Race horses are dying at the rate of three a day

[Light]

I didnt realize the death rate was this high and is actually higher due to unreported deaths:

(06-15) 04:00 PDT Lexington, Ky. -- Thoroughbred racetracks in the United States reported more than three horse deaths a day last year and 5,000 since 2003, and the vast majority of the animals were put down after sustaining devastating injuries on the track, according to an Associated Press survey.

Countless other deaths went unreported because of lax record keeping, the AP found in the broadest such review to date.

The catastrophic breakdown of filly Eight Belles at the Kentucky Derby last month made the fragility of a half-ton horse vivid for the millions watching, but the AP found that such injuries occur regularly in every racing state. Tracks in California and New York, which rank first and sixth in thoroughbred races, combine to average more than one thoroughbred death for every day of the year.

Source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/15/SPFC119H59.DTL

[Greyfox]

Yes, I know what you're saying. We all agree that death of a horse at the track is very tragic.

Having said that:
1. Many of these horses would never have seen the light of day except for the sport.

2. The stats are meaningless without the death rates of "control group" of thoroughbreds who aren't racing.

3. Death rates are higher each and every day for the "human race."

[Light]

GF

Your trivialization of the problem does not lessen its importance.

[lilmegahertz]

113 in NY? 44 at Calder alone? I hope the folks promising us the famous solution hurry and find one. Any time a horse goes down, it is a terrible thing.

[Cangamble]

I'm curious about what states allow race day bute and the mortality rates there versus non race day bute states.

[Marshall Bennett]

Well lets see if we can't bring out even more to damage the game . I'd bet just as many die after birth from tripping over their front two legs . I'll never understand why people bring up such negative shit like we need anything else to kill the sport . Sorry if I sound pissed but right now I AM !! Grrr .... batter up !! :mad: :mad:

[cmoore]

They should divide these deaths that were on track by class. I would guess that a majority of deaths are in the lower claiming levels. Just a guess though. What's the data on the synthetic tracks anyways. Has it cut down on break downs??? Drugs are definitley a problem..This sport needs to put the horses first and they are not. It's all about the almighty dollar, just like everything else.

[OTM Al]

I am holding some reservation with this until the full methodology is made clear. I ran 2007 races in NY as a query at all 4 tracks and used the phrase "broke down" as the the request in the comment line. I got 23 for the year. Chart writers that I've seen always indicate a break down in those words, so I'm missing 90 of these deaths (if indeed all the break downs did end in death). 113 just seemed too high for on track incidents as it is pretty rare when one goes down here. This must include everything then as far as I can figure from straight out accidents to training injury.

[KMS]

Yes, I know what you're saying. We all agree that death of a horse at the track is very tragic.

Having said that:
1. Many of these horses would never have seen the light of day except for the sport.

2. The stats are meaningless without the death rates of "control group" of thoroughbreds who aren't racing.

3. Death rates are higher each and every day for the "human race."

the reason it matters is this is the kind of news that moves anti-racing sentiment from the ranks of animal rights nuts into the mainstream. When soccer moms start agitating against you, your goose is cooked. The industry had better get ahold of this and fast. Will they? They haven't shown me anything lately to inspire much faith in their competence...

[Greyfox]

GF

Your trivialization of the problem does not lessen its importance.

Accuse me of what you want.
I accuse you of failing to read http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47886

That post was clearly placed earlier in the day than yours about the same information.

Give your head a shake.
My comments were very sincere. We all hate to see a horse go down.

Read the other threads before you post, puhleese.

[Greyfox]

GF

Your trivialization of the problem does not lessen its importance.

P.S.
If you think that is a major industry problem,
and considering your moral stances elsewhere on this forum,
don't let fear and common sense hold you back from never
betting a nickel on this sport. Donate, your losses to P.E.T.A.

[Greyfox]

GF

Your trivialization of the problem does not lessen its importance.


If you think that the problem to the is racing industry is so huge, and the sport is inhumane, quit.
Donate your tithe to PETA. Put your money where your mouth...err typing is.

[Light]

Greyfox

I thought your response was cold and cruel.You said:

1. Many of these horses would never have seen the light of day except for the sport.

Are you playing God? What about your life? What accidental circumstances surrounded you coming into this life?

