Slowly but surely the truth about synthetic surfaces......

[Java Gold@TFT]

The big question is whether or not the so called Safety Alliance will certify Del Mar when all this is happening while they inspect the place. How the hell can they?
If you look closely at the mission of the Safety Alliance their job is to make sure that procedures and reporting standards are in place. They don't necessarily count the number of breakdowns and injuries as long as they are properly reported and there is a procedure in place to address the problems. An analogy to manufacturing is ISO9000 and other QC "programs". They don't care if you have a great product as long as you show that you can track your goods and follow standardized procedures in making them. It's basically a smokescreen and that's why every track passes it. At least that's the way I read the one report I looked at in full.

[Java Gold@TFT]

As a follow up to that comment here is the take so far on Del Mar's status:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/ntra-alex-waldrop-straight-up/archive/2009/07/29/surf-and-turf.aspx

It's a big reporting and procedural system. They are neutral on poly vs. dirt as long as they get their national database of injuries. All they say is if you keep track of things and talk to the horsemen for their input then you are doing your job. If 80% of the horsemen at Del Mar say the track is a hazard it doesn't mean management has to do anything more than monitor the situation.

I'm not saying that they don't want to decrease injuries and breakdowns but to be honest they haven't figured out how to maintain the tracks in So Cal yet. Their hearts may be in the right place and the casual fans may get all warm and fuzzy over it but I have a strange feeling that after this week's rash of breakdowns maybe Moss is thinking about keeping Zenyatta off of that surface.

[andymays]

I honestly don't get a good feeling from the NTRA and I can't put my finger on exactly what it is. I know I've paid them the membership the last couple of years but will not anymore. I guess I just don't get the feeling that they are really pro Horseplayer!

Sometimes if you want to know about an something you follow the money. Has anyone followed the money and the people that pay the NTRA to advertise with them?

[andymays]

Another Horse Euthanized at Del Mar Track - San Diego 6

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Another-Horse-Euthanized-at-Del-Mar-Track/BjYY0B7J20mgoS8_tWrwHQ.cspx

Excerpt:

Roger Licht is the former chairman of the California Horse Racing Board. Licht says "I think the synthetic tracks are the worst move that horse racing's made since I've been following it for 40 years."

Gary Young has been handicapping horses for 30 years. Young says, "I'm not saying we were sold a total bill of goods on a bad product, but I think they did rush into something."

[joanied]

This entire breakdown f'-n countdown is an outrage...."it ain't the track"..."we can't control things in the morning"...'there are a lot of sore horses'...well DUH:bang: ...
makes me sick:mad:

I don't think I can deal with one more group of moron's in this industry...is there anyone out there that actually knows what he's doing?
Shit, I hope Moss & Sherriff's decide not to run Z on that track...I cannot imagine being a trainer there right now...what in hell do you do...stay in the barn, not good with a ready horse...take a shot and hope your horses won't break down... this sucks, sucks, sucks... maybe the trainers...all of them, should boycott for a day or two...

[andymays]

This entire breakdown f'-n countdown is an outrage...."it ain't the track"..."we can't control things in the morning"...'there are a lot of sore horses'...well DUH:bang: ...
makes me sick:mad:

I don't think I can deal with one more group of moron's in this industry...is there anyone out there that actually knows what he's doing?
Shit, I hope Moss & Sherriff's decide not to run Z on that track...I cannot imagine being a trainer there right now...what in hell do you do...stay in the barn, not good with a ready horse...take a shot and hope your horses won't break down... this sucks, sucks, sucks... maybe the trainers...all of them, should boycott for a day or two...


You're right Joanied! Sherriff's is not going to run Life Is Sweet and I hope he pulls Zenyatta too. That will hit Del Mar and their Poly Misery right between the eyes.

Why are all the Horses sore Joe Harper? Haven't they been running and training on synthetic surfaces all year? Why Joe Harper? Why? :bang:

[46zilzal]

This entire EXPERIMENT, in my mind, was an attempt to put a theoretical band aid on a larger problem: the increasing fragility and out of control drug use that makes these horse so prone to breakdowns in the first place.

Calcium leaching furosemide, the "helpful" inflammation blocked by NSAID's and the stupidly of steroids are combined in the ruination of the breed.

Have them run over this stuff and we can keep our pharmacies active. What a load of crap

[andymays]

Bruno @ Del Mar www.racingwithbruno.com

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090730.html

Excerpt:

The track is the main topic. The Wednesday card was run over a track that was by far the slowest of the meet. It is something we must get accustomed to on Wednesday's for the rest of the meet. I would like to see more consistency from the trackman in the maintenance. If you are going to cut the track on Monday cut it on Monday, not Tuesday and let the track settle. I saw a big difference between the track on Wednesday morning to the surface on Thursday.

This is how horses get injured. Soft tissue damage when we go from hard to deep, and joint and bone issues develop when we go to the opposite end of the extremity, meaning deep to hard.

There have been reports of 20 horses being sent to the farms with various injuries since the start of the meet. We need a consistent surface throughout the meet if we want to fill races by September. Therefore, the trackman needs to be extremely careful to stick to the maintenance schedule. It doesn't matter who is working on Tuesday's, the maintenance must be done like clockwork. The need of one doesn't outweight the need of the entire horse populace here at Del Mar. Especially if that horse is likely to go out of town to race.

[gm10]

Bruno @ Del Mar www.racingwithbruno.com (http://www.racingwithbruno.com/)

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090730.html

Excerpt:

The track is the main topic. The Wednesday card was run over a track that was by far the slowest of the meet. It is something we must get accustomed to on Wednesday's for the rest of the meet. I would like to see more consistency from the trackman in the maintenance. If you are going to cut the track on Monday cut it on Monday, not Tuesday and let the track settle. I saw a big difference between the track on Wednesday morning to the surface on Thursday.

This is how horses get injured. Soft tissue damage when we go from hard to deep, and joint and bone issues develop when we go to the opposite end of the extremity, meaning deep to hard.

There have been reports of 20 horses being sent to the farms with various injuries since the start of the meet. We need a consistent surface throughout the meet if we want to fill races by September. Therefore, the trackman needs to be extremely careful to stick to the maintenance schedule. It doesn't matter who is working on Tuesday's, the maintenance must be done like clockwork. The need of one doesn't outweight the need of the entire horse populace here at Del Mar. Especially if that horse is likely to go out of town to race.

You strike me as a bit of a loon (I mean that in a kind way), and I fundamentally disagree with your opinion on synthetic surfaces; but I certainly appreciate your passion and tenacity.

[rwwupl]

From andymays quote of Bruno above,

This is how horses get injured. Soft tissue damage when we go from hard to deep, and joint and bone issues develop when we go to the opposite end of the extremity, meaning deep to hard.


I agree with this. I wonder why some horsemen ,the track,the Vet and the maintenance super can`t see this and act in the best interest of all?

[andymays]

You strike me as a bit of a loon (I mean that in a kind way), and I fundamentally disagree with your opinion on synthetic surfaces; but I certainly appreciate your passion and tenacity.


You know where you can shove your loon (I mean that in a very kind way of course), and I fundamentally disagree with your opinion on synthetic surfaces: but I certainly appreciate your passion and tenacity.

I think, and maybe I'm wrong, but a lot of experts are agreeing with me and my opinion. I have listed their comments along with mine in order to support my opinion. I have listed articles with comments from noted and respected experts on a daily basis but It seem you don't care what they have to say. I noticed you have listed nothing but jibberish in support of your opinion. ;)

[rwwupl]

From andymays quote of Bruno above,




I agree with this. I wonder why some horsemen ,the track,the Vet and the maintenance super can`t see this and act in the best interest of all?



CONSISTENCY is the golden word!

[Indulto]

Does anybody know what the breakdown/injury figures are for Arlington Park's synthetic surface during the current meet?

[joanied]

You're right Joanied! Sherriff's is not going to run Life Is Sweet and I hope he pulls Zenyatta too. That will hit Del Mar and their Poly Misery right between the eyes.

Why are all the Horses sore Joe Harper? Haven't they been running and training on synthetic surfaces all year? Why Joe Harper? Why? :bang:

I think Harper has a screw loose...along with all the other 'powers' in S Cal....they can't seem to see the writting on the wall...so I guess the wall has got to come down and hit them on the head:eek: for their eyesight to improove...and ya know what they say about 'hindsight'...
and his attitude is just so damned cavalier I want to just give him a good right hook...oh, that'd feel good:ThmbUp:
I think it's up to the trainers now...they need to get together and form a sort of union and protest...maybe Sherriff's not running Life is Sweet is a beginning.

[joanied]

You know where you can shove your loon (I mean that in a very kind way of course), and I fundamentally disagree with your opinion on synthetic surfaces: but I certainly appreciate your passion and tenacity.

I think, and maybe I'm wrong, but a lot of experts are agreeing with me and my opinion. I have listed their comments along with mine in order to support my opinion. I have listed articles with comments from noted and respected experts on a daily basis but It seem you don't care what they have to say. I noticed you have listed nothing but jibberish in support of your opinion. ;)

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[gm10]

You know where you can shove your loon (I mean that in a very kind way of course), and I fundamentally disagree with your opinion on synthetic surfaces: but I certainly appreciate your passion and tenacity.

I think, and maybe I'm wrong, but a lot of experts are agreeing with me and my opinion. I have listed their comments along with mine in order to support my opinion. I have listed articles with comments from noted and respected experts on a daily basis but It seem you don't care what they have to say. I noticed you have listed nothing but jibberish in support of your opinion. ;)

I think that's a bit unfair of you. What I gave was certainly not jibberish. It shows that synthetic racing is as predictable as dirt racing is.

And yes, I have taken notice of your trainer quotes, but I also know that trainers know both a lot and very little. I am a horseowner myself, I know trainers. They are horsemen, they know their animals and how to handle them, but most of them are not scientists. Name me one trainer who has given factual numbers about these injuries. It's a new factor, and when something bad happens, they blame it on that new factor. Trainers used to say that poly was like turf. Oh please, don't make me laugh. They are asked for their opinion with a camera on their face, and they do their best. But data analysis is usually not their forte, that's what I think of it.

[andymays]

I think that's a bit unfair of you. What I gave was certainly not jibberish. It shows that synthetic racing is as predictable as dirt racing is.

And yes, I have taken notice of your trainer quotes, but I also know that trainers know both a lot and very little. I am a horseowner myself, I know trainers. They are horsemen, they know their animals and how to handle them, but most of them are not scientists. Name me one trainer who has given factual numbers about these injuries. It's a new factor, and when something bad happens, they blame it on that new factor. Trainers used to say that poly was like turf. Oh please, don't make me laugh. They are asked for their opinion with a camera on their face, and they do their best. But data analysis is usually not their forte, that's what I think of it.


There are no factual numbers. Haven't you been reading the various posts. They have been covering them up until recently. Now that people are paying attention the numbers don't look so good. Regardless of the numbers the majority of Horseplayers dislike synthetic surfaces! What is it that you don't get about that?

I believe it was you that resorted to name calling. I know this thread grinds on you just a little if you're pro synthetic but as long as the news keeps coming in I'll keep posting it whether it suites your fancy or not.

Maybe you should start a thread about how wonderful synthetic surfaces are and give all your powerful statistics on why we should love them.

[gm10]

There are no factual numbers. Haven't you been reading the various posts. They have been covering them up until recently. Now that people are paying attention the numbers don't look so good. Regardless of the numbers the majority of Horseplayers dislike synthetic surfaces! What is it that you don't get about that?

I believe it was you that resorted to name calling. I know this thread grinds on you just a little if you're pro synthetic but as long as the news keeps coming in I'll keep posting it whether it suites your fancy or not.

Maybe you should start a thread about how wonderful synthetic surfaces are and give all your powerful statistics on why we should love them.

Hey, I get it, but I've got nothing agst synthetics. I don't see you producing numbers that back up your opinion. You really should.

There was no name calling. "You are a loon" was clearly not intended to be read as "you have a mental health problem". You are clearly passionate about the subject, and as I said, I appreciate that. But I disagree with you. The safety aspect ... the jury's out. My impression is there are slightly less breakdowns, but I wouldn't swear on it. The surface being unpredictable ... this is clearly unfounded. The numbers prove the opposite.

[andymays]

Hey, I get it, but I've got nothing agst synthetics. I don't see you producing numbers that back up your opinion. You really should.

There was no name calling. "You are a loon" was clearly not intended to be read as "you have a mental health problem". You are clearly passionate about the subject, and as I said, I appreciate that. But I disagree with you. The safety aspect ... the jury's out. My impression is there are slightly less breakdowns, but I wouldn't swear on it. The surface being unpredictable ... this is clearly unfounded. The numbers prove the opposite.


I've got it that you disagree with me for the 10th time. :bang:

In this country when someone calls you a loon it's not taken as a compliment so how can you say it was clearly not intended to be read as "you have a mental health problem"? If you're sincere about your intention then you ought to apologize.

There is a poll on another thread about synthetic surfaces. You should take a look and move on to something else. You're not winning any hearts and minds here!

[gm10]

I've got it that you disagree with me for the 10th time. :bang:

In this country when someone calls you a loon it's not taken as a compliment so how can you say it was clearly not intended to be read as "you have a mental health problem"? If you're sincere about your intention then you ought to apologize.

There is a poll on another thread about synthetic surfaces. You should take a look and move on to something else. You're not winning any hearts and minds here!

I'm not trying to win anything here, I'm just here to give my opinion. I actually went to a lot of trouble producing those numbers, which you don't seem to want to react to. But I'm not a missionary, so yeah I can move on.

[46zilzal]

I talk to a lot of horsemen: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I talk to a lot of handicappers: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I have walked on it several times. My belief is that the tracks were sold a bill or unsubstantiated goods. It has saved racing dates in Kentucky and Toronto but at what long term respiratory costs?

[andymays]

I talk to a lot of horsemen: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I talk to a lot of handicappers: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I have walked on it several times. My belief is that the tracks were sold a bill or unsubstituted goods. It has saved racing dates in Kentucky and Toronto but at what long term respiratory costs?


Thanks! :ThmbUp:

[gm10]

I talk to a lot of horsemen: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I talk to a lot of handicappers: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I have walked on it several times. My belief is that the tracks were sold a bill or unsubstantiated goods. It has saved racing dates in Kentucky and Toronto but at what long term respiratory costs?

But that's the whole point!!

FACT: most trainers aren't very good trainers
FACT: most handicappers aren't very good handicappers
FACT: most people from the above groups would rather blame a new surface than be honest with themselves. It's human nature after all.

Why would I blindly accept the opinions of these good people? I prefer to think for myself. I'm not saying synethetics are perfectly safe, but the bad reputation is not deserved. And are they bad for handicapping? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Tell me how you want to prove this numerically and I will look it up for you.

[andymays]

But that's the whole point!!

FACT: most trainers aren't very good trainers
FACT: most handicappers aren't very good handicappers
FACT: most people from the above groups would rather blame a new surface than be honest with themselves. It's human nature after all.

Why would I blindly accept the opinions of these good people? I prefer to think for myself. I'm not saying synethetics are perfectly safe, but the bad reputation is not deserved. And are they bad for handicapping? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Tell me how you want to prove this numerically and I will look it up for you.

You keep giving your opinion and the majority of Horseplayers on this board keep giving theirs. It is the opinion of most Horsplayers on this board that they don't like synthetic surfaces and they base their opinion on their own experience and the opinion of people they respect. So much for moving on. :bang:

[Imriledup]

But that's the whole point!!

FACT: most trainers aren't very good trainers
FACT: most handicappers aren't very good handicappers
FACT: most people from the above groups would rather blame a new surface than be honest with themselves. It's human nature after all.

Why would I blindly accept the opinions of these good people? I prefer to think for myself. I'm not saying synethetics are perfectly safe, but the bad reputation is not deserved. And are they bad for handicapping? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Tell me how you want to prove this numerically and I will look it up for you.

Its not necessarily that the new surfaces are bad for handicapping, but most players being men in their 40s and 50s have paid their dues learning how to handicap horses and spent decades learning how to handicap.. Now, you toss in the monkey wrench and force people to reinvent the wheel without their permission. No one asked players if they wanted a change like this, they just forced down their throats and players are pissed about it.

I'm sure that quality handicappers can adapt but my question is 'why should they'?

What's in it for the horseplayer to completely have to reinvent the wheel?

[gm10]

Its not necessarily that the new surfaces are bad for handicapping, but most players being men in their 40s and 50s have paid their dues learning how to handicap horses and spent decades learning how to handicap.. Now, you toss in the monkey wrench and force people to reinvent the wheel without their permission. No one asked players if they wanted a change like this, they just forced down their throats and players are pissed about it.

I'm sure that quality handicappers can adapt but my question is 'why should they'?

What's in it for the horseplayer to completely have to reinvent the wheel?

A fair point. My answer would be: more and better opportunities to make money.

If I may illustrate my point. Here are some stats that compare surfaces for blindly backing the top rated horses:

Routes/Dirt: 28% winners, -18.9% ROI
Routes/Poly: 27.2% winners, -7.2% ROI

Sprints/Dirt: 28.7% winners, -17% ROI
Sprints/Poly: 28.9% winners, -5.8% ROI

As you can see, the winning % are about the same for both surfaces. However, just picking the top rating on the polytrack overcomes more than 10% of the takeout!! I agree that there is a learning curve, but if there wasn't you end up doing what everybody else is capable of doing and you struggle to overcome the 18% takeout.

[Indulto]

You keep giving your opinion and the majority of Horseplayers on this board keep giving theirs. It is the opinion of most Horsplayers on this board that they don't like synthetic surfaces and they base their opinion on their own experience and the opinion of people they respect. So much for moving on. :bang:So far the poll I started does not support your contention.

You'll have to muster up some votes to change that. I know you can do it.:jump:

[andymays]

So far the poll I started does not support your contention.

You'll have to muster up some votes to change that. I know you can do it.:jump:


I'm referring to the poll started by CJ! ;)

[andymays]

So far the poll I started does not support your contention.

You'll have to muster up some votes to change that. I know you can do it.:jump:


I think you might want to make an identical poll using Saratoga in place of Del Mar to compare with the one you are currently conducting.

That should produce a good apples to apples comparison. Good Luck! ;)

[Indulto]

I think you might want to make an identical poll using Saratoga in place of Del Mar to compare with the one you are currently conducting.

That should produce a good apples to apples comparison. Good Luck! ;)Be my guest if it interests you. Feel free to cut and paste the text. It's good practice in case you want to volunteer as HANA's feedback facilitator.:jump:

[andymays]

Be my guest if it interests you. Feel free to cut and paste the text. It's good practice in case you want to volunteer as HANA's feedback facilitator.:jump:


I'll leave the polls to the experts.

[bisket]

i have found for the most part this is how poly plays. in sprints up to 7 furs its pretty fair the best horse wins. past 7furs its very unfriendly to speed. even if your running 24 and change 1/4's. i have found in routes if theirs a horse with a good late run theres your winner. it plays like soft turf; the horse with the last run wins. i guess you can't blame the mosses for staying in cali; its a picture perfect track for zenyatta. just my 2 cents

[rwwupl]

I talk to a lot of horsemen: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I talk to a lot of handicappers: consensus is that it is CRAP.

I have walked on it several times. My belief is that the tracks were sold a bill or unsubstantiated goods. It has saved racing dates in Kentucky and Toronto but at what long term respiratory costs?


I am with you! :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

But that's the whole point!!

FACT: most trainers aren't very good trainers
.


Pure hogwash. There is a spectrum from brilliant to incompetent with the majority near the mean as competent.

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2009/08/01/sports/horseracing/z0f92122bbb63f99688257606000bd893.txt


Excerpt:

Track gets faster
Del Mar's Polytrack was noticeably faster on Saturday after track superintendent Steve Wood graded the inside rail following morning workouts.
"It was a normal procedure," said Wood before the fifth race. "We do it every fourth day."
The Polytrack was power harrowed on Monday and Wood said the inside was graded on Tuesday.
On Wednesday, the race times were slower and long shots ruled the day causing a Pick Six carryover.
On Saturday, the favorites were back in form winning the second, third and fourth races.
Lordgivemealift ($4.60) won the second nearly in track record time. The $20,000 claimer ran 6 furlongs in 1 minute, 8.95 seconds, the fastest clocking of the meet. The track record for the distance is 1:08.29.
In the sixth race, Benezit ($16.20) came up the "golden" rail from far back to win going away.
"We were trying to get the material graded out from the inside to the outside," said Wood. "It shifts to the inside due to the banking of the track."
This week's off-days maintenance schedule won't include power harrowing, but the use of a new machine called a cultivator, which was used at Woodbine and Arlington Park with great success.
Wood said the track would be graded again on Tuesday.
"Hopefully, we'll have a good track on Wednesday," he said.

[gm10]

Pure hogwash. There is a spectrum from brilliant to incompetent with the majority near the mean as competent.

With training I mean, preparing a horse for a winning effort in a race. And most of them don't win very often despite their alleged competence. Me, I'd divide them up as 20% ranging from good to very good, and 80% from mediocre to hopeless.

You seem to suggest their winning % follow a normal distribution, with the bulk in the middle, and short tails. But this is not the case. The right tail (top % trainers) is very long. About 20% of trainers win MUCH more than the rest.

[andymays]

Bruno ( www.racingwithbruno.com ) on the Del Mar surface yesterday morning (Saturday 8-1)!

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090801.html

Excerpt:

Track sped up, again, this morning. We had another busy worktab.
The horses were finishing fast grabbing a hold of the stretch surface really well. Quick final times and last 1/4's littered the worktab and my clockers notebook.

There couldn't be any bigger discrepancy between the surfaces on Wednesday and Thursday in comparison to Friday and now Saturday morning.

[rwwupl]

Bruno ( www.racingwithbruno.com ) on the Del Mar surface yesterday morning (Saturday 8-1)!

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090801.html

Excerpt:

Track sped up, again, this morning. We had another busy worktab.
The horses were finishing fast grabbing a hold of the stretch surface really well. Quick final times and last 1/4's littered the worktab and my clockers notebook.

There couldn't be any bigger discrepancy between the surfaces on Wednesday and Thursday in comparison to Friday and now Saturday morning.


You can`t fool mother nature.

Meddling or experimenting in the name of SAFETY has not been productive for anyone except those who jump for joy when carryovers are achieved. Ask Seabiscuit or Secretariat about that.

