Should this guy be ruled off for repeated drug violations?

[rrbauer]

This is pretty astounding stuff. Where are the people who are supposed to be "cleaning up" the game?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/ziadie-blames-drug-violations-on-chaos/

I have already notified the management at Tampa Bay Downs that I will not bet on any race in the upcoming 2009/10 meet that Kirk Ziadie has an entrant in. This is a track that ruled off a handful of jockeys based upon hearsay evidence. How can it let this drugstore cowboy operate there in light of his repeated violations?

[Black Ruby]

When a horse gets disqualified, the monies get redistributed, except to the horseplayer who had a ticket not including the offender. Why not make trainers be bonded so that when disqualified for a med violation, the trainer's bond pays the players who now hold winning tickets? Bet there wouldn't be nearly as many med violations if this were the rule.

[point given]

When a horse gets disqualified, the monies get redistributed, except to the horseplayer who had a ticket not including the offender. Why not make trainers be bonded so that when disqualified for a med violation, the trainer's bond pays the players who now hold winning tickets? Bet there wouldn't be nearly as many med violations if this were the rule.

Sounds like a fine idea, where do i sign up :ThmbUp:

[Cangamble]

This is pretty astounding stuff. Where are the people who are supposed to be "cleaning up" the game?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/ziadie-blames-drug-violations-on-chaos/

I have already notified the management at Tampa Bay Downs that I will not bet on any race in the upcoming 2009/10 meet that Kirk Ziadie has an entrant in. This is a track that ruled off a handful of jockeys based upon hearsay evidence. How can it let this drugstore cowboy operate there in light of his repeated violations?
The guy is making a complete mockery out of horse racing.

[castaway01]

I know some don't believe in speed figures and "jumps" in figures, but anyone who has seen what this guy has done in the past would have to be suspicious, even before the long list of drug infractions.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

....the "racing fan and horseplayer" that brought this to Ray's attention..... anyone we know?

Thanks for posting, Richard. :ThmbUp:

[Spectacular Sid]

Anyone check to see if this fellow Ziadie is in the Guinness Book of Records? It's pretty imnpressive for just six years as a trainer.

[DanG]

Reading the embarrassing size of the fines (or lack there of) makes my head explode. :mad: What was it…30 rulings at 13k total? Don’t we have laws against defrauding the public in a financial transaction? Thanks for posting this and to Ray Paulick for using his forum wisely.

We are in desperate need of our own Howard Beale…
http://www.firstcapital.com/blogs/mark_sunshine/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/mad-as-hell1.jpg

[joanied]

When I read about this SOB, Ziadie, I nearly fell off my chair...I was gonna post the story over on the thread about Dutrow's suspension when I was there to post the link to the Assmussen hearing in Texas...then, as soon as I saw the 'headline' for this thread...I knew it was about Ziadie.

Incredible this guy is still training horses...what in hell is wrong with Tampa...this guy needs to be rulled off...Point Given's suggestion for bonding trainers sounds pretty damned good to me...and to boycott any race Ziadie has a horse in is another excellent idea :ThmbUp: ...
well, now that this cat is outta the bag...maybe Tampa will kick his ass outta there.
He's a disgrace, and I feel sad for the horses under his so called care.
I swear :mad:

[Space Monkey]

Why the venom on Tampa?? Most of his violations were at Calder and he has them from Delaware to Minnesota. I think the racing establishment in general should clamp down on this guy.

Hey, bond the trainers and lets all hold our tickets!!! How cool would that be :cool:

[matthewsiv]

It is time to look at all trainers with super ratings.
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Greyfox]

Years ago that guy and the other super chemists would be waltzed off the track.



http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/properties/bizarro/art_images/tn_cg4a482caf8f8e50.jpg (http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=35697).

[joanied]

Why the venom on Tampa?? Most of his violations were at Calder and he has them from Delaware to Minnesota. I think the racing establishment in general should clamp down on this guy.

Hey, bond the trainers and lets all hold our tickets!!! How cool would that be :cool:

OOOPPPSSSS:blush: My bad...I meant Calder:bang:
And yep...every track he's ever set foot on should ban him...he's a disgrace!

[wizard_of_odds]

What a joke this guy is!! This guy needs to be banned for good.He must have some heavy money behind him to keep getting off. Not fair to the hard working people who have to run against him.I dont understand why they would let him stay in the game?..Who does he think he is..

[fmolf]

What a joke this guy is!! This guy needs to be banned for good.He must have some heavy money behind him to keep getting off. Not fair to the hard working people who have to run against him.I dont understand why they would let him stay in the game?..Who does he think he is..
he can always get a job at duane reade or cvs......It never ceases to amaze me when i hear things like this....In nascar mayfield was suspended immediately.What if his horses break down seriously injuring his jock or another jock in the race!I bet on more than a few races at tampa this year ....not next meeting though..nor calder either

[BIG49010]

The way horses change form at Tampa, I would question if they test at all.

