "more exciting finish" opinion is the one that brought us synthetic surfaces for Thorougbreds. ;)

[pandy]

Not for nothing but the "more exciting finish" opinion is the one that brought us synthetic surfaces for Thorougbreds. ;)

I do well on synthetic tracks, the key is looking for stalkers who can finish and stay away from cheap speed.

[Sea Biscuit]

2:04:1 for 15000 pacing claimers. We are back in the 20s and 30s.

And please please don't give any new and fresh ideas to the Woodbine people as they are most likely to try it.

Sea Biscuit.

[LottaKash]

A nice "novelty", but please spare us anything further....

How serious can you get with the form of the horses....Not too, I think...Fun maybe, but dumb for "my" betting purposes...I am a traditionalist, of course...

I can forsee crashes on a much wider scale than normal, especially on a slick surface....

best.

[pandy]

2:04:1 for 15000 pacing claimers. We are back in the 20s and 30s.

And please please don't give any new and fresh ideas to the Woodbine people as they are most likely to try it.

Sea Biscuit.

Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.

[Sea Biscuit]

Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.

Pandy: I think you give too much credit to the super bikes as you call them for the faster times. The quality of horses and their breeding has much improved over the last 30/40 years which is the main reason for the faster times.

Besides you cannot stop the advancement of technology. The fact that we are discussing harness racing with each other on an internet forum is testimony to that fact.

Sea Biscuit.

[pandy]

Pandy: I think you give too much credit to the super bikes as you call them for the faster times. The quality of horses and their breeding has much improved over the last 30/40 years which is the main reason for the faster times.

Besides you cannot stop the advancement of technology. The fact that we are discussing harness racing with each other on an internet forum is testimony to that fact.

Sea Biscuit.

I respectfully disagree. Bret Hanover paced in 1:55 in 1965 (time trialed in 153.3), in a wooden sulky. Today's Harmer bike with the best wheels is 7 seconds faster, which would give Bret Hanover a 1:48 mark, which is about right for a horse that won 62 of 68 starts and raced against the likes of Cardigan Bay (losing twice but beat him several times). As you probably know, thoroughbreds have not improved, in fact, the thoroughbred breed has weakened, and there's no logical reason to assume that standardbreds have improved. There isn't a horse racing today that could beat Bret Hanover.

Technology should not have applied to harness racing, the wooden bike should have been declared the standard bike and if it had, the sport would be healthier. You have to understand something, I lived in NY and knew most of the professional gamblers who bet harness racing back in the 70's, big bettors. I'm talking about legendary gamblers. Everyone of them switched to thoroughbreds and stopped betting harness racing within 2-3 years after the introduction of the "modified sulky". With the wooden bikes, harness racing was BY FAR the best gamble a smart gambler could bet his money on. Now thoroughbred racing is. All of these guys won consistently until the bike change, so I'm not throwing around some nonsense here. My Best Bets which appeared in Sports Eye and then on my own sheet showed a flat bet profit of 25% over a 7 year period (at Roosevelt/Yonkers), but as the bikes became faster and faster, it became harder for me to pick the longshot winners that are necessary to show a profit. Fortunately, I have become an expert at picking longshot winners at the flats.

[Sinner369]

These days it is all about speed.........early speed .........harness and thoroughbreds.........the only value found is betting closers..........it is almost become a lost art (finding the closing horses).

[LottaKash]

These days it is all about speed.........early speed .........harness and thoroughbreds.........the only value found is betting closers..........it is almost become a lost art (finding the closing horses).

Not to be arbitrary, but I collect on some nice paying "speed" horses on a most regular basis...

For instance (not trying to redboard) last nite (Sun 7/26/09) at Mohawk, I cashed in back to back races on horses that won as the frontrunners in their respective races...8th-race-#10..Master Charge ($14.70)....& 9th race, #9- Secret Lives ($11.30).....Both of these horses were in "Form" and posessed pace numbers that were "very" advantageous...Both had shown the ability to take the lead when needing to, and yet were not driven that way in their last bunch of races....It was raining and the frontrunners were enjoying a clear and substantial advantage for most of the races up to and including those two races.....Master Charge brushed to a very quick command and said goodbye by 7+ lengths, and Secret Lives was hung out to the 3/8ths bidding and battling for the lead and yet still had the gamesness to win safely over the late charging 3/5 fave....

I am not trying to toot my horn here, but, I simply wanted to demonstrate that there are good values out there if you spend the time to look for those opportunities...Speed, despite it overuse and abuse can still be made to work for you, if you are patient and wait for the "right-spots" to arise...

Early speed like ill-perceived good form, can often be an illusion of sorts, and I think that the key is to find the legitimate ones who are in "TRUE" good form with "BEST" pace-numbers, in order to beat these "illusionists" (false favorites)...That is the combo that I use when looking for the above two-mentioned horses...

For me Early Speed and Position are the "anchors" that I need to ply my knowledge and skills effectively....I know, for me, when the speed is not holding that I often become confused and will not play as much as when I know I have something more concrete and substantial to rely on, and that would be speed....

Early speed can be a "friend or foe", depends on how one uses it, I guess...Some days I love it, and somedays I curse it, especially when I get it wrong..

Lately tho, at the "Big-M", Pocono Downs, and at Chester, it seems that the early speed is not as consistent as usual (weather as of late, may be the culprit here), but I still get my horses to perform ok....I think that the sharper "drivers" get a sense of what is happening on the day's card and adjust their race tactics accordingly and allow for the change in racing style "bias" for that day...

That is what makes this game so appealing and challenging for me...

best,

[arno]

I have to agree with Pandy.

What has hurt the handle in harness racing is the bike not the evolution of speed nor the aggresive driving of the reinsmen today.

In the hey day of harness racing 1962-1978 it was great to see the big gamblers (Mort F, Artie Beard etc ) waiting to play at night and just use their "play" money in the daytime at the TBreds track.

I remember Sports Eye at 35 cents before they had multi tracks or past performances. All they had was morning line and what they thought the horse would go off at.

Your best bets were amazing.
I'll never forget when I saw a claimer on a 1/2 mile go under 2 minutes.
It was at Roosevelt and it was Gene B Good with Carmine in the sulky.

Even the Meadowlands was great at the beginning with horses shippiing in from all over before Garden State made it a year round circuit. Wooden bikes back then no modified sulky.

Remember when BG's Bunny paced 154 in his Wilson elimination?
I thought a 3yr old could never pace that fast.
Nowadays 154 is an average time at the Meadowlands for a 15 claimer in January.

I've gone from 6 days a week at YR and/or Meadowlands to 5 days a week at Monmouth Park.

From Pandy's best bets to CJ's Pace Figures.

Next year I retire and it wil be 7 days a week at Monmouth.

[wilderness]

I must agree with Pandy here.

For support. . one only needs to reflect upon the changes in race times that took place with the Single-shaft sulky came into existence.

The modified sulky was the invention/design of the same person who introduced the Single-shaft, Joe King. After the SS was banned, King tried for approval of a dual shaft which mounted is a similar manner to the SS, although he could not get approval.
His further research resulted in the current modified design.

The King bike actually first appeared in 1958 and was tested at Buffalo Raceway on a horse named Baldwin Hanover with Levi Harner doing the driving.

Later came the Cheetah which was short lived also. Eventually banned, many claim unnecessarily.
The litigation (http://openjurist.org/174/f3d/733/super-sulky-inc-v-united-states-trotting-association) took a while and was expensive for the USTA.

[LottaKash]

I
I remember Sports Eye at 35 cents before they had multi tracks or past performances. All they had was morning line and what they thought the horse would go off at.

.

When I was so young, I would walk over to Penn-Station in Newark, and from the corner newstand would purchase a "National Armstrong" ($.50) for Yonkers or Roosevelt, and I would handicap their "comments" to death...then phone the "bookie" to get my bets in, and wait for results and the stretch call on AM radio that nite, or else wait for the results in the morning newspaper....:jump: ...The Red-Man was my hero...(speed)

best,

[wilderness]

Harness racing on the grass to debut at Rockingham Park (http://www.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=32903&z=1)

[wilderness]

When I was so young, I would walk over to Penn-Station in Newark, and from the corner newstand would purchase a "National Armstrong" ($.50) for Yonkers or Roosevelt, and I would handicap their "comments" to death...then phone the "bookie" to get my bets in, and wait for results and the stretch call on AM radio that nite, or else wait for the results in the morning newspaper....:jump: ...The Red-Man was my hero...(speed)

best,

LK,
You likely had that bookie cursing with all those "if comes" ;)

[LottaKash]

LK,
You likely had that bookie cursing with all those "if comes" ;)

Don.....Nah, he "liked" me....:D

best,

[botster]

Don.....Nah, he "liked" me....:D

best,

They are lighter for sure and aerodynamics I believe only help minimal IMO.The idea that the shafts "quickhitch" and are no longer tied down probably make the most difference IMO.Add in the previous two factors and it becomes a much bigger factor! This enables a horse to cut the turns smoother with less resistance.

As far as it being the biggest factor, I must disagree here.The addition of chemical warfare at an alltime high is why we see the biggest teletimer difference.The improvement of the breed is questionable, because we may be breeding faster horses to a degree, but they are not holding up!! It's a simple rule when you incorporate preracing with foreign substaces to make a horse go faster than he is naturaly able, it always causes consequences to that horse somewhere down the line.Think about it, or better yet, keep records on the "overnighters" at you local tracks and see how many dissapear never to be see again in your past performances.

