Horse player groups on At The Races - Now

[BillW]

A few reps from horseplayers groups are now on "At the Races" ...

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/

SwetyeJohn is scheduled for tomorrow discussing HANA!

Replay will be available in the archive this evening after the show for those who miss it live.

[Cangamble]

I've been listening since 5 EST.
What is with the Woodbine ad "the smart people bet Woodbine"
Has Sirius no shame?

[BillW]

I've been listening since 5 EST.
What is with the Woodbine ad "the smart people bet Woodbine"
Has Sirius no shame?

Money talks :D

[BillW]

BTW (for those listening to the archive later) the fan group interview was split by an interview with John Kimmel. It started at 4:30 EST thru about 4:45 EST and resumed at 5:00 PM till 5:30.

[BillW]

Reminder:

HANA scheduled for ATR interview today.

[DeanT]

On in a couple of minutes.

[Indulto]

On in a couple of minutes.Byk volunteered to be a spokesman. SJ should try to recruit him on-air.

[rrbauer]

One comment on the show: BARRRFFFF!

[highnote]

One comment on the show: BARRRFFFF!


Not sure which part you didn't like or what you expected. I'll admit, it wasn't my finest moment. I'm closer to a professional horseplayer than a professional spokesperson.

I felt like a maiden first time starter in with a Grade 1 winner. Steve does radio everyday. That was my first time on radio and it's a bit disconcerting having headphones on and hearing my own voice in the headset all while being on the hot seat and hoping that I haven't missed any key points.

I suppose radio is like any other discipline -- it takes practice to get good. Some people are naturals, but obviously, I'm not one of them.

I never felt I had a radio voice and this confirms it. :D

I wish I would have had more hard hitting things to say, but felt that it was best to use the air time to just raise awareness about HANA. I figure we're in this for the long haul so no need to fire our cannons today.

If anyone else wants to be the spokesperson next time, (and that includes you, Richard), you are more than welcome to take my place. In fact, I'll be glad to set up an interview for whomever feels they can express HANA's positions.

Anyway, like it or not, I did the best I could. Constructive feedback would be helpful and appreciated.

BARFFFF isn't particularly helpful. It tells me you didn't like it, but which part -- the performance or the message (Steve or me, or both)?

I'm an amatuer, and the performance reflects that. The message -- I just attempted to hit the points that we discussed during the meetings. I probably missed a lot of things.

How would you suggest doing it differently?

What would you have said?

How could it be improved next time?

[highnote]

Reminds me of an old saying ... and I paraphrase ...

When Demosthenes spoke, people cheered.

but when Pericles spoke, people marched!

However, when Swetye spoke, people barfed. :lol:

[hoovesupsideyourhe]

GOOD JOB..STEVE IS A PRO ITS HARD TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS OUT OF YOUR MOUTH WHEN ITS TIME...BUT STILL THINK YOU DID A CREDIBLE JOB FOR HANA..AND THANKS TO STEVE FOR HAVING YOU..

[miesque]

Keep in mind this is just a starting point. I think it was actually a very good learning experience for the group as a whole as it illustrated some areas we need to tighten up and refine. After we do that we can concentrate on having more polished presentations.

[Indulto]

... I'm closer to a professional horseplayer than a professional spokesperson.

... How could it be improved next time?Thanks to Derby Trail for his friendly and supportive treatment of HANA, and for raising the issue of boycotts/procotts which I assume he also believes was what his audience wanted to hear about. I think he was also trying to help differentiate between HANA and the groups profiled on the previous day. I hope those in contact with him will see if he can be recruited to join HANA and take him up on his on-air offer to serve as a spokesman.

SJ,
There's nothing wrong with your radio voice. What I didn’t understand, though, was the absence of passion in pursuing and promoting HANA’s justification for existing. It almost sounded as if you were conflicted about HANA’s objectives as currently stated. Perhaps the ADW model some members are/were working on could be a topic of future conversation to advance HANA’s non-confrontational agenda if that is what you are more comfortable with.

[rrbauer]

How many new members since the radio show?

How many new members in August?

[DeanT]

How many new members since the radio show?

How many new members in August?
Hey Rich,

August has been decent. Generally getting a couple a day. Not sure how many since Thursday. August is generally a bad month for anything web oriented, and most blog updates have been a little less than usual with people vacationing. September everyone will be more active I imagine. This is doing very well, imo.

John,

Thanks for giving it a shot! That had to have been a little intimidating for sure. I hope you enjoyed your time at Toga. I got swamped starting about Monday with stuff and have been AWOL. I wish I could have been there to play some races with you fellas.

[DJofSD]

I enjoyed the characterization the group was focused on and about making money. And, the issue about multiple ADW accounts and open access by all ADW's to all races was good too.