After the installation of synthetics there is no proof that fatalities or career ending injuries have been reduced as a total.

When results are altered due to conditions it proves nothing as a sport,detracts from the handicapping process,effects all races,not just the pick six carryover,robs the loyal fan base, rewards the deep pocket lurkers who use money as a weapon and spread their selections with numbers, not skill.

Of course,Those you hear cheering are those who benefit in some way from the longshots winning and the handicappers losing. Thats OK, isn`t it? The little people keep comming ,errr,but not so much.

Someone has to win. Management does not care who wins as long as it creates a carryover

But wait-- you have been entertained! Don`nt you see, we are in the entertainment business. Thats what wrestling did and look at their success!

But wait, I don`t bet on wrestling do you? I can buy lottery tickets without parking and admission charges.

Consistency is the golden word.

We need new leadership.

[andymays]

Roger Stein interviews Joe Harper and asked some very tough questions about the surface! He comes on about 30 minutes into the show!

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

Archived show up at 9:00 AM PST.

[gm10]

Bruno ( www.racingwithbruno.com (http://www.racingwithbruno.com) ) on the Del Mar surface yesterday morning (Saturday 8-1)!

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090801.html

Excerpt:

Track sped up, again, this morning. We had another busy worktab.
The horses were finishing fast grabbing a hold of the stretch surface really well. Quick final times and last 1/4's littered the worktab and my clockers notebook.

There couldn't be any bigger discrepancy between the surfaces on Wednesday and Thursday in comparison to Friday and now Saturday morning.

For once, I agree. The track is about one second faster since Friday.
I'm not sure how important this is, though. Saratoga has seen differences of up to 1.5 seconds so far. I wonder if handicappers pay a lot of attention to that.

[fmolf]

For once, I agree. The track is about one second faster since Friday.
I'm not sure how important this is, though. Saratoga has seen differences of up to 1.5 seconds so far. I wonder if handicappers pay a lot of attention to that.
all tracks will have a variant that varies sometimes rom day to day depending on moisture, temperature and maintenance procedures.Poly in my estimation is far less predictable in how it will react to temperature changes and moisture and also maintenance procedures whatever they may be this week!

[fmolf]

only 26% favorites winning at delmar for whatever that is worth.From brisnets at a glance track profile.

[gm10]

only 26% favorites winning at delmar for whatever that is worth.From brisnets at a glance track profile.

Those stats aren't reliable at this point of the meet. The Saratoga favs (dirt) are wining at only 20%.

[andymays]

We are finally starting to see Horseplayers speaking up in large numbers on the various websites like the Paulick Report (His Jess Jackson article--READ THE COMMENTS BELOW).

More and more are coming out against synthetic surfaces and I hope it's just the beginning.

Pour it on people! ;) :ThmbUp:

[illinoisbred]

Anyone know what Michael Dickenson is up to?I have nightmares that he's now training his horses on dessicated sewage and soon will announce that they really seem to like it.But would that much different from what we have now at many locales?

[Bobzilla]

Anyone know what Michael Dickenson is up to?I have nightmares that he's now training his horses on dessicated sewage and soon will announce that they really seem to like it.But would that much different from what we have now at many locales?


Yes, the master horseman of Cheltenham fame, without a doubt one of the more prominent voices we were hearing from when this movement was taking off three to four years back. I'm surprised his name doesn't pop up more often in these threads concerning synthetic surfaces. The last I knew Mr. Dickinson's Tapeta Footings was chosen to provide the racing surface for the main track at the new Meydan Racecourse in Dubai. I haven't heard any updates. Meydan will be the new home of the Dubai World Cup. I would guess that American dominance of this annual event will soon be a distant memory.

[andymays]

Yes, the master horseman of Cheltenham fame, without a doubt one of the more prominent voices we were hearing from when this movement took off three to four years back. I'm surprised his name doesn't pop up more often in these threads concerning synthetic surfaces. The last I knew Mr. Dickinson's Tapeta Footings was chosen to provide the main track racing surface at the new Meydan Racecourse in Dubai. I haven't heard any updates. Meydan will be the new home of the Dubai World Cup. I would guess that American dominance of this annual event will soon be a distant memory.


Mr. Dickinson has to look for new Suckers with deep pockets. Dubai fits the profile.

The Suckers he got in the United States are all tapped out! ;)

[andymays]

Sent to the CHRB this morning!

Why do you guys allow this guy to keep putting out propaganda to the public? He’s using shaky statistics from a bad sample to quote the 40%!

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2009/aug/10/horse-racing-safe/

Excerpt:

DR. ARTHUR: Well, you know, to put it in perspective, even if we stopped racing right now at Del Mar, the number would be very similar to what it was before they put the synthetic surface in. And I do think you have to put that into perspective. In terms of racing fatalities, the synthetic surfaces, whether it’s Polytrack, Tapeta at Golden Gate Fields, Pro-Ride at Santa Anita, or Cushion Track at Hollywood Park, overall we’ve seen a 40% reduction in racing fatalities on the comparable dirt surface going back to 2004 before the synthetic surfaces have been put in. So overall, it has been a positive change in terms of racing fatalities in which, you know, obviously it’s a very important factor in why they were installed. It has not gone as smoothly as some people would have liked and there’s been a lot of frustration with the fact that these surfaces are very difficult to maintain.


This from the LA TIMES Bill Dwyre

Bill Dwyre for the LA TIMES

Del Mar is on shaky footing, even before racing starts!

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre-delmar22-2009jul22,0,3407900.column

CHRB figures put the reduction in racing fatalities since the advent of synthetics at 11%. Still, the synthetics remain highly controversial. Some owners and trainers have left the state. Others fear that gamblers who cite a difficulty in handicapping synthetic races are betting elsewhere, or not at all.

[DanG]

Good morning Andy! :)

[andymays]

Good morning Andy! :)


Hey Dan! :)

I'll post the responses to the emails I sent when they come in.

[Robert Fischer]

Mr. Dickinson has to look for new Suckers with deep pockets. Dubai fits the profile.

The Suckers he got in the United States are all tapped out! ;)

Either that or Dubai saw the overwhelming success and massive potential that the 2008 Breeders Cup showcased.

The World Cup is going to be so much better this year than it has in YEARS. The top intermediate distance horses in the rest of the world, have to consider races like the 2009 BC Classic and the 2010 Dubai World Cup because of the purse structure and prestige.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Darley has their own training track at Greentree in Saratoga. Beautiful place by the way. Anyway it's Tapeta. Coincedence? me thinks not. Kiaren has been training all of the Darley runners on that surface all summer. I always wondered about the "official" works that come from there that are listed in DRF. How many works can they get away with that aren't "official"? Any way, Sheik Mo spent $6.5M on 5 yearlings at Saratoga last night so I don't think that he's worried about a little maintenence on his poly tracks.

[gm10]

Yes, the master horseman of Cheltenham fame, without a doubt one of the more prominent voices we were hearing from when this movement was taking off three to four years back. I'm surprised his name doesn't pop up more often in these threads concerning synthetic surfaces. The last I knew Mr. Dickinson's Tapeta Footings was chosen to provide the racing surface for the main track at the new Meydan Racecourse in Dubai. I haven't heard any updates. Meydan will be the new home of the Dubai World Cup. I would guess that American dominance of this annual event will soon be a distant memory.

On the contrary. America is the only country in the world that has its top horses running on the synthetic - just like before.

[Java Gold@TFT]

On the contrary. America is the only country in the world that has its top horses running on the synthetic - just like before.
If you want to think that the group running on the synth in California are America's top horses then you are sadly mistaken. Zenyatta is the only one that could be included in the top 5 of their division. Maybe Zensational too for sprinters but otherwise I don't think so. The top horses in the country certainly aren't running on the synth at Arlington, presque Isle or even Keeneland during their limited meets.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If you want to think that the group running on the synth in California are America's top horses then you are sadly mistaken. Zenyatta is the only one that could be included in the top 5 of their division. Maybe Zensational too for sprinters but otherwise I don't think so. The top horses in the country certainly aren't running on the synth at Arlington, presque Isle or even Keeneland during their limited meets.

I don't think it has sunk into the consciousness of Cali players yet.Once a very real centerpiece of racing where their top horses in the divisions were to be reckoned with around the country.Synthetics have made that reality moot.

Zenyatta isn't the face of California.California isn't the face of racing.Both are sequestered from the rest of the racing world.Zenyatta for all intents and purposes is the Golden Girl of synthetic racing,like it or not.She would be widely hailed with more respect were it not for the surfaces she runs on.

You'd think that players would be upset that not only were there minds made up for them,forcing them to alter their methods,but the prestige of their racing has declined by the universal introduction of a 3rd surface(s).

The backlash should not be at other horseplayers but at the CHRB.

[46zilzal]

Crist and others on their AM talk show from Saratoga were all against the synthetics and pointed to Fatal Bullet's record. This one is NO where on the dirt, yet a monster on the synthocrap.Good horse elevated by its affinity for the rubber.

They were, in unison, all against that surface and made some logical arguments

[andymays]

Sent to Kirk Breed and Mike Marten of the CHRB and copied to several Journalists!


Mr. Breed, as the saga of synthetic surfaces goes on in California it seems that every few days another article comes out dealing with this never ending drama. Dr. Arthur has come out in more than one interview in recent weeks “spinning” statistics on injuries and breakdowns. The most recent example is from the KPBS interview I have included below. So far at Del Mar this year there have been 8 unfortunate fatalities yet every time Rick Arthur is interviewed he cites statistics from 2007 or thereabouts telling the public there has been a 40% reduction in fatalities. This is simply not true! In an LA Times article Bill Dwyre cites “CHRB figures put the reduction in racing fatalities since the advent of synthetics at 11%”. It is common knowledge among informed people in California that up until recently accurate statistics were not even kept regarding fatalities and injuries. There has been more than one instance in 2007 and 2008 of Horses being injured and vanned off only to be euthanized later. These were not always counted as racing fatalities. Dr. Arthur and Joe Harper “spinning” the truth make things worse. It is unacceptable for a public official like Dr. Arthur to mislead the public on a regular basis. Both you and Mike Marten have been “stand up guys” in the past always answering my questions and I hope that will continue here! I plan to point out the misleading information every time it comes out and I will remind Journalists of their duty to the truth in pursuing this matter!
I have a few questions about Dr. Arthur and his ability to continue to serve the public good. At the very least there is an appearance of impropriety here.

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2009/aug/10/horse-racing-safe/


Has Dr. Arthur received gifts, monies, free trips, meals, or stock options from any manufacturer of synthetic surfaces?

Has Dr. Arthur received gifts, monies, free trips, meals, or stock options from any Race Track or Racing Executive in California to promote synthetic surfaces?

Thanks,

Andy

[rrbauer]

Let's see where we're at in 10 years. Remember the IBM PC? Lot's of associated technology was needed to move it into the foregournd. That takes time. There are no silver bullets. In racing, or anywhere else (except, in beers).

Right now, you can find statistics that will support any argument you want to make, visa-a-vis synthetics. Whatever. As a horseplayer, if they're screwing up my approach to the game and I haven't been able to sort through their nuances then I'm going to the sidelines until either the surfaces settle down or my approach to handicapping them improves.

One thing is certain: If the mandate to go to synthetics was a mistake for California, then they're the ones that will pay for that mistake. Big time.

[Bobzilla]

On the contrary. America is the only country in the world that has its top horses running on the synthetic - just like before.


My perspective on this is different. The way I see it is just because top horses based on the left coast have no choice but to run on the AWSs should in no way suggest that they're all best suited to be running on the AWSs. We've already witnessed a few examples of some good performers who were able to pick up their game once having the opportunity to compete on traditional dirt. I'm not saying this is universal but in many cases I think it's true.

In 14 runnings of the Dubai World Cup I believe at least 10 of the winners were American trained. We also saw some strong performances by such European trained hoses such as Singspiel and Dubai Millenium. I believe the transition from turf to synthetic is a more natural one than from dirt to synthetic and this is most apparent when the competition is so tight that anything other than an "A" game will result in defeat. I certainly believe the 71% win rate for American based horses in this event will drop significantly once top class turf animals from around the globe set hoof on the Tapeta. That's not to say that a California based champion may not be able to win the big one at Meydan at some point, and it will be nice when he does, but I believe for the most part this occurence will be a rare one. I believe that many running in California at this time are frustrated dirt performers and may have a hard time competing on synthetics against top class grass competition overseas. Just my opinion.

[Java Gold@TFT]

Intersting articles on Del Mar and Poly in general today:

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/aug/13/n6361922425-favorites-finally-finding-winners-circ/?sports

Basically, Del Mar still hadn't figured out how to maintain the track so they had to rent new equipment from Canada to make it more fair and reliable. They are also blaming the lack of favorites winning in the first week on full fields that somehow confused bettors. :rolleyes:

2nd article:

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=41041

Tim Ice decided to give Belmont winner Summer Bird, recently 2nd in the Haskell, a little jog on the turf. He got the horse because the Bird didn't like the poly in Cal and the owners shipped him east to run on real dirt with pretty good results. Rather than point toward the BC classic he would rather consider the turf. And the BC crew wonders why people get upset about 2 years in a row at SA? Duh, so far two of the three American Classic winners aren't pointing toward the BC Classic even if they are both still in training at the time.

[gm10]

If you want to think that the group running on the synth in California are America's top horses then you are sadly mistaken. Zenyatta is the only one that could be included in the top 5 of their division. Maybe Zensational too for sprinters but otherwise I don't think so. The top horses in the country certainly aren't running on the synth at Arlington, presque Isle or even Keeneland during their limited meets.'

Mine That Bird, Pioneer Of The Nile, Papa Clem and Chocolate Candy are all excellent syntethic horses. They were the numbers 1, 2, 4 and 5 in the KD 2009. Also look at who ran 7, 9 and 10th. They are also excellent on the synthetic. Where was the big dirt specialist Friesan Fire? Where was Dunkirk? Where were tbe big guns I want Revenge and Quality Road on the day that they had to be fit and sound?? I think it's time to wake up and smell the polymers.

[46zilzal]

'

Mine That Bird, Pioneer Of The Nile, Papa Clem and Chocolate Candy are all excellent syntethic horses. They were the numbers 1, 2, 4 and 5 in the KD 2009. Also look at who ran 7, 9 and 10th. They are also excellent on the synthetic. Where was the big dirt specialist Friesan Fire? Where was Dunkirk? Where were tbe big guns I want Revenge and Quality Road on the day that they had to be fit and sound?? I think it's time to wake up and smell the polymers.
Read the chart: they were both wiped out

[FenceBored]

'

Mine That Bird, Pioneer Of The Nile, Papa Clem and Chocolate Candy are all excellent syntethic horses. They were the numbers 1, 2, 4 and 5 in the KD 2009. Also look at who ran 7, 9 and 10th. They are also excellent on the synthetic. Where was the big dirt specialist Friesan Fire? Where was Dunkirk? Where were tbe big guns I want Revenge and Quality Road on the day that they had to be fit and sound?? I think it's time to wake up and smell the polymers.

Would this be the same Mine That Bird that ran last in the 2008 BC Juvenile? But, maybe Chantal wasn't focused on the race. Perhaps she was too busy planning how to use Animal Planet's cameras to corner Mike (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2009/08/13/2009-08-13_being_on_animal_planets_jockeys_helps_keep_coup le_chantal_sutherland_mike_smith_.html) into deep soulful talks about their relationship. :eek:

[gm10]

Read the chart: they were both wiped out

That's how I remember it as well.

[gm10]

Would this be the same Mine That Bird that ran last in the 2008 BC Juvenile? But, maybe Chantal wasn't focused on the race. Perhaps she was too busy planning how to use Animal Planet's cameras to corner Mike (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2009/08/13/2009-08-13_being_on_animal_planets_jockeys_helps_keep_coup le_chantal_sutherland_mike_smith_.html) into deep soulful talks about their relationship. :eek:

He had a very bad trip that day ... 5/5 previously. Fact is ... the KD 2009 was a race for horses who had proven their worth on the synthetics (it was MTB's first win on the dirt).

[Java Gold@TFT]

He had a very bad trip that day ... 5/5 previously. Fact is ... the KD 2009 was a race for horses who had proven their worth on the synthetics (it was MTB's first win on the dirt).
Let's see 5for 5 on the synth in Canada where only one of them was even a G-III race and he is somehow one of America's best? He's won one race since that G-III and please name me one horse he beat in those 5 races of any quality. Pioneer of the Nile is retired so don't worry about him at Sa. If Papa Clem isn't retired I think he is out for the year. I liked Chocolate Candy enough but to make it sound like his wins in No Cal are comparable to the real top horses in the American 3yo division is laughable. So your point is exactly what? Pick out a bunch of horses who have won on the crap in the past and lump them in with the best 3yo's in the country even though the horses you listed have only won one race since leaving the crap? Big deal.

[bisket]

papa clems connections are from california. he's been racing elsewhere to get away from poly

[gm10]

Let's see 5for 5 on the synth in Canada where only one of them was even a G-III race and he is somehow one of America's best? He's won one race since that G-III and please name me one horse he beat in those 5 races of any quality. Pioneer of the Nile is retired so don't worry about him at Sa. If Papa Clem isn't retired I think he is out for the year. I liked Chocolate Candy enough but to make it sound like his wins in No Cal are comparable to the real top horses in the American 3yo division is laughable. So your point is exactly what? Pick out a bunch of horses who have won on the crap in the past and lump them in with the best 3yo's in the country even though the horses you listed have only won one race since leaving the crap? Big deal.

Hey, you can belittle these horses all you like, but they ran 1 2 4 and 5 in the Derby. Two of the big dirt horses were run into oblivion, the two others didn't even make it due to injury. If these synthetics horses are so moderate, why weren't they beaten in the KD?

[gm10]

papa clems connections are from california. he's been racing elsewhere to get away from poly

I've never read that before. All I knew was that they wanted to dry the dirt because of his pedigree. And sure enough, he handles both surfaces. But apparently he got injured after running those dirt races.

[andymays]

I've never read that before. All I knew was that they wanted to dry the dirt because of his pedigree. And sure enough, he handles both surfaces. But apparently he got injured after running those dirt races.


The Trainer of Papa Clem said recently..


"Originally, it was probably 60-40 or 70-30 for (synthetics), and I'd say it's 80-20 against right now, maybe even 90-10," trainer Gary Stute said recently. "I mean, I can't name 10 trainers off-hand that I talk to that actually still like it".

[Java Gold@TFT]

Hey, you can belittle these horses all you like, but they ran 1 2 4 and 5 in the Derby. Two of the big dirt horses were run into oblivion, the two others didn't even make it due to injury. If these synthetics horses are so moderate, why weren't they beaten in the KD?
Well, IMO, the name of the game is winning and the horses you mentioned have collectively won one race since April at that was the Derby. It has been 4 months since one of them beside MTB actually won a horse race. To be a champion you have to win more than a couple of times a year.

[gm10]

Well, IMO, the name of the game is winning and the horses you mentioned have collectively won one race since April at that was the Derby. It has been 4 months since one of them beside MTB actually won a horse race. To be a champion you have to win more than a couple of times a year.

HEy they were there when it mattered to the larger public. Next appointment that matters, beginning of November.

I'm looking forward to seeing Friesan Fire, I Want Revenge and Dunkirk run again, and I'm very glad Quality Road has won a race since May. He was my big favourite for the Derby.

[FenceBored]

I've never read that before. All I knew was that they wanted to dry the dirt because of his pedigree. And sure enough, he handles both surfaces. But apparently he got injured after running those dirt races.

What injury? Papa Clem isn't injured, that I know of. He just finished behind 3 of your DIRT horses in the Haskell.

[andymays]

I've never read that before. All I knew was that they wanted to dry the dirt because of his pedigree. And sure enough, he handles both surfaces. But apparently he got injured after running those dirt races.


What's the score between Del Mar and Saratoga in handle and fatalities?

Saratoga wins hands down on handle and Del Mar wins hands down on fatalities. Major League (Saratoga Dirt) vs. Minor League (Del Mar Poly Misery)

[FenceBored]

Latest word on Papa Clem.
Papa Clem is back in trainer Gary Stute's barn ready to start preparing for a run in the Grade II, $350,000 Del Mar Derby Sunday, September 6.http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/aug/12/stable-notes-del-mar-august-12/?sports

Now we're going to try the grass.

[andymays]

http://blog.bobikepicks.com/2009/08/14/favorites-finally-finding-the-winners-circle-by-ed-zieralski-san-diego-union-tribune/

Excerpt:

Ike said all this plays into how handicappers pick.

“As long as the track stays fair and consistent, as long as times are relatively normal to what we’re used to on a regular dirt track, I don’t have a problem with it,” Ike said.


Isn't it amazing?

People are OK with synthetic surfaces as long as they play like dirt.

Why don't we just have dirt? :bang:

[gm10]

What injury? Papa Clem isn't injured, that I know of. He just finished behind 3 of your DIRT horses in the Haskell.

ah yes you're right - my bad

[gm10]

What's the score between Del Mar and Saratoga in handle and fatalities?

Saratoga wins hands down on handle and Del Mar wins hands down on fatalities. Major League (Saratoga Dirt) vs. Minor League (Del Mar Poly Misery)


Sure, but what is more relevant is, how does Del Mar compare to when it had dirt racing in terms of breakdowns. Could you give me those numbers?

[andymays]

Sure, but what is more relevant is, how does Del Mar compare to when it had dirt racing in terms of breakdowns. Could you give me those numbers?

Well, everyone is looking at the worst year they ever had at Del Mar and using that to measure how successful poly misery is. First of all there is a new base in the track and most intelligent people agree that after 40 years a new base is the most important thing. How safe would the current track be in 40 years?

Secondly if you follow racing in southern california you would know that the Vet inspections in the morning and afternoon are incredibly detailed after the problems they had at Santa Anita earlier in the year. Have you noticed the number of Vet scratches on the way to the starting gate? In spite of all that they are still having a comparable number of breakdowns to Del Mar in a normal year.