It will never happen, but the day they level the field on preracing is the day we will see the teletimer drop.

Keep it real!

[pandy]

Thanks Arno

[castaway01]

These days it is all about speed.........early speed .........harness and thoroughbreds.........the only value found is betting closers..........it is almost become a lost art (finding the closing horses).

With the move to synthetic tracks, it seems thoroughbred racing is moving AWAY from early speed, not towards it. Of course on the dirt it's always nice to have speed, but there's less real dirt than there used to be.

[botster]

This is a great idea the trifecta pool was the largest of the night from what i understand.The prices were big, so that cannot be BAD.

On a bad note the M1 did a horrible job testing this out.The trainers were not happy at all, not only because the gate fiasco, but the turf conditions were way to deep!!

Horses such as METEOR MAN who is a chronic lame piece was hurting getting over that surface, and it should of had the reverse effects on him.There were others in there too, who were not taking to it.

The turf needs to be dry to a large degree, and not soggy, if they want to card the cheaper more problematic horses to compete.I would compare that turf to a true muddy dirt track that was not properly maitenanced.Suspensory ligiments are prone to be stressed on these type of surfaces, and I can guarantee that at least one of those entered that night has had previous issues with that injury, maybe it occured to some horse that night.

[LottaKash]

This is a great idea the trifecta pool was the largest of the night from what i understand.The prices were big, so that cannot be BAD.

On a bad note the M1 did a horrible job testing this out.The trainers were not happy at all, not only because the gate fiasco, but the turf conditions were way to deep!!

Horses such as METEOR MAN who is a chronic lame piece was hurting getting over that surface, and it should of had the reverse effects on him.There were others in there too, who were not taking to it.



The Standardbred horse is a much hardier breed of horse when compared to the much more "fragile" Thoroughbred, and yet I see that they are, breedwise, not well trained or adapted to this "surface"....So I say, why play with "fire", when there is no fire or a need for one, at that....

This is not good, as I see it...It will only spell problems further on down the line....No need for this, other than for entertainment and amusement purposes, and me, I could care less about it.....This is not the problem facing harness racing these day....

The Meadowlands has lost much of it's luster of previous seasons and generations...It has lost many quality entries to other tracks this season, and it shows, and it shows "scarily" bad this year...More than any year that I have seen....Yonkers Raceway, as a result of it's Casino has boosted their purses significantly this year, and has stolen many good horses from M1 as a result...Not to mention Chester and Pocono, with their Casino's, have purses equivalent or now even better the the Big-M....

I think that the Meadowlands, if we are to see it return as the "Shining Star" of Harness racing again, had better get more creative, and pronto, if they are to maintain what once was the place to be and compete, in harness racing...The are slipping into "Horse 3d Worldism" at an accelerated pace, IMO....

The quality of horses, especially "fast & fit" horses, was just not there for me this year....In fact it stunk this year....I played very little at this venue this season....A sad commentary to be sure...

I don't think "Turf" racing is the answer nor it is it going to change things, in any way, for the better...I surely hope they address the purse issue first, as I miss "my old" Big-M"...They must get the "BEST" horses available back, and quickly, at that....I think they are aware of this, and are working on it.....I certainly hope so...For me ,The Big-M, was always the finest and classiest Harness-Track in the world...It will be sad to see it cease being that....That bothers me...

best,

[botster]

The Standardbred horse is a much hardier breed of horse when compared to the much more "fragile" Thoroughbred, and yet I see that they are, breedwise, not well trained or adapted to this "surface"....So I say, why play with "fire", when there is no fire or a need for one, at that....

This is not good, as I see it...It will only spell problems further on down the line....No need for this, other than for entertainment and amusement purposes, and me, I could care less about it.....This is not the problem facing harness racing these day....

The Meadowlands has lost much of it's luster of previous seasons and generations...It has lost many quality entries to other tracks this season, and it shows, and it shows "scarily" bad this year...More than any year that I have seen....Yonkers Raceway, as a result of it's Casino has boosted their purses significantly this year, and has stolen many good horses from M1 as a result...Not to mention Chester and Pocono, with their Casino's, have purses equivalent or now even better the the Big-M....

I think that the Meadowlands, if we are to see it return as the "Shining Star" of Harness racing again, had better get more creative, and pronto, if they are to maintain what once was the place to be and compete, in harness racing...The are slipping into "Horse 3d Worldism" at an accelerated pace, IMO....

The quality of horses, especially "fast & fit" horses, was just not there for me this year....In fact it stunk this year....I played very little at this venue this season....A sad commentary to be sure...

I don't think "Turf" racing is the answer nor it is it going to change things, in any way, for the better...I surely hope they address the purse issue first, as I miss "my old" Big-M"...They must get the "BEST" horses available back, and quickly, at that....I think they are aware of this, and are working on it.....I certainly hope so...For me ,The Big-M, was always the finest and classiest Harness-Track in the world...It will be sad to see it cease being that....That bothers me...

best,

Remember the New Zealand horses have been racing on the grass for a long time.This can be done, and if it is done correctly, it will indeed benefit the horse,horseman and the betting public.

You need to generate something new to this game.The pools showed that there was interest, and people just do not want to see boring five dollar winners, twenty dollar exactas crossing the wire night after night.This race was a wild finish with good payoffs..THATS WHAT THE FANS WANT TO SEE, AND IT WILL INDEED BRING IN NEW ONES. Let's face it,there are NO FANS of this sport under fourty years of age, outside of those that are actively in the game.That inevitably spells DOOM, forget all the other reasons...THIS IS THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE RECTIFIED IMMEDIATELY IMO.

Keep it real!

[LottaKash]

Let's face it,there are NO FANS of this sport under fourty years of age, outside of those that are actively in the game.That inevitably spells DOOM, forget all the other reasons...THIS IS THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE RECTIFIED IMMEDIATELY IMO.Keep it real!

Dan, Dan, Dan, do you really believe that "Turf Harness", will bring in new blood and save this game ?

As for $5.00 winners, it never used to be that way at the Big_M, I've kashed many a nice number in the past.....The probelm as I have stated before, is, there are not enough of "fast and fit" horses to go around anymore...There simply is TOO MUCH racing going on "simultaneously", and none of the tracks want to give an inch on that, period, I think.... The same thing that is going to ruin Thoroughtbred racing is steadily closing in on the Trots as well....Perhaps a mite quicker too...Really, if a horse is racing 50 times a year, I think that is ridiculous...

Years ago there were seasonal "meets", and then they would close up shop....This is no longer true, as now, there are so many tracks vying for the "same" bucks, especially with simulcasting and ADW's....Something must change in order to save this game, the one that we love so much...But, I absolutely believe that "turf harness" is not the key, or even one of them....

P.S. I get double digit horses on a steady basis, just no so much at M1 anymore...

best,

[botster]

Dan, Dan, Dan, do you really believe that "Turf Harness", will bring in new blood and save this game ?

As for $5.00 winners, it never used to be that way at the Big_M, I've kashed many a nice number in the past.....The probelm as I have stated before, is, there are not enough of "fast and fit" horses to go around anymore...There simply is TOO MUCH racing going on "simultaneously", and none of the tracks want to give an inch on that, period, I think.... The same thing that is going to ruin Thoroughtbred racing is steadily closing in on the Trots as well....Perhaps a mite quicker too...Really, if a horse is racing 50 times a year, I think that is ridiculous...

Years ago there were seasonal "meets", and then they would close up shop....This is no longer true, as now, there are so many tracks vying for the "same" bucks, especially with simulcasting and ADW's....Something must change in order to save this game, the one that we love so much...But, I absolutely believe that "turf harness" is not the key, or even one of them....

P.S. I get double digit horses on a steady basis, just no so much at M1 anymore...

best,

You are still living in the past LK.The meets being run the way they are is what it is.Your horses "fast and fit" theory is not a legit one IMO.Horses are raced like machines and when one is gone their will always be another to replace it.

Gamblers want action for their money and this game is B-O-R-I-N-G!!! Go to the smaller tracks and they are even more B-O-R-I-N-G! Gamblers want to see these kind of payoffs and type of finishes.If the miles go in 2:04, do you think the old, or new fans, will claim what a boring game this is...NO, not if they are cashing a $2,000 triple!!!

Make them distance races on the grass for the overnighters and watch the people come back to the track.Have you been to the M1 lately?, you could throw a balling ball down the grandstand level and not hit anything with a pulse!

I am tired of hearing there is too much racing, it's like complaining about the chemists in the game having an unfair advantage, both will not change.It's time to get onto something that will get people back to the track.

[LottaKash]

You are still living in the past LK.
!
I am tired of hearing there is too much racing, it's like complaining about the chemists in the game having an unfair advantage, both will not change.It's time to get onto something that will get people back to the track.

Tired of it or not, there IS TOO MUCH racing...these are the facts as they are, not mine, OURS

Yeah Dan, I guess you are right, I am living in the past.... Let's Bring on The Turf Hosses......Then I will quit, and there will be one more gone from the game....