[bishlap]

[QUOTE=rrbauer]This is pretty astounding stuff. Where are the people who are supposed to be "cleaning up" the game?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/ziadie-blames-drug-violations-on-chaos/

it's a losing battle... my only suggestion is to handicap for the druggies.

[kenwoodallpromos]

As long as the fines are 3 or 4 suspensions running CONCURRENT INSTEAD OF CONSECUTIVE, there is no disincentive to jacking up all his horses. Some of his violations are in the same limited time periods, for the same drugs, different horses.
Being able to dope up 3 different horses at the same time with the same drug and getting only 1 suspension in FLorida, It would not surprise me if Tom Schell is the only honest trainer in the state!
Don't the tracks have the power to use the morals clause in the licenses to bar them totally?

[takeout]

What a sham all of this stuff is. Trainer suspensions are a complete joke. I wonder why they bother testing at all.

I actually doubt that this guy is all that unusual. Many more records like his could probably be found and some maybe a lot worse. Maybe that’s one of the reasons the rulings aren’t more assessable to the public.

I also wonder how much stuff they don’t get caught for. I’ve charted out a few trainers over the years that have done some pretty amazing things. I’ve also seen a lot of them come to a fairly sudden stop. Did they get “the talking to” from the stews, or what? I’m always baffled when I see one of these types suddenly forget how to train. :rolleyes:

[CincyHorseplayer]

For the record I bet every Saturday throughout Tampa's winter/spring meet and I had more success betting against Ziadie horses than being surprised by their turn of form.Their prices were ridiculous when they didn't figure.

But as I said I didn't bet everyday.

[jotb]

Only Ziadie! I believe Jamie Ness was under investigation in Tampa as well. Not sure of that outcome but you have to wonder about Florida racing. There is no horse racing commission. With so many jockeys that filter into Florida from either Mexico or South America, I wouldn't be surpised if Florida would give a jockey license to someone without a visa or social. Just imagine wagering on an illegal immigrant jockey.

[DanG]

If anyone has any brainstorms on the medicating of thoroughbreds, may I suggest posting on the DRF Steve Crist blog as he is inviting comments for an August speech on the issue.

Posted by Steven Crist on Jul 2, 2009 ~ I've been invited to speak at the Jockey Club’s Round Table Conference in Saratoga Aug. 23 about “the way Thoroughbred racing medication issues are perceived by bettors, the public and the media.”

[JustRalph]

For the record I bet every Saturday throughout Tampa's winter/spring meet and I had more success betting against Ziadie horses than being surprised by their turn of form.Their prices were ridiculous when they didn't figure.

But as I said I didn't bet everyday.


I bet against him a few times and won........but just the fact that he was in a race at Tampa was a pain in the ass........... there is another female trainer down there that was the same way........ but she wasn't as prominent this year............

I started looking elsewhere, when I used to love Tampa........I don't get enough time to play anymore and when I do I don't want to have to worry about guys like this beating me because I haven't been following the meet as close as I used to.........

[statepierback]

There will always be trainers who will be ahead of the curve and hit some home runs. That's not changing. The structure of how the industry deals with this needs to be adjusted. Testing, fines, violations, the courts, rules etc, ect, need some tweeking.
What if we make everything legal. Tell the public exactly what today's treatment will be . Full discloser. We may learn a few things to help rebuild the structure to a more functional system.
Cruel? Allow the horseman to to police themselves for awhile. Allow the vets to study for the future. And give the betting public a better shot at cashing a ticket. :confused:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Either there are not enough honest trainers to standup to the cheaters or the lax rules, or else racing is so riddled with "track politics" that rules cannot be changed.
One racing rule that I know has been enforced since I have been in the game is "Divide and Conquer".
"Thank you for the $15 billion in handle. Now get out of our face as we increase purses."

[fmolf]

There will always be trainers who will be ahead of the curve and hit some home runs. That's not changing. The structure of how the industry deals with this needs to be adjusted. Testing, fines, violations, the courts, rules etc, ect, need some tweeking.
What if we make everything legal. Tell the public exactly what today's treatment will be . Full discloser. We may learn a few things to help rebuild the structure to a more functional system.
Cruel? Allow the horseman to to police themselves for awhile. Allow the vets to study for the future. And give the betting public a better shot at cashing a ticket. :confused:
A very interesting idea.That would at least level the playing field except for the safety of the horses and jockeys.I believe more breakdowns occur because of medications(Legal and illegal)so this would pose an added hazard to both jockey and horse.
I think they need stiffer suspensions and every horse that tests positive in a trainers barn should also be suspended from competition.This would hit the owners where it hurt in the pocketbook as the bills remain constant but no money coming in via purses.Trainer suspensions alone are a joke these super trainers nowadays can run their operation from afar with a cell phone and a spare battery. I think by putting the owners horse on suspension the owners would force the trainers to clean up their act or lose horses to other good "clean" trainers