So we have a new base and unbelievable Vet inspections in the mornings and afternoons. Quite a success! :lol:

[bisket]

this is strictly my opinion and i have arrived at this conclusion because i watch workout times like a hawk and take the way a horse is trained into strong consideration when handicapping a race. i have felt for years going back to lucas that california trainers work their horses to fast and hard in the mornings. a bullet bob (baffert) trained horse usually races his first 2 races off the bench at peak, and its downhill from there. prior to poly all of your california tracks were speed favoring, and fast works and the lead is what payed the bills. this is why at the lower levels of the sport claiming and allowance horse were breaking down more often. these horse were trained like bullet bobs stars but were still raced like a claimer. anyone who read the the thread about how often a claimer is raced without works can imagine if you add fast work into that schedule will do. what i'm saying is i think its the manner in which horses are trained in cali that has to do with the breakdowns more than the surface.

[46zilzal]

IF these tracks made a QUANTUM LEAP in safety ruggedness to weather (which they have in Florence Kentucky and Toronto) and ease of maintenance (jury still out on this one big time) they would be welcomed with open arms.

So far they have not made good on the majority of promises and have opened up many a question about their long term exposure to the fibers.

Woodbine's is different to all I have followed. Maybe the difference is in the various cushions and base, as Woodbine still runs like it used to.

[cj]

Woodbine's is different to all I have followed. Maybe the difference is in the various cushions and base, as Woodbine still runs like it used to.

Not true, and since I've offered proof many times and you just blab I'll assume you are clueless.

[illinoisbred]

I followed Woodbine closely last year and here's my 2 cents on that track.Track speed can change dramatically from day to day with no corresponding weather change,andthe speed of the surface can change quite a bit during a card,again with no weather change.I've heard this can be due to use of the polytrack tiller,which again,I've heard they often use between races now and then.This season Arlington acquired a tiller and from my own figure making,when used,the surface is slowed approx.5-7 fifths of seconds.This week the track been slower and also its the first time I've seen kickback.I suppose jockeys may be wearing face masks on 85-90 degree days soon.

[andymays]

Time after time, when people who know what they're talking about weigh in on this subject it becomes so clear that synthetic surfaces are not anywhere near what the infomercial claimed they would be.

Four of those people happen to be the Owners/Trainers of two of the best Runners in the country, Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta!

[Java Gold@TFT]

FWIW, Pricci's article on the HOF inductions yesterday.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Saratoga-Diary/

Relevant quote about Baffert:

But there were the tough beats. Real Quiet--was there ever a tougher one?--and Cavonnier, beaten a nose by Lukas and Grindstone 13 years ago.

“We went into a slump,“ Baffert said this week, “but it wasn’t until Cavonnier did I think maybe I can get the [Derby] done.”

That wasn’t Baffert’s only battle with self-doubt. “I was ten minutes from walking away from the sport when the synthetics came in. I sat down to breakfast with [wife] Jill and said ‘I can’t train, and I can’t win.’

“She said take your horses and go to Saratoga. We did, then we won two Breeders’ Cup races.

“The one characteristic is that you have to adapt,” he said. “It’s a tough business. You can’t feel sorry for yourself.”

[andymays]

FWIW, Pricci's article on the HOF inductions yesterday.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/Saratoga-Diary/

Relevant quote about Baffert:

But there were the tough beats. Real Quiet--was there ever a tougher one?--and Cavonnier, beaten a nose by Lukas and Grindstone 13 years ago.

“We went into a slump,“ Baffert said this week, “but it wasn’t until Cavonnier did I think maybe I can get the [Derby] done.”

That wasn’t Baffert’s only battle with self-doubt. “I was ten minutes from walking away from the sport when the synthetics came in. I sat down to breakfast with [wife] Jill and said ‘I can’t train, and I can’t win.’

“She said take your horses and go to Saratoga. We did, then we won two Breeders’ Cup races.

“The one characteristic is that you have to adapt,” he said. “It’s a tough business. You can’t feel sorry for yourself.”

I remember when Baffert came out against synthetics and most of the other Trainers put knives in his back for expressing his opinion. He was right all along. Baffert is a stand up guy!


Roger Stein interviewed Baffert this morning. Archived radio shows at www.rogerstein.com

[46zilzal]

Not true, and since I've offered proof many times and you just blab I'll assume you are clueless.
Since I have repeatedly told you and all here, I evaluate tracks on a completely different avenue than traditionalists, I doubt that one can understand the different yardsticks that energy distribution discovers UNLESS that is the same way they evaluate it.

Iconoclasts find differing ways to look than the crowd does. IT pays in a parimutuel situation.

[cj]

Since I have repeatedly told you and all here, I evaluate tracks on a completely different avenue than traditionalists, I doubt that one can understand the different yardsticks that energy distribution discovers UNLESS that is the same way they evaluate it.

Iconoclasts find differing ways to look than the crowd does. IT pays in a parimutuel situation.

As I've told you before, I know more than enough about energy distribution to know the track is not playing the same as it once did, particularly in routes. Sprints are a lot closer to the old surface, but still different. The longer the race, the bigger the difference.

The track is playing differently both energy wise and positional wise. I've offered my proof many times, what is yours?

[Hanover1]

For a guy who spends millions and wins a scant few American Classics, I fail to see the value. :D

[gm10]

Well, everyone is looking at the worst year they ever had at Del Mar and using that to measure how successful poly misery is. First of all there is a new base in the track and most intelligent people agree that after 40 years a new base is the most important thing. How safe would the current track be in 40 years?

Secondly if you follow racing in southern california you would know that the Vet inspections in the morning and afternoon are incredibly detailed after the problems they had at Santa Anita earlier in the year. Have you noticed the number of Vet scratches on the way to the starting gate? In spite of all that they are still having a comparable number of breakdowns to Del Mar in a normal year.


So we have a new base and unbelievable Vet inspections in the mornings and afternoons. Quite a success! :lol:

Stop making claims without giving any numbers. You're always giving these vague statements, how other intelligent people think this and that, and have you noticed how, etc. Just give me some numbers and comparisons if you're so sure.

[FenceBored]

Stop making claims without giving any numbers. You're always giving these vague statements, how other intelligent people think this and that, and have you noticed how, etc. Just give me some numbers and comparisons if you're so sure.

You're the one who keeps making vague statements. And then you have the audacity to insist that others generate the data to support your argument? Geez. Learn to use a search engine.

[andymays]

Stop making claims without giving any numbers. You're always giving these vague statements, how other intelligent people think this and that, and have you noticed how, etc. Just give me some numbers and comparisons if you're so sure.


First of all Mr. gm10 you've been in this thread for some time now but you must only remember the things you want to remember. More than once it was mentioned that the all encompassing numbers you want are not there. Until earlier this year they were not counted accurately. This year when everyone is counting the numbers aren't so good are they? Right now I think it's Del Mar 9 or 10 fatalities and Saratoga 1. How's that?

After the congressional meeting a summer or two ago, Dr. Arthur made a presentation to the CHRB that said the figures that the CHRB Annual Report contained were flawed and did not include proper numbers because they did not consider morning and off track fatalities and career ending injuries.

He proposed a new data collection system, in coordination with many other major jurisdictions to solve the problem,including a more formal necropsy reporting method.

Up until that time, the CHRB did not report fatalities in terms of 1000 starts as other jurisdictions had done.

As far as backing my statements up with well known people in the business who have been quoted to no end about the folly of synthetic surfaces I don't know what to tell you. Are the quotes invalid?

And another thing, if you're frustrated that the intelligent people on the Board aren't buying your crap then take a hike. But do me a favor and take that hike on a polytrack or whatever else synthetic surface you'd feel most comfortable!


Synthetic Surfaces are more expensive to maintain!

Synthetic Surfacces are not proven to be anywhere near as safe as the informercial claimed!

Synthetic Surfaces have biases that they weren't supposed to have!

And my favorite one of all is:

According to a recent poll of regular Horseplayers 3 out of 4 Horseplayers dislike synthetic surfaces! :ThmbUp:

So take a hike my friend and enjoy it as much as I enjoy responding to your lame comments! ;)

[gm10]

First of all Mr. gm10 you've been in this thread for some time now but you must only remember the things you want to remember. More than once it was mentioned that the all encompassing numbers you want are not there. Until earlier this year they were not counted accurately. This year when everyone is counting the numbers aren't so good are they? Right now I think it's Del Mar 9 or 10 fatalities and Saratoga 1. How's that?

After the congressional meeting a summer or two ago, Dr. Arthur made a presentation to the CHRB that said the figures that the CHRB Annual Report contained were flawed and did not include proper numbers because they did not consider morning and off track fatalities and career ending injuries.

He proposed a new data collection system, in coordination with many other major jurisdictions to solve the problem,including a more formal necropsy reporting method.

Up until that time, the CHRB did not report fatalities in terms of 1000 starts as other jurisdictions had done.

As far as backing my statements up with well known people in the business who have been quoted to no end about the folly of synthetic surfaces I don't know what to tell you. Are the quotes invalid?

And another thing, if you're frustrated that the intelligent people on the Board aren't buying your crap then take a hike. But do me a favor and take that hike on a polytrack or whatever else synthetic surface you'd feel most comfortable!


Synthetic Surfaces are more expensive to maintain!

Synthetic Surfacces are not proven to be anywhere near as safe as the informercial claimed!

Synthetic Surfaces have biases that they weren't supposed to have!

And my favorite one of all is:

According to a recent poll of regular Horseplayers 3 out of 4 Horseplayers dislike synthetic surfaces! :ThmbUp:

So take a hike my friend and enjoy it as much as I enjoy responding to your lame comments! ;)

Those DMR/SAR numbers mean absolutely nothing. You have to compare with Del Mar before the new surface was installed. There is no point comparing with Saratoga; Del Mar didn't install a new surface because there were breakdowns in NY or Indiana or Great Lakes Down or wherever, did they.

More expensive? Show me the data.
Not as safe as the infomercial? Show me the infomercial and maybe we'll agree on this one.
Biases? Show me the data.
3 out of 4 dislike it? OK, so because the 'people' dislike it, it's no good? At least this is some sort of data, I guess, but it says something about what people think, not about what actually IS. And what IS, nobody knows without seeing factual numbers - I certainly wouldn't pretend that I do. In fact I admit that I don't. But I don'tdislike what I've seen so far.

Synthetic surfaces are not perfect, but they are here, and they are just as 'easy' to analyze as dirt (see the numbers that I posted here earlier to prove this.)

[gm10]

You're the one who keeps making vague statements. And then you have the audacity to insist that others generate the data to support your argument? Geez. Learn to use a search engine.

OK smart pants, what IS my argument, according to you?

[andymays]

Those DMR/SAR numbers mean absolutely nothing. You have to compare with Del Mar before the new surface was installed. There is no point comparing with Saratoga; Del Mar didn't install a new surface because there were breakdowns in NY or Indiana or Great Lakes Down or wherever, did they.

More expensive? Show me the data.
Not as safe as the infomercial? Show me the infomercial and maybe we'll agree on this one.
Biases? Show me the data.
3 out of 4 dislike it? OK, so because the 'people' dislike it, it's no good? At least this is some sort of data, I guess, but it says something about what people think, not about what actually IS. And what IS, nobody knows without seeing factual numbers - I certainly wouldn't pretend that I do.

Synthetic surfaces are not perfect, but they are here, and they are just as 'easy' to analyze as dirt (see the numbers that I posted here earlier to prove this.)


Thank you for your continued interest in the thread I started.

In the interest of saving bandwidth please refer to my post #342! ;)

[Indulto]

Listen to John Nerud's opinion in this interview by Steve Haskin:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/watch/8404D1D4-BD34-42A3-804D-DEE10C866419

[andymays]

Listen to John Nerud's opinion in this interview by Steve Haskin:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/watch/8404D1D4-BD34-42A3-804D-DEE10C866419


Now do you believe me? ;)

John Nerud knows what he's talking about! :ThmbUp:

Thanks for pointing me to the interview! :ThmbUp:

[Imriledup]

We just need ONE racetrack to say "synthetics don't work and bettors don't want them ,so we're going back to dirt"


We need ONE track and others will follow (hopefully)

[FenceBored]

OK smart pants, what IS my argument, according to you?

You think I don't know about the Chinese jelly cable in the specifications for Polytrack, don't you. Well, I do. I can no longer sit back and allow synthetic infiltration, synthetic indoctrination, synthetic subversion and the international synthetic conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious thoroughbred dirt tracks. :lol:

[Bruddah]

Mr Nerud and I agree on every point in his interview. If you listen closely to his answers, they are wisdom, built on years of experience and plain old Common Sense.

You can see in the interview, he is a man of great knowledge and experience. He's sharp as a tack at 94.

God Bless him and the other true horsemen in this Sport. :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

You think I don't know about the Chinese jelly cable in the specifications for Polytrack, don't you. Well, I do. I can no longer sit back and allow synthetic infiltration, synthetic indoctrination, synthetic subversion and the international synthetic conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious thoroughbred dirt tracks.
The Jelly cord was a big option brought in to help bind the material that was a cause of serious KICK BACK at Woodbine. It was part of the contract with the supplier and accounted for two separate upgrades there.

[Black Ruby]

With horseracing being so closely connected to Kentucky, I think they should be using KY Jelly! :D

[FenceBored]

The Jelly cord was a big option brought in to help bind the material that was a cause of serious KICK BACK at Woodbine. It was part of the contract with the supplier and accounted for two separate upgrades there.

They didn't use the jelly cable at Del Mar (at least initially) due to concerns about environmental contamination:

Unlike other Polytrack venues – Turfway Park and Keeneland in Kentucky, Arlington Park in Chicago and Woodbine in Canada – the product was installed at Del Mar without an ingredient called the “jelly cable.”

Jelly cable has been described as a waste product imported from China consisting of chopped-up, lubricant-coated plastic previously used to insulate stripped copper wire. It is used as a stabilizing agent. At Del Mar, concerns about copper contaminants getting into the ecosystem precluded the use of the jelly cable.


-- http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20070915-9999-1s15horsecol.html


My search didn't locate anything that jumped out and said they've added it since that first year.

[Bobzilla]

You think I don't know about the Chinese jelly cable in the specifications for Polytrack, don't you. Well, I do. I can no longer sit back and allow synthetic infiltration, synthetic indoctrination, synthetic subversion and the international synthetic conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious thoroughbred dirt tracks. :lol:


Cool post FenceBored! :ThmbUp:

All of a sudden I have an urge to rent out Kubrick's classic Dr. Strangelove. I could be wrong but I think that's what you might have been referring to.

[FenceBored]

Cool post FenceBored! :ThmbUp:

All of a sudden I have an urge to rent out Kubrick's classic Dr. Strangelove. I could be wrong but I think that's what you might have been referring to.


Yep (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/quotes#qt0454442), that's where I got it.

[FenceBored]

OK smart pants, what IS my argument, according to you?

Your argument is that synthetics are preferable to dirt.

In support of your general argument you have used a number of approaches. You have used the generic "dirt is unsafe" approach, including the immortal heart-string-puller:

I think I've been to 20 English turf meets, and only saw one fataility (heart attack). I've been to one dirt meeting in the US and saw one fatality (George Washington).
You also used the "synth is safer than dirt" approach, the "dirt routes are boring, while synth routes are more exciting" approach, the "synth is just as easy to handicap as dirt" approach, the "synth doesn't play like turf" approach, and the "dirt courses are unnatural, so just accept the synthetics" approach. This last included language that would include turf courses as well, so that one is the one I called the "all racecourses are unnatural, so there's just no reason to prefer one type (dirt) over another (synthetic)" approach in one of my posts.

With regards to Del Mar racing fatalities, what we see from the data doesn't convincingly support the safety argument. Looking at the racing fatalities (excludes training and other) from '96-'07, which includes the first year of the polytrack, the lowest were in '01 and '02. And yes, the highest total number of deaths (race, training, and other) for the years '96-'07 came in '06.

[Indulto]

http://hollywoodpark.com/news/hollywood-park-cushion-track-undergoes-renovation-as-track-closed-for-first-time-since-2006-installation (http://hollywoodpark.com/news/hollywood-park-cushion-track-undergoes-renovation-as-track-closed-for-first-time-since-2006-installation)
Hollywood Park Cushion Track Undergoes Renovation As Track Closed For First Time Since 2006 Installation
Hollywood Park Website 08/17/2009… Removal of the nine-inch top layer began following the end of the Spring/Summer Meet in July to permit the washing of the membrane, the geotextile cover which separates the porous base from the top layer.

“We’re taking the material off all the way down to the membrane,” track super-intendent Dennis Moore said. “We are pressure-washing the membrane to clean it all off. It has been down now for three years. We want the membrane cleaned to make sure it is free to drain.

“We will mix the material to where we will have the fresher material mixed back into the top — there was a lot of fresh material right over the membrane,” Moore added. “Then we will put everything back down. It will make quite a bit of difference — add much more life to the track.”

Removal and cleaning of the membrane on the inside 40 feet of the track was completed in early August with workers shifting their attention to the outside of the oval.

“I’m hoping to be done by the first of September, maybe a little sooner,” Moore said. “Horses are due back September third and begin training the next day.”

… The 2009 Autumn Meet will be the seventh conducted on Cushion Track. Live racing is scheduled to begin Nov. 13 and conclude Sunday, Dec. 20, pending approval of the California Horse Racing Board.AM,
Why would HOL spend this kind of money on the track if they didn’t expect to run again in 2010? So much for the demise of any synthetic venues. Maybe the owners of HOL are bidding on SA?

[andymays]

http://hollywoodpark.com/news/hollywood-park-cushion-track-undergoes-renovation-as-track-closed-for-first-time-since-2006-installation (http://hollywoodpark.com/news/hollywood-park-cushion-track-undergoes-renovation-as-track-closed-for-first-time-since-2006-installation)
Hollywood Park Cushion Track Undergoes Renovation As Track Closed For First Time Since 2006 Installation
Hollywood Park Website 08/17/2009AM,
Why would HOL spend this kind of money on the track if they didn’t expect to run again in 2010? So much for the demise of any synthetic venues. Maybe the owners of HOL are bidding on SA?


Thanks for ruining my day. :confused: :eek: :bang: :ThmbDown: :mad: :( :faint: :rolleyes:

[gm10]

Your argument is that synthetics are preferable to dirt.

In support of your general argument you have used a number of approaches. You have used the generic "dirt is unsafe" approach, including the immortal heart-string-puller:








You also used the "synth is safer than dirt" approach



That's not an approach, it's something I believe is true. Btw, I'm not trying to sell synthetics. But I don't buy all the criticism either.

the "dirt routes are boring, while synth routes are more exciting" approach
when did I say that??? routes on the dirt can be just as exciting

the "synth is just as easy to handicap as dirt" approach

which is true (see the numbers that I posted)

, the "synth doesn't play like turf" approach

yeah - so????


, and the "dirt courses are unnatural, so just accept the synthetics"

Yes they are both unnatural, very good. Again, what IS your point?


With regards to Del Mar racing fatalities, what we see from the data doesn't convincingly support the safety argument. Looking at the racing fatalities (excludes training and other) from '96-'07, which includes the first year of the polytrack, the lowest were in '01 and '02. And yes, the highest total number of deaths (race, training, and other) for the years '96-'07 came in '06.

Can I see those numbers please?

[FenceBored]

That's not an approach, it's something I believe is true. Btw, I'm not trying to sell synthetics. But I don't buy all the criticism either.

the "dirt routes are boring, while synth routes are more exciting" approach when did I say that??? routes on the dirt can be just as exciting

That would be an amalgamation of the following two posts:Well if you think I implied this, you misunderstood. When a new track is built, I think it's more of a "let's see the pro's and con's of each surface", and dirt just doesn't come off that well. Well dirt sprint racing especially imo as it seems to do little for the breed. And longer distances on the dirt ... I think we can agree that's a bit boring.
-- post 155 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=720527&postcount=155) of this thread

I think the majority of customers don't want to see horses breaking-down, and prefer watching exciting finishes. If poly delivers on the first point is not 100% sure yet, but the second point is def. achieved.
-- post 233 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=724048&postcount=233) of this thread




which is true (see the numbers that I posted)
yeah - so????
Yes they are both unnatural, very good. Again, what IS your point?

You asked me to describe YOUR position. All I did here was that, without disputing anything.


Can I see those numbers please?

Sure, since you said "please."

Based on the CHRB Annual Reports from 1997- 2008:

All these figures include both main track and turf fatalities resulting from a race.

Fatalities in/after races at Del Mar:

1996: 06
1997: 07
1998: 11
1999: 07
2000: 06
2001: 04
2002: 04
2003: 08
2004: 10
2005: 07
2006: 10
2007 (1): 8
2007 (2): 6

Avg for '96-'06 = 7
Median for '96-'06 = 7

So, you see, regardless of whether you use the initial 2007 number or the adjusted one, there were safer years with a dirt main track. And, the first year on Polytrack was right about the average in terms of racing fatalities.

There are two different numbers for 2007, because the CHRB changed reporting periods between their 2007 report and their 2008 report. This seems to have caused them to report the 2007 Del Mar meet twice (with different figures) and we await the 2009 report to see the 2008 figures (however they decide to massage them this year).

The figure for total deaths during Del Mar in 2006 (race, training, other) was 26. That figure for 2007 is alternately 23 (2007 report), or 13 (2008 report. The figures from the 2006 and 2007 reports include 'training' and 'other' deaths at other So. Cal facilities which occured while Del Mar was the operating track of the circuit. In other words, a death on the Hollywood Cushion Track or the Fairplex dirt surface during training hours would be reported in the Annual Report under Del Mar training deaths. Not the best approach, is it. I think they are moving away from reporting the auxillary facilities' figures, which would account for lower 'training' and 'other' numbers, but that still doesn't explain the 2 fewer race fatalities in the 2008 report.

[gm10]

That would be an amalgamation of the following two posts:

-- post 155 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=720527&postcount=155) of this thread


-- post 233 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=724048&postcount=233) of this thread






You asked me to describe YOUR position. All I did here was that, without disputing anything.



Sure, since you said "please."

Based on the CHRB Annual Reports from 1997- 2008:

All these figures include both main track and turf fatalities resulting from a race.

Fatalities in/after races at Del Mar:

1996: 06
1997: 07
1998: 11
1999: 07
2000: 06
2001: 04
2002: 04
2003: 08
2004: 10
2005: 07
2006: 10
2007 (1): 8
2007 (2): 6

Avg for '96-'06 = 7
Median for '96-'06 = 7

So, you see, regardless of whether you use the initial 2007 number or the adjusted one, there were safer years with a dirt main track. And, the first year on Polytrack was right about the average in terms of racing fatalities.