You also said:

3. Death rates are higher each and every day for the "human race.

Stupid logic. How many humans are there compared to race horses? That's like saying, If a horse is killed or injured,so what,humans die everyday. The only problem with that is how many humans are bred for someone else's pleasure and profit?

My point is we do get free labor,pleasure and food from animals. The least we can do is return the favor with humane treatment. Attitudes like yours for the service these animals provide is what has deteriorated the sport.

[Marshall Bennett]

Greyfox

I thought your response was cold and cruel.You said:



Are you playing God? What about your life? What accidental circumstances surrounded you coming into this life?

You also said:



Stupid logic. How many humans are there compared to race horses? That's like saying, If a horse is killed or injured,so what,humans die everyday. The only problem with that is how many humans are bred for someone else's pleasure and profit?

My point is we do get free labor,pleasure and food from animals. The least we can do is return the favor with humane treatment. Attitudes like yours for the service these animals provide is what has deteriorated the sport.
I feel greyfox made a valid point . My problem with your attitude is that despite your feelings you continue to follow the sport and participate in this forum . I'd be long gone , damned if I'd indulge in a game where animals are treated horribly .

[ddog]

If the racing industry are even the slightest concerned with this issue and moving to improve it, then why are there no good stats for decades to the present?

If there are I have missed them.

Which of you in your business would not measure the "failures" which these incidents are.

They may not be intentional or preventible, but they are worthy of being tracked and have been forever actually.

Would it not be helpful to know which types of races and/or which tracks and when in the seasons these things occur?

I have never understood why one would not want to know.

As for hiding or looking away from negative news , that's the sure fire way to the poor house or worse in any business.
IMO.


To me , the control group would come from each track itself, if one had records going back decades as there should have been.
What you are looking for is are the deaths increasing given the population of horses running and the various changes to the tracks and race conditions over time.

Not sure we can do now, since noone seemed to REALLY care what was going on at a macro level in the past or if they did I don't see the stats.


??

[Shenanigans]

I would bet more than 3 a day go. I bet that doesn't include the morning mishaps. I seem to recall in the other thread too, that AR, Mich. and another state don't keep stats. I was in one of those states and a certain trainer (who will go nameless) was losing a horse a week in the AM.

[ddog]

I know a meet that will go nameless, that if you only lost 10-12 during the meet , that would be a 500 year event.


Many that survived the meet, will not show anywhere again.

I had to stop attending/playing the thing.

It was a horror show.

[Greyfox]

Greyfox

I thought your response was cold and cruel.... The least we can do is return the favor with humane treatment. Attitudes like yours for the service these animals provide is what has deteriorated the sport.

Light you can think of me what you want.
I advance the idea that thoroughbreds are treated very humanely, in contrast to other animals.

You point out the stats, yet you don't advance one iota of an idea for improving our humane approach to thoroughbred racing. Not one idea have you given.
Sorry, just pointing out stats that most of us have known for a long time doesn't cut it with me. Where are your suggestions?

[Light]

We already know what the problems and solutions are in this industry. Until owners and breeders change their attitude,nothing will change. Their attitude will not change because of my words or the words of those with my point of view. Its a slow process,but they will eventually change because this is the direction the river is flowing.

[KMS]

I'll leave aside the morality argument; if you don't intuitively get that, nothing I say is going to change anyone's mind. There's a practical issue here.

Since the Kentucky Derby, I've heard more than one person comment to the effect that "horse racing needs to go the way of fur coats." That is Not A Good Thing. If racing doesn't have very high visibility among the general public, at least it doesn't have a particularly negative image--not yet. If that changes, it's going to have big implications for racing's future. Is it rational, when people eat meat and exploit animals in so many other ways? Maybe not, but people often aren't rational. The industry had better get on top of this.

[ddog]

I feel greyfox made a valid point . My problem with your attitude is that despite your feelings you continue to follow the sport and participate in this forum . I'd be long gone , damned if I'd indulge in a game where animals are treated horribly .


You won't make things better by betting less will you?
Wouldn't that bring hardship on the current population if adopted by a majority of players.

Talking to people not in the "sport" would help those in the sport change , how exactly?

[asH]

Greyfox

Stupid logic. How many humans are there compared to race horses? That's like saying, If a horse is killed or injured,so what,humans die everyday. The only problem with that is how many humans are bred for someone else's pleasure and profit?

My point is we do get free labor,pleasure and food from animals. The least we can do is return the favor with humane treatment. Attitudes like yours for the service these animals provide is what has deteriorated the sport.