I would like to see some further delination as to why we're being so GDI about it and not joining up with other organizations or seeking an afflilation with NYRA or NTRA. Don't misunderstand -- I like being independent from the established organizations. Matter of fact, I think it says something important: IMO, by and large, those groups serve the interests of the industry but not the bettor. No one is going to look out for our interests like we can.

Also, in the interviews on 8/27, the women made a very good point about the failure of the industry to capitalize on the promise of the internet. We should adapt the same posture and add our voices to theirs.

Finally, the idea of a procott is OK. You get more flies with sugar than vinegar. However, if the truth be told, mounting a nation wide boycott I think will be the only way to figuratively hit the industry over the head with a two-by-four. Change generally only happens when there is pain. And the only way pain can be delivered is to withhold our bets.

Good job being on the program and during a live program. Speaking in public or on the radio is not something easily done. Hopefully the offer to get on the program again is sincere and will be taken advantage of.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Indulto]

I enjoyed the characterization the group was focused on and about making money. And, the issue about multiple ADW accounts and open access by all ADW's to all races was good too.

I would like to see some further delination as to why we're being so GDI about it and not joining up with other organizations or seeking an afflilation with NYRA or NTRA. Don't misunderstand -- I like being independent from the established organizations. Matter of fact, I think it says something important: IMO, by and large, those groups serve the interests of the industry but not the bettor. No one is going to look out for our interests like we can.

Also, in the interviews on 8/27, the women made a very good point about the failure of the industry to capitalize on the promise of the internet. We should adapt the same posture and add our voices to theirs.

Finally, the idea of a procott is OK. You get more flies with sugar than vinegar. However, if the truth be told, mounting a nation wide boycott I think will be the only way to figuratively hit the industry over the head with a two-by-four. Change generally only happens when there is pain. And the only way pain can be delivered is to withhold our bets.

Good job being on the program and during a live program. Speaking in public or on the radio is not something easily done. Hopefully the offer to get on the program again is sincere and will be taken advantage of.DJ,
Good comment. I share a lot of those sentiments, but it's becoming clear that while HANA wants to be a voice for change, it doesn’t yet want to be a voice for action.

My impression is that HANA leadership is more comfortable with a strategy that avoids confrontation; both with elements of the industry power structure and between players who bet for a living and those who bet for entertainment -- despite sometimes conflicting interests.

I don't know if it's even possible to mount an effective nationwide internet-based boycott without promoting anonymity, rather than discouraging it. I suspect there may be a lot of non-professional players who'd be willing to get involved for proactive purposes if they didn't have to attach their private lives to the cause.

Those whose lives revolve around horseplaying are unlikely to be concerned with privacy as they are already transparent to the government and whatever communities to which they belong. The NTRA player's coalition has over a thousand members. What % of those are professional players and what % of all professional players do they represent?

In any event, it's all about redirecting handle in some way to make it clear that that horseplayer dissatisfaction is responsible. My problem with procotting is that it might require me to make bets I might not otherwise which I don’t think is healthy. Boycotting might require not making a bet I ordinarily would, but I’d have no problem restraining myself for the greater good.

If a log-in message board existed to enable anonymous activists to freely (though not privately) discuss strategic handle-holding, and then e-mail all interested parties to invite them to take concerted action if they were so inclined, a “’cott” of some sort might be orchestrated despite the inevitable “plants.” Of course that might preclude some egotists here who believe who they are is more important than what they say and do.

I can't address the issues of professional players who would have no income if they placed no bets, but I myself am simply betting less until conditions improve. Normally, I'm a regular weekend/holiday player. Now I'm just a spot stakes race player. Not as much action, but my results are actually getting better and I don't feel like I'm fueling the status quo. If enough non-professionals back off, maybe the professionals will have to as well, and perhaps then we'll ALL get the recognition and consideration we think we deserve.

It appears that HANA members who are big bettors are also enlightened enough to agree that a better deal for the smaller player is a better deal for them as well. However, it is my perception that most high-volume players are satisfied with the status quo, because the industry is already catering to them.

Unless the cluless are made aware of the value of rebates and the cost of playing without them, they still aren't going to join. Thus, HANA members who might be offended by such revelations (and any attending rhetoric) need to also consider the greater good.

[highnote]

http://www.lasvegassun.com:80/news/2008/aug/29/web-poker-banned-they-play-politics/

Denver — Not long after Congress passed a ban on Internet gambling, PR man John Pappas knew he had to be here at the Democratic National Convention.

Pappas represented online poker players. Their ragtag Poker Players Alliance had been stunned by Congress’ midnight approval of the ban late in 2006.