There are two different numbers for 2007, because the CHRB changed reporting periods between their 2007 report and their 2008 report. This seems to have caused them to report the 2007 Del Mar meet twice (with different figures) and we await the 2009 report to see the 2008 figures (however they decide to massage them this year).

The figure for total deaths during Del Mar in 2006 (race, training, other) was 26. That figure for 2007 is alternately 23 (2007 report), or 13 (2008 report. The figures from the 2006 and 2007 reports include 'training' and 'other' deaths at other So. Cal facilities which occured while Del Mar was the operating track of the circuit. In other words, a death on the Hollywood Cushion Track or the Fairplex dirt surface during training hours would be reported in the Annual Report under Del Mar training deaths. Not the best approach, is it. I think they are moving away from reporting the auxillary facilities' figures, which would account for lower 'training' and 'other' numbers, but that still doesn't explain the 2 fewer race fatalities in the 2008 report.

I don't find dirt routes boring AT ALL. But synthetic routes tend to have better finishes, yes.

Thanks for the safety numbers for new Del Mar which aren't great but there does seem to be a small improvement compared to the last four dirt years. There is of course still a learning curve for the maintenance crews, so hopefully things will get even better.

[gm10]

Interesting article from drf

Achieving synthetic consistency

By Steve Davidowitz
During the three-year history of the Polytrack era at Del Mar racetrack, horseplayers have had to deal with significant changes from season to season, if not week to week.

In 2007, the Polytrack surface was at least three seconds slower than the dirt track at sprint distances, and upwards of five seconds at 1 1/8 miles.

We certainly had never seen anything like the the slow 2007 Polytrack that produced a 2:07 clocking in the Grade 1 Pacific Classic at 1 1/4 miles. Indeed, this clocking was more than eight seconds slower than the track record that had been set on Del Mar's dirt main track for the distance, a clocking that would have approximated par for a $5,000 claiming race at Thistledown.

~~the rest~~

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=106447

[andymays]

Jeff Nahill on Del Mar

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_b2d6c4b7-c6c7-568c-833e-2ffdc78d4435.html

Excerpt:

Thumbs down to speed biases that pop up out of nowhere at Del Mar. Friday's track produced a no passing lane that stayed up early on the Saturday program, too.

[rwwupl]

FenceBored wrote,




Based on the CHRB Annual Reports from 1997- 2008:

All these figures include both main track and turf fatalities resulting from a race.

Fatalities in/after races at Del Mar:

1996: 06
1997: 07
1998: 11
1999: 07
2000: 06
2001: 04
2002: 04
2003: 08
2004: 10
2005: 07
2006: 10
2007 (1): 8
2007 (2): 6

Avg for '96-'06 = 7
Median for '96-'06 = 7

So, you see, regardless of whether you use the initial 2007 number or the adjusted one, there were safer years with a dirt main track. And, the first year on Polytrack was right about the average in terms of racing fatalities.

There are two different numbers for 2007, because the CHRB changed reporting periods between their 2007 report and their 2008 report. This seems to have caused them to report the 2007 Del Mar meet twice (with different figures) and we await the 2009 report to see the 2008 figures (however they decide to massage them this year).

The figure for total deaths during Del Mar in 2006 (race, training, other) was 26. That figure for 2007 is alternately 23 (2007 report), or 13 (2008 report. The figures from the 2006 and 2007 reports include 'training' and 'other' deaths at other So. Cal facilities which occured while Del Mar was the operating track of the circuit. In other words, a death on the Hollywood Cushion Track or the Fairplex dirt surface during training hours would be reported in the Annual Report under Del Mar training deaths. Not the best approach, is it. I think they are moving away from reporting the auxillary facilities' figures, which would account for lower 'training' and 'other' numbers, but that still doesn't explain the 2 fewer race fatalities in the 2008 report.[/QUOTE]


Great Post! Dr. Arthur and the CHRB have been revising the numbers and comparing the synthetics to the high point number(06-07) at Del Mar to show great progress. The fact is Del Mar had a number of years that fatalities were less than the national average.

I have had recent exchange with Dr. Arthur and the CHRB concerning the reconstruction of data and the release of charts that are self serving to show great progress. Dr. Arthur has said previously that the CHRB data was seriously flawed and the CHRB never collected data during those years of fatalities per 1000 starts as other jurisdictions have done.

Dr. Arthur, in coordination with other jurisdictions has developed a new data collection system which will improve many of the flaws pointed out above, but it is in no condition yet to be relied upon except for talking points.

I do not feel right to point out everything that was said but the new data will be a big improvement when it has been in place long enough to be statistically reliable and then the picture will become more clear.
rwwupl

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_22ff555c-a8b1-5e75-b5ba-83c239b43285.html

Excerpt:

DEL MAR ---- Two more thoroughbreds were fatally injured during morning training hours on Thursday, bringing the number of fatalities to 10 for the current Del Mar meet.

[owlet]

"It's tough when one breaks down," said Tom Robbins, Del Mar's vice president of racing. "But to have two ... and the second one was just galloping. It's a freaky deal.

"The morning injuries are very puzzling. We continue to look at a lot of different things. To me, the track has been incredibly consistent."

Tracks sources said several trainers didn't send their horses to work out on Wednesday morning due to the hardness of the surface, but Robbins said he hasn't heard any complaints.

"I have trainers saying the track is fine," Robbins said. "It's tough." >>

[url]http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_22ff555c-a8b1-5e75-b5ba-83c239b43285.html[/url

Later in the interview, Robbins went on to articulate some of his other sincere and deeply-held beliefs, such as that the earth is flat. "I've have many qualified geologists saying the issue is settled," he said, "such as my neighbor's two year old daughter."

[Java Gold@TFT]

Almost the opposite of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". Keep telling people the same thing that isn't true and they eventually stop listening. Then all of sudden the wolf comes up and eats him. Only in his case if he just keeps saying that everything is OK when it's not, then all of a sudden the trainers and owners will leave and he won't have any horses left to run at his track.

[andymays]

Almost the opposite of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". Keep telling people the same thing that isn't true and they eventually stop listening. Then all of sudden the wolf comes up and eats him. Only in his case if he just keeps saying that everything is OK when it's not, then all of a sudden the trainers and owners will leave and he won't have any horses left to run at his track.


What gets me more than anything is if they interview Joe Harper and Dr. Rick Arthur tomorrow the'll say it's 40% more safe than dirt. And they'll do it with a straight face!

[Pace Cap'n]

"It's tough when one breaks down," said Tom Robbins, Del Mar's vice president of racing. "But to have two ... and the second one was just galloping. It's a freaky deal.

www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing (http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_22ff555c-a8b1-5e75-b5ba-83c239b43285.html)

[andymays]

Yeah but think of all the short fields Del Mar would have if it didn't have an all weather surface for those rainy days!

Oh yeah, it's only rained (muddy track) during the meet once or twice in the last 20 years! :lol:


Slowly but surely the truth about synthetic surfaces is coming out!

According to a recent poll nearly 3 out of 4 Horseplayers dislike synthetic surfaces. :ThmbUp:

[DanG]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good crusade…

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/some-del-mar-notables.html

Aug-20th excerpt:
“Heading into the fifth week of its 37-day summer meet, Del Mar officials announced huge double-digit gains in both on-track attendance and handle for the first 20 days of the meet.

Average daily on-track attendance was up 11.8 percent and daily handle showed an increase of 12.8 percent heading into Wednesday's nine-race card.”
As far as “consistency” in the racing; someone please show me where the DMR fav % is anything but the national average or in the case of sprints well beyond it. If you think the dirt from our nations premier meet in Saratoga has played “consistent”; I respectfully could not disagree more.

BTW-I: Both meets have offered great opportunities and Saratoga’s meet (excluding weather issues) has been terrific imo.

BTW-II: Once again broke my vow to steer clear of the internet synth echo chamber, but every 200 posts maybe one dissenting voice can help this thread hit the 20,000 plateau. (Theresia...it's your turn next ;) :))

BTW-III: Morning Andy, enjoy your weekend! :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good crusade…

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/some-del-mar-notables.html

Aug-20th excerpt:

As far as “consistency” in the racing; someone please show me where the DMR fav % is anything but the national average or in the case of sprints well beyond it. If you think the dirt from our nations premier meet in Saratoga has played “consistent”; I respectfully could not disagree more.

BTW-I: Both meets have offered great opportunities and Saratoga’s meet (excluding weather issues) has been terrific imo.

BTW-II: Once again broke my vow to steer clear of the internet synth echo chamber, but every 200 posts maybe one dissenting voice can help this thread hit the 20,000 plateau. (Theresia...it's your turn next ;) :))

BTW-III: Morning Andy, enjoy your weekend! :ThmbUp:


Dan you know I think the world of you, but your facts in this case not so much.

As far as consistency goes any figure maker like CJ would tell you that the speed of the surface has been anything but constistent from Wednesday to Sunday. It gets faster as the week progresses.

First of all as you well know Del Mar went from 6 days per week to five. What your facts aren't taking into account in addition to the reduction in days is the fact that most days have a least 1 extra race on the card. Average daily attendance and average daily handle going up are a bit misleading don't you think? And in the most recent article by Bloodhorse that I cited below I'm not so sure the numbers given by Del Mar are accurate and I'm currently looking into it.

Secondly on the issue of attendance. Del Mar has been misleading people like yourself for several years now by adding concert goers to the Racing Attendance. Take last weekend. On Friday the band Common Sense played. On the very next day, Saturday the Flaming Lips played. Do you think the attendance numbers are skewed just a little?

Remember this article from opening week?

Given that opening week was way down according to an article by Jeff Nahill.

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_bb954de1-8dab-5a1f-a1c9-7f120e1963a8.html

Excerpt:

Del Mar only wishes the rest of the week had gone as well.
Total handle was down 8.8 percent on Thursday, 21 percent on Saturday and 28 percent on Sunday -- even with an extra race on the program.

Yesterday an article by Bloodhorse told a much different story.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52195/double-digit-increases-at-del-mar?source=rss

Excerpt:

Beyond the on-track averages, Del Mar's total wagering numbers nearly even with last year's. When all sources are considered for handle purposes -- including satellite betting in the state, as well as out-of-state, out-of-country and ADW wagering -- those daily average are up 0.2% after four weeks.


How do you count out of country handle?

Is Del Mar fudging the truth? Maybe just a little? :lol:

By the way Dan this is a good Crusade and it won't end anytime soon due to the fact that every couple of days a new article comes out about these junk surfaces. The surface should'nt be an issue but it is. Del Mar lost another couple of runners in morning workouts yesterday. One was just jogging around the Track.

So much for the claims the synthetic infomercials made. ;)

How many misleading claims did the Synthetic Advocates make? :rolleyes:

According to a recent poll nearly 3 out of 4 Horseplayes dislike synthetic surfaces. I wonder why? :bang:

[andymays]

By Art Wilson

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/news-item-two-more-horses.html

Excerpt:

Reaction: Del Mar and every race track in the state needs to take a hard look at their surfaces and strongly consider the installation of safer, gentlier tracks. Oh wait, we already went down that road, didn't we?

Del Mar, on the heels of a terrible 2006 meet in terms of fatalities and the Barbaro tragedy in the Preakness, installed Polytrack before the 2007 season because -- we were told -- it would reduce deaths and injuries. We were told they were maintenance free. We were told they would attract horsemen from all over the country. We were told they would lead to larger fields. We were told they would cure world hunger ... well, the synthetic proponents didn't go that far, but you get the point.

So far, everything we have been told has turned out to be false. Correct me if I'm wrong, but has Saratoga and its dirt track been beseiged by so many fatal breakdowns during its current meet? And the state of New York didn't just waste $40-plus million on the installation of these "safer and kinder" surfaces.

Oh yeah, and want more good news? If you're a horse player, tread lightly next week at Del Mar. On Monday and Tuesday, the track may be power harrowed, meaning we don't know if a parade of come-from-behind long shots will pop up or if the speed bias that has existed for much of the summer will continue to hold true.

It seems like every time someone on the Board disputes the validity of the problems with these surfaces a new article drops in my lap. Maybe it's just a coincidence. ;)

[illinoisbred]

By Art Wilson

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/news-item-two-more-horses.html

Excerpt:

Reaction: Del Mar and every race track in the state needs to take a hard look at their surfaces and strongly consider the installation of safer, gentlier tracks. Oh wait, we already went down that road, didn't we?

Del Mar, on the heels of a terrible 2006 meet in terms of fatalities and the Barbaro tragedy in the Preakness, installed Polytrack before the 2007 season because -- we were told -- it would reduce deaths and injuries. We were told they were maintenance free. We were told they would attract horsemen from all over the country. We were told they would lead to larger fields. We were told they would cure world hunger ... well, the synthetic proponents didn't go that far, but you get the point.

So far, everything we have been told has turned out to be false. Correct me if I'm wrong, but has Saratoga and its dirt track been beseiged by so many fatal breakdowns during its current meet? And the state of New York didn't just waste $40-plus million on the installation of these "safer and kinder" surfaces.

Oh yeah, and want more good news? If you're a horse player, tread lightly next week at Del Mar. On Monday and Tuesday, the track may be power harrowed, meaning we don't know if a parade of come-from-behind long shots will pop up or if the speed bias that has existed for much of the summer will continue to hold true.

It seems like every time someone on the Board disputes the validity of the problems with these surfaces a new article drops in my lap. Maybe it's just a coincidence. ;)
This has been one of my biggest gripes this year.When does Arlington Park use the power tiller and did betting public know it?To use terminology like uniformity or consistency of the surface is simply white lies,or worse,ignorance.I know they put it up on their website when its used,but how many attendees read that.

[illinoisbred]

Arlington was power harrowed to a depth of 4 inches but not tilled today.I've never seen kickback at AP until last week and continuing so far this week.The change in energy distribution or race shape the winner ran has been radically different from 2 weeks ago.So much for uniformity or consistency.Are the powers that be that naive or just plain stupid?

[andymays]

Arlington was power harrowed to a depth of 4 inches but not tilled today.I've never seen kickback at AP until last week and continuing so far this week.The change in energy distribution or race shape the winner ran has been radically different from 2 weeks ago.So much for uniformity or consistency.Are the powers that be that naive or just plain stupid?

I would imagine the same stuff happens on every synthetic surface it's just that in California more people call them on it.

I can't for the life of me understand why they don't admit it's a failure and move on. I don't know if it's the egos of the people that put them in or if they have money invested in companies that manufacture the junk.

The bottom line is now that Horseplayers see these surfaces for what they are they don't like what they see. The Racing Executives can't B.S. the public any longer!

[racingplanet]

On Monday and Tuesday, the track may be power harrowed, meaning we don't know if a parade of come-from-behind long shots will pop up or if the speed bias that has existed for much of the summer will continue to hold true.


You have to use your eyes. You are lucky in USA that you can have 9-10 races on a card. That gives you 2-3 races to have a good look at the track before getting stuck into the better races later on the card. Anyone betting the early races needs a very good reason to do so in my opinion eg. the price compensates. In UK we get very little info on how tracks are worked and to be truthful I wouldnt trust it anyway. I trust my eyes and they will tell me if the track is favouring speed, late pace or neutral, and if there is any inside or outside bias.

http://mboard.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/1236084792

GOOD LUCK

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106578.html

Excerpt:

DEL MAR, Calif. - A day after two horses were euthanized as a result of injuries suffered during training, and amidst complaints from trainers about the firmness of the track, Del Mar altered the maintenance procedure of its synthetic main track Friday.

Friday's maintenance, which took place after training hours, may be the first of two such projects within a week. A second more extensive maintenance may occur after training hours Monday, depending on how the surface reacts over the weekend, according to director of racing Tom Robbins.

Track workers on Friday harrowed the Polytrack synthetic surface to a depth of 3 1/2 to 4 inches with a "cultivator" machine that is designed to "loosen the material and get some air down there," Robbins said.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

08/21/2009 7:30AM - 8:00AM Gallop Master n/a (5) Gallop Masters set to racing depth (2 5/8 inches) groom from inside to outside rail

08/21/2009 8:00AM - 10:30AM Training n/a Horses on Polytrack

08/21/2009 10:30AM - 11:00AM Cultivator n/a (1) Cultivator set to 3 inches, groom from inside to outside rail

08/21/2009 11:00AM - 11:30AM Gallop Master n/a (5) Gallop Masters set to racing depth (2 5/8 inches) groom from inside to outside rail

08/21/2009 11:45AM - 12:15AM Water n/a 3 Loads of Water (1 load on inside lanes, 1 load on outside lanes, 1 load in chutes)

08/21/2009 1:00PM Air Temp 73 n/a

08/21/2009 1:00PM Track Temp 80 n/a

08/21/2009 1:15PM - 1:45PM Gallop Master n/a (5) Gallop Masters set to racing depth (2 5/8 inches) groom from inside to outside rail

[andymays]

After they worked on it there appears to be a strong inside bias. The horses that rally wide are having a tough time. In the third race one of them rallied wide in the stretch and won. All the others stayed in the first 4 lanes with the rail being the golden spot. In the 6th race #9 Emba U.T.K stayed on the rail and won at $100.20 and it looked like crap in the form.

[JeremyJet]

I can't for the life of me understand why they don't admit it's a failure and move on.

It's frickin' amazing, ain't it? Every year it's the same thing ... renovation, renovation, renovation. What a joke.

Keep it up, Andy. Keep up the preasure. I admire what you're doing.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_18c19f13-c1fc-50e2-ab88-b049e8142001.html


Excerpt:

Through Thursday, Del Mar's on-track attendance had increased 11.2 percent over its daily average last year. On-track handle has declined "only" 5.6 percent, which is good in this economic climate, Ernst said.

The track's overall handle is down 16 percent from 2008, but those numbers include Mondays, which Del Mar dropped in favor of a five-day racing week. If you add in last year's Monday average of approximately $8.5 million, then Del Mar would be down only $7 million total in handle.


Hope this fact helps Dan. Just sayin! ;)

[DanG]

I will take your word for everything Andy. I believe your heart is in the right place as opposed to the element that scans the synthetic charts “hoping” for a fatality while genuinely caring less for the animal and passenger in general. My favorite segment of complainers is those who have never stepped foot on California soil or bet serious money there in there lives; yet they are screaming to high heaven because…they frankly enjoy screaming to high heaven.

I heard enough California bashing for a whole set of ‘different’ reasons growing up in Jersey and it wasn’t until I saw there racing in person in the 80’s that I realized it was in large measure a load of provincial crap.

Within the mix of the genuinely concerned (as yourself) / the ‘live to complain about life in general crowd / the players who are losing over it and lashing out / there are those who may be 110% mistaken that the surface change was ever necessary even while remembering the horrendous national carnage that precipitated the change.

As far as the inconsistent aspects concerning figure making and betting…not the case; but if anyone believes that to be true…it IS the case for them. I’m too busy betting all 3 surfaces to give this subject the written attention it deserves, but I do appreciate the effort you put into genuine concerns. In the end; were on the same team, but I hope we don’t have to agree 100% along the way to ultimately arrive at the same place.

All the best this weekend!

[andymays]

I will take your word for everything Andy. I believe your heart is in the right place as opposed to the element that scans the synthetic charts “hoping” for a fatality while genuinely caring less for the animal and passenger in general. My favorite segment of complainers is those who have never stepped foot on California soil or bet serious money there in there lives; yet they are screaming to high heaven because…they frankly enjoy screaming to high heaven.

I heard enough California bashing for a whole set of ‘different’ reasons growing up in Jersey and it wasn’t until I saw there racing in person in the 80’s that I realized it was in large measure a load of provincial crap.

Within the mix of the genuinely concerned (as yourself) / the ‘live to complain about life in general crowd / the players who are losing over it and lashing out / there are those who may be 110% mistaken that the surface change was ever necessary even while remembering the horrendous national carnage that precipitated the change.

As far as the inconsistent aspects concerning figure making and betting…not the case; but if anyone believes that to be true…it IS the case for them. I’m too busy betting all 3 surfaces to give this subject the written attention it deserves, but I do appreciate the effort you put into genuine concerns. In the end; were on the same team, but I hope we don’t have to agree 100% along the way to ultimately arrive at the same place.

All the best this weekend!


Dan it comes down to the Racing Executives and Racing Officials misleading the public on a regular basis and that drives me absolutely crazy. It has gotten to the point in California where you have to assume whatever they say is misleading whether it's the Track attendance, Track handle, or injuries and fatalities on synthetic surfaces. The reason everyone is counting now is because when these surfaces came out and for two years after they were heralded as the safest thing since seat belts. Anyone who disagreed was labeled as a Horse hater.

I fully recognize that my aggressive style regarding these surfaces grinds on some on the board but the facts and the majority of Horseplayers are on my side.

I hope that your opinion isn't just based on my style without considering all the facts and opinions of Horse Racing Experts that I have provided to no end.

Always a pleasure Dan and I hope you have a good weekend as well!

[DanG]

I hope that your opinion isn't just based on my style without considering all the facts and opinions of Horse Racing Experts that I have provided to no end.

I would like to think not Andy, but we all feel that way about our opinions.

The time we should all worry is when (God forbid) people don’t care enough to discuss racing and its many issues.

[gm10]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/106578.html

Excerpt:

DEL MAR, Calif. - A day after two horses were euthanized as a result of injuries suffered during training, and amidst complaints from trainers about the firmness of the track, Del Mar altered the maintenance procedure of its synthetic main track Friday.

Friday's maintenance, which took place after training hours, may be the first of two such projects within a week. A second more extensive maintenance may occur after training hours Monday, depending on how the surface reacts over the weekend, according to director of racing Tom Robbins.

Track workers on Friday harrowed the Polytrack synthetic surface to a depth of 3 1/2 to 4 inches with a "cultivator" machine that is designed to "loosen the material and get some air down there," Robbins said.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

08/21/2009 7:30AM - 8:00AM Gallop Master n/a (5) Gallop Masters set to racing depth (2 5/8 inches) groom from inside to outside rail

08/21/2009 8:00AM - 10:30AM Training n/a Horses on Polytrack

08/21/2009 10:30AM - 11:00AM Cultivator n/a (1) Cultivator set to 3 inches, groom from inside to outside rail

08/21/2009 11:00AM - 11:30AM Gallop Master n/a (5) Gallop Masters set to racing depth (2 5/8 inches) groom from inside to outside rail

08/21/2009 11:45AM - 12:15AM Water n/a 3 Loads of Water (1 load on inside lanes, 1 load on outside lanes, 1 load in chutes)

08/21/2009 1:00PM Air Temp 73 n/a

08/21/2009 1:00PM Track Temp 80 n/a

08/21/2009 1:15PM - 1:45PM Gallop Master n/a (5) Gallop Masters set to racing depth (2 5/8 inches) groom from inside to outside rail

For crying out loud, they're trying to do the right thing aren't they? Be a bit more positive. What's the alternative? Go back to the dirt days when at least as many horses broke down?

