HANA topic on Del Mar Forum

[Cangamble]

http://www.dmtc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=95ab227a8d8cca2f564a17fc89220c56

It is starting to get funny now that it has reached 8 pages.
And thanks to a few of my own jabs of course:D

[miesque]

I finally went and read that thread over at DMTC while I was eating my lunch and by the time I had finished the first page I remembered exactly why its been several years since I have read anything on the DMTC Forum, the IA Ratio is far too high for my liking. I would like to take this opportunity to say that HANA is very fortunate to have a President with an infinitely higher level of patience then I have.


Kudos to Cangamble for the remark "You are totally oblivious. Tracks have been closing. I almost can't read your crapola anymore, I feel like my IQ will lower if I read much more," that much more eloquently states my thoughts then what I would have posted after reading all 8 pages.

[turfnsport]

I would like to take this opportunity to say that HANA is very fortunate to have a President with an infinitely higher level of patience then I have.


same here....lol..

[DeanT]

Since we're horseplayers and want to throw a fit when we get a bad drive/ride, it surprises me that Jeff is quite calm. He is some sort of freak :)

[miesque]

Since we're horseplayers and want to throw a fit when we get a bad drive/ride, it surprises me that Jeff is quite calm. He is some sort of freak :)

Jeff is like the Zen Master of Horseplayers. :D

[Cangamble]

Featured at Bloodhorse:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/thoroughbred-bloggers-alliance/archive/2008/11/14/gamble.aspx

[boomman]

I finally went and read that thread over at DMTC while I was eating my lunch and by the time I had finished the first page I remembered exactly why its been several years since I have read anything on the DMTC Forum, the IA Ratio is far too high for my liking. I would like to take this opportunity to say that HANA is very fortunate to have a President with an infinitely higher level of patience then I have.


Kudos to Cangamble for the remark "You are totally oblivious. Tracks have been closing. I almost can't read your crapola anymore, I feel like my IQ will lower if I read much more," that much more eloquently states my thoughts then what I would have posted after reading all 8 pages.

I can't remember the last time I read so much drivel and that was just in the 1st page!:D They just REALLY don't get it do they? I lived in Southern California for 16 years and apparently gave the horseplayers much more credit for recognizing what this is than they're willing to admit. Kudos to Jeff for demonstrating the patience of Mother Theresa, but that's enough for me, I won't be reading any more DMTC threads:ThmbDown:!

Boomer

[turfnsport]

I won't be reading any more DMTC threads:ThmbDown:!

Boomer

Cmon Boom, at least keep reading until I finally get banned...lol...O/U is 12 hrs.

LIRM is a mindless puke.

[DeanT]

I am glad Turfnsport is on our side :)

[Hajck Hillstrom]

LIRM is a mindless puke.
What are you trying to say? :lol: :lol:

It is our responsibility to try to get LetItRideMike to remove the hood with the full cup blinkers, and therefore improve his perspective.

I once approached the sport much like he did, until I looked down and saw it circling the bowl.

[DeanT]

I split a $144 pick 6 today with someone. That's the first bet into the HOL pools in an ice age for me. Someone post there that a HANA member is giving them cash, maybe they will like us again :)

Hajck, the ol "Why I Left Racing" piece is doing well. We're looking forward to part III.

Edit.... oh, I just looked and I am still alive. That's another first in an ice age for me in a pick 6.

[turfnsport]

What are you trying to say? :lol: :lol:

It is our responsibility to try to get LetItRideMike to remove the hood with the full cup blinkers, and therefore improve his perspective.

I once approached the sport much like he did, until I looked down and saw it circling the bowl.

Hack,

You are not going to be able to change the mind of a dolt like Let It Ride Mike, that is hopeless. All you can do is rebut his mindless dribble he spouts so hopefully anyone reading the forum will understand the issues and facts better.

You guys did a great job of that. Jeff is now right up there with Mother Theresa in my book.

I'm not one for personal attacks (well, except for Jon here...lol) and I could care less if Let It Ride Mike called me a whiner, fat slob, complainer, thief, etc., However, I do take exception when he calls my fellow horseplayers such names....then the gloves are off...lol..

[Indulto]

Featured at Bloodhorse:

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/thoroughbred-bloggers-alliance/archive/2008/11/14/gamble.aspx
From the article:… Many of players that are still left in the game today are products of home environments that included at least a day at the track each week with their parents. And this was made possible because the game used to be possibly beatable in the long term.

… So how did race tracks react to not being the only game in town? They raised takeouts and tried to compete with more and more exotics. Triactors and superfectas with a track takeout of 25% plus are bankroll killers. They pumped in simulcasts, and nowadays an outfit like HPI show 15 tracks a day.