Internet gamblers had been powerless to block the bill. They were only loosely affiliated. They often knew one another only by their online nicknames.

But they did have computers and they had passion. Over the following 18 months, they learned quickly about the nexus of politics and influence.

....

Online gamblers formed a vast network online, nearly overnight, built around a single issue.

Not long ago, that kind of organizing took months, if not years — and a fair amount of seed money. Today, as the poker players demonstrated, a group with modest resources but decent Internet hookups can organize swiftly.

Some say the group’s grass-roots campaign helped oust longtime Republican Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa from office. Leach had authored an anti-online gambling bill.

More recently, poker players swarmed the Republican Party’s platform-writing Web site, protesting a plank opposing Internet gambling.

Pappas knew the online work could take the group only so far. If poker players wanted the attention of political leaders, they needed to do something big, and public.

[rrbauer]

Last year on this board we had a petition that was “signed” by some 400+ horseplayers and presented to the Jockey Club at their meeting in Saratoga. Result: Lip service from the Jockey Club. Action from the Jockey Club: NOTHING. Action from the rest of the racing power structure that could be influenced by the Jockey Club: NOTHING.

Last year on this board we had a couple actions that were referred to as “Procotts”. I have no idea how many people participated. What the level of participation was in terms of dollar volume, I don’t know. What I know is that we got no feedback from the management at the tracks involved; not even a “Thank you for your business”, and we got no publicity from our actions. NOTHING.

Fast-forward to this year. A group of horseplayers form a group and call it HANA. It gets some publicity. It builds some membership. From that membership it should be able to name a set of directors and elect a set of officers to give it some leadership and direction. So far it hasn’t. Why? I have no idea.

HANA was supposed to have a web site. It doesn’t. Why? You would think that having a web site would be an important attribute and give the leadership a forum from which to launch its ideas; and, give the membership a forum from which to respond to the issues that we face as horseplayers.

Why can’t HANA get out of the piggyback mode, stop using the forums of places like Pace Advantage and the blogs of Google and start building something that its membership can point to and be a distinct part of? I don’t know. I mean if it’s the frigging money, tell me how much you will need for the next year and I will fund it personally. (With some conditions that I will be happy to discuss with the named officers and directors.)

The single most important thing that HANA and its members need to understand is that our ONLY bargaining chip in any fight with the horseracing power structure, IS OUR MONEY. And, it will be a fight. Until we get ourselves on equal footing in the minds of those people who make up the power structure nothing that we do or attempt to advance will receive any serious consideration. If this is not a primary credo of HANA then HANA will not be an agent for change; and, HANA will not be a part of resolving the issues that are unfair to horseplayers.

It is OUR money that makes this game go. Not the racetracks. Not the horse owners. It will be our actions that will produce change and resolve the issues that are unfair to horseplayers. This will all come at a price. Do the members of HANA really want to change things or do they just want another platform from which to bitch for a few moments and then move on to the next race?

Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better. Removing OUR money from the pari-mutuel pools will make things worse for the industry. If enough of us do that and we work from a common agenda we have a chance to get recognized and to influence change. Only the changes will make things better. If we can’t work together towards making change happen then there will be no change. There will simply be a continuation of the status quo and more NOTHING.

If you've ever been in the military you know that you don't get to sign up for just one battle. You sign up for the war. So what's it going to be HANA?

[DJofSD]

Last year on this board we had a petition that was “signed” by some 400+ horseplayers and presented to the Jockey Club at their meeting in Saratoga. Result: Lip service from the Jockey Club. Action from the Jockey Club: NOTHING. Action from the rest of the racing power structure that could be influenced by the Jockey Club: NOTHING.

Last year on this board we had a couple actions that were referred to as “Procotts”. I have no idea how many people participated. What the level of participation was in terms of dollar volume, I don’t know. What I know is that we got no feedback from the management at the tracks involved; not even a “Thank you for your business”, and we got no publicity from our actions. NOTHING.

Fast-forward to this year. A group of horseplayers form a group and call it HANA. It gets some publicity. It builds some membership. From that membership it should be able to name a set of directors and elect a set of officers to give it some leadership and direction. So far it hasn’t. Why? I have no idea.

HANA was supposed to have a web site. It doesn’t. Why? You would think that having a web site would be an important attribute and give the leadership a forum from which to launch its ideas; and, give the membership a forum from which to respond to the issues that we face as horseplayers.

Why can’t HANA get out of the piggyback mode, stop using the forums of places like Pace Advantage and the blogs of Google and start building something that its membership can point to and be a distinct part of? I don’t know. I mean if it’s the frigging money, tell me how much you will need for the next year and I will fund it personally. (With some conditions that I will be happy to discuss with the named officers and directors.)