I would like to think inhumane treatment of these elegant animals are on an individual level; identify the individual culprits then get rid of them. If you suggest an industry wide problem, change the rules, as with drugs….inhumane treatment of humans (children, female, cultural) far exceed the imagination, and yet we don’t talk about it.

[Kelso]

If racing doesn't have very high visibility among the general public, at least it doesn't have a particularly negative image--not yet. If that changes, it's going to have big implications for racing's future. Is it rational, when people eat meat and exploit animals in so many other ways? Maybe not, but people often aren't rational. The industry had better get on top of this.The only way to handle the perception problem is to drastically reduce the rate of breakdowns. That begins with "rational" breeding for a MUCH more sturdy animal ... and concludes with retiring them long before they're good for nothing other than the bullrings.

[thelyingthief]

GF

Your trivialization of the problem does not lessen its importance.

your over-dramatization of the issue does not elevate it above its simply unfortunate status either.

tell me, isn't it dark in there? don't you want to take your head out and breathe fresh air?

tlt.

[Light]

I guess you havent noticed the drama of Barbaro and Eight Belles on nationwide television.The negative publicity this sport is getting. That this is such a BIG problem,racetracks are being forced to pay millions in surface improvements to try to stem the tide of injuries and deaths.You call that over dramatazation on my part but I'm only reporting the news. Once again we have someone who considers the lives of race horses expendable.Maybe you're the one who has his head where the sun dont shine.

[Light]

It's like having Arnold Schwarzenegger's body and Don Knotts' legs. We need stamina and durability as well as speed."

WASHINGTON, June 19 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Jess Jackson, majority owner of 2007 Horse of the Year Curlin, today asked Congress to support major reforms in the thoroughbred horse racing industry, including the creation of a national organization of thoroughbred horse owners to regulate the sport and a ban on steroids and all non-therapeutic drugs on race horses.

Testifying before the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade and Consumer Protection, Jackson said, the lack of central authority to create and enforce uniform rules and regulations, along with a flawed business model, resulted in bad industry practices that alienate fans, jeopardize the safety of the horses and jockeys and threaten the long-term economic viability of the sport.

"A legitimate national owners governing body with federally sanctioned authority to make and enforce consistent rules, regulations and standards is desperately needed," he said. Jackson said such an organization could solve most of the industry's central problems, which he said include a "lack of transparency of medical records and ownership, uniformity, accountability and enforceability (of rules)."

Jackson, owner of Stonestreet Farms and Stonestreet Stables, said the formation of a national owners group would be aided by a simple two-word deletion in Interstate Horseracing Act. He urged Congress to amend the law to permit race horse owners to organize in the same manner professional golfers were allowed to form the PGA.

Acknowledging that the industry "has a drug problem," Jackson said, "We must replace inconsistent and unenforceable state standards with a uniform national standard that is in accordance with international (zero tolerance) rules." He said thoroughbred owners and others in the industry "are all deeply saddened" about the deaths of race horses such as Barbaro and Eight Belles, adding that "We need Congress to take an active interest in assuring the integrity, safety and economic viability of this magnificent sport."

The industry's "broken business model" depends on profits from breeding rather than racing, Jackson said, noting that current estimates are that horse owners invest $4.3 billion a year for a chance to compete for approximately $1.1 billion in purses. "There is every incentive to shorten horses' racing careers, racing them too young and retiring them too soon, in order to get them to stud sooner ... " he said. "We used to breed to race. Now we race to breed."

Compounding the problem, he said, "The industry focuses excessively on breeding horses for early, brilliant speed at relatively short distances. Today too many breeders end up producing heavily conformed upper body muscled horses with relatively fragile legs. It's like having Arnold Schwarzenegger's body and Don Knotts' legs. We need stamina and durability as well as speed."

Because of the absence of transparency about the frequency and cause of racing-related injuries and limited access to medical records, conscientious breeders do not have sufficient information available to make fully informed breeding decisions, Jackson said. "The careers of racing horses are too short to provide much of a racing history on which to base predictions of the performance of their offspring," he said.