[Black Ruby]

If an owner uses a trainer with x number of suspensions with y time, how about suspending the owner, too, on the next violation? That would put some pressure on. Of course, Curlin and Rachel would probably never have been sent to Assmussen.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Great idea, except that TRACKS and boards themselves have extreme fear of many kinds of disclosure. They do not publish a number of helpful things, like workout comments; finish times; meds; past violations; who the exercise rider is; necropsy info; numer of breakdowns and injuries listed by trainer.
The whole idea of the bread and butter of racing, claiming, is secrecy, so you get a pig in a poke and random luck if the horse you claim is fit. That is juast another way racing favors the old school and prolific trainer and owner!
IMHO, since Paulick knows the violations and prints them, someone should start a subcriber pay service to access violations by trainer coupled with assistant trainer violations. A good list of overage violations may give a good idea of the significant "stamina" drug that a stable is using.
You can get an idea of this trainer's drug of choice by his violations.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I am saddened and shocked at what I have read.

[Jeff P]

I am saddened and shocked at what I have read.I am saddened too. However I am not the least bit surprised at what I have read.

It has to stop. Racing needs to be regulated in such a way that there are no questions whatsoever about the integrity of the game.

Obviously we don't have that now.

http://www.horseplayersassociation.com


-jp

.

[Rocklane]

If anyone has any brainstorms on the medicating of thoroughbreds, may I suggest posting on the DRF Steve Crist blog as he is inviting comments for an August speech on the issue.

What is your take DanG? I understand from your earlier post that you feel the fines were not an effective deterent. What else should be done.

I actually do not like the fact of how cynical I have become, but I have suspicions even when I win.

[riskman]

When a horse gets disqualified, the monies get redistributed, except to the horseplayer who had a ticket not including the offender. Why not make trainers be bonded so that when disqualified for a med violation, the trainer's bond pays the players who now hold winning tickets? Bet there wouldn't be nearly as many med violations if this were the rule.

I do not think you will find a Surety that would issue a Guarantee Bond for an illegal act.

[phatbastard]

just wondering, how many of those wonder horses may have been owned by this guy

http://www.tampabaydowns.com/Racing/NewsandMedia/OwnerBios/RichardAverill.aspx

[Spectacular Sid]

Here's a funny line from a Blood-Horse story about Ziadie: “When you are on top, everyone wants to see you fall,” he said on July 9 when asked about the heavy suspension.

The HEAVY SUSPENSION?

[Valuist]

Where is the constantly in denial crowd? The ones who whine about too many posters claiming too many trainers drug horses? Yeah, its normal to see a guy win with 45% of his starters (and we aren't talking small sample sizes) like he's had at meets in the past. Hopefully the in denial crowd is finally waking up that these guys are blatant cheaters.

[Grits]

I like this one the best. Though, I'd love for someone to explain to me the correlation between one's accounting and one's arm length list of illegal raceday postives.

According to the hearing report, Ziadie told DPMW officials that “one reason for all of his drug positives was that his accounting and management is ‘in chaos.’ He stated that he has since hired a new accountant.”

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but my accountant knows --0-- about veterinary medicine.

Maybe the new accountant will be a veterinarian holding an MBA.

Its oddly convenient how often trainers BLAME their accountants. If you don't know how to run a business, you have no business in business.

This man is dumber than a stump. He doesn't even have enough sense to construct a believable lie.:faint:

[cj]

This man is dumber than a stump. He doesn't even have enough sense to construct a believable lie.:faint:

Unfortunately, he is smart enough to fleece fellow horsemen out of large sums of money.

[Cangamble]

Unfortunately, he is smart enough to fleece fellow horsemen out of large sums of money.
You don't need brains to do that, just desire to do so.

[DanG]

What is your take DanG? I understand from your earlier post that you feel the fines were not an effective deterent. What else should be done.

I actually do not like the fact of how cynical I have become, but I have suspicions even when I win.
I wish I had an all inclusive answer Rock. In fact; I wish I had ANY answer! :blush:

I just spout off without having any real solutions that I think are viable to be honest. Someone much smarter then myself (that’s leaves 99% of the population) will eventually lead this sport from a national perspective and I just hope it happens in our lifetime.

Speaking of ‘spouting off… :D

Drugging race horses has been around since wagering has been involved. It’s just a fact of life when humans and potential wealth meet; someone will try and gain an edge by whatever means. Were obviously not alone in this fact as anyone who thinks the Olympics with their sophisticated testing are actually clean is delusional.