[andymays]

For crying out loud, they're trying to do the right thing aren't they? Be a bit more positive. What's the alternative? Go back to the dirt days when at least as many horses broke down?


They reworked the surface and produced an extreme bias that led to a carryover. That worked well for them while they were trying to do the right thing didn't it. How well did it work out for the bettors who didn't know about the rail bias? The $100 winner of the 6th liked it. The #9 stayed on the rail and it payed off.

Del Mar has consistently misled the public regarding their surface, handle, and attendance. If you like being misled then by all means carry on.

And by the way I'll be a bit more positive when they admit their mistake and go back to a dirt surface. I'll also be a bit more positive when they stop misleading the public!

The Racing Officials at Del Mar are :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

[rwwupl]

It's frickin' amazing, ain't it? Every year it's the same thing ... renovation, renovation, renovation. What a joke.

Keep it up, Andy. Keep up the preasure. I admire what you're doing.

Regards,

JeremyJet



Count me in on that motion. :ThmbUp:

[illinoisbred]

Me too!

[joanied]

andy...
I've been too busy to spend much time here of late...harvesting our malt barley...but just wanted to jump in, again...and say I support what you are doing...especially with the latest 2 casualties on this so called safe surface!!

Keep up the good work:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: andymays... we've got your back:)

[andymays]

Thanks for the good words guys. :ThmbUp:

I wish the insane people who run the Tracks in California would listen!

[Robert Fischer]

i disagree Andy. The handicapping is better as a result of the synthetics and the 2008 breeders cup was a huge success. I think you are way off on this one.

[andymays]

i disagree Andy. The handicapping is better as a result of the synthetics and the 2008 breeders cup was a huge success. I think you are way off on this one.


According to a recent poll nearly 3 out of 4 Horselayers dislike synthetic surfaces. :)

The majority of those Horseplayers would like them removed immediately from Tracks where weather is not a problem. :)

Race Tracks can give their customers what they want or lose business. :eek:

By the way I love that poll! :ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

i disagree Andy. The handicapping is better as a result of the synthetics and the 2008 breeders cup was a huge success. I think you are way off on this one.

Well, I disagree with you. I had my worst Breeders Cup EVER in 2008. Went for synth/turf horses, just the wrong ones. :bang:

I even had this silly Canadian in the Juvenile, can't remember his name, after that jockey, Chanille, Shandra, whatever rode him to a last place finish, I know he'll never amount to anything. :)

[Bruddah]

For crying out loud, they're trying to do the right thing aren't they? Be a bit more positive. What's the alternative? Go back to the dirt days when at least as many horses broke down?

If they had spent as much time and money building better drainage systems and bases for dirt tracks, then AWs would be showing more deaths than dirt tracks. They were never going to allow dirt tracks to win the argument. The comparisons have always been about an uneven playing field.(pun intended ;) ) They have done eveything possible to skew the numbers in favor of AWs, including fabrication of the truth. (lying) But, just like real life, the truth always comes to the surface. (pun intended ;) )

The whole damn mess has been about Globalization of racing and allowing a few "Blue Bloods" to make profits while doing so. For gosh sakes wake up and smell the coffee. That odor you're smelling is horse sh*t, not coffee. :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

According to a recent poll nearly 3 out of 4 Horselayers dislike synthetic surfaces. :)

The majority of those Horseplayers would like them removed immediately from Tracks where weather is not a problem. :)

Race Tracks can give their customers what they want or lose business. :eek:

By the way I love that poll! :ThmbUp:
Polling is a funny science.

next your going to show me a poll where Kids prefer McDonald's to a home cooked meal as evidence to change dinner to chicken nuggets. :jump:

Even if by chance a scientific, unbiased, poll was given to a representative group of horseplayers, I'm not so sure that I should be putting a whole lot of stock into the generalized opinion of the group of horseplayers. I depend on my contrarian individual opinion being better than these guys by the very nature of the pari mutuel contest.

I certainly would be hesitant to side with the "majority" here after I've seen improved handicapping experience and a better breeders cup with one of the best Classic's we've had in years. I don't know what to say to the players who had a bad experience at the 2008 BC with great horses and a fair surface. This is a contest of skill not everyone will have their day concurrently.

I would be strongly against historic and quality tracks like Belmont or Churchill Downs changing to synthetic, but the California change has been extremely positive, and Keeneland is a goldmine. Arlington and Woodbine are actually playable on their main track which might not be true with dirt. For a guy that prefers dirt racing, I sure am happy with some of the synthetic tracks.

[andymays]

Polling is a funny science.

next your going to show me a poll where Kids prefer McDonald's to a home cooked meal as evidence to change dinner to chicken nuggets. :jump:

Even if by chance a scientific, unbiased, poll was given to a representative group of horseplayers, I'm not so sure that I should be putting a whole lot of stock into the generalized opinion of the group of horseplayers. I depend on my contrarian individual opinion being better than these guys by the very nature of the pari mutuel contest.

I certainly would be hesitant to side with the "majority" here after I've seen improved handicapping experience and a better breeders cup with one of the best Classic's we've had in years. I don't know what to say to the players who had a bad experience at the 2008 BC with great horses and a fair surface. This is a contest of skill not everyone will have their day concurrently.

I would be strongly against historic and quality tracks like Belmont or Churchill Downs changing to synthetic, but the California change has been extremely positive, and Keeneland is a goldmine. Arlington and Woodbine are actually playable on their main track which might not be true with dirt. For a guy that prefers dirt racing, I sure am happy with some of the synthetic tracks.


California has been extremely positive??? :lol:

You probably should read the thread from the beginning. :bang:

Please refer to my other 109 posts!

[rwwupl]

Robert Fischer wrote:

I depend on my contrarian individual opinion being better than these guys by the very nature of the pari mutuel contest.
I certainly would be hesitant to side with the "majority" here after I've seen improved handicapping experience and a better breeders cup with one of the best Classic's we've had in years. I don't know what to say to the players who had a bad experience at the 2008 BC with great horses and a fair surface. This is a contest of skill not everyone will have their day concurrently.
I would be strongly against historic and quality tracks like Belmont or Churchill Downs changing to synthetic, but the California change has been extremely positive, and Keeneland is a goldmine. Arlington and Woodbine are actually playable on their main track which might not be true with dirt. For a guy that prefers dirt racing, I sure am happy with some of the synthetic tracks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------You may think of yourself as the reincarnation of "Pittsburgh Phil", which is fine with me, but you seem to be unaware of the current condition of our favorite game,especially in Ca. due to synthetics, drugs, leadership and on and on.

If you would take the time to read up on things you will discover that racing is not growing, it is shrinking despite your loyalty.

There is nothing positive about Ca. racing at this time. What are you smoking?

[Robert Fischer]

Robert Fischer wrote:
You may think of yourself as the reincarnation of "Pittsburgh Phil", which is fine with me, but you seem to be unaware of the current condition of our favorite game,especially in Ca. due to synthetics, drugs, leadership and on and on.

If you would take the time to read up on things you will discover that racing is not growing, it is shrinking despite your loyalty.

There is nothing positive about Ca. racing at this time. What are you smoking?

you took me out of context.

I just wanted to make it clear that this thread doesn't represent me , and it doesn't represent all horseplayers.

To restate my reasons: the handicapping is better at the tracks I mentioned with the synthetic, and the breeders cup was a huge success.

I also find nothing in common between the synthetic surface and the other negative issues you mention or ones seriously impact our game such as under utilization of mass media as a means of broadcasting, and lack of organization by horseplayers.

[andymays]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52257/countdown-to-the-cup-classic-confusion?id=52257&source=rss

Excerpt:

This year’s Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I) is such an odd concoction of grass and synthetic horses and undistinguished older dirt horses it’s difficult to make a worthwhile list of potential starters.

Excerpt:

As thrilling as that sounds, there is no denying the Classic has lost its way and its identity. It did last year and likely will again this year, and needs desperately to get back on dirt. It’s the Classic, not the Grassic.

[Robert Fischer]

Yea haskins is real goof sometimes.

last year we had Henry The Navigator, Curlin and Raven's Pass and a strong supporting cast. That is 3 of the best horses n the world. And we got to see them on a fair surface in a situation that had never been done before bringing the best of europe and america on the same battleground. They held up their end of the bargain in a tremendous race where all 3 ran huge. It was one of the better classics of all time in terms of raw quality, and on top of that there was huge value with the best animal (navigator) going at something like 20-1!
Any real handicapper/horseplayer would love that shit. Basically a smorgasbord for the senses of all things that make a great race.

This year we have Sea The Stars possibly coming over and he may be the best horse in the world, and we have a really special horse here Gio Ponti who probably isn't a mile and a half horse , so this fits him perfectly, along with stars Rachel and Zenyatta who's owners (so far) have been gutless, along with an interesting supporting cast and probably some other top intermediate euros.

Again any real handicapper/horseplayer is looking forward to it salivating.



http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52257/countdown-to-the-cup-classic-confusion?id=52257&source=rss

Excerpt:

This year’s Breeders’ Cup Classic (gr. I) is such an odd concoction of grass and synthetic horses and undistinguished older dirt horses it’s difficult to make a worthwhile list of potential starters.

Excerpt:

As thrilling as that sounds, there is no denying the Classic has lost its way and its identity. It did last year and likely will again this year, and needs desperately to get back on dirt. It’s the Classic, not the Grassic.

[andymays]

Yea haskins is real goof sometimes.

last year we had Henry The Navigator, Curlin and Raven's Pass and a strong supporting cast. That is 3 of the best horses n the world. And we got to see them on a fair surface in a situation that had never been done before bringing the best of europe and america on the same battleground. They held up their end of the bargain in a tremendous race where all 3 ran huge. It was one of the better classics of all time in terms of raw quality, and on top of that there was huge value with the best animal (navigator) going at something like 20-1!
Any real handicapper/horseplayer would love that shit. Basically a smorgasbord for the senses of all things that make a great race.

This year we have Sea The Stars possibly coming over and he may be the best horse in the world, and we have a really special horse here Gio Ponti who probably isn't a mile and a half horse , so this fits him perfectly, along with stars Rachel and Zenyatta who's owners (so far) have been gutless, along with an interesting supporting cast and probably some other top intermediate euros.

Again any real handicapper/horseplayer is looking forward to it salivating.
Fair Surface? :lol:

Pro Ride is the most extreme of all synthetic surfaces. I hit the exacta in last years classic by using the Europeans and throwing Curlin out. The surface matters quite a bit. How many went wire to wire on the main track in last years Breeders Cup? How about none! :eek:

[gm10]

If they had spent as much time and money building better drainage systems and bases for dirt tracks, then AWs would be showing more deaths than dirt tracks. They were never going to allow dirt tracks to win the argument. The comparisons have always been about an uneven playing field.(pun intended ;) ) They have done eveything possible to skew the numbers in favor of AWs, including fabrication of the truth. (lying) But, just like real life, the truth always comes to the surface. (pun intended ;) )

The whole damn mess has been about Globalization of racing and allowing a few "Blue Bloods" to make profits while doing so. For gosh sakes wake up and smell the coffee. That odor you're smelling is horse sh*t, not coffee. :rolleyes:

Hmmm, the majority of the world races on the turf. Globalization this ain't.

[gm10]

Fair Surface? :lol:

Pro Ride is the most extreme of all synthetic surfaces. I hit the exacta in last years classic by using the Europeans and throwing Curlin out. The surface matters quite a bit. How many went wire to wire on the main track in last years Breeders Cup? How about none! :eek:

Why is wire-to-wire more fair than last-to-first anyway?

[gm10]

i disagree Andy. The handicapping is better as a result of the synthetics and the 2008 breeders cup was a huge success. I think you are way off on this one.

I completely agree. Handicapping is not hugely more complicated as long as you keep an open mind. And the BC 2008 was a fantastic event. Sure, Curlin continued his downward curve and was beaten by fitter animals, but that doesn't diminish the value of the entire BC.

[CincyHorseplayer]

[/B]
Fair Surface? :lol:

Pro Ride is the most extreme of all synthetic surfaces. I hit the exacta in last years classic by using the Europeans and throwing Curlin out. The surface matters quite a bit. How many went wire to wire on the main track in last years Breeders Cup? How about none! :eek:




Andy you beat me to it.

Again the pretentiousness of the "Fair" comments are just not true.It's not a neutral surface,it's a 3rd surface,and it's a foreign surface,an unnatural surface.And that it's but a few years old,it is not the mark,it is not the gold standard for measuring champions.I think it's so clearly obvious that some of these comments amaze me.California,because of the surfaces,has reduced itself to a 2nd rate circuit IMO.

[andymays]

Why is wire-to-wire more fair than last-to-first anyway?


gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

[andymays]

Andy you beat me to it.

Again the pretentiousness of the "Fair" comments are just not true.It's not a neutral surface,it's a 3rd surface,and it's a foreign surface,an unnatural surface.And that it's but a few years old,it is not the mark,it is not the gold standard for measuring champions.I think it's so clearly obvious that some of these comments amaze me.California,because of the surfaces,has reduced itself to a 2nd rate circuit IMO.


Absolutely! :ThmbUp:

[rwwupl]

Yea haskins is real goof sometimes.

last year we had Henry The Navigator, Curlin and Raven's Pass and a strong supporting cast. That is 3 of the best horses n the world. And we got to see them on a fair surface in a situation that had never been done before bringing the best of europe and america on the same battleground. They held up their end of the bargain in a tremendous race where all 3 ran huge. It was one of the better classics of all time in terms of raw quality, and on top of that there was huge value with the best animal (navigator) going at something like 20-1!
Any real handicapper/horseplayer would love that shit. Basically a smorgasbord for the senses of all things that make a great race.

This year we have Sea The Stars possibly coming over and he may be the best horse in the world, and we have a really special horse here Gio Ponti who probably isn't a mile and a half horse , so this fits him perfectly, along with stars Rachel and Zenyatta who's owners (so far) have been gutless, along with an interesting supporting cast and probably some other top intermediate euros.

Again any real handicapper/horseplayer is looking forward to it salivating.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Main Entry:contrarianPronunciation:k*n-*trer-*-*n, k*n-
Function:noun
Date:1657

: a person who takes a contrary position or attitude; specifically : an investor who buys shares of stock when most others are selling and sells when others are buying
–contrarian adjective


If this is your key to success,may the wind be with you.

America is great!

[andymays]

---------------------------------------------------------------------




If this is your key to success,may the wind be with you.

America is great!


Absolutely! :ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

I hit the exacta in last years classic by using the Europeans and throwing Curlin out.
You were extremely lucky that Albarado moved Curlin too early.
There is more to evaluating a wager than simply looking at the results. This kind of thinking is full of the same misconceptions that may keep Jackson from entering Rachel in the Classic as the rightful underlay she deserves to be. It boils down to watching/understanding the race itself.


Fair Surface? :lol:

Pro Ride is the most extreme of all synthetic surfaces.The surface matters quite a bit. How many went wire to wire on the main track in last years Breeders Cup? How about none! :eek:
In the context of my sentence I was using "fair surface" to emphasize that most stars from dirt or turf could compete on equal footing. There was a slight closer bias for that weekend. Hard to exactly call that a negative , even in a vacuum, but for a dirt-lover who has to ENDURE hundreds of boring sprints a week on SPEED BIASED tracks where jockeys press outside without cover and bid prematurely 3wide on the turn as their signature move, it must be extremely refreshing.

And yes there was at LEAST 1 wire to wire race the Juvenile went wire to wire and the top 3 actually went 1-2-3 which is normally indicative of a forward setup :eek::eek::eek::eek:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6636/wirethis.jpg

[andymays]

You were extremely lucky that Albarado moved Curlin too early.
There is more to evaluating a wager than simply looking at the results. This kind of thinking is full of the same misconceptions that may keep Jackson from entering Rachel in the Classic as the rightful underlay she deserves to be. It boils down to watching/understanding the race itself.



In the context of my sentence I was using "fair surface" to emphasize that most stars from dirt or turf could compete on equal footing. There was a slight closer bias for that weekend. Hard to exactly call that a negative , even in a vacuum, but for a dirt-lover who has to ENDURE hundreds of boring sprints a week on SPEED BIASED tracks where jockeys press outside without cover and bid prematurely 3wide on the turn as their signature move, it must be extremely refreshing.

And yes there was at LEAST 1 wire to wire race the Juvenile went wire to wire and the top 3 actually went 1-2-3 which is normally indicative of a forward setup :eek::eek::eek::eek:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6636/wirethis.jpg


Midshipman sat second early or am I seeing things? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm not saying it's impossible to win on or near the lead but you have to be much the best.

[Robert Fischer]

Midshipman sat second early or am I seeing things? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

don't be a smartass :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[andymays]

don't be a smartass :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


Facts can be a little inconvenient sometimes! ;)

[FenceBored]

In the context of my sentence I was using "fair surface" to emphasize that most stars from dirt or turf could compete on equal footing. There was a slight closer bias for that weekend. Hard to exactly call that a negative , even in a vacuum, but for a dirt-lover who has to ENDURE hundreds of boring sprints a week on SPEED BIASED tracks where jockeys press outside without cover and bid prematurely 3wide on the turn as their signature move, it must be extremely refreshing.

And yes there was at LEAST 1 wire to wire race the Juvenile went wire to wire and the top 3 actually went 1-2-3 which is normally indicative of a forward setup :eek::eek::eek::eek:


And the combined number of dirt starts for those three horses prior to the BC Juvenile was? Anyone, anyone? ZERO.

Midnight Lute (9/3/0) was the ONLY horse to win a main track BC race last year who had more starts on dirt than AW/Turf. The total number of dirt starts for all 7 of the other main track winners was ... 3.

That don't sound like a 'fair' surface for dirt horses to me.

[gm10]

gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

Why is it unfair when a horse win from the back rather than the front? Is it unfair if a basketball team wins the game after trailing at half time?

[gm10]

Midshipman sat second early or am I seeing things? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm not saying it's impossible to win on or near the lead but you have to be much the best.

Of the 21 races on Fri/Sat, three races were won on the front end.
So one in seven. It gives every horse a decent chance of winning. That's FAIR imo.

[andymays]

Why is it unfair when a horse win from the back rather than the front? Is it unfair if a basketball team wins the game after trailing at half time?


gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

[gm10]

gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

You can keep repeating that, but it doesn't help you.

WHY IS IT UNFAIR WHEN A LATE RUNNING HORSE IS FIRST AFTER THE ENTIRE DISTANCE OF THE RACE HAS BEEN RUN?

[andymays]

Oak Tree Surface Renovation on 8-24:lol:


http://www.oaktreeracing.com/season/workoutcam.php

[andymays]

[QUOTE=gm10]You can keep repeating that, but it doesn't help you.



Actually it helps quite a bit! :D



gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

[andymays]

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_18c19f13-c1fc-50e2-ab88-b049e8142001.html


Excerpt:

Through Thursday, Del Mar's on-track attendance had increased 11.2 percent over its daily average last year. On-track handle has declined "only" 5.6 percent, which is good in this economic climate, Ernst said.

The track's overall handle is down 16 percent from 2008, but those numbers include Mondays, which Del Mar dropped in favor of a five-day racing week. If you add in last year's Monday average of approximately $8.5 million, then Del Mar would be down only $7 million total in handle.


Hope this fact helps Dan. Just sayin! ;)


This email from the San Diego Union today!

Hello Andy,

Thanks for writing to us about the news brief on handle at the Del Mar Racetrack. Your point is well taken. The brief that I wrote originally included the phrase "at the track" - i.e., people "at the track" were wagering an average of $2.4 million per day, which was an increased amount from last year's daily average. As you correctly noted, that was an important phrase because most wagering these days happens at satellite facilities or online. As you said, the overall handle has actually declined significantly for Del Mar when those off-track facilities are included in the statistics. In the published brief, that phrase seems to have been deleted.

I have requested a correction/clarification from the editor.


Thanks again for your interest. I'll be writing a story at the end of the racing season in which I'll address overall handle and on-track handle amounts.

Tanya Mannes, Staff Writer
The San Diego Union-Tribune
5130 Avenida Encinas, Carlsbad CA 92008

[tzipi]

Hello all. Yeah I think the public is turning a bit on synthetic track racing. I myself stay away too from betting synthetic.

LOL I loved the posted comment from Zito on the thread. So true.

[andymays]

Hello all. Yeah I think the public is turning a bit on synthetic track racing. I myself stay away too from betting synthetic.

LOL I loved the posted comment from Zito on the thread. So true.


Welcome to the Board tzipi! :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/08/another-fatality-at-del-mar.html

Excerpt:

Two jockeys were injured and one horse was euthanized during Del Mar training hours Monday morning, San Diego Union-Tribune racing writer Hank Wesch reported on his blog.

Zetta's Corridor, a 3-year-old filly trained by Kathy Walsh, broke a front leg and fell at about 8:15 a.m., tossing exercise rider David Rodriguez to the ground. Zetta's Corridor, who finished third in her career debut at Del Mar on July 31, had to be euthanized and became the 11th fatality at the track since July 19.

[rwwupl]

This email from the San Diego Union today!

Hello Andy,

Thanks for writing to us about the news brief on handle at the Del Mar Racetrack. Your point is well taken. The brief that I wrote originally included the phrase "at the track" - i.e., people "at the track" were wagering an average of $2.4 million per day, which was an increased amount from last year's daily average. As you correctly noted, that was an important phrase because most wagering these days happens at satellite facilities or online. As you said, the overall handle has actually declined significantly for Del Mar when those off-track facilities are included in the statistics. In the published brief, that phrase seems to have been deleted.

I have requested a correction/clarification from the editor.


Thanks again for your interest. I'll be writing a story at the end of the racing season in which I'll address overall handle and on-track handle amounts.