Intertrack/simulcast wagering made sure that only a few people could go home with money in their pockets. The least they could have done is drastically reduce takeouts so players could last a bit longer each day. But the opposite happened, triactors with their high takeouts are now available in every race that has at least 6 horses. Racing has become like blackjack in the fact that you can play 5 really good hands every 20 minutes. Except blackjacks house edge (takeout) is 15 times lower than the takeout at a race track.

And then came slots and lotteries. Slots made sure that mooch money in the pools has disappeared to almost zero. There is hardly a player left who bets without a form. And family day is dead as well. Slots are way more appealing to those who just want to gamble. No thinking is required. Yet, even those who run slots realize that if they increased their takeout to over 10%, slots would be in trouble too. People keep coming back because it mostly takes time to scoop the players gambling money. Someone going to the track knows that $100 may give you 6-9 minutes of real action depending on how much one bets. If you are lucky enough, you might cash, and be able to win another 6-9 minutes of real action.

The way the game is set up today, it is impossible for winners to be created. Nowadays you have good handicappers facing great handicappers, and the great handicapper isn't a winner unless he or she is getting a very good rebate.

… Takeouts need to be in the 10-12% range or forget about it.CG,
I admire your ability to generate such passionate reactions at B-H. Actually, I thought the quoted portion above is among the best of your work that I’ve read. IMO many on-track players in my age group still don’t understand exactly what happened or why they can’t get their grandchildren interested in the game. This should help. Maybe ancient history just doesn’t go over well with the internet crowd.

As far as the DMTC thread is concerned, it was a good move for JP to go there since it looks as if three, maybe four of their regulars are probably sign-ups by now. I had to laugh because LIRM’s indefatigable defense of his position reminded me of yours for evolution. ;)

[Cangamble]

Thanks. As for evolution, just like with my stance on takeout, I have facts on my side.:)

[DeanT]

Those are some interesting comments there. I would swear that most of the reaction is from people who have never bet a horse in their lives. At the very least HANA has people who bet and own horses, so they know both sides. Unfortunately the horse braintrust focuses on taking more revenue from their customers to help their bottom lines. I think we all know that is not going to work. HANA at least offers a growth plan for wagering so that more money can go into the game long term to grow purses. I wish the horse braintrust would concentrate on similar from their end - cut costs of horse ownership (my bills are 200% higher than they were before slots were introduced here as suppliers and so on milk us) - but when we ask them to focus on that all they want to talk about is getting sports betting, handouts, or more money from players.

[DeanT]

In that last post I mean the comments on bloodhorse for Cangamble's piece. I stopped reading the DMTC forum when Turfnsport stopped posting. I will read when he gets back. I am protesting :)

[turfnsport]

In that last post I mean the comments on bloodhorse for Cangamble's piece. I stopped reading the DMTC forum when Turfnsport stopped posting. I will read when he gets back. I am protesting :)

LOL...I'm not banned, just felt it better to hold my tongue in check...I think some of those guys (like LIRM) see us as degenerate gamblers that spend half our day picking up discarded tickets at the track.

I'm sure I am not the only member of HANA that has more than two dozen winners circle photos. Maybe I'll send him a couple. I bet he would be surprised that us whiney degenerate gamblers might be owners too.

(Of course, I had a lot more hair in those photos, he might not believe its me)

I'll take a stab and say I could pick one P.A. poster at random, and that one poster wagers more than the top 20 posters at DMTC combined. So I would not lose any sleep or spend too much time over LIRM and his band of numbnuts.

[miesque]

LOL...I'm not banned, just felt it better to hold my tongue in check...I think some of those guys (like LIRM) see us as degenerate gamblers that spend half our day picking up discarded tickets at the track.

I'm sure I am not the only member of HANA that has more than two dozen winners circle photos. Maybe I'll send him a couple. I bet he would be surprised that us whiney degenerate gamblers might be owners too.

(Of course, I had a lot more hair in those photos, he might not believe its me)

I'll take a stab and say I could pick one P.A. poster at random, and that one poster wagers more than the top 20 posters at DMTC combined. So I would not lose any sleep or spend too much time over LIRM and his band of numbnuts.

:ThmbUp: Agree on all your points (well except for the hair in the winners circle pictures, I have had the same hair style since I left college :) ) Some of those looking down the nose comments were also amusing to me since I travel a pretty fair amount to different tracks throughout the country during the year and I travel pretty well, I am not exactly renting a compact and staying at the Econo Lodge. :lol:

There is a phrase that comes to mind in this whole DMTC conversation and that is "never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and win due to experience." There is an element of truth to that, as well as that phrase that comedian Ron White uses that "You can't fix stupid." :D

[Hajck Hillstrom]

What a bunch of Muppets! It is probably just a handful of dolts, but you are right, it is probably a waste of time to post over there.