Follow the money…

Drug creation will ALWAYS outpace drug testing because that’s were the greatest profit is. The suspensions as currently administered are borderline useless. Virtually every single trainer who most cappers in a blind poll would label as serious move-up types have had multiple violations of various degrees. We didn’t need the positive tests btw to verify what we already “knew”. The suspensions are little more then forced (and normally) long overdue vacations and between cell phones and digital video they can still perform their stable managing duties from the Bahamas.

Follow the money…

Most people see issues through their own narrow prism and I’m certainly guilty of that. The players perspective is my concern and when a recent claim is laced with cobra venom, EPO, their genitalia rubbed with cayenne pepper, electricity shot through their body, ailing joints tapped, milkshakes to artificially force them beyond natures pain threshold etc…etc…Its FRAUD on the betting public and the defenseless animal is left to suffer the consequences and it gives the wing nuts at PETA more ammunition to lobby against us.

Follow the money…

Money…money is what drives people to cheat and severe fines is what ‘may’ :rolleyes: make them possibly think twice. It’s the classic domino effect on the backside of owners wanting to win and trainers trying to keep them satisfied by whatever means to keep paying that day money. If trainer X is winning at 53% for a meet (impossible btw in real terms) then owner Y might want to lead his string to the dark side.

The track is also in a precarious spot; if you’re in the mid-Atlantic region (long believed to be a haven for the super-trainer) filling races is dog eat dog. If you start playing the bad cop and drop the hammer (without fellow jurisdictions following your lead) good luck filling races. The vans and syringes will be leaving in the middle of night and your superiors will be looking for a new sheriff.

Follow the money…

In an ideal world; you put such teeth in the fines that they actually wind up funding the testing process. Test results MUST be published btw. Even in our major races where testing is being done the test results are being kept “hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnall's front porch” as Carson used to say. It’s our dirty little secret that no one really wants to discuss in public. All the things we often discuss that seem so far out of reach. A centralized policy for a sport that has 37 different rule books.

Everyone involved has so much to lose / and or ultimately gain…

• The animal who provides the show suffers.
• Defrauding the betting public.
• The clean trainer / owner are dealt marked cards as a reward for having integrity.
• The rider risks his life when the animal can no longer read natures signals to shut it down.
• We continually give ammunition to groups who want our great sport abolished and our political clout of yesterday is increasingly in the pocket of casino, lottery and other narrow minded lobbyists.

Ultimately a waste of bandwidth and the time of anyone who graciously read all this dribble. Solutions must come from someone with far more vision than I; but even more important then that ‘ideal’ would be progress and believe it or not…our sport has made “some”. One more thing… if you want to find the root cause & effect...follow the money.

[Cangamble]

Wouldn't it be great if an ex vet or an ex trainer wrote a tell all book?

But look at the flack Shane Sellers got for admitting to using buzzers.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"http://tampabaydowns.com/documents/Racing/TBD_StallApp07-08.pdf"
The 1st sentence says owner and trainer will abide by all FL PM rules and regulations; 1st pragraph says stalls are revocable at any time, and says trainer is resonsible for employee actions (I assume that means accountant also!). All tracks have similar language. TBC, Calder, GP can revokle all of his stalls today, and allow stall to his owners' horses if they go to another trainer.
Fl can change rules to add 2lbs for each violation in the most recent Fl meet. They can also raise fines to 60% of TOTAL PURSE upon finding violation before or after race or in detention barn.
How long will owners stay with cheating trainers when they have to add 4-6 lbs carry weight on every horse under a trainer, pay for horse, trainer, and employees to live off-track, and pay fine equal to winning purse whether the horse wins or even runs?
We on this forum knows who many of the blantant cheaters are who violated banned substance rules. Toby Keith owned 2 of those horses in violation during the same LAD stakes race..

[Bochall]

It all started with LASIX ya'll...the gateway drug of the American thoroughbred. Diuretics flush the body (and take traces of other drugs with it). Euros don't use lasix, and the German breeding program will not allow a sire to stand in that country if he has EVER run with race day medication. The flip side is: how many good German sires are there? Acatenango, is he German or South American?

[DeanT]

Ultimately a waste of bandwidth and the time of anyone who graciously read all this dribble.

That is some-kinda good dribble!

[Greyfox]

Follow the money…

Money…money is what drives people to cheat and severe fines is what ‘may’ :rolleyes: make them possibly think twice. Everyone involved has so much to lose / and or ultimately gain…

• The animal who provides the show suffers.
• Defrauding the betting public.
• The clean trainer / owner are dealt marked cards as a reward for having integrity.
• The rider risks his life when the animal can no longer read natures signals to shut it down.
• We continually give ammunition to groups who want our great sport abolished and our political clout of yesterday is increasingly in the pocket of casino, lottery and other narrow minded lobbyists.

ney.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: A well thought out post with very strong points. I wish that I could have formulated them as well as you have.