Jackson, founder of the Kendall-Jackson Winery, bucked industry convention and decided to race Curlin as a four-year-old, taking a risk that he would lose millions of dollars in breeding fees if something happened to the horse. He has said Curlin, winner of the Breeder's Cup, could set an example for the thrills and excitement older horses can provide the fans and the media. He told subcommittee members that the industry, fans and horses would benefit if the emphasis shifted to racing older, stronger and mature horses. He is actively acquiring foreign born horses bred for strength and stamina. "We're trying to breed a superior product just as we have in our wine business," Jackson said.

Jackson said his lifelong passion for horses dates back 70 years to his boyhood in California where he saw the great thoroughbred Seabiscuit run in a race not far from his home. "That memory has stayed with me all these years, and helped forge a strong affection for horses and a deep appreciation of their beauty, power, elegance and athleticism."

Even though he has only recently returned to thoroughbred ownership, Jackson said it has been apparent to him that major changes are needed. "The vast majority of the people in this business are honest, good people and they desire change," he said, "We need a national organization and commissioner to improve revenue with better marketing to save this majestic and thrilling sport."

http://www.streetinsider.com/Press+Releases/Jess+Jackson+Testifies+Before+Congressional+Subcom mittee/3757869.html

[Greyfox]

It's like having Arnold Schwarzenegger's body and Don Knotts' legs. We need stamina and durability as well as speed."


"A legitimate national owners governing body with federally sanctioned authority to make and enforce consistent rules, regulations and standards is desperately needed," he said. Jackson said such an organization could solve most of the industry's central problems, which he said include a "lack of transparency of medical records and ownership, uniformity, accountability and enforceability (of rules)."

Why a national owners body ? Aren't there other stakes holders with vested interests here?


Acknowledging that the industry "has a drug problem," Jackson said, "We must replace inconsistent and unenforceable state standards with a uniform national standard that is in accordance with international (zero tolerance) rules."

If the standards are unenforceable now, how will he enforce them then?


He said thoroughbred owners and others in the industry "are all deeply saddened" about the deaths of race horses such as Barbaro and Eight Belles, adding that "We need Congress to take an active interest in assuring the integrity, safety and economic viability of this magnificent sport."

Could Jackson guarantee that Barbaro and Eightbelles would be alive today if his suggestions are implimented?



Compounding the problem, he said, "The industry focuses excessively on breeding horses for early, brilliant speed at relatively short distances. Today too many breeders end up producing heavily conformed upper body muscled horses with relatively fragile legs. It's like having Arnold Schwarzenegger's body and Don Knotts' legs. We need stamina and durability as well as speed."


Owners will breed as they wish. They will breed to win whether or not that requires stamina or speed. On the poly surfaces stamina is doing much better of late.

"The careers of racing horses are too short to provide much of a racing history on which to base predictions of the performance of their offspring," he said.

It seems to me that he defeats his own arguments re: breeding here.
If you can't predict for the offspring, how are you going to predict speed or stamina? Breeding has always been a pig-in-a-poke prediction.

[KMS]

saw one break down in Finger Lakes 5th today.

[Marshall Bennett]

Eibar Coa got dumped leaving the gate at Belmont today and went to the hospital but the horse is okay ...

[Kelso]

Why a national owners body ? Aren't there other stakes holders with vested interests here?Sad to find that even the richest and most successful ones suffer from owners' hubris. Jackson says he wants to return control of racing to the owners, but doesn't say anything about removing their access to government-sanctioned (and protected) pari-mutuel pools.


Owners will breed as they wish. They will breed to win whether or not that requires stamina or speed.This will change if, and only if, the Jockey Club (or a replacement authority) starts denying registrations to excessively-inbred foals. I have to believe the science is there ... or close to being there ... to adequately score ancestry. Scores higher that a stated cutoff can be bred, but they won't be registered and won't be licenced to race. End of problem.


It seems to me that he defeats his own arguments re: breeding here.If you can't predict for the offspring, how are you going to predict speed or stamina? Breeding has always been a pig-in-a-poke prediction.To give the devil his due, I think he means that the current breed-to-breed ethic takes apparently good horses off the track too early (by age 4) to be certain as to their genetic soundness.

[Greyfox]

This will change if, and only if, the Jockey Club (or a replacement authority) starts denying registrations to excessively-inbred foals. I have to believe the science is there ... or close to being there ... to adequately score ancestry. Scores higher that a stated cutoff can be bred, but they won't be registered and won't be licenced to race. End of problem.