I'd be curious as to what percentage of race fan has a negative perception of HANA?

Do Racing administrators have it right? Is the horseplayer, as a group, a moronic lot?

[BUD]

NEWBIE--Ok--How much did some of this tick me off--- Yes OK -I can carry in all the Mainland---Been A Deputy since I was 23--This year it would be 20 active years---Minus the Work related disability--- I Escorted Governors, Senators, and House members in my State-Served honorably....

Yes we are a sad lot....Wow did that pi$$ me off. Damn!

Yes I am a loser I only have my 4 year degree.Unreal!!

Good work folks---Keep fighting the good fight.

[Cangamble]

In that last post I mean the comments on bloodhorse for Cangamble's piece. I stopped reading the DMTC forum when Turfnsport stopped posting. I will read when he gets back. I am protesting :)
They didn't print my rather nasty but factual rebuttal comment to SBVO.

I'm also getting comments on my own blog from a few who are trying to defend marketing horse racing while the takeouts are still high. My point is that without winners that can be advertised (either by word of mouth or by the track itself), marketing to families today is a futile effort.
Woodbine has been trying it for years. You might get people to come once but you can't hook them anymore, because it is not the only game in town anymore as far as entertainment goes. It needs to be marketed for what it is, a game of chance.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

It needs to be marketed for what it is, a game of chance.My question is "Why do racing's marketing directors tiptoe around this fact?"

[miesque]

A friend notified me of a funny spin-off thread at DMTChttp://www.dmtc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33507 :D

[Indulto]

What a bunch of Muppets! It is probably just a handful of dolts, but you are right, it is probably a waste of time to post over there.

I'd be curious as to what percentage of race fan has a negative perception of HANA?

Do Racing administrators have it right? Is the horseplayer, as a group, a moronic lot?HH,
With the exception of rwwupi and traveller. the DMTC posters are behaving the same way some here at PA when somebody suddenly starts posting here trying to sell something. Also, just like in off-topic here, some people just ridicule others at every opportunity because they enjoy it.

I don't know how we could ever determine the % of fans you mentioned, but I can tell you there is a divide between the low end players who bet for entertainment and the high-volume, professional, and serious but non-professional bettors.

Hana's emphasis on handle does not go over well with the former and may even be impeding signups among them. If they even believe 300 players are responsible for $25 million in annual handle, how many of them are likely to identify with others who wager such amounts.

A picture was painted on this board and the blog of some HANA leaders spending more to attend the BC than some casual players would bet on both cards. They certainly are entitled to enjoy the fruits of their resources, but flaunting the HANA-BC connection may have given the impression that there is more green in the wallets of HANA members than the grass in its roots; and undermined its image as an agent of change to the status quo.

When such individuals subsequently publicly engage in speculation as to the intelligence level of those who disagree with them it only strengthens the elitist image.

I can understand the sensitivity among the HANA team to my attempts at humor regarding the Zast article observation about fan membership and his suggestion for increasing it, but then the CFO accused me of undermining HANA's efforts while revealing aspirations to achieve the size and influence of AARP or the UAW. Some might consider such aspirations to be power and influence seeking on a personal as well as an organizational level; and a danger sign that HANA could become part of the problem rather than the solution.

If HANA requires increased levels of membership to achieve its objectives, that should be the first order of business. Is HANA pursuing anyone with grass-roots political organization experience for its advisory board, e.g., Obama campaign veterans, or is tacing celebrity status the primary criteria? Two distinguished members are veterans of the NTRA player panel, whose recomendations were previously ignored by the industry just as the Cummings Report is being ignored by the horsemen. What exactly is the purpose and what are the specific objectives of the advisory board?

For me personally, the difficulty is the time-frame in which the benfits of HANA membership can be realized. I'm having doubts that -- in my lifetime -- I'll be able to bet any race at any track from a cash rewards ADW and watch it live on the internet.

[DeanT]

HH,
I can tell you there is a divide between the low end players who bet for entertainment and the high-volume, professional, and serious but non-professional bettors.


Hi Indy,

We try and work that in. I am currently looking at median wagering size and I can tell you it is quite good in terms of variance. Theresia and John I dont think bet too much, but they are not shy in spending money to be fans. It is tough to get an ideal mix for the leadership, I agree, as most people who want to take the many hours a week for the cause live breathe and eat racing.