[Paseana]

Here's a quote from pedigreequery.com:

"German Racehorse Legend, Three times Horse of the Year in Germany and Champion-Sire 1993,1995,1997,1999.
ACATENANGO was pensioned at the age of 22 at Stud Faehrhof due to fertility problems.
Died 2.4.2005 humanely destroyed after accident in Paddock."

I do believe that Monsun, the sire of Manduro, Schiaparelli, and Shirocco, still stands in Germany, but Manduro is now in Ireland, and Shirocco stands at Dalham Hall in England for Darley. There's no reference to where Schiaparelli now stands, but Darley is listed as his owner, so Dalham Hall is likely for him as well.

Silvano, the German-bred Arlington Million winner of 2001, is now in South Africa.

Speaking of Monsun, I read a year or two ago that he was definitely on Ouija Board's dance card. I believe she had her first breeding to another stallion (can't for the life of me remember who or when), but she was supposed to go to Monsun for her second. There's no progeny listed for her yet.

[Imriledup]

Dan mentions about training the stable from the Bahamas.


What about forcing the suspended trainer to give his horses to different unaffiliated trainers during the ban? None of this Ral Ayres stuff where you just put a groom's name on the program and manage the barn from the golf course.

It just comes down to the fact that the penalties aren't harsh enough.

[fmolf]

Dan mentions about training the stable from the Bahamas.


What about forcing the suspended trainer to give his horses to different unaffiliated trainers during the ban? None of this Ral Ayres stuff where you just put a groom's name on the program and manage the barn from the golf course.

It just comes down to the fact that the penalties aren't harsh enough.
All horses now are becoming resistent to these drugs currently in use.the breed is becoming weaker as the demand for horses to fill the many races increases.Until the sport bans drugs altogether and cuts down on racing dates the brees will continue to be weakened and public credibility will continue to wane....Ban the trainer and the horse from competition for at least 6 months and make each penalty for the next infraction harsher.TRainers who cannot win without medicating will eventually be run out of the game.

[Imriledup]

All horses now are becoming resistent to these drugs currently in use.the breed is becoming weaker as the demand for horses to fill the many races increases.Until the sport bans drugs altogether and cuts down on racing dates the brees will continue to be weakened and public credibility will continue to wane....Ban the trainer and the horse from competition for at least 6 months and make each penalty for the next infraction harsher.TRainers who cannot win without medicating will eventually be run out of the game.

I'm going to tell you one last time and i don't want to have to tell you again.

STOP. MAKING. SENSE.

The racing industry doesn't want to hear it.

You know, this goes back to my discussion on why betting after the start is permitted by some tracks........because they have no incentive financially to make it stop. Same thing with drugs. Why should race tracks and state governments who support those racetracks spend money to make the racing 'cleaner'? Its not going to make them money, its only going to cost money.

Believe me, these places have done studies on this type of stuff and they haven't seen one shred of evidence to indicate that betting pools will rise if the races are clean.

Whenever anyone on this website comes up with a suggestion, ask yourself this question. Will the suggestion help the tracks MAKE money. Most of our suggestions will only make US (the bettors) money. What do you have for me to make the TRACKS money?

I know you'll all say that lowering takeout will make the tracks money but the problem is that it won't make the tracks money in the short term. This is a long term thing no doubt, but in the short term, its a losing proposition.

Tracks don't want to lose one penny and they are not in the 'long term' business. Short term is all they care about. If you can't make them money TODAY, they don't want to hear about it.

[Greyfox]

Whenever anyone on this website comes up with a suggestion, ask yourself this question. Will the suggestion help the tracks MAKE money. Most of our suggestions will only make US (the bettors) money. What do you have for me to make the TRACKS money?

.

If bettors can make more money, the tracks will make more money.
Unfortunately, not many people understand that concept.

[Imriledup]

If bettors can make more money, the tracks will make more money.
Unfortunately, not many people understand that concept.

I think that some tracks THINK that this is the case, but the don't know for sure. They're not willing to gamble on this, so they just maintain the status quo.

Its unfortunate there is no big shot in horse racing who is a visionary.

[Black Ruby]

I think that the next time I lose on a ticket and the med test comes back positive, I'll sue the trainer and if it's a trainer with multiple positives, I'll sue the owner too. as they should have known their trainer is a cheat. Speaking of which, when is I Want a Milkshake supposed to be back on the track?

[joanied]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51608/kirk-ziadie-appealing-60-day-florida-ban?source=rss

This is such a matter of BS that it makes me want to scream...they hand him a 60 day suspension and a small fine...then he appeals, so today at the Summit of Speed, he runs his horses...I hate to say this, but I hope they all don't run a lick.
His attorney blames the postivies on managment & accounting that is 'chaotic'...now, someone please tell me what in hell accounting and his managment has to do with getting postivies...does he ask his accountant to administer drugs to the horses:confused:
He says his horses are all healthy...no doubt they are...that has nothing to do with what drugs are in their system on race days....he admits to using 'Ace' in the mornings to calm down hard to manage horses...IMO, if you have horses that need to be tranquilized to go to the track in the morning...then someone is not doing a good job with them...you school them, you train them to behave...there are some that will never behave, but for the most part...if you need to tranq a horse to keep him from dropping his rider or going nuts in the gate...that horse needs to be schooled, not tranquilized.