Science?
To a point, I am not in total disagreement with you.
The bottom line is if " you throw enough shit at a wall some of it will stick."
The fee for Storm Cat was $500,000 a cover between 20002-2007
at maybe 90 mares or more a year.
Yes some offspring have gone on to run. How many haven't?
At $500,000 a "pop" I'd wager that the science is pretty slim in turns or returns.
If you have to believe that "the science is there" it is, but I'd take my chances if I had that type of money to outlay on betting on horses rather than hoping to breed a Triple Crown winner. I think the "Science of horse racing with respect to breeding, is slightly better than a roulette wheel, but not much."

[thelyingthief]

i honest to god would things continue as they are than see yet another federally sponsered group gain magesterial powers over others. statutes already outlaw most drugs and steroids, but the ability to detect their use remains problematic. how is a central oversight committee to alter this? answer: it won't, but fewer folks will have grander and more arbitrary powers than now exist in the sport, and the means to the abuse that always seems to rise in train to it. i mean honestly, why do you care what some idiot whines if some filly kicks the bucket in a race? they don't bet. they don't attend the races. they lack any real understanding of the problems confronting the sport. would there even be any thorobreds if racing were discontinued or non-existent? moreover, it's WE that count not they, and no one listens to us, why should they be any different? then too, we're handicappers, and as handicappers we already have just about as disreputable an image as you can get, who cares if they find further issue to persist in thinking so?

realistically, government negatively impacts nearly every business or organization it seeks or has ever sought to manage. and i hold as historically demonstrable, that when a bureaucrat promises to end a perceived corruption or injustice in the social world, what they really mean by it, is to concentrate the corruption and injustice in their own hands.

seems to me, an honest man should view a turn to this kind of dictatorialism as profoundly disturbing, since it is quite immaterial to a crooked one, who is scarcely any less illegal in his decisions or his actions than he was prior to said authority arising. in fact, he hones his skills against the iinterest taken in him to a greater level of refinement. and it also seems to me that this federal meddling in every aspect of our lives, beyond its sheer arrogance, is a smokescreen to hide its mismanagement of our national interests.

i utterly despise idealism. and its real world equivalent, the smoking pistol.

tlt

[WinterTriangle]

I feel greyfox made a valid point . My problem with your attitude is that despite your feelings you continue to follow the sport and participate in this forum . I'd be long gone , damned if I'd indulge in a game where animals are treated horribly .

I don't see it as a "take-it-or-leave-it" situation.

Win/Win would be to avidly participate in a sport you love, while also recognizing the problems. I myself have no problem supporting racing while also conscientiously being committed to making it better, for both the horses and the people involved.

And I'm about as far away from PETA as one could get, having been in the canine rescue orgs, and being able to distinguish between agenda and reality, hysteria and rationality, etc.

But I see nothing wrong with *identifying* a problem, and then working hard to ameliorate it.

Not at all an "either/or" proposition for me.

[Light]

damned if I'd indulge in a game where animals are treated horribly .

Well if you eat meat,you shouldn't with that philosophy. They are treated brutally and you pander the meat industry by consuming their products.

Race horses by comparison are treated with royalty. They are individually cared for as opposed to being tortured/manhandled in a cage then butchered to death.

The point with race horses is why subject them to unnecessary risks and injuries. I dont understand your attitude or GF's. Alot of resistance.What's wrong with trying to improve conditions for animals?

[thespaah]

GF

Your trivialization of the problem does not lessen its importance.
To shed the light of reality on to an emotional issue is not trivializing that issue.
He is spot on...Without the racing industry that animal would never have been born. Same as feed cattle and other doemsticated farm animals.
While the accidental death of these wonderful ceatures tugs at our heart strings we must not lose sight of the fact that horse racing is a business. Same as any other business where animals are used.
I worked in the racinmg business for a brief time. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the horses are treated far better than the humans that care for them.
Working horses get three squares, fresh bedding, and two baths every day. They get all knds of goodies and humans fawn all over them with affection.
I was lucky If I got to stop to eat lunch and grab a hot shower.
Really ,If we want to look into this issue with as much detal as needed, the entire horse ownership issue should be examined.
I am sure that the likelyhood of privately owned equines being mistreated far more frequently then race horses is great. I have no figures on this. Logic tells me the likelyhood of such a thing is possible.
Because racing is done in public and under the watchful eye of the habitually offended and politically correct, every time tme a racehorse goes down and tragically must be euthanized, the knee jerk reactionary wing of America goes into a blind hissy and wants to start banning things.