The single most important thing that HANA and its members need to understand is that our ONLY bargaining chip in any fight with the horseracing power structure, IS OUR MONEY. And, it will be a fight. Until we get ourselves on equal footing in the minds of those people who make up the power structure nothing that we do or attempt to advance will receive any serious consideration. If this is not a primary credo of HANA then HANA will not be an agent for change; and, HANA will not be a part of resolving the issues that are unfair to horseplayers.

It is OUR money that makes this game go. Not the racetracks. Not the horse owners. It will be our actions that will produce change and resolve the issues that are unfair to horseplayers. This will all come at a price. Do the members of HANA really want to change things or do they just want another platform from which to bitch for a few moments and then move on to the next race?

Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better. Removing OUR money from the pari-mutuel pools will make things worse for the industry. If enough of us do that and we work from a common agenda we have a chance to get recognized and to influence change. Only the changes will make things better. If we can’t work together towards making change happen then there will be no change. There will simply be a continuation of the status quo and more NOTHING.

If you've ever been in the military you know that you don't get to sign up for just one battle. You sign up for the war. So what's it going to be HANA?
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Rich, you "said" a mouthful!

[rrbauer]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Rich, you "said" a mouthful!

Thanks DJ...actually was inspired by your post and Indulto's.

[DeanT]

This grassroots organization has been in business for only a couple of short months. A website shorter than that. In that short time a good number of members have signed up. Rome was not built in a day, and neither will this.

We will no doubt decide if boycotts or whatever is the way to go. But speaking of them with 150-200 members is crazy. It will do nothing.

No matter what is said about HANA, or how some feel, the fact is, HANA is growing. Day by day. All with people giving a couple of hours a week and spending no money. Readership is there, and people are seemingly agreeing with most of the platform.

Where will it be in six months or a year? Who knows, but maybe we will have 1000 active members, or maybe 2000. When you have that, and get some word of mouth and keep plugging away, gain some respect and all the rest, maybe it can grow exponentially from there. Then decisions are made and you have some gravitas in making those decisions.

I work on the Internet for a living. A few years ago one client comes to mind. He had a website, with less traffic than HANA's. He worked hard, financing it with his credit cards and tried. Four years later he is a huge success story. I can guarantee if he was where HANA is after 2 months and not spending a dime, or having someone run it full time, he would have been extremely happy.

Kudos to those who have been a part of this. Onward and upward.

[rrbauer]

This grassroots organization has been in business for only a couple of short months. A website shorter than that. In that short time a good number of members have signed up. Rome was not built in a day, and neither will this.

We will no doubt decide if boycotts or whatever is the way to go. But speaking of them with 150-200 members is crazy. It will do nothing.

No matter what is said about HANA, or how some feel, the fact is, HANA is growing. Day by day. All with people giving a couple of hours a week and spending no money. Readership is there, and people are seemingly agreeing with most of the platform.

Where will it be in six months or a year? Who knows, but maybe we will have 1000 active members, or maybe 2000. When you have that, and get some word of mouth and keep plugging away, gain some respect and all the rest, maybe it can grow exponentially from there. Then decisions are made and you have some gravitas in making those decisions.

I work on the Internet for a living. A few years ago one client comes to mind. He had a website, with less traffic than HANA's. He worked hard, financing it with his credit cards and tried. Four years later he is a huge success story. I can guarantee if he was where HANA is after 2 months and not spending a dime, or having someone run it full time, he would have been extremely happy.

Kudos to those who have been a part of this. Onward and upward.

I respect your opinion Dean, but we disagree on this one.

I can get a site up and running in a couple days. And, I don't do it for a living. You can't? HANA was talking about a web site and domain name back in MAY. They took a collection of money to pay for registering the name and paying startup hosting expenses. It's now the last day of August. More than 2 months has elapsed. Someone seems to have the horse and cart mixed up. If you want to be an organization you might start by being organized.

I will ask the question again: Since the radio broadcast, how many new members? In July when we visited the membership issue it was stated that getting a hundred new members a month was attainable. At the end of July, I recall something like 120 members? Where are we a month later?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of having to wade through posts at the Pace Advantage board to find out what (if anything) HANA is doing.

[Indulto]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Rich, you "said" a mouthful!Thanks DJ...actually was inspired by your post and Indulto's.rrb,
Yours was an inspiring post if ever I read one -- and one containing many truths -- but what actually motivates your demand for a named board of directors before building a following? Has that approach worked with your trackthieves and boycott_az operations? I’ve only visited the former and it’s a great site, but how many sign-ups have you attracted?