This crap about giving these cheating trainers a $1,000 fine and delaying their suspension via an appeal has to stop...as many of us have been saying here, the fines and suspensions need to be implimented the day that postive comes back...longer suspensions and much higher fines...fine the owner too...and put a stop on any horse running from that particular barn/owner.

It's time to crack down and get tough...the powers that be are a bunch of weenies.

[pktruckdriver]

My thoughts are this:


These are civil penalty's no?

Make them criminal, a misdemeanor and after 3 misdemeanor's make it a felony and that way he must go, no.

As felon's are not allowed in horse racing are they?

What do you think?

what ever happened to the 3 strike rule?

patrick

[Vinman]

One way of illustrating to the folks at Tampa Bay Downs that Zaidie, or any other trainer, is cheating would be to round up the the names of all the horses he's suspecting of cheating with and then obtaining either the Ragozin or Thorograph sheets for those horses to see how many points forward these horses jumped past their prior lifetime "top" in their first or second start for Kirk. If the guy is in fact cheating, his "MO" will leap off the page.

When I was using the "Rags" regularly back in the '90's I used to occasionally order sheets for specific horses I was interested in. They'd charge me a buck per horse. Once they computerized their operations many years ago, it was a snap to obtain the lifetime Sheet figs for any horse.

Maybe we should take up a collection to get all the Sheets for the horses Kirk ran during the Tampa meet. It would also be interesting to see the Sheet figs for horses he no longer trains.

Vinman

[andymays]

File a class action suit against the Track where the infraction occurred so that the disqualification after the drug test was if it had happened on race day. The Track must pay on all the tickets that would have won that day in addition to the winning tickets that had already been cashed.

Something would change in a hurry if a judge ruled in the Horseplayers favor!

The Tracks and Racing Authorities would be forced to put rules in place that were sensible and fair!

[kenwoodallpromos]

Entities handing out punishment need to wake up to the fact that the effect of the violation is the potential winning % of the purse of the race the Tbred was found in violation of.
Also, when Kirk or any other trainer runs a horse on illegal dope he or she is defrauding bettors (if total W/P/S and exotic pools affected), cheating someone else out of a purse (when purses have to be given back, are the rightful connections given purses adjusted for the violation, or are they just out of luck and screwed out of the justifiably bigger share of the purse?), recieving benefit of FREE office space and horse and employee room and board which others (probably smaller trainers) have been denied due to space limitations, ruining the integrity of the sport, and if the horse wins and is disqualified, may recieve weight off as a non-winner (are winning horses DQ'ed due to drugs considered to have won for race condition purposes?
BROKEN RECORD: These are among the reasons I advocate the following punishments for each violation of ban on drug, or multiple violations per meet for other drugs: 1) Lose 50% of stalls next meet in (same) state that trainer usually enters horses; 2) 2lbs extra carry weight for each horse run by trainer or assistant; 3) Any suspension recognized world-wide, and 4) Fine equal to 60% of total purse for race involved.

[joanied]

HAH....Ziadie's filly is a scratch in the Princess Rooney today...WHY???

[TejanoRun]

Unfortunately, Ziadie’s suspension only focuses on one violation from 2007. I hoped perhaps the State of Florida finally said enough is enough, but despite the incredibly lengthy list of violations in Florida and other jurisdictions, he easily managed to get a stay of suspension from the Appeals Court, and the State was powerless to do anything about that.

So here again, another cheater works the system, drags out the process, all the horses will be named to another conditioner or assistant, and the entire suspension which should offer reform somewhere will just be another anxiety-filled waste of time for the horseplayers who seek a level playing field.

I refused to bet Calder today. Why would anyone bet Calder? Because Marty Wolfson’s slew of horses had new shoes and come from a clean, honest barn? [Sarcasm]

In the Bloodhorse rendition on Ziadie, it’s laughable to see him quoted “We abide by all the rules on medications. I am not sure why they [the yiolations] keep coming up.”

Kudos to Ray Paulick and also the Miami Herald (Jim Freer wrote in the Herald and the Bloodhorse) for covering the story. While the suspension was initially posted a few weeks ago on Dan Illman’s DRF FormBlog, it is curious why it took the racing media so long to report, since Ziadie was suspended on June 18. In fact, Mike Welsch only got his story in on DRF late last night.