Perhaps your handicapping methods are of old as well, or maybe the tracks you play are not up to your standards....There are plenty of bargains still to be had...And, they can be had without turf-harness....I don't think racing is boring at all....It is all just a point of view, I guess...

best,

[Sea Biscuit]

Tired of it or not, there IS TOO MUCH racing...these are the facts as they are, not mine, OURS

Yeah Dan, I guess you are right, I am living in the past.... Let's Bring on The Turf Hosses......Then I will quit, and there will be one more gone from the game....

Perhaps your handicapping methods are of old as well, or maybe the tracks you play are not up to your standards....There are plenty of bargains still to be had...And, they can be had without turf-harness....I don't think racing is boring at all....It is all just a point of view, I guess...

best,

LK I will be right behind you in quitting this game, when they introduce turf harness with different distances. There will be more quitters to this game than they will bringing in new ones.

I suggest those you find this game boring, they should seriously consider the flats.

Sea Biscuit.

[LottaKash]

LK I will be right behind you in quitting this game, when they introduce turf harness with different distances. There will be more quitters to this game than they will bringing in new ones.

I suggest those you find this game boring, they should seriously consider the flats.

Sea Biscuit.

Ok Biscuit, still, the problem is the same with the flats, TOO MUCH RACING, and not enough GOOD horses to go around.....The short-fields for the flats are even much worse that the trots....Plus the fact that, at the flats they can get away with "scratching" a horse for any old reason....At the trot's you had better have a good reason to scratch a horse....Still, the problem, especially at the Big-M, for me, is the shortage of "Quality" horses that should be competing at that track....This year they lowered their purses, and lowered the standards, from some long standing "bottom Line"-entry level races...This year in particular they have attracted so many "sick, lame and lazy" horses.... And, no matter how good the trainer are, they are just not that competitive this year...I think it a problem that is only going to get worse.....Yes, racing at the Big-M, has gotten very boring & unplayable....Boring to the point that I play elsewhere now, and find it pretty good pickins' on most days elsewhere....Sure the summer "blahs" are upon us right now (which as a matter of course, happens every year during this season), with all these "green" 2yo's & 3yo's hogging up most mid-week cards, but other than that there are still some juicy situations that crop up and an alert player "does" have the opportunity to kash in on them, I know I do.....Just not at the Big-M any longer....Too bad about that...I just can't make any money there, any longer...too sad about that...

It used to be, most of the baby races were contested as "non-betting" events at the Big-M, and horses got their experience that way, or at lesser tracks, but now, they are taking up most of the card in middle of the week cards, and now are spilling over into the weekend cards....So with the shortage of good horses, that is what we are left with....That is boring, for sure....It used to be that there was an interspersing of 2yo and green 3yo races during any one day's particular card, but now it is almost "all" of those types dominating a full card....And we all know how predictable these types of races are.....

And, how about shortening the amount of races, on any card for most harness tracks...It seems that almost all of the tracks have now gone to 13-16 race cards.... For me, that is way "TOO" much racing, and it shows in the quality of the fields, that are going to post these days....Years ago when they were packing them in the stands, they had 9-races a day and that was it...

And you really can't say that the flats are any less boring or fruitful, because, as per another thread on this forum, the numbers say, that winning favorites are way up from previous years at most tracks.....Again, a shortage of good horses, I think, is the culprit....And yes, they already have "TURF" racing & different distance races.....

Too much racing, that is what I believe, and I will hold to that.....Bigger and more quality fields add up to better betting opportunities and "higher handles", imo....

So bring on the "turf buggies"....Maybe they could put spikes on the wheels for extra traction...:D....baloney ! :D ....Go Big-M, you show them how it should be done ! :D

best,

[Pacingguy]

I think turf racing for harness racing can work; it is being done in Ireland and the UK and some races are still on the turf down under. That being said, we need to have more than an occasional turf race if it is going to happen. In addition, as we can see from the Meadowland's last attempt, it would be best if they started the races without the car; like some races are still started in Europe. I know, it kind of reminds you of steeplechase starts.

It would just break the monotony and it presents another option for introducing harness racing at tracks that have mixed meets. You can race the trotters over the turf at those tracks while the runners keep the dirt course.

[botster]

I think turf racing for harness racing can work; it is being done in Ireland and the UK and some races are still on the turf down under. That being said, we need to have more than an occasional turf race if it is going to happen. In addition, as we can see from the Meadowland's last attempt, it would be best if they started the races without the car; like some races are still started in Europe. I know, it kind of reminds you of steeplechase starts.

It would just break the monotony and it presents another option for introducing harness racing at tracks that have mixed meets. You can race the trotters over the turf at those tracks while the runners keep the dirt course.

Exactly...the options are widespread on what you can do with standardbreds on the grass.The fifty and over crowd who are the vast majority who still bet this game always hate change and stubbornly refuse any new ideas that will bring new people to the track.Away from the M1 a person under thirty at the track are never seen!

My wife the other day told her longtime girlfriend "that we were going to the Hambletonian at the M1 on the eighth". Now mind you, her friend is in her late thirties and has owned riding horses all her life and has been involved in rescueing these animals for twenty years or more. She was totally dumbfounded in what my wife was talking about, and this with her knowing that I have trained harness horses.

People under fifty who are not involved in it actively, do not even know this sport even exists...Turf could very well be the way to the survival of this sport.Not for nothing, but when all fans born in the thirties,fourties, and fifties pass on to the "great racetrack in the sky"...THEN WHAT?

[wilderness]

My wife the other day told her longtime girlfriend "that we were going to the Hambletonian at the M1 on the eighth". Now mind you, her friend is in her late thirties and has owned riding horses all her life and has been involved in rescueing these animals for twenty years or more. She was totally dumbfounded in what my wife was talking about, and this with her knowing that I have trained harness horses.

botster,
As big as baseball is, I'd be willing to wager that there are people that never heard of Ruth, Ghering, DiMaggio, Mantle, Aaron and many others.

Same for basketball; Russell, Wilt, and many more.

How about boxing; who ever heard of Jimmy Braddock before the recent Russell Crowe movie?

Harness racing?
Billy Haughton, Joe O'Brien, Joe Coates, John Hervey, P. W. Moser, Ted Hansom, on and on. . . wager I could list hundreds.

Many of the former names in harness racing, I'm able to see via my websites, searches across the internet whenever their names are mentioned in press releases.

"Our audience" is quite small. The majority of our audience is focused upon this race and this number, or this combination of numbers and could care less of the background of the participants or the race.

BTW, while your standing in the Hambo crowd?
Try asking a few people is they ever heard of William Rysdyk (http://www.mi-harness.com/hof/0r0.html#WRYSDYK)?
I'll wager you'll get more HUH's than you will answers.

[wilderness]

Since you'll be in Joisey?
How about some Joisey harness racing questions?

"Jersey Skeeter"?
Is there a track at Newark? or Trenton?
How about Johnson Park?
Joe Carr?

[botster]

botster,
As big as baseball is, I'd be willing to wager that there are people that never heard of Ruth, Ghering, DiMaggio, Mantle, Aaron and many others.

Same for basketball; Russell, Wilt, and many more.

How about boxing; who ever heard of Jimmy Braddock before the recent Russell Crowe movie?

Harness racing?
Billy Haughton, Joe O'Brien, Joe Coates, John Hervey, P. W. Moser, Ted Hansom, on and on. . . wager I could list hundreds.

Many of the former names in harness racing, I'm able to see via my websites, searches across the internet whenever their names are mentioned in press releases.

"Our audience" is quite small. The majority of our audience is focused upon this race and this number, or this combination of numbers and could care less of the background of the participants or the race.

BTW, while your standing in the Hambo crowd?
Try asking a few people is they ever heard of William Rysdyk (http://www.mi-harness.com/hof/0r0.html#WRYSDYK)?
I'll wager you'll get more HUH's than you will answers.

My friend, I am talking about the sport itself.You can go to a third world country where they don't have running water and I will bet you they have heard of basketball.

An audience would first need to be aware that the sport exists before they can be interested in the participants.The fact remains humans love to gamble and could care less about the participants anyway.

I will ask some of the younger persons in attendance if they would rather cash a twenty dollar ticket or a two hundred dollar ticket.I will get back to you on their response.

[Pacingguy]

I used to love racing at Johnson Park as well as New Egypt, Tinton Falls and other fair stops in New Jersey. Stopping the fair meets was a big mistake. True there was no betting, but what better was is there to introduce young people to the sport?

Go up to Goshen on the 4th of July and get over 2,000 people there. How many tracks get those many people showing for the live racing?

A penny saved and a dollar lost.

[wilderness]

I used to love racing at Johnson Park as well as New Egypt, Tinton Falls and other fair stops in New Jersey. Stopping the fair meets was a big mistake. True there was no betting, but what better was is there to introduce young people to the sport?

Go up to Goshen on the 4th of July and get over 2,000 people there. How many tracks get those many people showing for the live racing?

A penny saved and a dollar lost.

Pacingguy,
Your Tinton Falls references brings to mind an interesting recollection that took some digging and lots of luck on my part to sort things out for anothers inquiry.

Tinton Falls was the home of "Willowbrook Farm".

There was an earlier farm with a similar name ("Willow Brook") that was located at Little Falls, NJ. Walter Wilkins owned "Willow Brook" at one point.

They are both historical farms that are long gone.