Maybe I’m wrong about the reluctance of the average player to get involved, but it seems to me that that most people still prefer a secret ballot. If I am right, there will be plenty of time to name the negotiating party AFTER the mule’s attention has been acquired. Just based on your observations regarding the petition and procott, it’s doubtful that anyone from the existing power structure will talk seriously with any of your named directors until they are forced to, and that will take significant NUMBERS.

This is not like not like your MEC boycott I’ve admired where protestors were able to work together face-to-face in a single location. This is the internet where many people prefer to be faceless. Why else would there be so many lurkers? How many unique IP addresses visited your site compared with sign-ups despite your compelling arguments.

BTW, thank you for your kind words in the "Paulick Report" thread regarding my Op-Ed piece that HANA graciously published which responded to Paulick’s article on Fred Pope -- even though you didn’t know I was the author. ;)

[DeanT]

Hi Rich,

A website is not a be all and end all, so I don't know why anyone is caught up in that. I can list 50 sites that have become money makers in the private market that have started exactly this way - in fact over the last year it has become a marketing strategy in business for companies offering new products, or floating trial balloons. Secondly, Jeff has a mock up of a site with a hopeful centre blog entry area, for fresh content. The urls have been purchased for HANA. I think the boys will get that done soon.

August was a slow month. I dont know how many we got. I think around 30 and a few since Thursday. The website has been slow as several people are on vacation and we have not updated it as we have liked. August is always slow, in real business too. I average 400 ebook downloads for one site I work for. This month he will get 175.

I imagine September will get back rolling. When we write a good story and it is posted on Pualick, or Seth's site, it brings in members, because when they look at the platform, they like what they see.

I know John did not do as well as he could on the radio. He admits it. If anyone else could do better they can gladly volunteer. For a guy who donates his time and got this nicely off the ground I offer only a thank you.

Organizations that grow overnight disappear just as quickly, imo. This does not look like it will be one of those. Slowly but surely it is growing. It is evolving, just like we see here with the discussions presently going on - some of these discussions will no doubt be HANA planks in the future, which imo, the way it should be.

If it works, it works, if it does not it does not. Right now I am happy that it has gone well. If people want to criticize, that's fine, but there is an easy fix to your crticism: Add some content to the site, do some work, attend meetings, offer help. Everyone is welcome to help. Fledgling organizations depend on that.

[Indulto]

Hi Rich,

A website is not a be all and end all, so I don't know why anyone is caught up in that. I can list 50 sites that have become money makers in the private market that have started exactly this way - in fact over the last year it has become a marketing strategy in business for companies offering new products, or floating trial balloons. Secondly, Jeff has a mock up of a site with a hopeful centre blog entry area, for fresh content. The urls have been purchased for HANA. I think the boys will get that done soon.

August was a slow month. I dont know how many we got. I think around 30 and a few since Thursday. The website has been slow as several people are on vacation and we have not updated it as we have liked. August is always slow, in real business too. I average 400 ebook downloads for one site I work for. This month he will get 175.

I imagine September will get back rolling. When we write a good story and it is posted on Pualick, or Seth's site, it brings in members, because when they look at the platform, they like what they see.

I know John did not do as well as he could on the radio. He admits it. If anyone else could do better they can gladly volunteer. For a guy who donates his time and got this nicely off the ground I offer only a thank you.

Organizations that grow overnight disappear just as quickly, imo. This does not look like it will be one of those. Slowly but surely it is growing. It is evolving, just like we see here with the discussions presently going on - some of these discussions will no doubt be HANA planks in the future, which imo, the way it should be.

If it works, it works, if it does not it does not. Right now I am happy that it has gone well. If people want to criticize, that's fine, but there is an easy fix to your crticism: Add some content to the site, do some work, attend meetings, offer help. Everyone is welcome to help. Fledgling organizations depend on that.DT,
Whether the cup is being seen as half-empty or half-full, there needs to be a vehicle for more timely on-line interaction with members. Maybe a website by itself is not a better answer unless it deploys something like this JelSoft forum package allowing for transparent and independent verification of growth through unique logins, (no lurking for other than a welcome message describing the organization, its purpose, and sign-up process), polls to stimulate feedback, and threads to initiate Op-Eds and record discussion.

Is it accurate to compare HANA with a business trying to make money? Just as I asked rrb about traffic versus signups, does HANA have a way of gauging the effectiveness of recruitment when other blogs link to a HANA blog entry?

Finally, although you, personally, have been very encouraging and a pleasure to work with, I think your blanket welcome for others to help should be qualified to avoid any further rude awakenings. When the camaraderie of the PA board gave way to a position against anonymity, no one had the nerve individually or collectively to notify me that I was being excommunicated. A couple did at least advise me of a “whispering campaign,” but not who was supporting it or its outcome. I welcome hearing the other side of the story, if there is one.