[matthewsiv]

Try naming trainers who do not use drugs?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Greyfox]

Racing is honest for the most part, if you take the trainer into account.
95 % of all race wins can be explained, in "the rear view mirror."
Unfortunately, one hell of a lot of those wins go to the same old, same old supposedly"cutting edge trainers" who bring the odds down.
They win or are in the money often enough that your money is at higher risk by discounting them.

They are either very good horsemen who know how to condition a horse and place it exactly in the right spot, or have an insight into the physiology of the horse that they are able to stimulate.

In every race that you bet, independent of pace and speed figures,
these wise acres entries have to be evaluated very carefully before you toss them.

Oh Silly me, but from my perspective, it only makes sense to give weight in your equations to to these apparent wizards in your algorithms.

The unfortunate part is they are usually ahead of any detection systems the track has in place and when they are caught they get light taps on the wrist.

Why shouldn't they .....press the envelope?

[The Railbird]

This is pretty astounding stuff. Where are the people who are supposed to be "cleaning up" the game?

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/ziadie-blames-drug-violations-on-chaos/

I have already notified the management at Tampa Bay Downs that I will not bet on any race in the upcoming 2009/10 meet that Kirk Ziadie has an entrant in. This is a track that ruled off a handful of jockeys based upon hearsay evidence. How can it let this drugstore cowboy operate there in light of his repeated violations?

Out of 4 races today at Calder he had one show horse in the 13th race. They are keeping him under close surveilance.

[casterlink]

I've often wondered why an injured jockey hasn't sued the connections of a horse after a breakdown.

[TejanoRun]

Florida has more on Marty Wolfson than they have on Jamie Ness. According to state records, Ness is very clean.

Here is the Ness record from Florida: https://www.myfloridalicense.com/viewcomplaint.asp?SID=&licid=3241346

Here is Wolfson's record: https://www.myfloridalicense.com/viewcomplaint.asp?SID=&licid=504322

Wolfson received warning letters earlier this year and when he was referred to as a miracle worker, he was offended and got the Florida horsemen association - he is a director - to rally around him and blast Beyer. Hey Marty, the record doesn't lie. It'sabird in Arkansas. Pious Ashley in Florida. Maybe Texas can come up with something for his big day there.

Lastly, you should all take a look at this. Here is Ziadie's record from Florida, which shows many many more infractions than what was on the Paulick Report, simply because he received numerous warning letters and reprimands but was not fined. Ridiculous that they can only suspend him for one violation from 2007. "Now Kirk, don't do that anymore, or we'll have to send you another warning letter..."

https://www.myfloridalicense.com/viewcomplaint.asp?SID=&licid=518431

[pandy]

Good thread. He should be banned for life.

[joanied]

I got tired of scrolling down the lists of violations on Wolfson & Zaidie...
both should be banned for life.

By the way...I posted about Ziadie's filly being scratched from the Princess Rooney (?Ballerina?) and was wondering why he scratched her....I guess I can prob'ly answer my own question...because 'they' are watching him and he prob'ly knew he'd get another violation if he ran her....

[castaway01]

I've often wondered why an injured jockey hasn't sued the connections of a horse after a breakdown.
It's part of the risks of the game---should any football player sue after being injured on the field?

[andymays]

Interesting Article.

It's about the rules, not the facts!

http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2009/07/its-about-the-rules-not-the-facts.html


Some standard needs to be set that is fair and sensible. Racing cannot afford any more of this stuff from all sides.

[rrbauer]

The "Pat Valenzuela" of trainers finally gets ruled off. Will Tampa be next to take action? I hope so.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2009/August/21/Calder-rules-off-Ziadie.aspx

[illinoisbred]

I know some don't believe in speed figures and "jumps" in figures, but anyone who has seen what this guy has done in the past would have to be suspicious, even before the long list of drug infractions.
I think this is the best way to uncover likely cheaters on your circuit.We have a couple in Illinois that consistently move-up horses huge after a claim or private acquisation.Of course they always say they have better people,a keener eye for horseflesh,50 different bits to try which the smaller guy doesn't have, better vets,or they themselves get on them in the morning workouts.I'll give them better vets,probably better drugs too!

[ryanxpress]

Amussen isnt any different then these lowlifes

[castaway01]

Can anyone give me an update on the Ziadie situation? Is he still suspended/when will he be back? I'm sure it is out there somewhere but between life and family, I haven't found it. Thanks.

[castaway01]

I think this is the best way to uncover likely cheaters on your circuit.We have a couple in Illinois that consistently move-up horses huge after a claim or private acquisation.Of course they always say they have better people,a keener eye for horseflesh,50 different bits to try which the smaller guy doesn't have, better vets,or they themselves get on them in the morning workouts.I'll give them better vets,probably better drugs too!

Personally I think you're right, but then you get into arguments about whether speed figures are right, what they prove, etc. I think the last few words "better drugs too" are the truth, but there's no way to prove it so it gets complicated legally.