Here's a 2000 article on the sale of Willowbrook at Tinton Falls (http://hub.gmnews.com/News/2000/0317/Front_Page/f02.html)

[beaucap]

Slow times are better, the fast times caused by the super bikes is what killed harness racing, made it too speed favoring and also results in a lot of bad drives as drivers destroy each other's chances in senseless cut throat speed duels trying to get the lead.

Let's face it Pandy..the internet caused the downfall of the attendence at the harness track's. I remember...(not that i'm old)...you had to go to the track to make a bet, even if it was one race. As long as you were there you bet the rest. It was exciting getting together, with your gambling friends and trying to figure out the winner. Now you sit alone at your computer and make that bet without going to the track. I know the internet is somewhat a good thing, making money from your service and kinda talking to other people about harness racing. Let's face it, how many on this site go to the track at least 15 to 20 times a month instead of betting on the net. Everyone always wants to do better no matter what they are involved in, so why do you think slower times are better? There has always been bad drives no matter how fast or slow the horses are traveling. As for turf racing i agree with LK, some horses are meant to stay on the dirt. The better paying horses are always going to be there.....as long as you wait for them

[senortout]

Maybe I'm dense or something, but wouldn't repeated running of harness races over the turf basically ruin the course? The ruts those small diameter tires would wear into the grass would be quite disruptive....in my opinion. Wouldn't safety be compromised if wheels got caught in some of the deeper ruts at critical stages(turns for example)? After all, some of the drivers weigh close to 180 or so....they do run harness races over a MUCH FIRMER surface than thoroughbred, due to the trailing buggy, N'EST PAS?

[Sea Biscuit]

Let's face it, how many on this site go to the track at least 15 to 20 times a month instead of betting on the net.

15 to 20 times a month!!!! You must be kidding. I go to the track maybe 4 or 5 times a YEAR and I speak for most of my harness buddies.

With all the data about horses, trainers drivers etc etc stored in my computer and video replays at a click of the button why go to the track at all when you can bet from the comfy of your home. On the rare occasions I do go to the track, I feel all lost without my friend the computer.

I am sure all those who sit and complain about low attendance at the tracks are making their bets from home too.

Sea Biscuit.

[Pacingguy]

Down under, if the turf course gets soft, they move the trotters to the main track; just like they do for the runners here. I think if you have a firm turf course you may not have the problem with ruts.

Absolutely, the best horses would remain on the dirt. However, if you have a horse that is not doing well, racing on the turf may revive a career that was going no where. Horses for courses....

As for Willowbrook Farms that I remember; it was also known as 'The Home of the Hobos'.

[botster]

Down under, if the turf course gets soft, they move the trotters to the main track; just like they do for the runners here. I think if you have a firm turf course you may not have the problem with ruts.

Absolutely, the best horses would remain on the dirt. However, if you have a horse that is not doing well, racing on the turf may revive a career that was going no where. Horses for courses....

As for Willowbrook Farms that I remember; it was also known as 'The Home of the Hobos'.

Pappy you are a wise man.This has been done successfully already for years, so let's not squash the idea thinking this is some wacky idea someone thought of on a whim two weeks ago!

Put the cheaper horses on the grass, let them go over a mile, and watch the fans come back to the M1.Just move them back to the dirt when needed like the T-BREDS.This type of racing has been way too long overdue not to come to fruition here in the states.

The M1 is ready to go under, THE IMPOSSIBLE IS VERY NEAR! This needs to be done!

[botster]

Pandy is right on about the fast times resulting in a huge part of the downfall of the sport.Remember the Meads back in the eightees, things were totally different back then.The times were signifigantly slower and closers were way more prevalent and so was the bigger payoffs.They did alter the turns which have hurt the closers, but that goes along with all the other idiotic decisions they have made over the years. Faster times along with unfair preracing by the slew of guys we see today have made the M1 more speed favoring than ever.It's way to easy to pick the fastest horses resulting in all time low payoffs.

Slower times directly cause better racing for everyone with the exception of breeders.Will it bring people back to the M1?. Yes, I said it before and I will say it again.Gamblers and handicappers, both want to see good payoffs otherwise they will continue to exit the game.Is the bettor interested in faster times? NO, speed directly causes lower payoffs, resulting in persons going elsewhere for their gambling needs.

[Pacingguy]

I used to be a purist and loved the routine of the mile race on the dirt. What changed my mind? The fact we have so many favorites coming in. I am not talking about the 3-1 to 9-2 favorites, I am talking about the 9-5 and lower odds. Anything which will get the payoffs higher need to be considered.

There was a comment about too many races on a card 13-16 races. Yes, there is too much racing but I suspect the bigger problem than too many races on one card is the fact it takes to darn long to get through the card. People have little free time these days. Get a 12 race card started by 7:00pm and over by 9:30 at the latest. If you want to play more, there are simulcast signals or other tracks you can play. Realistically, how many tracks can you play in one day, at least at the same time? Remember when you were younger you went to a movie and dinner with a date? With the current dragging out of post times, it is the track or something else, not both.

[pandy]

They are going to ban the swim suits that have helped guys like Phelps break speed records that may never be broken. As you know, I feel that the modified harness has hurt harness racing severely and should have been banned a long time ago (back to wooden sulky). The organization that's in charge of swimming has it right! Racing is supposed to be about the performers, not the equipment.

As far as the turf race at the Big M, I did love the race because it reminded me of harness racing when it was a great sport, but I do not think that turf racing is the answer. Simply going back to the wooden sulky would bring back the big bettors who left within 2 to 3 years after the modified sulky was introduced and speed started to dominate.

[botster]

They are going to ban the swim suits that have helped guys like Phelps break speed records that may never be broken. As you know, I feel that the modified harness has hurt harness racing severely and should have been banned a long time ago (back to wooden sulky). The organization that's in charge of swimming has it right! Racing is supposed to be about the performers, not the equipment.

As far as the turf race at the Big M, I did love the race because it reminded me of harness racing when it was a great sport, but I do not think that turf racing is the answer. Simply going back to the wooden sulky would bring back the big bettors who left within 2 to 3 years after the modified sulky was introduced and speed started to dominate.

I have great respect for you Pandy, but I must say here, and in other sports, the main reason you are seeing drastic improvements and speed favoring miles is because of legal and illegal performance enhancers.I witnessed the change in the eightees when these substances entered the game and the bigger barns were beginning to start to cut deals with vets to supply them with these enhancers and lethal pain killers.These were not nearly as prevalent in the 70's from what I have heard from fellow horseman.

The addition of equiptment, changes to track surfaces,the improvement of the breed and the new method of driving one by the modern reinsman, are all secondary IMO,but do play there part.

Look at what anabolic steroids have done with our more popular sporting events today. I fear what we here in the media just scrapes the surface of what these atheletes are being administered into their bodies to compete at a higher level, or not lose an advantage.Imagine what they are administering to animals in a sport that is almost non-existant to the average person.

Keep on doing what you do,
Botster

[Sea Biscuit]

They are going to ban the swim suits that have helped guys like Phelps break speed records that may never be broken. As you know, I feel that the modified harness has hurt harness racing severely and should have been banned a long time ago (back to wooden sulky). The organization that's in charge of swimming has it right! Racing is supposed to be about the performers, not the equipment.

As far as the turf race at the Big M, I did love the race because it reminded me of harness racing when it was a great sport, but I do not think that turf racing is the answer. Simply going back to the wooden sulky would bring back the big bettors who left within 2 to 3 years after the modified sulky was introduced and speed started to dominate.

This is bordering on the ridiculous. I have a few suggestions of my own for banning.

1. They should ban all nuclear power plants and revert back to candles. They are dangerous you know. Remember the Three Mile Island and the Chernobyl incidents.

2. They should ban all athletes from wearing shoes in track and field events should someone get an unfair advantage from their Nikes, Pumas, Reeboks and Adidas's.

3. They should also ban those super charged turbo engines at Nascar and revert back to the Tin Lizzie. The races will go slow and there will be less accidents and less loss of life.

Just a few for now. They did'nt have to ban those swimsuits if they did. This is stupidity of the highest order. Let all the swimmers wear those same swimsuits so that nobody has an unfair advantage. It was that simple.

Just as you cannot stop the tides in an ocean from coming in, you cannot stop the advancement of technology. You just cannot revert back to the good old days. You can cry until the moon turns blue, it should not happen and will never happen.

Look around you and check the results charts across America and Canada. The long shots are there for the pickings and speed has nothing to do with it. Those big bettors you mentioned who quit the game, did so because of their inadequacies as a handicapper and player.

Sea Biscuit

[Sea Biscuit]

I have great respect for you Pandy, but I must say here, and in other sports, the main reason you are seeing drastic improvements and speed favoring miles is because of legal and illegal performance enhancers.I witnessed the change in the eightees when these substances entered the game and the bigger barns were beginning to start to cut deals with vets to supply them with these enhancers and lethal pain killers.These were not nearly as prevalent in the 70's from what I have heard from fellow horseman.

The addition of equiptment, changes to track surfaces,the improvement of the breed and the new method of driving one by the modern reinsman, are all secondary IMO,but do play there part.

Look at what anabolic steroids have done with our more popular sporting events today. I fear what we here in the media just scrapes the surface of what these atheletes are being administered into their bodies to compete at a higher level, or not lose an advantage.Imagine what they are administering to animals in a sport that is almost non-existant to the average person.