Undoubtedly, there will be some who won’t consider this criticism constructive, but I'm being open about this because I'm proud of my contributions to HANA and I believe it's headed in the wrong direction with or without me. To succeed, I believe HANA needs to embrace the player who plays for entertainment and focus on leveling the playing field for them. That's what will attract new fans, grow handle, and increase attendance to some degree if there's also less reason to fear breakdowns.

Professionals who understand that more money available from non-professionals means more will eventually make its way into their wallets, also need to support the unfairness theme because that’s the only one that will be effective. All the other things will fall into place if that happens AND horseplayers are the reason it happens through collective confrontation.

It doesn’t matter if 150 sign-ups is good by previous internet model standards, this rate of growth won’t achieve much before the window of opportunity for industry reform closes. This year’s BC is particularly vulnerable to proactive pressure. rrb is correct in his assertion that things will have get worse before they get better, but if HANA continues to remain intolerant of anonymity, it will eliminate more support than most of you realize. HANA’s motto should be: “Leave no boycotter behind.”

[JustRalph]

great post RR

I am going to remind some of a post from a past thread. I don't want to piss anybody off, but I thought this post was dead on. I appreciate everything these guys in the HANA group are doing, and I applaud them. But this thing has got to go big or not at all. That takes money, and fulltime work. Money I would think would be the easy part. Horse players don't mind spending money, we all know that. I agree with the comments on a full blown website etc. Good stuff. After the website is setup, I think the first item would be electing a board and a Paid membership drive. Then you could really get to work. Just my two cents.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176421&postcount=5

[Jeff P]

Richard,

Agree 100 pct with everything in your post. Money withheld, or threat of money withheld, are the only weapons players have to effect change.

Simply put, if HANA is to effect change, THAT is the way to make it happen. Track management and horsemen's associations might agree to meet with us at some point. But they aren't going to make changes in the name of making the game better for the player on their own.

Before HANA can effect change we will need 1000's of members.

Publicity and a site can go a long way towards making that happen.

Someone else was was going to create the HANA site. I was the back up plan. As of right now, I think the group has now charged me with the task of making it happen.

I 've prepared a site mock up which can be viewed at this url:

http://www.JCapper.com/hana/hana.html

Nothing is set in stone yet. It's is a mock up only. Text and layout will likely undergo a few changes before it becomes live.

That said, expect to see a working site at this url within the coming week:

http://www.HorseplayersAssociation.org



-jp

.

[DeanT]

Nice work Jeff. Looks great :ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

looks good Jeff.........

[raybo]

Jeff,

What you have done with the site, so far, is exactly what I had envisioned when the discussion that evolved into HANA first started. We originally had some naysayers who said it had been tried before and failed, it would never work, you have to have membership fees, etc., etc., etc.

I, along with several others was stubborn and stood by my guns. We can cause change, but as you say, we must attack the status quo in numbers, lots of numbers.

HANA's #1 goal must be, and should have been from the beginning, grow membership, through a well thought out website and public exposure by any other means available.

As the previous membership tracker, I noticed that membership numbers took off only after some sort of public/forum exposure occurred. That was enough proof for me, to believe that exposure and advertising is the way to grow our membership numbers.

Until we become numbers in the thousands, very little impact will be gained, concerning the state of the current industry shortcomings.

Well done!

[Indulto]

great post RR

I am going to remind some of a post from a past thread. I don't want to piss anybody off, but I thought this post was dead on. I appreciate everything these guys in the HANA group are doing, and I applaud them. But this thing has got to go big or not at all. That takes money, and fulltime work. Money I would think would be the easy part. Horse players don't mind spending money, we all know that. I agree with the comments on a full blown website etc. Good stuff. After the website is setup, I think the first item would be electing a board and a Paid membership drive. Then you could really get to work. Just my two cents.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176421&postcount=5
JR,
That was the second time you provided a link to that post of andicap’s, but perhaps -- in your own words -- you could explain in detail exactly how the money should be collected, within what IRS reporting requirements, and then used to accomplish exactly what?

If HANA has a fatal flaw, it's not that it doesn’t have money, it’s that there are too many both inside and out who are willing to wait for others to do something rather than seize the day themselves.

Applause sounds nice, but it doesn't get much done.

[JustRalph]

JR,
That was the second time you provided a link to that post of andicap’s, but perhaps -- in your own words -- you could explain in detail exactly how the money should be collected, within what IRS reporting requirements, and then used to accomplish exactly what?

If HANA has a fatal flaw, it's not that it doesn’t have money, it’s that there are too many both inside and out who are willing to wait for others to do something rather than seize the day themselves.