Tanya Mannes, Staff Writer
The San Diego Union-Tribune
5130 Avenida Encinas, Carlsbad CA 92008


Another example of California B.S.--It happens too often to be a simple error. Another newspaper chain in the L.A. area was duped by a rosy news release by Del Mar that was full of holes recently and they are not happy about it.

You can not believe all the racing B.S. these days.

[gm10]

[QUOTE=gm10]You can keep repeating that, but it doesn't help you.



Actually it helps quite a bit! :D



gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

why is it unfair when from-behind horses win their share of races?
why do you stubbornly refuse to answer this

[proximity]

[QUOTE=andymays]

why is it unfair when from-behind horses win their share of races?
why do you stubbornly refuse to answer this

well, if establishing a forward position in the first quarter mile of the race is of little or no importance, then why not just subtract 2 furlongs from all of the races?

also on some of these surfaces/races, momentum can be a factor..... the early pace can be soooo slow that getting a running start from behind can actually be an advantage compared to traditional dirt racing where almost everyone is decelerating in the last half of the race.

[illinoisbred]

[QUOTE=andymays]

why is it unfair when from-behind horses win their share of races?
why do you stubbornly refuse to answer this
I don't pretend to speak for Andy Mays here but from my experience closers actually win more than their fair share of races at times.Fractional times often are so slow that all entrants are in close attendance to the early pace.This scenario which occurs often really throw a great number of races into the so-called "chaos" classification.In average day-in-and-out races this situation doesn't favor front-runners they lack the ability to pick it up and run a good figure.Also,it rarely favors the best closer,the pace just isn't quick enough.Now I know this can happen in dirt racing too,it just doesn't happen3-4 times a card like it can on Polytrack.

[FenceBored]

[QUOTE=andymays]

why is it unfair when from-behind horses win their share of races?
why do you stubbornly refuse to answer this

Sticking just to BC races on the main, you had 1/8 or 12.5% won by a horse on or near the lead. To say that is closers winning their fair share is to say that the situation at CD in 2006 where 4/5 main track races were won by the :1: is just the rail horse winning its fair share. There was quite a ruckus over that. Just a shame they groomed away the conveyor belt on the rail before the Classic. Brother Derek over Invasor, Bernardini would have paid nicely. :)

[gm10]

Andy and Illionoisbred ... I don't see how you can make the jump from your aguments to calling the surface unfair. If 80% of the horses are stalkers or deep closers, and only 20% of the races are won by pace horses ... isn't this the ultimate fair surface? Each horse has the same chance regardless of the horse's style.

Fencebored ... you are refering to a rail bias, where the 1 wins many times more often than you could expect. But if 20% of the horses are pace types, why would it be fairer if they won 40% of the races? It's a race, isn't it? The winner is decided at the finishing line?

[illinoisbred]

Andy and Illionoisbred ... I don't see how you can make the jump from your aguments to calling the surface unfair. If 80% of the horses are stalkers or deep closers, and only 20% of the races are won by pace horses ... isn't this the ultimate fair surface? Each horse has the same chance regardless of the horse's style.

Fencebored ... you are refering to a rail bias, where the 1 wins many times more often than you could expect. But if 20% of the horses are pace types, why would it be fairer if they won 40% of the races? It's a race, isn't it? The winner is decided at the finishing line?
For me this is kind of like a what came 1st- chicken or egg argument.The human elements {jockeys/trainers}operate and perform to their preconceived notions on how the surface plays ,many times these notions don't match reality.I'm not always sure it is the surface,I just wish races were run they way they'll run once they return to Hawthorne.If they would do this then I could say with some certainty that its the surface or not the surface.My major objection to synthetic surfaces has always been artificially-run races.

[andymays]

Andy and Illionoisbred ... I don't see how you can make the jump from your aguments to calling the surface unfair. If 80% of the horses are stalkers or deep closers, and only 20% of the races are won by pace horses ... isn't this the ultimate fair surface? Each horse has the same chance regardless of the horse's style.

Fencebored ... you are refering to a rail bias, where the 1 wins many times more often than you could expect. But if 20% of the horses are pace types, why would it be fairer if they won 40% of the races? It's a race, isn't it? The winner is decided at the finishing line?


Nearly 50% carryover rate at the last meeting in the pick 6 is unfair to Horseplayers. :eek:

gm10 please refer to my other 111 posts on this subject. Thanks for your contiued interest in the Thread I started.

[FenceBored]

Andy and Illionoisbred ... I don't see how you can make the jump from your aguments to calling the surface unfair. If 80% of the horses are stalkers or deep closers, and only 20% of the races are won by pace horses ... isn't this the ultimate fair surface? Each horse has the same chance regardless of the horse's style.

Fencebored ... you are refering to a rail bias, where the 1 wins many times more often than you could expect. But if 20% of the horses are pace types, why would it be fairer if they won 40% of the races? It's a race, isn't it? The winner is decided at the finishing line?

Golly gee, you got me. I guess you can have a rail bias, but not a closer bias.

Except the figures go like this using Bris notations:

35 E or E/P types (Early)
42 P or S types (Late)
07 NA (these are European horses whose pp lines have no internal calls)

Let's throw the NA with the P & S types to simplify things, so we get:

Runners
35 Early _42%
49 Late _58%
81 total 100%

Winners
01 Early _12.5%
07 Late _87.5%
08 Total 100%

ITM
07 Early _29%
17 Late _71%
24 Total 100%

Bottom 3
17 Early _71%
07 Late _29%
24 Total 100%

Even in the BC Sprint, the race where you would expect speed to hold best, the order of finish was L,E,L,L,E,E,E,E. And the E type who finished 2nd is a synth specialist. Seems indicative a bias toward horses from well off the pace to me.

[Robert Fischer]

One thing we should all agree on is that if renovations are made to Del Mar's track, the stretch needs to be lengthened. 914 feet is simply too short and is an issue that actually cheapens the track and deters me from playing as much as I would with a classier track.

[Robert Fischer]

and a word about bias
something that you rarely hear horseplayers convey is an understanding of the way a balanced track should play. A track is supposed to have a so called "inside bias" - meaning that saving ground and racing in cover should be advantageous. There is a difference between an inside/outside (path) bias that exists because of a weather or maintenance issue and the natural inside bias that should exist on a nice track, and the whole topic is abused enough by misinterpretation, but is certainly worth noting to some extent, and worth having the ability to "read" it.

also a balanced track is supposed to have a slight closer bias. In order for for a front runner to beat an equally good stalker/closer , the front runner must get an easy slow pace, or save a lot of ground(see above) in comparison to the closer. If these advantages don't take place, the front runner must be significantly stronger in order to win.

IMPORTANT - the above is simply a primer on the slight bias that are supposed to exist on a balanced track. This is not related to the breeders cup discussion, only to the discussion of bias. It is not apologetic for, or a justification of any bias that may have existed on that day. If i were asked to give an expert opinion, I would estimate that there was a closer bias(in addition to the natural closer bias that is supposed to exist) in play for the 2008 breeders cup. I happened to note it and attempted to use it to my advantage and for the small sample size it seemed to work very well. If I recall correctly the same closer bias seemed to be in play at least the 2nd half of the Friday card preemptive of the BC. ( legalise what is it good for?:rolleyes:)

[gm10]

Golly gee, you got me. I guess you can have a rail bias, but not a closer bias.

Except the figures go like this using Bris notations:

35 E or E/P types (Early)
42 P or S types (Late)
07 NA (these are European horses whose pp lines have no internal calls)

Let's throw the NA with the P & S types to simplify things, so we get:

Runners
35 Early _42%
49 Late _58%
81 total 100%

Winners
01 Early _12.5%
07 Late _87.5%
08 Total 100%

ITM
07 Early _29%
17 Late _71%
24 Total 100%

Bottom 3
17 Early _71%
07 Late _29%
24 Total 100%

Even in the BC Sprint, the race where you would expect speed to hold best, the order of finish was L,E,L,L,E,E,E,E. And the E type who finished 2nd is a synth specialist. Seems indicative a bias toward horses from well off the pace to me.

First ... 94 horses? This is not the full sample of the two days.
Second ... 35 + 49 = 84 not 81
Third ... I get different numbers than you

23 horses were on or within half a length of the pace, 2 won (9%)
31 horses were stalking (between 0.5 and 3/5 lengths for sprint/route), 2 won (6%)
91 horses were further down the field, 9 won (11%)

So you're looking at 11% vs 9%.
Sorry, that's not a bias - you'll find more bias in the colour of jockey silks imo.

[gm10]

One thing we should all agree on is that if renovations are made to Del Mar's track, the stretch needs to be lengthened. 914 feet is simply too short and is an issue that actually cheapens the track and deters me from playing as much as I would with a classier track.

Yes, I 've thought that as well a few weeks ago. It doesn't go well with the majestic nature of the beast imo.

[Robert Fischer]

Yes, I 've thought that as well a few weeks ago. It doesn't go well with the majestic nature of the beast imo.

:ThmbUp: i guess it shows that although we may not agree with everything, there are some things we share common ground on.

[andymays]

Let me see now.

We should embrace synthetic surfaces right? :rolleyes: :eek:

We should change the configuration of some of our Race Tracks like Del Mar right? :rolleyes: :eek:

Is there anything else you would like us backward Americans to do for you? :rolleyes: :eek:

If so, can you please list them so we can change our Racing in America to meet your vision. :eek: :rolleyes:

Personally I'll stick with the Owners and Trainers of arguably the two best Runners in America today. Jess Jackson, John Shireffs, Steve Asmussen, and Jerry Moss. They all agree that .......

"Synthetic surfaces are the worst thing to ever happen to racing in this country" :ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

Is there anything else you would like us backward Americans to do for you? :rolleyes: :eek:

If so, can you please list them so we can change our Racing in America to meet your vision. :eek: :rolleyes:


:D

Boy .... talk about an ignorant defensive derogatory response.

attack the messenger? where did this stuff even come from?
I guess having a civil discussion is too dificult?
And what the heck is this patriotic stuff have anything to do with a handicapper that was born raised and resides in the United States ? do you have me confused with one of the members from the UK?

I guess addressing a mutual issue like "length of stretch" that affects both players who prefer dirt and synthetic equally is too threatening??

Not very open minded at all are you? Your kind of reply strongly suggests that your interest is not with improving the quality of racing, but actually a self interest in the "crusade against synthetic surfaces" ... :rolleyes:

I guess Saratoga is UN-AMERICAN? with its 1150foot stretch?
+236 more feet than the Del Mar track images/UBGX/05.gif
that is un f-n believable!

Churchill 1,234 +320
Belmont 1,097 +180
Pimlico 1,152 +238
Fairgrounds 1,346 +432
UNAMERICAN ?????
What are you even talking about? :lol:

what a ****ing joke. there goes your credibility, nutcase.

[andymays]

Robert let me tell you something.

You called me a smart ass when I pointed out that nobody went wire to wire in last years Breeders Cup which is a fact. You never retracted this statement and you've had a day to do so. You have no credibility from here on out because you chose the low road.

Other than current and future events everything has been asked and answered in this thread yet you and your buddy continue to play childish games and waste bandwidth.

Might I suggest starting a thread where you both can put forth your agenda and recommendations in a manner you see fit. We'll see how many hits you get!

[andymays]

Jeff Nahill of the North County Times is one of the few Reporters to call Del Mar out. Good For Jeff!

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_9d1cd899-93ce-5720-b743-9bbb13955b78.html?mode=story

Excerpt:

Thumbs down to three more horses being euthanized at Del Mar in the last week. No one seems to know what the deal is with the Polytrack. Some trainers say it' s fine, others say it's too hard. Can't we just get a safe track for racing and training?


Thumbs up to jockey Joel Rosario. With Baze's injury, he has all but wrapped up the riding title. Watch him during the race, he's good ---- whether it's on a favorite or long shot.

Thumbs down to the track biases that continually show up at Del Mar. As soon as the Polytrack is worked you can count on some bias showing up, whether it be an inside speed bias or rally wide bias. Give rally wide horses another shot if they ran last Friday or Saturday. Inside was the place to be and the rally wide horses never got there.

Thumbs down to Del Mar's spin doctors regarding attendance and handle numbers. Yes, I know this is a 37-day meet as opposed to a 43-day meet of a year ago, but just drop the Mondays from last year's numbers and give us the real dope. I think you'll find things aren't really that bad when you tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

[gm10]

Jeff Nahill of the North County Times is one of the few Reporters to call Del Mar out. Good For Jeff!

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_9d1cd899-93ce-5720-b743-9bbb13955b78.html?mode=story

Excerpt:

Thumbs down to three more horses being euthanized at Del Mar in the last week. No one seems to know what the deal is with the Polytrack. Some trainers say it' s fine, others say it's too hard. Can't we just get a safe track for racing and training?


Thumbs up to jockey Joel Rosario. With Baze's injury, he has all but wrapped up the riding title. Watch him during the race, he's good ---- whether it's on a favorite or long shot.

Thumbs down to the track biases that continually show up at Del Mar. As soon as the Polytrack is worked you can count on some bias showing up, whether it be an inside speed bias or rally wide bias. Give rally wide horses another shot if they ran last Friday or Saturday. Inside was the place to be and the rally wide horses never got there.

Thumbs down to Del Mar's spin doctors regarding attendance and handle numbers. Yes, I know this is a 37-day meet as opposed to a 43-day meet of a year ago, but just drop the Mondays from last year's numbers and give us the real dope. I think you'll find things aren't really that bad when you tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

* No group of trainers will ever agree on a surface. They are all trying to win the same races. The only time that they won't need any excuses is when they all win all the time.
* The attendance and handle is down EVERYWHERE. It's the economy, ***
* The occurence and severity of biases is nothing special. They happen all over the US, all over the world, on every surface.

Andy listen, you are spending a lot of energy on this. The handicapping not like it used to be when you were probably winning big bucks on the Del Mar dirt. But maybe your energy would be better spent if you tried to learn about how the surface plays???

[andymays]

http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/2009/08/24/daily21.html

Excerpt:

Attendance and betting on thoroughbred horse racing at Saratoga Race Course continue to outpace last year’s levels, racing officials said on Aug. 24.
With two-thirds of this year’s meet in the books, attendance totals 588,200, up 1.2 percent from last year’s pace.

Also, on-track bets at Saratoga are up 3.2 percent, to $74.3 million. “All-sources” bets, including those placed on Saratoga races from TV simulcast outlets nationwide, are up 1 percent, to $326.2 million.



Saratoga seems to be able to give the public the no spin version of attendance and handle when Del Mar cannot. Good for Saratoga! :ThmbUp:

[gm10]

http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/2009/08/24/daily21.html

Excerpt:

Attendance and betting on thoroughbred horse racing at Saratoga Race Course continue to outpace last year’s levels, racing officials said on Aug. 24.
With two-thirds of this year’s meet in the books, attendance totals 588,200, up 1.2 percent from last year’s pace.

Also, on-track bets at Saratoga are up 3.2 percent, to $74.3 million. “All-sources” bets, including those placed on Saratoga races from TV simulcast outlets nationwide, are up 1 percent, to $326.2 million.



Saratoga seems to be able to give the public the no spin version of attendance and handle when Del Mar cannot. Good for Saratoga! :ThmbUp:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52195/double-digit-increases-at-del-mar

"At it passed the mid-point of its 2009 meet, the Del Mar Thoroughbred Club reported double-digit increases in on-track attendance and wagering.
With 20 of 37 racing days in the books, on-track attendance was running 11.8% ahead of last season, while on-track handle numbers were up 12.8% for the first four weeks of the 2008 meeting. Del Mar had raced on a six days per week since 1946, but citing a horse shortage in the state and the downturn of the general economy it received approval from the California Horse Racing Board to drop its Monday programs (with the exception of Labor Day) and cut back to a five-day week."


Seems like old Del Mar is not doing that badly either - attendance is growing 10 times as fast than at the spa, while handle growth is 4 times as good. And this with a 5-day racing week. Thanks for making me look this up Andy :ThmbUp: .

[rwwupl]

Jeff Nahill of the North County Times is one of the few Reporters to call Del Mar out. Good For Jeff!

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_9d1cd899-93ce-5720-b743-9bbb13955b78.html?mode=story

Excerpt:

Thumbs down to three more horses being euthanized at Del Mar in the last week. No one seems to know what the deal is with the Polytrack. Some trainers say it' s fine, others say it's too hard. Can't we just get a safe track for racing and training?


Thumbs up to jockey Joel Rosario. With Baze's injury, he has all but wrapped up the riding title. Watch him during the race, he's good ---- whether it's on a favorite or long shot.

Thumbs down to the track biases that continually show up at Del Mar. As soon as the Polytrack is worked you can count on some bias showing up, whether it be an inside speed bias or rally wide bias. Give rally wide horses another shot if they ran last Friday or Saturday. Inside was the place to be and the rally wide horses never got there.

Thumbs down to Del Mar's spin doctors regarding attendance and handle numbers. Yes, I know this is a 37-day meet as opposed to a 43-day meet of a year ago, but just drop the Mondays from last year's numbers and give us the real dope. I think you'll find things aren't really that bad when you tell the truth and nothing but the truth.


Reporter Jeff Nahill of North County Times is on the scene every day. Message seems clear to me.

[robert99]

Reporter Jeff Nahill of North County Times is on the scene every day. Message seems clear to me.

Does Jeff explain how polytrack actually injures horses? - No.

Does Jeff consider that overseas they put in AW training tracks to reduce injuries and run horses coming back from problems on AW polytracks? - No.

Does Jeff not know that you can put bias anywhere you like on a dirt track or a polytrack by the bias you might apply in harrowing, watering and rolling? -No
(It is nothing to do with polytrack but everything to do with the skill of the maintenance crew.)

Cannot Jeff see that there are all sorts of other factors going on with racing that are not all caused by polytrack? - No.

After 30 pages of preaching to the choir and ignoring any counter evidence, does anyone here not understand that effect is not cause? To have a credible argument you need to listen to the counter arguments and test the pro arguments real hard. The opposite is happening and the issue for formulating any realistic change that the authorities would heed is going nowhere. :ThmbDown:

[andymays]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52195/double-digit-increases-at-del-mar

"At it passed the mid-point of its 2009 meet, the Del Mar Thoroughbred Club reported double-digit increases in on-track attendance and wagering.
With 20 of 37 racing days in the books, on-track attendance was running 11.8% ahead of last season, while on-track handle numbers were up 12.8% for the first four weeks of the 2008 meeting. Del Mar had raced on a six days per week since 1946, but citing a horse shortage in the state and the downturn of the general economy it received approval from the California Horse Racing Board to drop its Monday programs (with the exception of Labor Day) and cut back to a five-day week."


Seems like old Del Mar is not doing that badly either - attendance is growing 10 times as fast than at the spa, while handle growth is 4 times as good. And this with a 5-day racing week. Thanks for making me look this up Andy :ThmbUp: .


gm10 you continue to repeat things that have already been adressed in this thread. Please refer to posts #371,#372,#373, and #381! You are beginning to seem to have some obsession with addressing me personally even though I have indicated previously that I consider you a nuisance because you keep repeating things that have been addressed. Please knock it off!

This is post #381

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/eques...49e8142001.html


Excerpt:

Through Thursday, Del Mar's on-track attendance had increased 11.2 percent over its daily average last year. On-track handle has declined "only" 5.6 percent, which is good in this economic climate, Ernst said.

The track's overall handle is down 16 percent from 2008, but those numbers include Mondays, which Del Mar dropped in favor of a five-day racing week. If you add in last year's Monday average of approximately $8.5 million, then Del Mar would be down only $7 million total in handle.

This is from post #422 It is from a reporter that put up the misleading information in the San Diego Union.

This email from the San Diego Union today!

Hello Andy,

Thanks for writing to us about the news brief on handle at the Del Mar Racetrack. Your point is well taken. The brief that I wrote originally included the phrase "at the track" - i.e., people "at the track" were wagering an average of $2.4 million per day, which was an increased amount from last year's daily average. As you correctly noted, that was an important phrase because most wagering these days happens at satellite facilities or online. As you said, the overall handle has actually declined significantly for Del Mar when those off-track facilities are included in the statistics. In the published brief, that phrase seems to have been deleted.

I have requested a correction/clarification from the editor.


Thanks again for your interest. I'll be writing a story at the end of the racing season in which I'll address overall handle and on-track handle amounts.

Tanya Mannes, Staff Writer
The San Diego Union-Tribune
5130 Avenida Encinas, Carlsbad CA 92008

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Once again gm10 knock off the B.S. and move on. I don't appreciate your intentional vandalism in this thread. Take the time and make an effort to read the entire thread before you comment out of hand.

As I said I consider you an nuisance at this point and I would appreciate it if you would move on!

[illinoisbred]

Geez i wish the media here in Illinois would report and document surface issues and breakdown numbers.I personally don't have a clue outside of race breakdowns.I know many trainers use the training track here,its very small but still has a dirt surface.I think I mentioned earlier that from what friends/family who frequent the backstretch tell me; many horses after racing and training on this polytrack are developing a type of body soreness not commonly seen on dirt surfaces.Entries have dropped-off considerably here in the last 2 weeks.Tommorow's card has 58 entries spread over 8 races. From personal observation I don't believe we have problems as significant as what you So. Cal. players seem to be confronted with.Again,I just wish the local media would examine the issue instead of taking management's word and Mr. D's word that they have provided the Arlington wagerer the safest surface for horse and rider.A uniform, consistent surface that plays the same day-in and day-out.EXCEPT of course today,we've had a couple of heavy thunderstorms,so if they haven't tilled the track it will play a full second or better faster and should favor on the pace runners.SO MUCH FOR UNIFORMITY OR CONSISTENCY!

[gm10]

gm10 you continue to repeat things that have already been adressed in this thread. Please refer to posts #371,#372,#373, and #381! You are beginning to seem to have some obsession with addressing me personally even though I have indicated previously that I consider you a nuisance because you keep repeating things that have been addressed. Please knock it off!

This is post #381

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/eques...49e8142001.html


Excerpt:

Through Thursday, Del Mar's on-track attendance had increased 11.2 percent over its daily average last year. On-track handle has declined "only" 5.6 percent, which is good in this economic climate, Ernst said.

The track's overall handle is down 16 percent from 2008, but those numbers include Mondays, which Del Mar dropped in favor of a five-day racing week. If you add in last year's Monday average of approximately $8.5 million, then Del Mar would be down only $7 million total in handle.

This is from post #422 It is from a reporter that put up the misleading information in the San Diego Union.