Keep on doing what you do,
Botster

Bots:

If I were to believe even for a second that there is skullduggery and crooks, cheaters and drugs involved with this sport, I would be the first one to quit this game. I am surprised that you have not done that so far.

Form horses win every day and I am happy to report that the majority of those races are won by horses who figure to win. There is maybe one or two races in a thousand which make my eyebrows raise.In a game where money changes hands there will always be people who try to take an unfair advantage but such races are few and far between and can safely be ignored.

There are a lot of hard working and good and honest people in this sport and we rarely talk about them but are quick to point fingers at the few bad apples and their doings in the sport.

Sea Biscuit.

[Ray2000]

I guess I'm entitled to MHO

If you play this game for fun or money, you must remember who your opponent is.

He's not the equipment maker, he's not the pharmacist, he's not the Track Superintendent, He's the guy standing behind you at the betting window, either real or virtual.

I also believe that the low payoffs are getting lower and the longshot prices are getting higher (many more over $100) is due to number of robots playing this game.

I'm not against turf racing but please, give the gambler a break, tell us (in the program) what equipment changes will be used.


"We linger in the ruins of the old tent."... Ralph Waldo Emerson, Compensation Essay

"The dice of God are always loaded." ibid

[pandy]

I have great respect for you Pandy, but I must say here, and in other sports, the main reason you are seeing drastic improvements and speed favoring miles is because of legal and illegal performance enhancers.I witnessed the change in the eightees when these substances entered the game and the bigger barns were beginning to start to cut deals with vets to supply them with these enhancers and lethal pain killers.These were not nearly as prevalent in the 70's from what I have heard from fellow horseman.

The addition of equiptment, changes to track surfaces,the improvement of the breed and the new method of driving one by the modern reinsman, are all secondary IMO,but do play there part.

Look at what anabolic steroids have done with our more popular sporting events today. I fear what we here in the media just scrapes the surface of what these atheletes are being administered into their bodies to compete at a higher level, or not lose an advantage.Imagine what they are administering to animals in a sport that is almost non-existant to the average person.

Keep on doing what you do,
Botster


Ok, here's my reply. First of all, steroids are the best enhancer and they are gone, yet the final times have now slowed. Also, when they raced with wood bikes, there were plenty of juicers. Remember John Barchi? There were quite a few guys who won a high percentage first off the claim and they had drugs, yet the horses weren't going 7 seconds faster like they do now. It's the bike, not the drugs. I wish they would run a few races in wooden bikes so people would understand this because a horse that goes in 1:53 with the Harmer would go around 2:00 in a wood bike. Another thing about drugs, lots of thoroughbreds are drugged yet they are NOT going faster than they did years ago. Why is that?

[pandy]

The big bettors I'm talking about were legendary gamblers and handicappers, professional bettors who made a ton of money betting harness racing at Roosevelt and Yonkers when they used wooden bikes. I'm just stating a fact, they all left when the sport changed after the modified sulky came in.

[Pacingguy]

Pandy is right on about the fast times resulting in a huge part of the downfall of the sport.Remember the Meads back in the eightees, things were totally different back then.The times were signifigantly slower and closers were way more prevalent and so was the bigger payoffs.They did alter the turns which have hurt the closers, but that goes along with all the other idiotic decisions they have made over the years. Faster times along with unfair preracing by the slew of guys we see today have made the M1 more speed favoring than ever.It's way to easy to pick the fastest horses resulting in all time low payoffs.


I must disagree that it is fast times which is killing racing. It is the lack of exciting finishes. Three or four horses accross the wire in 2:05 is just as exciting as three or four horses accross the wire in 1:52. We get less exciting races due to the uneven fields caused by horse shortages and conditioned racing.

Back when classified racing was used (I assume we all remember, FFA, JFA, A-1, A-2,...,C-3) the racing secretary put the fields together to ensure that horses were of even capability. A horse shipped in, the horse was classified by the racing secretary and depending on the horse's performance would move up, down or stay the same. Now, with conditions which at times can use a legal scholar to interpet, you get horses that stand out which makes the races less exciting and gives you standouts and low payoffs. Now with horse shortages, classified racing would be even more valuable to use.

Yes, we don't have much classified racing anymore. The trainers hate it because the 'big evil' racing secretary can give it to them. Truth is as I was told by someone in a horsemen's group is the racing secretaries are too damn lazy to do the work necessary to have classified racing. As for the trainers, if you want to classify them yourselves, there is the claiming option.

[pandy]

Slower times mean slower final halfs which makes for more exciting finishes, so it does have something to do with the time. However, yes, competitive races also help.

[botster]

Ok, here's my reply. First of all, steroids are the best enhancer and they are gone, yet the final times have now slowed. Also, when they raced with wood bikes, there were plenty of juicers. Remember John Barchi? There were quite a few guys who won a high percentage first off the claim and they had drugs, yet the horses weren't going 7 seconds faster like they do now. It's the bike, not the drugs. I wish they would run a few races in wooden bikes so people would understand this because a horse that goes in 1:53 with the Harmer would go around 2:00 in a wood bike. Another thing about drugs, lots of thoroughbreds are drugged yet they are NOT going faster than they did years ago. Why is that?

It's funny you bring up John Barchi, I have an old wood racebike of his that I used on a trotter years ago, it still has his name on the shaft.

I am not going to change your mind on this one and that is fair enough, that's what makes these forums interesting.When you have the big barns in harness racing setting the average time at a faster level, because of enhancers and use of pain killers, it is easy for the outsider not to understand exactly what is going on.

Now back to the bike issue, just like anabolic steroids, this is the mentality OF BOTH ATHLETES AND HORSEMAN. I wouldn't want to be at a psychological disadvantage and not use them as an athlete, or not use the Harmer bike, and other enhancers racing a horse for a living.This however does not mean IMO that a Harmer racebike is going to improve my ten thousand claimer four classes from a wood bike from the eightees.. It's easy to prove, say I were to time trial one at a mile with a prompter, I would never go seven seconds faster with the same horse in a Harmer from an older wood bike that hitched in...NOT EVEN CLOSE!.Again, the use of drugs is the primary result in why the sports average time is where it is at today.It has also made speed more dominant on all sized tracks.

I am not disagreeing with you, yes they make a difference, but IMO not anywhere near the extent of where your opinion stands.

I am off my soap box,
botser

[pandy]

If it's drugs, then why don't thoroughbreds go faster? They are using the same drugs. Also, if you look at a timeline, as each new bike came out starting from the modified bike until the Harmer, the times got progressively faster each time a new bike was introduced, and the wheels. Again, my point about Bret Hanover, who took a mark of 1:55.1, do you really think that a horse like Mister Big or one of the 1:48 pacers racing today would beat Bret Hanover by 35 lengths?

[wilderness]

Your fighting a losing battle Bob ;)

All the handicappers know that Bret was just a pig and Frank Ervin was an old man that couldn't steer a billy goat ;)

BTW, Bret Hanover TimeTrialed (TT in the records) in 1:53.3 (http://kdl.kyvl.org/images/kukav/1997av27/1709.jpg), however I'm sure your aware of that, as well as he was 1st or 2nd in 67 of his 68 starts, while racing just about every configuration or type of surface across all of North America.

Tot 68 62 5 1 $922,616

[Stick]

OK
Let's say for argument sake that a 1:53 horse would go in 2:00 if the bikes were changed back. We have a race where a driver like Sears or Tetrick has the speed horse in the race. Today he might go 28:1 56:2 124:3 1:53
My question is if he had the old bike and went 30 1:00 1:30 2:00 would someone catch him? It just seems to happen a lot. A good driver controls the speed and a poor one doesn't. The poor driver might go 29:3 59 128:3 and he gets beat. Will a better bike save him if everyone else is also on a better bike?

[botster]

If it's drugs, then why don't thoroughbreds go faster? They are using the same drugs. Also, if you look at a timeline, as each new bike came out starting from the modified bike until the Harmer, the times got progressively faster each time a new bike was introduced, and the wheels. Again, my point about Bret Hanover, who took a mark of 1:55.1, do you really think that a horse like Mister Big or one of the 1:48 pacers racing today would beat Bret Hanover by 35 lengths?

I want to convey firstly that I love this game while on both sides, handicapping them, and training/racing them.I secondly want to say that I know absolutely NOTHING when it comes to the runners.If you give me a copy of the Daily Racing Form, I wouldn't know which way was up...LOL.

I honestly don't know what they standardly test for in the t-breds.I do know what they test for in New York and New Jersey in the harness game and I can tell you with certainty it is comical to the say the least.The reason for this is because of cost and lack of competency here.I don't know anything about the testing in the runner industry,but I would have to strongly believe it must be vastly more strict and stringent than in the harness game.The reason is that firstly the runners are more widely known and infinitly more acceptable as a real sport.Secondly the purses and handle play a big factor.You know yourself the runners have an average purse than towers the average purse structure in harness racing.Money plays a huge part in why harness horses are racing with drugs that cannot and will not be detected in harness racing.