Applause sounds nice, but it doesn't get much done.

Point well taken. I am just saying, in my opine........

1-Membership
2-Funds to form an organization collected from Membership
3-Andi's post is dead on.

Until you get 1 and 2 you aren't going to get much done.

Hiring an accountant would take care of collecting the funds etc. I am sure there is a Horseplayer out there somewhere who is a competent accountant.

In a nutshell, go big. Do it right.

Then set an agenda and pursue it.

[cj]

The lack of a web site is 100% my fault. Jeff stepped up from what I am catching up on now and that is greatly appreciated by me. I tried to do too many things at once and it just wasn't possible. I have also become pretty discouraged by the state of the game.

I thought once I retired from the military I'd smoothly transition into betting to supplement my income. It is proving to be possible, but due to the ridiculous state of our game right now, probably not worth the work and aggravation.

The menu of tracks that will take my money (yes, you read that right) is changing daily. The ridiculous odds swings at most tracks, due to the minuscule pool sizes and outdated technology, are pretty discouraging. Do we really need tracks where a horse that is 7 to 2 at post time pays $16 to win, or a horse that is 7 to 2 at post time pays $4.40? I saw both of these today. How is anyone supposed to make an informed decision in a game like this? Why do we need 27 pools on every race?

You want more? Ever try to get the latest scratches for all the tracks? Equibase is supposed to keep them up to date, but they miss many tracks throughout the day or are late posting them. Surface changes? Distance changes? Good luck finding those with any consistency.

I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that the only places worth making a bet are New York and California.

Hopefully HANA can help change some of this. I wish I could say I will withhold my bets to help the cause, but in truth, I'll be boycotting most tracks because the product sucks. Had I done it a few years ago I'd probably have less grey hair and more money.

[Indulto]

Point well taken. I am just saying, in my opine........

1-Membership
2-Funds to form an organization collected from Membership
3-Andi's post is dead on.

Until you get 1 and 2 you aren't going to get much done.

Hiring an accountant would take care of collecting the funds etc. I am sure there is a Horseplayer out there somewhere who is a competent accountant.

In a nutshell, go big. Do it right.

Then set an agenda and pursue it.It has proven difficult to recruit people from PA even without asking for money. How do you hire expertise you can't pay for? Would you be willing to pay for a membership prior to HANA's establishing a legitimate funding handling hierarchy? No-one claiming to have accounting/fundraising experience showed up early. Is someone available now?

I appreciate your response, JR, but you’ve really only offered generalities and not specifics – a problem typical of early HANA meetings. As far as andicap’s post is concerned, it’s no template for success, but rather a common sense warning of how hard the task being contemplated actually is. I have to say that his following passage was prophetic:… . You would need the right person to head the group: a diplomat who can reconcile the bickering factions that are sure to make up such an associatio; someone "presentable" to the powers that be so the group is not represented by some loudmouth gadfly but a cool-headed, smooth, professionally looking executive type. Like Marvin Miller with the baseball union.

The problem is that horseplayers are too selfish and unorganized to ever get together. Look at the discord on this board alone and in this thread. Horseplayers are independent and feisty by nature. Look at all the libertarian types on this board who distrust authority.

Some horseplayer in Chicago is going to trust some group started by people he doesn't know back in New York or Boston or Columbus or Tulsa. Maybe if you got a big name involved you've got half a shot. …No one with website experience was available to do anything back then either. If not for DT, CG, and chick, there wouldn't be a blog or even a URL if not for GT. Somehow things managed to catch fire anyway, but then few were either willing or available to fan the flames. I don’t know if the team was ever expanded to use new members outside PA or new to the board.

I think the very next things HANA should do before anyone invests any more of their resources is 1) take the time and thoroughly debate the mission statement and revise it as necessary to make sure everyone is on the same page, and 2) empanel three people to resolve all disputes and keep everyone one aware of contending issues and their resolution

cj and/or JP, what do you anticipate the website accomplishing that the blog doesn’t? Will it eventually deploy some of the same functionality of this message board software like polls and discussion threads?

[JustRalph]

Would you be willing to pay for a membership prior to HANA's establishing a legitimate funding handling hierarchy?

Sure I would. What is your plan for membership? 20-40 bucks a year? What the hell, lots of guys throw that away on lunch or a 20-1 shot. You might recall I was very gung-ho and involved in the first early group that started.......... I eased myself out of the way when certain events occurred. But I in know way would not support what HANA is and is doing so far. Stick that membership fee up on a website and I would be glad to join and pay.

You make several other good points. The one thing I would have jumped on was Steve Byk offering to be a "spokesman" I wouldn't have left the place without offering him some type of position or access to being involved in HANA. This guy and his radio show on the side of HANA could be a deal breaker. He would have added credibility etc..........as far as I know he is well respected and he has the bully pulpit of the radio show.