This email from the San Diego Union today!

Hello Andy,

Thanks for writing to us about the news brief on handle at the Del Mar Racetrack. Your point is well taken. The brief that I wrote originally included the phrase "at the track" - i.e., people "at the track" were wagering an average of $2.4 million per day, which was an increased amount from last year's daily average. As you correctly noted, that was an important phrase because most wagering these days happens at satellite facilities or online. As you said, the overall handle has actually declined significantly for Del Mar when those off-track facilities are included in the statistics. In the published brief, that phrase seems to have been deleted.

I have requested a correction/clarification from the editor.


Thanks again for your interest. I'll be writing a story at the end of the racing season in which I'll address overall handle and on-track handle amounts.

Tanya Mannes, Staff Writer
The San Diego Union-Tribune
5130 Avenida Encinas, Carlsbad CA 92008

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Once again gm10 knock off the B.S. and move on. I don't appreciate your intentional vandalism in this thread. Take the time and make an effort to read the entire thread before you comment out of hand.

As I said I consider you an nuisance at this point and I would appreciate it if you would move on!


Andy, don't be so possessive of a forum thread.
And quit the lying.

"Beyond the on-track averages, Del Mar's total wagering numbers nearly dead-heat with last year's. When all sources are considered for handle purposes -- including satellite betting in the state, as well as out-of-state, out-of-country and ADW wagering -- those daily average digits register a minuscule plus of 0.2% after four weeks."

[andymays]

Andy, don't be so possessive of a forum thread.
And quit the lying.

"Beyond the on-track averages, Del Mar's total wagering numbers nearly dead-heat with last year's. When all sources are considered for handle purposes -- including satellite betting in the state, as well as out-of-state, out-of-country and ADW wagering -- those daily average digits register a minuscule plus of 0.2% after four weeks."


Once again this has been addressed in previous threads.

If you have a problem with the information from the two newspapers I cited then please address them.

[gm10]

Once again this has been addressed in previous threads.

If you have a problem with the information from the two newspapers I cited then please address them.

Uhmmm .... what did you think I was doing.

You may have run out of arguments btw.

The public is picking a decent number of winners.
The surface is fair.
The number of breakdowns is not higher.
Attendance is up, handle is up, overall handle is the same vs. a big national drop.

[andymays]

Uhmmm .... what did you think I was doing.

You may have run out of arguments btw.

The public is picking a decent number of winners.
The surface is fair.
The number of breakdowns is not higher.
Attendance is up, handle is up, overall handle is the same vs. a big national drop.


Once again this has been addressed in previous posts. Please refer to them!

[JeremyJet]

(It is nothing to do with polytrack but everything to do with the skill of the maintenance crew.)

Why would your maintenance crews be more proficient in this area when the primary surface in your country is turf? We've been preparing dirt tracks for over a hundred years in this country. You would think we would have an edge in this area.

We've had experiance with synthetic tracks going back to the Tartan Surafce at Calder. Every time a synthetic surface has been tried, in this country, it has failed. And this is all due to incompetent maintenance procedures? Why would you guys nail it right off the bat and we struggle to get a grasp on it for decades?

Regards,

JeremyJet

[andymays]

From Bruno De Julio www.racingwithbruno.com

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090826.html

Excerpt:

There has been so much talk about the track that it has become the focal point of the meet, again.

We all thought poly would help but it hasn't. We have a pick six carryover coming into this Wednesday card of over $190,000, but the main handicapping focus will not be on the horses but on the track.

What kind of track will we get?

There was talk that they might cut the track back to five inches, but management wasn't making any dire predictions. Anywhere between 4 and 5 inches would be powered harrowed.

Last Friday, the cultivator, cut the track and the Friday twilight program was mostly tilted to the inside. Speed or closers that were inside were right there. Fair as far as running styles, but definitely tilted inside.

I made a table of the Track Variants(courtesy of Today's Racing Digest) or inherent speed of the track for the first four weeks of the meet and you be the judge:

Click the link for the rest!

http://www.dmtc.com/handicapping/bruno/index.php?f=/handicapping/bruno/090826.html

[andymays]

Genaro: The tradition at Saratoga

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2009/08/26/sports/pinksheet/doc4a946abbe9537490609004.txt

Excerpt:

Several years into the synthetic surface experiment, results are mixed.

Little conclusive evidence exists that synthetic surfaces reduce catastrophic breakdowns. In fact, Steve Anderson of the Daily Racing Form reported last week that following a spate of fatal breakdowns at Del Mar, racing officials there are tinkering with the surface.

According to Anderson, since the track opened for training in mid-July, ten horses have been euthanized because of injuries during racing and training (one of the breakdowns took place on the turf), matching the number of fatalities during the 2008 Del Mar meet.

By comparison, during the 2008 Saratoga meeting, there were no fatal breakdowns on the dirt track, and this year, one horse has been euthanized following an injury on the main track during training.

Horsemen are divided on the synthetic issue. At last year’s synthetic panel here, Mark Casse, who is based at Woodbine, at which Polytrack was installed in 2006, expressed his unconditional support for racing over synthetic surfaces. In 2007, Bob Baffert famously pulled his horses from Del Mar and came East for the summer to avoid racing over Polytrack. Kiaran McLaughlin advocates training on synthetics and racing on dirt. Nick Zito no longer races at Keeneland because he believes that his horses can’t be successful over its artificial surface.

While anecdotal opinions abound, little empirical evidence currently exists to demonstrate whether one surface is indeed safer than another. Several studies are currently underway, but until comparable data is collected over a period of years, we are unlikely to know for sure the effect of track surfaces on equine injury.

[robert99]

Why would your maintenance crews be more proficient in this area when the primary surface in your country is turf? We've been preparing dirt tracks for over a hundred years in this country. You would think we would have an edge in this area.

We've had experiance with synthetic tracks going back to the Tartan Surafce at Calder. Every time a synthetic surface has been tried, in this country, it has failed. And this is all due to incompetent maintenance procedures? Why would you guys nail it right off the bat and we struggle to get a grasp on it for decades?

Regards,

JeremyJet

I never mentioned maintenance of UK tracks. :bang:
I never mentioned proficiency of maintaining UK tracks. :bang:

I did say.

"Does Jeff not know that you can put bias anywhere you like on a dirt track or a polytrack by the bias you might apply in harrowing, watering and rolling? -No
(It is nothing to do with polytrack but everything to do with the skill of the maintenance crew.)"

Get a good pair of glasses and quick.

[gm10]

Once again this has been addressed in previous posts. Please refer to them!

Yes it has been, and I proved you wrong on every account.
I have given you factual data time and time again. But you're not too interested in the truth are you? This is about you, not about horses or handicappers.

[andymays]

Yes it has been, and I proved you wrong on every account.
I have given you factual data time and time again. But you're not too interested in the truth are you? This is about you, not about horses or handicappers.


Once again this has been addressed in previous posts. Please refer to them!


Please knock off the stalking stuff! Thanks

[gm10]

Why would your maintenance crews be more proficient in this area when the primary surface in your country is turf? We've been preparing dirt tracks for over a hundred years in this country. You would think we would have an edge in this area.

We've had experiance with synthetic tracks going back to the Tartan Surafce at Calder. Every time a synthetic surface has been tried, in this country, it has failed. And this is all due to incompetent maintenance procedures? Why would you guys nail it right off the bat and we struggle to get a grasp on it for decades?

Regards,

JeremyJet

Yes, theoretically, you are right. But I think that modern synthetic tracks are quite different to their ancestors. Compare it to processed cheese. Surely that has only gotten better over the years. It'll never be natural cheese, but at least it's consistent, safe and fit for mass production. Similarly, no human surface will ever be natural to a horse, but ... you get it :)

[JeremyJet]

I never mentioned maintenance of UK tracks. :bang:
I never mentioned proficiency of maintaining UK tracks. :bang:

I did say.

"Does Jeff not know that you can put bias anywhere you like on a dirt track or a polytrack by the bias you might apply in harrowing, watering and rolling? -No
(It is nothing to do with polytrack but everything to do with the skill of the maintenance crew.)"

Get a good pair of glasses and quick.

Right. I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[JeremyJet]

From day 1 I thought the decision to go synthetic in California was insane. I couldn't understand why a place like California, with some of the best weather in the country, would find a need to go to an all-weather surface.

I'm also wondering why a place like Dubai, where I assume it doesn't rain all that often, and it was like a 107 there the other day, would look to go all-weather. Was there a problem with breakdowns there that I'm not aware of?

I don't know. I just don't get it.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[gm10]

From day 1 I thought the decision to go synthetic in California was insane. I couldn't understand why a place like California, with some of the best weather in the country, would find a need to go to an all-weather surface.

I'm also wondering why a place like Dubai, where I assume it doesn't rain all that often, and it was like a 107 there the other day, would look to go all-weather. Was there a problem with breakdowns there that I'm not aware of?

I don't know. I just don't get it.

Regards,

JeremyJet

Good point regarding Dubai. Perhaps it is useful to make people aware of the reasons why they are installing a synthetic surface.

1/ Safety. Although Del Mar in particular is not improving much on its traditionally high number number of casualties, many other tracks such as Turfway and Woodbine have significantly reduced the number of breakdowns following the installation of a synthetic surface.
2/ Weather. The Dubai weather is not that straightforward. For example, there was no racing for 5 days on the dirt during the 1997 World Cup after a torrential storm.
3/ Make the World Cup a true World Cup. Many European, Australian and South African trainers were simply refusing to run their best horses on the dirt, because, on a global scale, it is rather a niche surface, with a bad reputation in terms of safety, consistency (wrt the weather), and turf form. It is hoped that non-American trainers will start sending their top horses to the World Cup once the new race course is finished.

[JeremyJet]

3/ Make the World Cup a true World Cup. Many European, Australian and South African trainers were simply refusing to run their best horses on the dirt, because, on a global scale, it is rather a niche surface, with a bad reputation in terms of safety, consistency (wrt the weather), and turf form. It is hoped that non-American trainers will start sending their top horses to the World Cup once the new race course is finished.

How many countries around the world offer their best races on synthetic surfaces? I don't think that happens anywhere but the United States.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[Scanman]

From day 1 I thought the decision to go synthetic in California was insane. I couldn't understand why a place like California, with some of the best weather in the country, would find a need to go to an all-weather surface.

I'm also wondering why a place like Dubai, where I assume it doesn't rain all that often, and it was like a 107 there the other day, would look to go all-weather. Was there a problem with breakdowns there that I'm not aware of?

I don't know. I just don't get it.

Regards,

JeremyJetThey seem to like it in Dubai. Granted the below is taken from Dickinson's Tapeta website (would anyone expect anything different), but the endorsements are there:

"It's a great track and the horses love it. It has a good cushion and is a very forgiving surface."- Saeed Bin Suroor, Trainer Godolphin

"The Tapeta™ Surface is absolutely brilliant."- Frankie Dettori, Champion Jockey

"At 120°F the Tapeta™ surface was consistent and stable, and even at that temperature there was no chance of the wax melting."- Steve Grigg, Track Superintendent Godolphin

Other trainer/jockey quotes: http://www.tapetafootings.com/meydan/index.html

BTW, I'm not a shill for synthetic surfaces, but the reality is that they're not going away. They're in 11 countries, to include:

USA
Canada
UK
Ireland
France
Australia
UAE
Germany
Italy
Singapore
Turkey

Just like dirt surfaces, some are better than others and some are "maintained" better than others.

For me, I would prefer that all racing would take place on grass, but we have a tradition of dirt racing in the USA, so okay. Tracks like Saratoga and Tampa have excellect dirt surfaces, great. The most important thing for me is that whatever surface a track puts down, it needs to be safe.

That being said, the evolution of racing and the developement and implementation of the "third" surface will continue and expand. I can only hope that it will improve and make racing a littler safer each day.

[ddog]

Genaro: The tradition at Saratoga

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2009/08/26/sports/pinksheet/doc4a946abbe9537490609004.txt

Excerpt:

Several years into the synthetic surface experiment, results are mixed.

Little conclusive evidence exists that synthetic surfaces reduce catastrophic breakdowns. In fact, Steve Anderson of the Daily Racing Form reported last week that following a spate of fatal breakdowns at Del Mar, racing officials there are tinkering with the surface.

According to Anderson, since the track opened for training in mid-July, ten horses have been euthanized because of injuries during racing and training (one of the breakdowns took place on the turf), matching the number of fatalities during the 2008 Del Mar meet.

By comparison, during the 2008 Saratoga meeting, there were no fatal breakdowns on the dirt track, and this year, one horse has been euthanized following an injury on the main track during training.

Horsemen are divided on the synthetic issue. At last year’s synthetic panel here, Mark Casse, who is based at Woodbine, at which Polytrack was installed in 2006, expressed his unconditional support for racing over synthetic surfaces. In 2007, Bob Baffert famously pulled his horses from Del Mar and came East for the summer to avoid racing over Polytrack. Kiaran McLaughlin advocates training on synthetics and racing on dirt. Nick Zito no longer races at Keeneland because he believes that his horses can’t be successful over its artificial surface.

While anecdotal opinions abound, little empirical evidence currently exists to demonstrate whether one surface is indeed safer than another. Several studies are currently underway, but until comparable data is collected over a period of years, we are unlikely to know for sure the effect of track surfaces on equine injury.


I do not think you can compare delmar and saratoga anymore.
The "quality" :D of horses racing at Delmar , to me , looks not much different than EvD most days.

Just an endless series of old tired lame broken down maiden races, no wonder some don't make it off the track after the race.

[JeremyJet]

The problem, Scanman, as I see it, is: are the synthetic tracks in the United States happy to be on an island by themselves. There is a division in this country. Some of the best barns in the country don't want anything to do with synthetic tracks. I don't see how it can be a good thing for racing, in the United States, when the track surface has the potential to drive away good horses. Prime example is this years leading contender for Horse of the Year.

And I don't see any other tracks in the United States making the switch to synthetics anytime soon. You might as well have another championship event, like the Breeders Cup, in New York every year because New York is never going to make the move to synthetics.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[JeremyJet]

[QUOTE=Scanman]BTW, I'm not a shill for synthetic surfaces, but the reality is that they're not going away.

I would not bet on that. I think they will go away in the United States. California will be the first to revert back to dirt, IMHO.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[Scanman]

[QUOTE=Scanman]BTW, I'm not a shill for synthetic surfaces, but the reality is that they're not going away.

I would not bet on that. I think they will go away in the United States. California will be the first to revert back to dirt, IMHO.

Regards,

JeremyJet
It just like everything that is new, change is difficult to accept and adjust to. I bet racing enthusiasts back in the 1600's or 1700's talked about the same things when the first races on dirt started to take place. Here we are 2, 3 hundred years later and we're still running on dirt, and in some places, very successfully.

The problem isn't the synthetics, it's the ratbag racing execs that allowed their surfaces to deterioriate to the point they became unsafe. It made the pitch for synthetics too easy of an alternative.

Respectfully, I don't think any track that has it now will go back, but if you are right, I sure hope they take the time and effort to put in proper, safe dirt surface.

FWIW, as an owner, I have only raced on grass. I've trained on synthetic. Seems to have worked out well so far. I'm sure there will be a time that I have to run on dirt, but I'm not really looking forward to it and will have my fingers crossed from start to finish.

[Scanman]

The problem, Scanman, as I see it, is: are the synthetic tracks in the United States happy to be on an island by themselves. There is a division in this country. Some of the best barns in the country don't want anything to do with synthetic tracks. I don't see how it can be a good thing for racing, in the United States, when the track surface has the potential to drive away good horses. Prime example is this years leading contender for Horse of the Year.

And I don't see any other tracks in the United States making the switch to synthetics anytime soon. You might as well have another championship event, like the Breeders Cup, in New York every year because New York is never going to make the move to synthetics.

Regards,

JeremyJetI agree. We are becoming a nation of specialists - dirt, turf and synthetic. Your points are valid and wish we had never gotten to this point, but the fact is - we're here. Some owners, trainers, riders and punters actually like the plastic - all for different reasons.

It's unfortunate that Rachel Alexander won't run on Pro-Ride. If the connections don't think it will suit her or they think it's unsafe, then fine. But if Mr. Jackson is just trying to make a statement, then I think he's being foolish.

As for other US tracks switching to synthetics, I think it's a kind of "wait and see" proposition. Also, the cost is something tracks have to consider.

As for NYRA, maybe. I could see Aqueduct getting it, but doubt Belmont or Saratoga will ever see it.

[Bobzilla]

[QUOTE=Scanman]BTW, I'm not a shill for synthetic surfaces, but the reality is that they're not going away.

I would not bet on that. I think they will go away in the United States. California will be the first to revert back to dirt, IMHO.

Regards,

JeremyJet


Jeremy, I share your concerns, not out of a hatred for the third surface but rather from a desire to see our most important races continue to be conducted on dirt. I also enjoy the clear distinction between dirt racing and grass racing, a distinction that seems less apparent, to some degree , between grass and synthetic.

In the near term I don't think we'll be seeing any more synthetic installs. But I also doubt we'll be seeing any synthetic surfaces replaced by dirt anytime soon. I think what we have now is what we'll have for the next five to ten years. I do think there will be a gradual shift towards synthetics in the long run, unfortunately.

It seems American racing at this time is caught between a rock and a hard place. Tracks are having a hard time learning how to best maintain these new surfaces; many players don't like them and are becoming impatient; and the debate over safety concerns could probably go on for decades without either side giving an inch. And then there is the interests of the breeding market.

I could be wrong about this but this is my impression. It's my belief that in the long run the breeders will have the most influence on decisions about surfaces. If you're the breeding industry you want to sell to the buyers with the deepest pockets and much of that money is coming from beyond American shores where racing is run over surfaces other than dirt. Owners of American racehorses and those they can get to share in the risks after a few black type wins will want some assurances that their breeding prospects can produce horses that the buying side of the market will want worldwide. I suspect that as time rolls on the market will favor the offspring of those with proven ability on grass and synthetic only and not dirt. If that's true then I would have to think that this would spell the end of North American dirt racing as we've known it and if anyone wants to bet dirt then they'll have to hope their ADW carries racing from Argentina, Chile and Uraguay. Of course in time they'll probably go synthetic, too. Unfortunately, with the forces of the breeding market at play, I don't know what in the long run can save North American dirt racing. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, let's hope so.

[illinoisbred]

[QUOTE=JeremyJet]


Jeremy, I share your concerns, not out of a hatred for the third surface but rather from a desire to see our most important races continue to be conducted on dirt. I also enjoy the clear distinction between dirt racing and grass racing, a distinction that seems less apparent, to some degree , between grass and synthetic.

In the near term I don't think we'll be seeing any more synthetic installs. But I also doubt we'll be seeing any synthetic surfaces replaced by dirt anytime soon. I think what we have now is what we'll have for the next five to ten years. I do think there will be a gradual shift towards synthetics in the long run, unfortunately.

It seems American racing at this time is caught between a rock and a hard place. Tracks are having a hard time learning how to best maintain these new surfaces; many players don't like them and are becoming impatient; and the debate over safety concerns could probably go on for decades without either side giving an inch. And then there is the interests of the breeding market.

I could be wrong about this but this is my impression. It's my belief that in the long run the breeders will have the most influence on decisions about surfaces. If you're the breeding industry you want to sell to the buyers with the deepest pockets and much of that money is coming from beyond American shores where racing is run over surfaces other than dirt. Owners of American racehorses and those they can get to share in the risks after a few black type wins will want some assurances that their breeding prospects can produce horses that the buying side of the market will want worldwide. I suspect that as time rolls on the market will favor the offspring of those with proven ability on grass and synthetic only and not dirt. If that's true then I would have to think that this would spell the end of North American dirt racing as we've known it and if anyone wants to bet dirt then they'll have to hope their ADW carries racing from Argentina, Chile and Uraguay. Of course in time they'll probably go synthetic, too. Unfortunately, with the forces of the breeding market at play, I don't know what in the long run can save North American dirt racing. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, let's hope so.
I think you impressions are right on the mark.Gradually.we'll probably see more synthetic tracks.

[andymays]

[QUOTE=Bobzilla]
I think you impressions are right on the mark.Gradually.we'll probably see more synthetic tracks.

God Forbid!

I can probably live with them anywhere but in Southern California!

[JeremyJet]

Two points.

1. The most important race in America is the Kentucky Derby. It's contested on dirt and breeders will continue to breed in that direction. Edge to dirt tracks.

2. California is having trouble attracting some of the best American dirt horses even though the Breeders Cup will be on a synthetic track. What happens when the Breeders Cup is held at a track with a traditional dirt surface? Who's going to want to prep on a synthetic surface under that scenerio? Edge to dirt tracks.

I mean, who in their right mind would want to isolate themselves like that. Synthetic tracks in the United States are the minority, not the majority.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[Robert Fischer]

Two points.

1. The most important race in America is the Kentucky Derby. It's contested on dirt and breeders will continue to breed in that direction. Edge to dirt tracks.

2. California is having trouble attracting some of the best American dirt horses even though the Breeders Cup will be on a synthetic track. What happens when the Breeders Cup is held at a track with a traditional dirt surface? Who's going to want to prep on a synthetic surface under that scenerio? Edge to dirt tracks.


good points :ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

I'm also wondering why a place like Dubai, where I assume it doesn't rain all that often, and it was like a 107 there the other day, would look to go all-weather. Was there a problem with breakdowns there that I'm not aware of?
Regards,

JeremyJet

My guess would be not about breakdowns at all but in the potential to hold the kind of matchups we saw in the 2008 Classic.
Think about it for a second from the sheikh's perspective- then stop imagining the wild lingerie brothel party and get back to this discussion! dammit Jet :cool: ok what were we... yea the ruler of Dubai has the goal of holding the world's greatest horserace. So with a synthetic he now has the possibility of enticing 3-5 maybe even more true Grade I runners in a historically great race. Not Grade I chumps in the sense that they won one weak grade I months ago , real worldclass horses who are ranked in the top 10 of all racehorses.
After seeing the 2008 Classic, he pretty much had to go synthetic. - he wanted to recreate that , maybe even top it.

[Robert Fischer]

As for NYRA, maybe. I could see Aqueduct getting it, but doubt Belmont or Saratoga will ever see it.

it would really stink if Belmont or Saratoga got synthetic.