For heaven sakes we still have standardbreds racing for twelve hundred dollar purses in Mass. and Maine. The handles at these tracks are so ridiculous it would be embarassing to even put them in print.How do you think 80% or more of those steads race week after week, no less one night? The racing commision will always turn the blind eye in the harness game because a) The cost b)because many horses need help otherwise many tracks wouldn't have enough horses race causing them to shut their doors.

This is not a problem in the t-bred industry, in can't be, I have seen the handle and purse structures they make ours look terminal...LOL! When there is more money there are more funds to test for drugs.I have to believe that this is the reason.When the harness industry decides to test more strictly you will see the average time be lowered IMO.

I think about why it took the racing commision in Jersey so long to boot out the Ledfords.Every horseman and many of those betting the races knew something was up.Easy because of poor prerace and post race testing.The other big barns on the grounds forced them to take action on the Ledfords otherwise he would be still committing the same crooked practices.

[botster]

If it's drugs, then why don't thoroughbreds go faster? They are using the same drugs. Also, if you look at a timeline, as each new bike came out starting from the modified bike until the Harmer, the times got progressively faster each time a new bike was introduced, and the wheels. Again, my point about Bret Hanover, who took a mark of 1:55.1, do you really think that a horse like Mister Big or one of the 1:48 pacers racing today would beat Bret Hanover by 35 lengths?

Your talking about freaks of nature here Bob, especially when your discussing BRETT.That's like comparing GREYHOUND to LUCKY JIM!

I am sure what you say about your timeline with racebikes is true,but it is just coincidental IMO.The game really began to go down hill around the same time the new bikes came into practice.

Why do you think they have retention/detention barns in certain stake races in the harness game?Way too many guys know what to give "hours out", so it won't be detected and better yet they can't administer stuff that they KNOW WON'T BE DETECTED!.When the big money is on the line owners and everyone affiliated with a competitor in such a race wants all their competition to be clean for a restricted time.Preracing has taken over the harness game, if you can't compete your the odd man or woman out!

Every leading barn at every track today has a vet assisting him in a special way.These guys usually have a slew of horses and dominate because of this advantage.Are they mostly idiots who aren't good horsemen?...No most of them are very knowledgable but that knowledge without that assistance would VASTLY cut down on their earnings...LOL

[pandy]

At small tracks like Northfield, for instance, the guys don't have enough money to juice their horses, yet the final times are still very fast for the class. Drugs can't make a horse go 7 seconds faster. The positives in the thoroughbred sport are probably higher than they are in harness, and most of the leading trainers have the most positives. And Yonkers and other tracks now have high purses, so I don't get where you're coming from with the purse thing. You are over estimating the power of drugs. Yes, the guys who use drugs will have an advantage, but these drugs didn't result in the times being 7 seconds faster.

[botster]

OK
Let's say for argument sake that a 1:53 horse would go in 2:00 if the bikes were changed back. We have a race where a driver like Sears or Tetrick has the speed horse in the race. Today he might go 28:1 56:2 124:3 1:53
My question is if he had the old bike and went 30 1:00 1:30 2:00 would someone catch him? It just seems to happen a lot. A good driver controls the speed and a poor one doesn't. The poor driver might go 29:3 59 128:3 and he gets beat. Will a better bike save him if everyone else is also on a better bike?

Driving strategy today and especially over the last fifteen years has changed so dramatically that it would make that Frank Ervin guy roll over in his grave...LOL.Tough to answer this question, a poor driver is going to cost a horse a race in just about every situation.An average driver with the best horse will beat the better drivers much of the time.It's the old adage "it's what you have between the shafts" I guess.

Rating a horse on the frontend is not nearly as a big factor as it was years ago, especially on the bigger tracks with all the lead changes. Horses,especially higher class one's are so much more competative today, because of the speed factors we have been discussing here.I believe certain drivers just get along better with different types of horses, and that makes the difference.Rating them in holes and on the outside play a huge part today. Many horses today rate themselves on the frontend to a large degree if they are left alone.

A few drivers that really have impressed me over the last few years have been Andy Miller and Dan Dube.

Andy really is a phenominal driver, better than Sears IMO. and damn close to Tim Tetrick.His uncanny ability to get the unruly horses to go is absolutely amazing to watch.Dube can get one to go better than just anybody at the Meads.What a display he put on this meet with that mare DR. NABRINSKY!Even argueably the best driver ever to sit behind one John Campbell could not get this horse to go while she was pulling her sputtering act regularly during her miles this meet...JUST AMAZING!

[botster]

At small tracks like Northfield, for instance, the guys don't have enough money to juice their horses, yet the final times are still very fast for the class. Drugs can't make a horse go 7 seconds faster. The positives in the thoroughbred sport are probably higher than they are in harness, and most of the leading trainers have the most positives. And Yonkers and other tracks now have high purses, so I don't get where you're coming from with the purse thing. You are over estimating the power of drugs. Yes, the guys who use drugs will have an advantage, but these drugs didn't result in the times being 7 seconds faster.

Getting caught and "racing dirty" and getting away with it, are two different things bob.I can't speak for the t-breds, so I must take you on your own knowledge and word to be true... in which I do! As I said earlier, I have much respect for you as a handicapper of the harness game.

These trainers who are on top of the Northfield training standings do make money training horses for a flat daily rate...They "gyp", no doubt, but they do have an unfair prerace regemine that give them that advantage.Remember the trainer Bob Belcher who raced here in New York before he got tossed? He made his move back to Northfield a few years back and cleaned up before he was ousted again.Again, why do you think a guy like Virgil Morgan or Ron Burke would bother racing in condition races at Northfield from time to time...EASY MONEY FOR THEM! Northfield has the flying turns also in which speed up the aleady speed favoring half miler already.

This whole seven second thing has to be compared relatively.You can't take a super horse who took a mark from years back, and say horses on the average are all seven seconds faster today, because of the racebikes and tires.

In closing, I want to add...I always "go to bat" for you when I am asked of, "whom is the best pro handicapper of Harness"?

[Stick]

I think it would be naive to believe that horses are not given illegal things at tracks with smaller purses. At Maywood and Balmoral the purses have been very low for years. Do you know how many positives guys like Rucker and Joe Anderson picked up here? Where do you think Seldon and Eric Ledford were racing before they went to the Big M? 30 days here, 30 days there, put up another fake trainer's name and move on.

[botster]

Ok, here's my reply. First of all, steroids are the best enhancer and they are gone, yet the final times have now slowed. Also, when they raced with wood bikes, there were plenty of juicers. Remember John Barchi? There were quite a few guys who won a high percentage first off the claim and they had drugs, yet the horses weren't going 7 seconds faster like they do now. It's the bike, not the drugs. I wish they would run a few races in wooden bikes so people would understand this because a horse that goes in 1:53 with the Harmer would go around 2:00 in a wood bike. Another thing about drugs, lots of thoroughbreds are drugged yet they are NOT going faster than they did years ago. Why is that?

What about EPO? Do you have any idea how long this has been around? If I tell you it was around in the early ninetees at a small track such as Monticello way before the slots entered and the Ledfords were busted, would you believe me? Undetectable for all those years until only a few years ago.Now remember, these guys back then were racing for the same purses as Northfield is today.Pre racing has taken over the game and has become an art, and has become the shortcut for the trainers who want to get to winners circle.

This stuff by the way is still being used today with disasterous ramifications to the horse I should add.

The effects this drug has on many horses during a race are remarkable indeed.Take your leading barns at your local track with their massive amount of stock racing on these drugs and you have your primary reason why the average times are faster today.

[botster]

I think it would be naive to believe that horses are not given illegal things at tracks with smaller purses. At Maywood and Balmoral the purses have been very low for years. Do you know how many positives guys like Rucker and Joe Anderson picked up here? Where do you think Seldon and Eric Ledford were racing before they went to the Big M? 30 days here, 30 days there, put up another fake trainer's name and move on.

Of course they are Stick, remember this is the stuff that they get caught with because of errors in "hours out",second trainers and groom administering goofs."Slap on the wrist", and it's business as usual. Many naive persons here when it comes to preracing these days I suppose.

I still love the game and angles still hold up for me at the M1 and Mohawk/Woodbine from time to time.

[botster]

And Yonkers and other tracks now have high purses, so I don't get where you're coming from with the purse thing. You are over estimating the power of drugs. Yes, the guys who use drugs will have an advantage, but these drugs didn't result in the times being 7 seconds faster.

The fan who has not been around the inside of the game will always underestimate the drugs in this sport, because they haven't seen first hand what goes on behind the scenes.I have seen way too much, from a trainers standpoint over the years to ever overestimate what I have seen guys do in relation to preracing horses.

Now some may say jealousy plays a role in what I am posting and that is their rite, but I love the game and hate to see droves of good hard working people leaving the game, because of what has been going on over the years.

The cold hard facts are that more rigorous testing is not being done, because of lack of funds and plain ignorance.I am not making this stuff up as I go along.The harness industry, even with the slots are still not doing well enough for them to repair what has been damaged.Legitimate testing and investing time and manpower to clean up the game, cannot be done with an industry that is ready to go belly up!

A business that is barely surviving is never going to get funded for these things.So yes the financial status such as purses,handle,and attendance are directly coralated to why horses are "racing dirty" in this game.Stating this, I would have to assume that the runners, because of their better financial status must have more advanced testing.I could be wrong here, but that is what I am trying to get across.