[thespaah]

Greyfox

I thought your response was cold and cruel.You said:



Are you playing God? What about your life? What accidental circumstances surrounded you coming into this life?

You also said:



Stupid logic. How many humans are there compared to race horses? That's like saying, If a horse is killed or injured,so what,humans die everyday. The only problem with that is how many humans are bred for someone else's pleasure and profit?

My point is we do get free labor,pleasure and food from animals. The least we can do is return the favor with humane treatment. Attitudes like yours for the service these animals provide is what has deteriorated the sport.you have no clue what your talking about..
I could sit here and rip you to shreds for your base ignorance. But I am going to be positive..
I invite you to take a look at any throughbred or standardbred training farm if you have any in your area. There are famrs where the public can gain access to the propperty.
Take a look at the daily operations of each stable housed there. As an animanl lover you'll be delighted to see the quality of care these animals receive. I ought to know. I worked on one such training farm.
On the other hand if you have an anti racing bias, dont bother. Because when emotion is involved, reality takes a seat in coach.

[thespaah]

Well if you eat meat,you shouldn't with that philosophy. They are treated brutally and you pander the meat industry by consuming their products.

Race horses by comparison are treated with royalty. They are individually cared for as opposed to being tortured/manhandled in a cage then butchered to death.

The point with race horses is why subject them to unnecessary risks and injuries. I dont understand your attitude or GF's. Alot of resistance.What's wrong with trying to improve conditions for animals?
"why subject them to unnecessary risks and injuries."
That is life..Without risk we have plastic bubbles.
BTW, why embelish using the word "unecessary"?...All injury and illness is unecessary.
The only way to insure a high safety ratio is to remove all risk. So why don't you just admit you'd like to see govts outlaw horse racing. Because that is the only way we'll see an end to injury and death or race horses..

[Light]

you have no clue what your talking about..
I could sit here and rip you to shreds for your base ignorance

Yes please rip me to shreds with your daggered words. I'm waiting. Any sport that averages 3 deaths a day of its players is in serious trouble. And you're just a broken record for the status quo. Micheal Vick went to jail for involment with dog fighting. Is the life of a horse worth less than a dog's? Yes one sport is legal and the other illegal,but you dont need laws to know right from wrong.

[thespaah]

Yes please rip me to shreds with your daggered words. I'm waiting. Any sport that averages 3 deaths a day of its players is in serious trouble. And you're just a broken record for the status quo. Micheal Vick went to jail for involment with dog fighting. Is the life of a horse worth less than a dog's? Yes one sport is legal and the other illegal,but you dont need laws to know right from wrong.
Ok it figures..You discarded the logical and went right for the the throat of the emotional..You ignored the part of my post that described my experiencs working with racehorses and the conditions in which they live.
With that, I must come to the conclusion that you have an anti horse racing agenda. So be it.
You are wrong and have no evidence to prove your claim. Nor have you put forth the slightest effort to put your claim into context..
That said, it really doesn't matter what you think. Yours are the ramblings of a bleating emotional individual on a PETA trip..Have a nice life. BTW, you'll not get your wish. The sport of Kings is here to stay. I hope thatgrrevates you to the point of distraction
Go eat your veggies...Leave the meat for the rest of us ..
Guess what ia m having for dinner...A big juicy steak. Then I will sit back and enjoy anice cold beer and think of all kinds of politically incorrect things to do . Just to piss you people off. I cuts both ways there,"Darkness".
You asked for it....So there...Lick your wounds.
Now go bother someone else who cares.
End of discussion.

[Light]

You are wrong and have no evidence to prove your claim.

I dont have a claim. I simply posted an article that says 3 horses are dying a day (on average).What's your problem?

[thespaah]

Evidence....that's the problem.

What part of "have a nice life/end of discussion" did you not understand?
That's a rhetorical question. One that does not require a response.

[Light]

The evidence is in the mortuary.I dont know what other evidence you want than that. Are you saying the horses that were reported dead are really alive? You're one sick puppy.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yours are the ramblings of a bleating emotional individual on a PETA trip..Have a nice life. BTW, you'll not get your wish. The sport of Kings is here to stay. I hope thatgrrevates you to the point of distractionLight has been on here for years, and is a horseplayer. Please try to stay civil and on topic.