I can understand the sensitivity among the HANA team to my attempts at humor regarding the Zast article observation about fan membership and his suggestion for increasing it, but then the CFO accused me of undermining HANA's efforts while revealing aspirations to achieve the size and influence of AARP or the UAW. Some might consider such aspirations to be power and influence seeking on a personal as well as an organizational level; and a danger sign that HANA could become part of the problem rather than the solution.

When you work so hard you get frazzled at times. I apologize for anything I have done as I am sure others do. It is tough but I know for a fact, and I wont be moved on this: Everyone in out 2 hour calls each week want one thing - a better game for all players. We try our best but are far from perfect in execution and otherwise.

For me personally, the difficulty is the time-frame in which the benfits of HANA membership can be realized. I'm having doubts that -- in my lifetime -- I'll be able to bet any race at any track from a cash rewards ADW and watch it live on the internet.

Us too. But that is the goal. We will go down swinging trying to get the business to appreciate the customer, large and small, and offer open access and lower prices to 50 states and 10 provinces to every sized players. It sickens me that our players are not treated properly, nor are they having their benefits maximized. I know you may not agree some time with the specifics, but be assured that everyone wants exactly that, a better game for everyone to play.

Best,

Dean

[Charlie D]

Thanks for the links guys

Enjoying the debate your having over there, but a piece of advice if i may

don't insult the ignorant - EDUCATE THEM

[Indulto]

Hi Indy,

We try and work that in. I am currently looking at median wagering size and I can tell you it is quite good in terms of variance. Theresia and John I dont think bet too much, but they are not shy in spending money to be fans. It is tough to get an ideal mix for the leadership, I agree, as most people who want to take the many hours a week for the cause live breathe and eat racing.

When you work so hard you get frazzled at times. I apologize for anything I have done as I am sure others do. It is tough but I know for a fact, and I wont be moved on this: Everyone in out 2 hour calls each week want one thing - a better game for all players. We try our best but are far from perfect in execution and otherwise.

Us too. But that is the goal. We will go down swinging trying to get the business to appreciate the customer, large and small, and offer open access and lower prices to 50 states and 10 provinces to every sized players. It sickens me that our players are not treated properly, nor are they having their benefits maximized. I know you may not agree some time with the specifics, but be assured that everyone wants exactly that, a better game for everyone to play.

Best,

Dean
Dean,
You’re the most positive and congenial person I’ve encountered in cyberspace and a great PR man. There is no question that you and others are putting in lots of time in addition to having personal and professional lives. The pressure of making a mountain out of what was a molehill has to have been a frustrating job for you, personally, and one that has to be taking its toll. Neither of has anything to apologize for because we both want HANA to succeed, but – based on our perspectives – we sometimes we measure success differently.

It’s hard to serve more than one master. The 80-20 rule was mentioned here recently. If handle is where HANA feels that power lies, one might think it should represent the 20% who produce 80% of handle. But if I interpreted Slewis correctly, whales are unlikely to withdraw from the pools until everybody else does first. Does that mean it’s the other 80% that deserve the primary focus?

I don’t think so. IMO that’s the cat herding option. The target that makes sense to me is the 50% just outside the 10% that are whales who might relate to one another a little better that HANA needs to represent. That means that whales that see a change to the status quo to be to their advantage long-term or otherwise should be welcomed, but not courted. And neither should anybody who can’t readily see the benefits which should be self-evident.

This is not advocating class warfare, but recognition that those who really want the benefits are the most likely to work for them. The whales could bring about the changes we seek almost instantly, but they won’t. Why should HANA cater to this group like the horsemen do?

I respect what you’ve already achieved and I believe that -- if HANA is successful by either of our criteria -- your contribution will be among the most significant. BTW I like your term GEH (Grassroots Everyday Horseplayer). Is that intended to refer to those who play everyday, but are not whales or professionals, or is it more inclusive in both directions? Would it fit my target 50%?

Take care,
I

[DeanT]

I wish I had answers to those questions but I don't think we have them yet. Right now it is one of those exercises, hopefully not an exercise in futility, but an exercise in trying to find out what to do next.

Will a whale boycott or procott with small players? Will small players make up 99% of the membership and ask to focus on other issues? I dont know. From what the big players are telling us I think you'd be surprised - they are saying "get rebates for the smaller players too". The smaller players are telling us that they are not enjoying the game right now because they have to open five accounts, don't know what the heck is going on and/or dont feel they are treated very well at the live venues if they play there. One fella signed up who said he bet $500 a year. he was more passionate about racing in the comments than could be imagined.