[illinoisbred]

It sure does get complicated.

[Hanover1]

All I heard was he was asked to leave the grounds at CD, and asked not to return. No word on if appeals will be in the works.

[WinterTriangle]

I am saddened too. However I am not the least bit surprised at what I have read.

I am saddened, too, based on an email I recieved this morning from a horsewoman friend. I am not on any mailing list for OTTB rescue or anything, this was just an isolated case.

I opened the mail to see photos of a beautiful 6 year old racehorse, stabled at a track that's not a bush track. It's one of the premier tracks in the US. The horse has thrombophlebitis or corded veins.

Due to too many intravenous injections, his jugular veins have collapsed.

(These are not critical to horses as in humans, but they are crucial for being a race horse, to receive injections. This horse can be orally medicated only.) Sometimes it corrects itself, but not if any injections are given.

If nobody rescued him, he was probably euthanized yesterday. :(

If you saw the photos, he is a magnificent stallion.

IMHO, forget fines and suspensions. Shooting horses up with drugs so they can race should be illegal, plain and simple. If a horse can't be a racehorse without drugs, then he needs not be on the track at all.

[Wingtips]

I am saddened, too, based on an email I recieved this morning from a horsewoman friend. I am not on any mailing list for OTTB rescue or anything, this was just an isolated case.

I opened the mail to see photos of a beautiful 6 year old racehorse, stabled at a track that's not a bush track. It's one of the premier tracks in the US. The horse has thrombophlebitis or corded veins.

Due to too many intravenous injections, his jugular veins have collapsed.

(These are not critical to horses as in humans, but they are crucial for being a race horse, to receive injections. This horse can be orally medicated only.) Sometimes it corrects itself, but not if any injections are given.

If nobody rescued him, he was probably euthanized yesterday. :(

If you saw the photos, he is a magnificent stallion.

IMHO, forget fines and suspensions. Shooting horses up with drugs so they can race should be illegal, plain and simple. If a horse can't be a racehorse without drugs, then he needs not be on the track at all.


Can you share the names of the owner and trainer? I would like to know who would allow the killing of their horse because he was not taken off their hands within their time frame.

[rrbauer]

Can anyone give me an update on the Ziadie situation? Is he still suspended/when will he be back? I'm sure it is out there somewhere but between life and family, I haven't found it. Thanks.

Ziadie was ruled off at Calder in late August. Last that I have heard.

[Space Monkey]

I would like to know too. I have connections with some wonderful people who could possibly rescue this horse. Location please.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I think this is the best way to uncover likely cheaters on your circuit.We have a couple in Illinois that consistently move-up horses huge after a claim or private acquisation.Of course they always say they have better people,a keener eye for horseflesh,50 different bits to try which the smaller guy doesn't have, better vets,or they themselves get on them in the morning workouts.I'll give them better vets,probably better drugs too!

Much of what you say in your post is very true,Horses can be moved up in other barns and it isnt from drugs...Changing a horses training and feed and also his care can make them better..ALSO when you can get on them yourself makes for more controlled training.Excersise riders in the morn gallop the crap out of them so they walk home quietly..I see horses everyday being ripped around the track..Its just a job to these most of these guys with no future.The sad thing is,Lots of the people that work with the horses have never had to put a penny of their own money into the game,Just a paycheck to them....Large outfits are factory's,They all train the same..What makes it races what doesnt are either retired or sold..Gone is the old time horsetraining that allows each and every horse a fair shot..Ill bet you dont have any idea at how many horse dont make it because of uncontrolled training.

[WinterTriangle]

Can you share the names of the owner and trainer? I would like to know who would allow the killing of their horse because he was not taken off their hands within their time frame.

Wingtips, I don't have that information.

Understand, most of these well known TB rescue/retirement orgs are not anti-racing, they are not PETA types, and therefore, their focus and goal is not to cast aspersions on trainers or owners, or the racing industry. Obviously, that would be to their detriment, because they spend time backside trying to HELP.

I'm sure there are always unique circumstances surrounding a horse who is 'surrendered'.

My point in posting was to bring attention to the fact that repeated drug injections can have life-changing affects on these lovely animals. Not good ones.

I received word the horse was taken in by Final Furlong retirement.
This is a wonderful organization run by experienced TB Horsemen and Horsewomen who take horses at the end of their career and either retrain them or house them as necessary. They work on donations only so if you were moved enough to care or inquire about this horse, PLEASE send a donation in his behalf. :ThmbUp: They are located in Ocala, I'm sure they have a website.

[WinterTriangle]

I did find the website for Final Furlong. They rescue horses, give them vet care, and then they are matched with new owners for other activities, companion horses or retired.......and the adopting individual gets them free of charge. Sounds like a good deal for everyone.