Aqueduct is a weird one. Their inner meet is often plagued by speed bias and at times they can have mostly ugly racing. it would be interesting to think about just the inner as synthetic for the inner meet and training if wanted. May make them the first with "all 3".

[gm10]

How many countries around the world offer their best races on synthetic surfaces? I don't think that happens anywhere but the United States.

Regards,

JeremyJet

It's not about that. Many horses are trained on synthetic surfaces, and international trainers feel that there is a more level playing field when racing their turf horses on the synthetics compared to racing on the dirt.

[gm10]

Two points.

1. The most important race in America is the Kentucky Derby. It's contested on dirt and breeders will continue to breed in that direction. Edge to dirt tracks.

Yes. But if the synthetic trend keeps growing, CD is at risk of making itself irrelevant. Not now, but maybe in 10-20 years.

2. California is having trouble attracting some of the best American dirt horses even though the Breeders Cup will be on a synthetic track. What happens when the Breeders Cup is held at a track with a traditional dirt surface? Who's going to want to prep on a synthetic surface under that scenerio? Edge to dirt tracks.

I don't think they are having trouble at all, except for the high-profile case of RA. Which is weird btw, she already won at Keeneland. Besides, enjoy the BC while you can, you're not going to see the European stars again for a while after this year. Sniff at that if you want, but it's the international dimension that makes the BC special.

Finally, I think that prepping on the synthetics for dirt racing is ideal. Many top trainers have said the same, and if you look at this year's Kentucky Derby result, you can only say that a lot of horses had run on synthetics.

I mean, who in their right mind would want to isolate themselves like that. Synthetic tracks in the United States are the minority, not the majority.

Regards,

JeremyJet

I'm not sure that's really true.
Arlington, Keeneland, Santa Anita, Del Mar, Hollywood are all grade 1 tracks. On the dirt, you've got Belmont, Saratoga, Gulfstream and Churchill.

I've had a look at this a few weeks ago, there's as many graded stakes on the dirt as there are on the poly these days.

[proximity]

Arlington, Keeneland, Santa Anita, Del Mar, Hollywood are all grade 1 tracks. On the dirt, you've got Belmont, Saratoga, Gulfstream and Churchill.
.

if you're going to list ap as a "grade 1" track, then you forgot fg, op, mth, crc...

[JeremyJet]

Yes. But if the synthetic trend keeps growing, CD is at risk of making itself irrelevant. Not now, but maybe in 10-20 years..

10-20 Years? Ok.

What synthetic trend? There's no trend in the United States. California was forced down that road and there's already talk of getting out of that stupid mandate.

Arlington, Keeneland, Santa Anita, Del Mar, Hollywood are all grade 1 tracks. On the dirt, you've got Belmont, Saratoga, Gulfstream and Churchill.

I've had a look at this a few weeks ago, there's as many graded stakes on the dirt as there are on the poly these days.

Arlington no longer has any G1 races on the main track and Hollywood Park is going to close in the near future.

You've failed to include such dirt tracks as:

Aqu
Crc
FG
OP
MTH

Just to name a few. There are way more graded opportunities on the dirt.

The Blood-Horse used to publish a graded stakes supplement in their magazine sorted by track, age, grade, etc ... Does anyone know if they still publish that data.

And the Del Mar G1's are fluffed up by a couple of 2yo races and sprints. Also, this years rendition of the Clement Hirsch would be lucky to get G3 status.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[gm10]

10-20 Years? Ok.

What synthetic trend? There's no trend in the United States. California was forced down that road and there's already talk of getting out of that stupid mandate.



Arlington no longer has any G1 races on the main track and Hollywood Park is going to close in the near future.

You've failed to include such dirt tracks as:

Aqu
Crc
FG
OP
MTH

Just to name a few. There are way more graded opportunities on the dirt.

The Blood-Horse used to publish a graded stakes supplement in their magazine sorted by track, age, grade, etc ... Does anyone know if they still publish that data.

And the Del Mar G1's are fluffed up by a couple of 2yo races and sprints. Also, this years rendition of the Clement Hirsch would be lucky to get G3 status.

Regards,

JeremyJet

OK I had a look, seems you are right (2008 data).

Grade SURFACE_TYPE COUNT(*)
Grade 1 D 58
Grade 1 P 34
Grade 1 T 41
Grade 2 D 75
Grade 2 P 34
Grade 2 T 59
Grade 3 D 91
Grade 3 P 54
Grade 3 T 94

[Bobzilla]

Yes. But if the synthetic trend keeps growing, CD is at risk of making itself irrelevant. Not now, but maybe in 10-20 years.



I don't think they are having trouble at all, except for the high-profile case of RA. Which is weird btw, she already won at Keeneland. Besides, enjoy the BC while you can, you're not going to see the European stars again for a while after this year. Sniff at that if you want, but it's the international dimension that makes the BC special.




gm10, do we know for certain that there will be a significant drop in European participation in the Breeders' Cup after this year? Dirt surfaces haven't precluded a European presence in the past and by and large I would say they've accounted for themselves quite nicely. Sheikh Albadhou in the 91 Sprint, Arcangues in the 93 Classic, Swain may very well have defeated a very deep field in 98 if his rider hadn't temporarily gone insane. Iron horse Giants Causeway got into an extended engagement with Tiznow as did Sahkee the following year. I agree that the international dimension is part of what makes the BC a special event. Maybe there is a different attitude in the wake of the 2007 Classic but given some past successes and the size of the purses I would be surprised if European participation did not continue after this year.

[gm10]

gm10, do we know for certain that there will be a significant drop in European participation in the Breeders' Cup after this year? Dirt surfaces haven't precluded a European presence in the past and by and large I would say they've accounted for themselves quite nicely. Sheikh Albadhou in the 91 Sprint, Arcangues in the 93 Classic, Swain may very well have defeated a very deep field in 98 if his rider hadn't temporarily gone insane. Iron horse Giants Causeway got into an extended engagement with Tiznow as did Sahkee the following year. I agree that the international dimension is part of what makes the BC a special event. Maybe there is a different attitude in the wake of the 2007 Classic but given some past successes and the size of the purses I would be surprised if European participation did not continue after this year.

As you point out, they hadn't won the Classic since 1993 when that freakish longshot won under JB.
I'm sure Godolpin and Ballydoyle will keep trying, but I wouldn't expect the likes of John Gosden to send a lot of their stars to the Classic on dirt.
The key here is LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Dirt is a specialty surface, non-American trainers feel that they are at a serious disadvantage on the dirt.

You had Henry, Ravens and Duke Of Marmelade in the Classic last year. These were all star horses in Europe. You would never have seen all of them at Belmont or Churchill.

[Valuist]

As you point out, they hadn't won the Classic since 1993 when that freakish longshot won under JB.
I'm sure Godolpin and Ballydoyle will keep trying, but I wouldn't expect the likes of John Gosden to send a lot of their stars to the Classic on dirt.
The key here is LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Dirt is a specialty surface, non-American trainers feel that they are at a serious disadvantage on the dirt.

You had Henry, Ravens and Duke Of Marmelade in the Classic last year. These were all star horses in Europe. You would never have seen all of them at Belmont or Churchill.

Who needs them? I'd rather see the top horses running on real dirt than some race run on plastic. THe BC has sold out so badly its disgusting.

[cj]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the turmoil at AP today. Apparently, the jocks didn't want to ride over concern for injuries they are sustaining when the horses go down. Eventually, they rode, but two took off all mounts.

[andymays]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the turmoil at AP today. Apparently, the jocks didn't want to ride over concern for injuries they are sustaining when the horses go down. Eventually, they rode, but two took off all mounts.


There's a thread about the Jock that got hurt!

[cj]

There's a thread about the Jock that got hurt!

Right, but today racing was delayed in the aftermath. I don't know all the details, but it has to do with safety concerns expressed by the riders.

I see now it is mentioned in that thread, sorry.

[andymays]

Right, but today racing was delayed in the aftermath. I don't know all the details, but it has to do with safety concerns expressed by the riders.


I posted an article and the excerpt but I didn't want to duplicate it. You are right the Jockeys had a long meeting. I think there will be more to come on the surface issue.

[andymays]

Thoroughbreds suffer a higher number of fatal hind rear injuries on synthetic surfaces compared to dirt -- latimes.com

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-horse-injuries28-2009aug28,0,5146406.column

Excerpt:

A UC Davis study of horse deaths at California tracks looks into the difference in injuries on dirt and synthetic surfaces.

By Eric Sondheimer

A UC Davis study of horse deaths at California tracks has documented for the first time that thoroughbreds suffer a higher number of fatal hind rear injuries on race tracks with synthetic surfaces compared to dirt.

In statistics compiled from 2008, nine thoroughbred deaths resulted from left rear injuries and 10 from right rear injuries on synthetic tracks. There was only one death on dirt from a hind rear injury, according to the study.

But the study was inconclusive about whether more fatal front leg injuries occurred on dirt or synthetic surfaces.

[andymays]

And They're Off: August 26, 2009 | Videos

They discuss synthetic surfaces about half way through! The rest of the video is good as well!

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/watch/B143DE23-32BE-4A41-A1CF-D39AF8DDBF5E

Excerpt:

Lenny and Steve are back! Topics include Rachel Alexandra and Jess Jackson, the continued breakdowns at Del Mar, plus a look at the second season of Animal Planet's hit reality program, JOCKEYS.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Here's my selected excerpt, and my "warning signs" I began and was distributed 2 years ago (to apply to any surface):
"Craig Fravel, executive vice president for Del Mar Thoroughbred Club, said that many of the horses that died had been injured in prior race incidents.

(Dr. Arthur CHRB Vet) Arthur also told the CHRB board that UC-Davis is working on developing consistent test data with which to measure the various synthetic track surfaces.

He said that such measurements are complicated by surface temperatures on synthetic tracks that are much higher than on traditional dirt surfaces.

But Arthur said that in 90% of racetrack fatalities, the horse had a pre-existing injury that led to the catstrophic breakdown.

"To think that this is only a racetrack problem, and that we will solve the problem by fixing the racetracks is terribly naive," Arthur said"
(I am going to be looking for the data from this report as to what kind of specific pre-existing injuries are involved and what about the injuries shows there was pre-existance)

________________

DANGER SIGNS A RACEHORSE MAY HAVE A LEG/FOOT PROBLEM:

D eclining speed

N egative PP comments

F ront wraps

01) More than 3 months' layoff between races.

02) 2 or more gaps in racing frequency of more than 6 weeks.

03) 3 or more consecutive races with gaps of 2 weeks or less.

04) 2 or more consecutive unusually slow workouts.

05) Lugging, drifting, swerving more than once within 1 or 2 races, especially on turns.

06) Awkwardness while trying to switch leads.

07) Excessive bobbing while running, (like a merry-go-round pony).

08) Any problems leaving the gate in a race.

09) 5 or older stretching out or shipping to a slower pars track (wearing down).

10) Losing normal early speed.

11) Lung infection (possible parallel sign of overwork).

12) New front wraps.

13) 1 month of racing while showing no works.

14) Alteration of training or racing regimen.

15) more than 19 1/2 furlongs of workouts and/or races within 30 days.

[andymays]

Here's my selected excerpt, and my "warning signs" I began and was distributed 2 years ago (to apply to any surface):
"Craig Fravel, executive vice president for Del Mar Thoroughbred Club, said that many of the horses that died had been injured in prior race incidents.

(Dr. Arthur CHRB Vet) Arthur also told the CHRB board that UC-Davis is working on developing consistent test data with which to measure the various synthetic track surfaces.

He said that such measurements are complicated by surface temperatures on synthetic tracks that are much higher than on traditional dirt surfaces.

But Arthur said that in 90% of racetrack fatalities, the horse had a pre-existing injury that led to the catstrophic breakdown.

"To think that this is only a racetrack problem, and that we will solve the problem by fixing the racetracks is terribly naive," Arthur said"
(I am going to be looking for the data from this report as to what kind of specific pre-existing injuries are involved and what about the injuries shows there was pre-existance)

________________

DANGER SIGNS A RACEHORSE MAY HAVE A LEG/FOOT PROBLEM:

D eclining speed

N egative PP comments

F ront wraps

01) More than 3 months' layoff between races.

02) 2 or more gaps in racing frequency of more than 6 weeks.

03) 3 or more consecutive races with gaps of 2 weeks or less.

04) 2 or more consecutive unusually slow workouts.

05) Lugging, drifting, swerving more than once within 1 or 2 races, especially on turns.

06) Awkwardness while trying to switch leads.

07) Excessive bobbing while running, (like a merry-go-round pony).

08) Any problems leaving the gate in a race.

09) 5 or older stretching out or shipping to a slower pars track (wearing down).

10) Losing normal early speed.

11) Lung infection (possible parallel sign of overwork).

12) New front wraps.

13) 1 month of racing while showing no works.

14) Alteration of training or racing regimen.

15) more than 19 1/2 furlongs of workouts and/or races within 30 days.


In my opinion it is undeniable that there will be injuries and breakdowns on any surface. The thing is that nobody ever claimed that dirt surfaces were the "be all to end all" like they did with synthetic surfaces.

The only claim about synthetic surfaces that I would say was accurate was that they produce closer finishes. The bunched up fields in the stretch may be more dangerous to Horse and Jockey though. The jury is still out on that.

As far a your selected excerpt comment when a link is posted to the article I assume everyone reads the entire article. The Board rules and the copyright rules say you can't paste the entire article right?

The title of the article is..

Thoroughbreds suffer a higher number of fatal hind rear injuries on synthetic surfaces compared to dirt -- latimes.com


I don't think the excerpt is misleading in any way if that's what your'e implying.



The Bloodhorse has a similar article and here it is with title..

Back Leg Injuries Tied to Synthetic Tracks | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52317/back-leg-injuries-tied-to-synthetic-tracks

This is the first paragraph excerpt:

A post-mortem report presented to the California Horse Racing Board Aug. 27 at Del Mar tends to support trainers who complain that synthetic tracks lead to more hind leg injuries.

This is another excerpt that may be more to your liking:

Arthur also told the board that UC-Davis is working on developing consistent test data with which to measure the various synthetic track surfaces.

He said that such measurements are complicated by surface temperatures on synthetic tracks that are much higher than on traditional dirt surfaces.

But Arthur said that in 90% of racetrack fatalities, the horse had a pre-existing injury that led to the catstrophic breakdown.

"To think that this is only a racetrack problem, and that we will solve the problem by fixing the racetracks is terribly naive," Arthur said.

[gm10]

Who needs them? I'd rather see the top horses running on real dirt than some race run on plastic. THe BC has sold out so badly its disgusting.

Good luck with a breeders cup without international stars. I don't think that will generate a lot of interest. You'd end up with a sport that is a one trick pony (the derby).

[Quagmire]

Good luck with a breeders cup without international stars. I don't think that will generate a lot of interest. You'd end up with a sport that is a one trick pony (the derby).

The European entrants might generate some interest in Europe but not as much in the US. The Europeans will still show up for the turf races.

[andymays]

The European entrants might generate some interest in Europe but not as much in the US. The Europeans will still show up for the turf races.


I heard Glen Beck say the exact same thing! Imagine that! :lol: (inside joke)

[Quagmire]

I heard Glen Beck say the exact same thing! Imagine that! :lol: (inside joke)
:ThmbUp:

[Bobzilla]

As you point out, they hadn't won the Classic since 1993 when that freakish longshot won under JB.
I'm sure Godolpin and Ballydoyle will keep trying, but I wouldn't expect the likes of John Gosden to send a lot of their stars to the Classic on dirt.
The key here is LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Dirt is a specialty surface, non-American trainers feel that they are at a serious disadvantage on the dirt.

You had Henry, Ravens and Duke Of Marmelade in the Classic last year. These were all star horses in Europe. You would never have seen all of them at Belmont or Churchill.


gm10,

Granted, with the BC main track races contested over a Pro-Ride surface it would be reasonable to expect a higher number of Europeans participating. They would be crazy not to take advantage of this carte blanche opportunity. And I can also understand where this would excite many, on both sides of the Atlantic, with the prospect of seeing more of the world's top level horses meeting one another in the same event. However, I do predict that much of that excitement here in the U.S. might wane in time as it becomes more universally understood that any disadvantages the Euros feel they have when competing against our top runners on dirt pales in comparison to the disadvantages that many, probably not all but many, of our top dirt performers have when competing against the world's best turf stars over the Pro-Ride as we saw it last year. Respectfully, I disagree with the assertion that the Pro-Ride is a "level playing field" and I don't feel that this notion is as axiomatic as some may feel.

After last year's Breeders' Cup Andy Beyer of the Washington Post wrote a piece that I thought was pretty good. I especially liked the last paragraph. I wouldn't expect you to agree with some parts but in case you're interested I'll leave the link for your perusal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/26/AR2008102601938.html

[andymays]

gm10,

Granted, with the BC main track races contested over a Pro-Ride surface it would be reasonable to expect a higher number of Europeans participating. They would be crazy not to take advantage of this carte blanche opportunity. And I can also understand where this would excite many, on both sides of the Atlantic, with the prospect of seeing more of the world's top level horses meeting one another in the same event. However, I do predict that much of that excitement here in the U.S. might wane in time as it becomes more universally understood that any disadvantages the Euros feel they have when competing against our top runners on dirt pales in comparison to the disadvantages that many, probably not all but many, of our top dirt performers have when competing against the world's best turf stars over the Pro-Ride as we saw it last year. Respectfully, I disagree with the assertion that the Pro-Ride is a "level playing field" and I don't feel that this notion is as axiomatic as some may feel.

After last year's Breeders' Cup Andy Beyer of the Washington Post wrote a piece that I thought was pretty good. I especially liked the last paragraph. I wouldn't expect you to agree with some parts but in case you're interested I'll leave the link for your perusal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/26/AR2008102601938.html


Good Article! :ThmbUp:

[rwwupl]

And They're Off: August 26, 2009 | Videos

They discuss synthetic surfaces about half way through! The rest of the video is good as well!

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/watch/B143DE23-32BE-4A41-A1CF-D39AF8DDBF5E

Excerpt:

Lenny and Steve are back! Topics include Rachel Alexandra and Jess Jackson, the continued breakdowns at Del Mar, plus a look at the second season of Animal Planet's hit reality program, JOCKEYS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some progress according to this article. I think it is good except I do not agree that synthetics are consistent. Dr. Arthur has an opinion but he is wrong. Synthetics vary inconsistent far more than a dirt track. Dr. Arthur is not a bettor and does not get this problem. rwwupl

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52317/back-leg-injuries-tied-to-synthetic-tracks


Back Leg Injuries Tied to Synthetic Tracks
By Jack Shinar
Updated: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:20 PM
Posted: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:02 PM
Email
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RSS ShareThis Email A FriendClose Window A post-mortem report presented to the California Horse Racing Board Aug. 27 at Del Mar tends to support trainers who complain that synthetic tracks lead to more hind leg injuries.

In 2008, 19 Thoroughbreds from a total of 111 that died on synthetic tracks in the state succumbed to catastrophic hind-end leg injuries, according to a preliminary CHRB/University of California-Davis report.

That compared to just one death as the result of a hind-leg injury among 65 Thoroughbreds that succumbed during racing or training on dirt tracks during the same period, according to the report. Dr. Hailu Kinde, who has been with the post-mortem program at UC-Davis since 1991, presented the figures to the board.

"This actually confirms that there are additional hind-end injuries on synthetic surfaces, which is what trainers have been telling us," said Dr. Rick Arthur, the CHRB's equine medical director.

Sesamoid fractures resulted in 81 deaths and were the most common of fatal skeletal injuries, Kinde said.

There were a total of 351 horse deaths for all breeds within racing enclosures in the state during 2008: 163 fatalities occurred during racing, 93 while training and 95 of non-exercise related causes such as gastro-intestinal or respiratory problems, Kinde told the board. Equine deaths by breed broke down as follows: Thoroughbreds, 258; Quarter Horses, 86; Standardbreds, 4; Arabians, 3.

Catastrophic breakdowns in front legs in Thoroughbreds, which numbered 135, according to the report, remained much more prominent than hind leg breakdowns.

The 2008 totals were punctuated by an increase in Quarter Horse deaths on Los Alamitos' dirt track, which doubled over the preceding year.

Horse deaths for all breeds have shown an increase at racetracks in the state since 2004, but Arthur noted that only in the past couple of years has the data collection been very reliable. He said the program's full annual written report should be available within a couple of weeks.

"I'm very pleased with the better data we are getting," Arthur said. Eventually, he hopes to be able to produce quarterly reports on equine deaths "so we can figure out what's going on and how to respond."

Craig Fravel, executive vice president for Del Mar Thoroughbred Club, said that many of the horses that died had been injured in prior race incidents.

Arthur also told the board that UC-Davis is working on developing consistent test data with which to measure the various synthetic track surfaces.

He said that such measurements are complicated by surface temperatures on synthetic tracks that are much higher than on traditional dirt surfaces.

But Arthur said that in 90% of racetrack fatalities, the horse had a pre-existing injury that led to the catstrophic breakdown.

"To think that this is only a racetrack problem, and that we will solve the problem by fixing the racetracks is terribly naive," Arthur said.

Fravel said that Del Mar's daily maintenance schedule is usually dictated by the amount of water that is necessary to keep moisture in the track. He disputed the complaint that synthetic tracks are inconsistent and pointed to track variants that support his view.

In other action, the board sent out five amendments to CHRB medication rules for a 45-day public comment period. The list was recommended by Arthur following a meeting of the CHRB's medication committee last month.

Among the proposed changes, a horse placed on the veterinarian's list for being injured or unsound would be prohibited from working out for a 72-hour period after being placed on the list without permission from the official veterinarian. The official vet may also require any horse on the list to undergo a physical examination to resume training.

Another amendment would prohibit any person other than a board-licensed vet from being in possession of any medication not legally prescribed and labeled at any recognized racing or training facility. A third change would add growth hormones to a list of banned substances designed to alter equine performance.

Two separate proposals would allow the equine medical director to direct blood samples for the purpose of testing for total carbon dioxide (TCO2) concentrations and for other urine, blood or other test samples.

A proposal to reduce the number of "other" horses designated for testing from six to one horse was withdrawn due to the objection of commissioner David Israel, who said "it would be a step in the wrong direction."

The board also approved the temporary waiving of its current rule on whip requirements in order to allow the use of a softer alternative whip statewide that is in use under a "house rule" at Del Mar.