If I had to make a guess I would think that HANA would end up being filled with players who PMD or PPA = play most days or post to paceadvantage and other sites. The ones who really are stoked with racing. One day a year, or ten day a year players might not be as enthused. I dont know for sure though. It is a very young organization as you know.

From the comments I can say one thing I think is true - the bulk of them think Jeff et al are on the right track. If we take a different track would we attract more players who knows? Maybe so. I do know we have really grown tho. Up about 100 players the last few weeks. We are trying and it seems to be paying off a little bit. I think within six months I would be able to address your questions better; I sure hope so.

D

[DeanT]

I dont think Jeff or anyone would mind me telling some stats. If so, kick me in the butt!

I just tallied the players who we have a good idea about, and who have told us their handle. 41 have handles over $100k a year. In contrast we have 89 players who play less than 10k/year. The rest (those who filled out the form) lie between 10k and 100k. Not everyone fills out the handle numbers and with some of course they are not verified. It does give us a decent idea of the demographic as when we get more and more samples, the statistical noise becomes less. I am pretty proud of this mix so far.

Our smallest player is $400 a year. Our largest is several million. We do not know about our HANA board members like Cary and those as we have not asked them about handles. Only sign ups are included in our number crunching in terms of handles or membership.

On the site my most favorite comment has been from a horseman who bets $12000 a a year. Everyone seems to be on the same page with many of the issues in the Mission Statement and for that we are grateful.

I hope that sheds some light on the membership that many of you have pledged your support to. Which of course we give mucho thanks for.

Total documented handle is currently $25.2M. That is without people who have filled out the form or board members.

[Indulto]

... Will a whale boycott or procott with small players? Will small players make up 99% of the membership and ask to focus on other issues? I dont know. From what the big players are telling us I think you'd be surprised - they are saying "get rebates for the smaller players too". The smaller players are telling us that they are not enjoying the game right now because they have to open five accounts, don't know what the heck is going on and/or dont feel they are treated very well at the live venues if they play there. ...

... If I had to make a guess I would think that HANA would end up being filled with players who PMD or PPA = play most days or post to paceadvantage and other sites. The ones who really are stoked with racing. ...

... From the comments I can say one thing I think is true - the bulk of them think Jeff et al are on the right track. If we take a different track would we attract more players who knows? Maybe so. I do know we have really grown tho. Up about 100 players the last few weeks. ...Some of HANA's founders are whales who supported its stated objectives. I assume some other enlightened high rollers joined along the way in order to get from 10 M to 25 M.

1 M/yr is roughly 20K/wk or 4K/day, Regardless of how it's distributed, 25 M suggests that 100K/day the best that HANA could currently expect to withhold from the pools assuming the members normally conducted their betting at the same track.

It's important to have recruiting goals. Some questions are: 1) Which track(s) are both sufficiently visible and also deserve a negative impact on it's handle? 2) How much handle is sufficient to make an impact at each such track? 3) How might new members that normally bet the target track(s) be located? and 4) How can members be converted to recruiters?

Perhaps the existing membership should be polled as to how they distribute their handle over which tracks.

[rrbauer]

I travel a pretty fair amount to different tracks throughout the country during the year and I travel pretty well, I am not exactly renting a compact and staying at the Econo Lodge....

What's wrong with that?

[miesque]

What's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing, just not my style and I should have omitted that comment. I was just annoyed after reading that thread over there and that was an expression of my general exasperation about it.

[DeanT]

Some of HANA's founders are whales who supported its stated objectives. I assume some other enlightened high rollers joined along the way in order to get from 10 M to 25 M.

1 M/yr is roughly 20K/wk or 4K/day, Regardless of how it's distributed, 25 M suggests that 100K/day the best that HANA could currently expect to withhold from the pools assuming the members normally conducted their betting at the same track.

It's important to have recruiting goals. Some questions are: 1) Which track(s) are both sufficiently visible and also deserve a negative impact on it's handle? 2) How much handle is sufficient to make an impact at each such track? 3) How might new members that normally bet the target track(s) be located? and 4) How can members be converted to recruiters?

Perhaps the existing membership should be polled as to how they distribute their handle over which tracks.

:ThmbUp:

We were speaking about that last time. I think right now we are in a "get to 500" stage. Then we plan on contacting members to see such things. I was just thinking about that last night actually. Knowing what tracks they play and if they would significantly be behind a procott for example is the next step. As Jeff noted before, if any action comes it will be with a huge plan that is set out step by step to ensure that it will work.

We should have a newsletter out soon to members, hopefully asking many questions. Maybe even with polls. Item agenda 435, the way we're going right now :)