I am a supporter 100%. Carry on.......

As an example of what can be done long term, check out this website. These guys do it right and have for a long time. Like 70 years..........

http://www.aopa.org/

Not exactly a perfect comparison..........but an interesting one.

[Indulto]

Sure I would. What is your plan for membership? 20-40 bucks a year? What the hell, lots of guys throw that away on lunch or a 20-1 shot. You might recall I was very gung-ho and involved in the first early group that started.......... I eased myself out of the way when certain events occurred. But I in know way would not support what HANA is and is doing so far. Stick that membership fee up on a website and I would be glad to join and pay.

You make several other good points. The one thing I would have jumped on was Steve Byk offering to be a "spokesman" I wouldn't have left the place without offering him some type of position or access to being involved in HANA. This guy and his radio show on the side of HANA could be a deal breaker. He would have added credibility etc..........as far as I know he is well respected and he has the bully pulpit of the radio show.

I am a supporter 100%. Carry on.......

As an example of what can be done long term, check out this website. These guys do it right and have for a long time. Like 70 years..........

http://www.aopa.org/

Not exactly a perfect comparison..........but an interesting one.I not only recall your involvement, but was also extremely disappointed that you weren't this time around.

What I've always advocated is free membership with only e-mail address and state requested. It hadn't occurred to me earlier, but another priority of HANA should be enabling every resident of every state to be able to wager on horseracing over the internet in the privacy of their own home. This is another "unfairness" issue.

I would definitely NOT pay team members. There's already a lot of talent at HANA willing to work for the cause, they just need additional capable help to spell them. I'm too far behind the technology curve or I would have loved to have been involved in that part of it. HANA does need an organizer, but not a despot. Anybody come to mind?

Once HANA is functional again, they might want to look at ways to reach out like e-mail campaigns through PA, but also racing book vendor/publisher lists if commercially available. Would HANA need to be a not-for-profit company with all the attending reporting requirements in order to solicit or even accept funding/reimbursement for specific projects? They certainly need people with the appropriate knowledge or the time to research everything. It was less than two handfuls of people that worked on getting it as far as it did

BTW I think Derby Trail also deserves kudos for plugging the paceadvantage board (and PA himself) on his radio show. HANA couldn't have happened or been maintained without PA's support. I can only imagine how much money he saved HANA.

I've started looking into the costs of hosting a website and purchasing a JelSoft license. Maybe I could still learn to program in PHP, but I doubt it would be the best use of my declining capacity. At this point I'd consider helping fund a shoestring operation to try and organize anonymous non-professional bettors to ignore the "Ladies' Classic" and take advantage of the Filly Friday backlash.

[DerbyTrail]

Quick note to thank John for coming on "At the Races". Was pleased to have him for an initial introductory visit to get the basics of the H.A.N.A. concept out to listeners... and I thought he did great considering all there was to discuss on the topics of concern. The beauty of having 15 hours a week on Sirius is that HANA's platform and efforts can be explained and fleshed out without being rushed. As I pledged, ATR is totally available to help those behind the Association keep fans/players informed on the issues it seeks to address and its' initiatives. Am happy to help in any way I can.

Steve

[BillW]

Quick note to thank John for coming on "At the Races". Was pleased to have him for an initial introductory visit to get the basics of the H.A.N.A. concept out to listeners... and I thought he did great considering all there was to discuss on the topics of concern. The beauty of having 15 hours a week on Sirius is that HANA's platform and efforts can be explained and fleshed out without being rushed. As I pledged, ATR is totally available to help those behind the Association keep fans/players informed on the issues it seeks to address and its' initiatives. Am happy to help in any way I can.

Steve

Thanks, Steve. We really appreciate the opportunity to introduce ourselves to your audience and your support. It will be a long haul and we'll certainly need all the help we can get.

[DeanT]

Yes, thanks for that Steve. Really nice for you to offer such a fledgling group some time. Not many people would, especially since many of the ideas of HANA tend to be against the status-quo.

[DeanT]

great post RR

I am going to remind some of a post from a past thread. I don't want to piss anybody off, but I thought this post was dead on. I appreciate everything these guys in the HANA group are doing, and I applaud them. But this thing has got to go big or not at all. That takes money, and fulltime work. Money I would think would be the easy part. Horse players don't mind spending money, we all know that. I agree with the comments on a full blown website etc. Good stuff. After the website is setup, I think the first item would be electing a board and a Paid membership drive. Then you could really get to work. Just my two cents.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176421&postcount=5

A man of his word.

Thanks for the donation Ralph.