[Pacingguy]

Why do you think they have retention/detention barns in certain stake races in the harness game?Way too many guys know what to give "hours out", so it won't be detected and better yet they can't administer stuff that they KNOW WON'T BE DETECTED!.When the big money is on the line owners and everyone affiliated with a competitor in such a race wants all their competition to be clean for a restricted time.

And this year the Meadowlands eliminated the detention barn for overnight events; due to the cost. This is absurd. You would think the track with the highest harness handle would want to protect the integrity of their product.

That being said, don't kid yourself. The runners are just as dirty as the trotters are with regards to medication. I suspect most of us reading this thread are big in harness so we are more attuned as to what is going on in harness racing. If we followed the flats more, we would be more cognizent about the runner's violations.

Also, they use drugs at the smaller tracks. The price for the medicine is adjusted based on the earnings potential; the same reason horse shoes cost more at the Meadowlands than they do say at Monticello.

[botster]

And this year the Meadowlands eliminated the detention barn for overnight events; due to the cost. This is absurd. You would think the track with the highest harness handle would want to protect the integrity of their product.

That being said, don't kid yourself. The runners are just as dirty as the trotters are with regards to medication. I suspect most of us reading this thread are big in harness so we are more attuned as to what is going on in harness racing. If we followed the flats more, we would be more cognizent about the runner's violations.

Also, they use drugs at the smaller tracks. The price for the medicine is adjusted based on the earnings potential; the same reason horse shoes cost more at the Meadowlands than they do say at Monticello.

I don't follow the t-breds, so if they have the same standard testing at Belmont as they do at Yonkers, then it has to be that they have just "bottomed out" at their average time all these years.A different breed could easily show different results in this manner.

I don't think the average time has dropped all that dramatically in the harness game over the last five years or so. I am thinking this may be the "bottoming out" of the average time for harness horses...Only time will tell I suppose.

You must factor in the other reasons why the average time has improved so much.The track surfaces in the sixties and seventies were not maintained in a manner to induce speed like they are today.Niatrosses time trial changed things forever in this manner.

We all agree that drivers were mostly "sit and wait" type of guys, until the "REDMAN" broke that barrier.The drivers today are virtually all speed minded.

The breed has to be factored into the mix to some degree.Breeders put emphasis on times when they are comparing studs and mares.Many people may not know this, but MANY barns have drastically stopped physically training their horses in between races!These same horses compete every week, with no signs of missing that training.How about layoffs?Is it just coincidence that horses can come off six month layoffs and win today?That was unheard of in the sixties,seventies and even eightees.

The preracing today plays the biggest factor.Does anyone think guys like Stanley Dancer and Bill Haughton were using dirty tactics, such as these leading trainers we see today currently are? Will Ken Rucker be looked at by his peers in twenty years in the same way these true horsemen and graceful individuals WERE AND STILL are today?

You have to also factor in the technology along with the preracing as well.Did Dancer have the benefit of equisisers,swimming pools,nebulizers,magnetic and shock therapy devices in aiding him to keep his horses sound?

All these factors along with the equiptment we have been using for the last twenty years to the present have played a factor,but there is no way you can claim it's the only factor ,or even the most prevalent factor in why the average speed has been elevated.

I don't like the idea of comparing super horses to prove my point, but I guess some think that is ok.With all due respect, to think NIATROSS would have gone seven seconds faster in his world record time trial with a harmer bike is just ludicrous!To even think four or five seconds is absurd, and many horsemen would tell you the same.Now this trial though the condition may not have been ideal, everything was done to assist the great one to break the record.Let's remember with the track being maintained as fast as it could be,driving style was not a factor (though some may debate this)...LOL, and let's just leave the preracing that day with Clint and his crew.The equiptment could never have been the seven second difference in why the horse didn't go in 42 and change.

[botster]

[QUOTE=Pacingguy]And this year the Meadowlands eliminated the detention barn for overnight events; due to the cost. This is absurd. You would think the track with the highest harness handle would want to protect the integrity of their product.

Thanx for pointing this out "guy"...Again proving my point! This is a game where officials just DO NOT CARE anymore, so the trainers and vets are doing what comes natural.

This is not realistic, but if you were to detain all the horses trained on the grounds at the M1, in a detention/retention barn, with the stake restriction rules they use to put into practice, you would undoubtably see almost everyone one of the leading trainers stock fall on an average of two to three seconds over a meets time.Many horses wouldn't be able to even race, and would have to find another way to live out their lives or head to the amish,or worse the slaughter!

This game has gotten this bad folks.You just can't stick your head in the sand like the "proverbial osterich" and go on not believing it.If it's fun and your making money betting them...fine,but let's take off the rose colored glasses, so we can get the big picture.

[wilderness]

The breed has to be factored into the mix to some degree.Breeders put emphasis on times when they are comparing studs and mares.Many people may not know this, but MANY barns have drastically stopped physically training their horses in between races!These same horses compete every week, with no signs of missing that training.How about layoffs?Is it just coincidence that horses can come off six month layoffs and win today?That was unheard of in the sixties,seventies and even eightees.

The preracing today plays the biggest factor.Does anyone think guys like Stanley Dancer and Bill Haughton were using dirty tactics, such as these leading trainers we see today currently are? Will Ken Rucker be looked at by his peers in twenty years in the same way these true horsemen and graceful individuals WERE AND STILL are today?

You have to also factor in the technology along with the preracing as well.Did Dancer have the benefit of equisisers,swimming pools,nebulizers,magnetic and shock therapy devices in aiding him to keep his horses sound?

botster,
Your mixing LOTS of apples and oranges here, and especially in a light that casual fans could easily misinterpret.

Are you aware that these pages are spidered by the major search engines and content appears in internet searches?

Some horses do win off layoff's, however you make it sound like the horse came from the pasture to the track!
NOTHING!
Could be further from the truth.

Generally speaking, even lame horses are "let down" casually.
Horses require a "bottom" of jogging and training miles before returning.
Any trainer that doesn't follow these procedures either takes a chance of destroying the any season long chance with the horse, or even injuring the horse further and perhaps permanently.
ALL the drugs in the world won't compensate for this required "bottom work".

A very good example from more than 100-years ago, is the famous horse Lou Dillon who had a remarkable season in 1903. However. . .the horse had been void the proper "bottom" training.
As a result, in 1904 there was a tremendous end to the horses career, known as "Memphis Gold Cup Scandal".

As far as what technology didn't exist for the old STARS?
1) Most of the larger stables (Haughton, Dancer, Miller and many others were not exactly "mom and pop" stables. They had multiple divisions of their stables across the country and handled by many locals), had their own vets on staff.
2) caretakers were a lot less expensive in those days (not to mention they were more experienced) and frequently ONE horse had multiple caretakers.

In summary. . .certainly, there are horses that win races with no "bottom" and racing at Scuba Downs for non-Winners of a cheese sandwich, however these horses have short seasons and even shorter longevity.

Also in reflection, as bad as the testing is today, in earlier years there was either no testing at all (when was the saliva test implemented?) or poor and inexpensive testing that was unable to verify Class One drugs, of which were NOT specifically being tested for.

BTW, although I know it was not your intention?
To mention Rucker in the same paragraph as Billy or Stanley is IMO an abomination.

[wilderness]

I should add that pools (swimming horses) may also be utilized for "bottom training" on older horses.

[botster]

[QUOTE=wilderness]botster,
Your mixing LOTS of apples and oranges here, and especially in a light that casual fans could easily misinterpret.

Are you aware that these pages are spidered by the major search engines and content appears in internet searches?

Some horses do win off layoff's, however you make it sound like the horse came from the pasture to the track!
NOTHING!
Could be further from the truth.

A very good example from more than 100-years ago, is the famous horse Lou Dillon who had a remarkable season in 1903. However. . .the horse had been void the proper "bottom" training.
As a result, in 1904 there was a tremendous end to the horses career, known as "Memphis Gold Cup Scandal".

When your dealing with the internet, anything can be misinterpeted yes,but I make no apologies to posting the truth, as I see it.

It's hard to put in obvious details sometimes, knowing that a new fan to this sport is very hard to find these days.Yes your right ,horses are always trained down off lengthy layoffs.The fact remains however, that the horses that were coming off layoffs years ago, and were trained down ,were not winning and performing nearly as well as they do today.

And yes, many horses have been ruined, because of not having the needed foundation under them to compete off the layoff.

[botster]

[QUOTE=wilderness]botster,


As far as what technology didn't exist for the old STARS?
1) Most of the larger stables (Haughton, Dancer, Miller and many others were not exactly "mom and pop" stables. They had multiple divisions of their stables across the country and handled by many locals), had their own vets on staff.
2) caretakers were a lot less expensive in those days (not to mention they were more experienced) and frequently ONE horse had multiple caretakers.

No apples and oranges here.Good help from even three caretakers per horse still cannot be as helpfull to a horse than breathing treatments,meds that help a horse recover from a race,and pain killers that we are using today.

Many of the top barns have multiple guys working for them Many of them listed as "BEARD" trainers, just in case they get caught with a positive out of town.Vets...same story here, but a bigger operation gets you more for your money, when it comes to the prerace today.A major investigation needs to be done on these guys.

You may be correct about the experience of the oldtime people.The sad results of the less knowledgable, and those those seen with very liitle natural talent today, is because of the moral breakdown of society in general.When you are given an opporotunity to cheat...MOST WILL!

[botster]

Also in reflection, as bad as the testing is today, in earlier years there was either no testing at all (when was the saliva test implemented?) or poor and inexpensive testing that was unable to verify Class One drugs, of which were NOT specifically being tested for.

BTW, although I know it was not your intention?
To mention Rucker in the same paragraph as Billy or Stanley is IMO an abomination.[/QUOTE]

Again this is a reflection to the work ethic, and breakdown of morality, especially honesty in this case.Trainers back then, such as guys we mentioned believed in honesty and fairness and most were friends on and off the track.Guys used their natural ability and horses raced on their natural abilty to a large degree...That was the "unwritten rule".

Much anamosity today against the competition.Trainers are tired of getting the "screws put to them" and are forced to exit.The bigger barns are taking over...You can call it manopolizing in every sense of the word.

[LottaKash]

This is turned out to be quite a thread for "harness racing", all stemming from a "turf" question....heehee

Little by little the truth is becoming manifest....There were many well taken points that have been made, imo.....

I still believe the "chief" underlying cause of the decline of harness-racing (in fact of all racing), is there are "too many venues" and "too many carded races" at each of those places, going on "simultaneously"....

It seems that "drugs" are the latest cause of the the causes, that have been mentioned....I believe that too, as well....

The problem with the shortage of "quality" horses is that I firmly believe that the tracks are "afraid" to make a bigger thing out of the "drug" issue, for two reasons in particular....

1...They are in fear of losing what is left of the dwindling pool of available horses....

2...The are also in fear of making a bigger issue of it, as the public's conception, whether founded or unfounded, would further erode the fan base as it stands now....

Unless the tracks get together and stand united with the current "state of the sport" being what it is, and try to remedy and keep what is still salvageable, then the end is pretty near I fear....Share the wealth "racetracks" !!!!!

And, as for "harness turf-racing", the sport is not suffering from a lack of "it"..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think another way to create more competitive fields (more bunched up finishes vs. many runaway winners), is to simply manicure the tracks to to be less speed favoring.....both "early" and "overall"

We all know how the track is affected during and/or the next day after a "rain" or snow or freeze....Perhaps they could treat the tracks to be a less early speed favoring affair, as in weather or temperature related instances such as these....

Or maybe the turns could be "banked" better and the "turns" cut so they are more rounder, thus allowing horses that are making bids on the outside, less likely to lose so much precious ground and momentum on the corners....At some tracks the turns are almost "square" like, and many horses lose so much ground and momentum as a result.....I think that this is a "fix" that could easily be managed by any track that is serious about creating more competitive racing...And more competitive races might just save the fans and players that we still have or even bring in more fans in the process....

Other than that, I just don't know anymore.....I hope someone is listening to us....I really do....

best.

[Pacingguy]

Just a little information. The recent turf race at the Meadowlands had the highest handle of the night in WPS and exotics even after refunding for the non-starter. Curious to know if it was the novelty of it or the thought you could get a bigger payoff. The only way to know would be to try it again.

[botster]

Just a little information. The recent turf race at the Meadowlands had the highest handle of the night in WPS and exotics even after refunding for the non-starter. Curious to know if it was the novelty of it or the thought you could get a bigger payoff. The only way to know would be to try it again.

I had posted the exotic intersest early "guy", and yes the regular bettors must have thought it could be something new from the "same old thing".You must create interest with some new ideas to get the fans motivated to gamble more money these days.This was agreat idea,work out the kinks, and start stretching the distances out for the lower class horses.

[classhandicapper]

Pandy,

I was also a harness fan around the time the "modified sulky" was first introduced. If anything, I made more money when it was first introduced because it was apparent within the first week that the handful of horses that had it were moving forward significantly. So I took advantage. Afterwards, I eventually switched to T-breds full time because I liked the sport better.

I don't understand why you think the gambling profits dried up after the new sulky was introduced. If all the horses are using it, I don't see any disadvantage to the handicapping process. I think the profits are tougher to come by in both sports because the information is much better, many excellent books have been written etc... and the average price of winners is falling (in both sports). The same thing is even happening in online poker. The games are getting much tougher.

I'd like to hear your theory.

[LottaKash]

Pandy,

I was also a harness fan around the time the "modified sulky" was first introduced. If anything, I made more money when it was first introduced because it was apparent within the first week that the handful of horses that had it were moving forward significantly. So I took advantage. Afterwards, I eventually switched to T-breds full time because I liked the sport better.

I don't understand why you think the gambling profits dried up after the new sulky was introduced. If all the horses are using it, I don't see any disadvantage to the handicapping process. I think the profits are tougher to come by in both sports because the information is much better, many excellent books have been written etc... and the average price of winners is falling (in both sports). The same thing is even happening in online poker. The games are getting much tougher.

I'd like to hear your theory.

Class, I believe that is it, in a "nutshell"....It is a tougher game, and, for the reasons that you have stated....

I just wait for my spots to pop up, and they do, they "always do", it is as simple as that, for me anyway....The crowd makes mistakes, just not as often as it once was... And, I try to be around when they do...

Luckily, there are "still" some running lines and situations that the crowd is still not sure of, or cannot interpret quite so good, especially when hidden or forgotten about, and, that is what saves it for me....If not for those things, I think I would quit for good...

.....

best,

[Bosco104]

I have to agree with Pandy. There is no doubt that the cart has cut the time of harness races. I watched Bret Hanover 4 times in '66. In 2 of them he could have won by more. Breeding might account for one to two seconds, but the cart is the majority. What made Bret Hanover "better" than any before or after is charactor. He had a pet's instinct, an ability to learn and retain, and the discipline. Stanley Dancer knew this. True Duane beat Bret in a longer race (mile an an eighth). Cardigan Bay and Adios Vic got to him also. The one I saw at Sportsman Bret won by 8.

[Hanover1]

I used to love racing at Johnson Park as well as New Egypt, Tinton Falls and other fair stops in New Jersey. Stopping the fair meets was a big mistake. True there was no betting, but what better was is there to introduce young people to the sport?

Go up to Goshen on the 4th of July and get over 2,000 people there. How many tracks get those many people showing for the live racing?

A penny saved and a dollar lost.
Im a has been at the Bloomsburg Co. fair in PA. Now that was fun......

[wilderness]

Im a has been at the Bloomsburg Co. fair in PA. Now that was fun......

This site has PA Fair video (http://www.youtube.com/phrc08) for 2008-09.

[pandy]

Pandy,

I was also a harness fan around the time the "modified sulky" was first introduced. If anything, I made more money when it was first introduced because it was apparent within the first week that the handful of horses that had it were moving forward significantly. So I took advantage. Afterwards, I eventually switched to T-breds full time because I liked the sport better.

I don't understand why you think the gambling profits dried up after the new sulky was introduced. If all the horses are using it, I don't see any disadvantage to the handicapping process. I think the profits are tougher to come by in both sports because the information is much better, many excellent books have been written etc... and the average price of winners is falling (in both sports). The same thing is even happening in online poker. The games are getting much tougher.

I'd like to hear your theory.

Harness racing is much different than it was when they used the conventional sulky. First of all, you didn't have all of these crazy moves so your horse didn't get parked out or shuffled out of contention like they do now. But the main thing, if you bet on the best horse and it could finish, it didn't matter what post it had or how much speed was in the race. I used to bet closers from the outside posts when I knew I had the horse, and they could win. Now, the final times are too fast because of the bikes, so outside closers rarely have a chance. Also years ago if there was a lot of speed in a race, you bet a closer and the speed backed up. Now, sometimes there's an insane pace and the leader hangs on. The sport is drastically different. I used to know a lot of smart handicappers who won regularly. Not anymore. I'm not saying that you can't win, I still show a profit, but it's tougher, and the racing simply isn't as much fun because you can't figure out the race shape.

[wilderness]

and the racing simply isn't as much fun because you can't figure out the race shape.

Nothing has ever been stated any truer.

How can you predict "the pace of a race" and how that same pace develops, if your unable to determine which horses are going to be leading?

[pandy]

Nothing has ever been stated any truer.

How can you predict "the pace of a race" and how that same pace develops, if your unable to determine which horses are going to be leading?

Good point. I remember handicapping Roosevelt and Yonkers years ago, and if a good driver had a horse with speed from post 7, that horse would be the "last horse to the lead." If you liked the horse, you knew that you could bet it and it would be cutting the mile, especially if the horse had a good gate driver, like the Redman, Loosh, Joe Marsh, Jr., Herve, Daigneault. Now, on most half mile tracks, outside leavers get parked the mile a lot because the drivers from the inside don't want to give up the lead due to the speed favoring nature of the track. This causes havoc and the race just falls apart. A lot of the bizzare longshots that win are horses that don't figure but sneak in off a pace fallout because the drivers got into a senseless speed duel. Again, if they still used conventional bikes, this would not happen because with the old bikes, the drivers had to save something for the end. That's why you rarely saw insane fractions back then. Again, this is the main reason why the big professional bettors left the sport for thoroughbred racing. These guys need to see some logic with the way the race is run. I also bet more money on thoroughbreds now.

That being said, I sometimes wonder if the best way to bet harness racing is to not use the pps. I think that just have a good system and betting the overlays is probably the way to go.