Non-political New Orleans question....

[tonto1944]

http://images.washtimes.com/images/pruden.gif Not much traction with the abuse

September 6, 2005


George W. finally gets it -- in more ways than one. The tardy president was back on the Gulf Coast yesterday, bucking up the spirits of the damned and stiffening the resolve of the slackers.
He's getting it as well from his critics, many of whom can't believe their great good luck, that a hurricane, of all things, finally gives them the opening they've been waiting for to heap calumny and scorn on him for something that might get a little traction. Cindy Sheehan is yesterday's news; she couldn't attract a camera crew this morning if she stripped down to her step-ins for a march on Prairie Chapel Ranch.
The vultures of the venomous left are attacking on two fronts, first that the president didn't do what the incompetent mayor of New Orleans and the pouty governor of Louisiana should have done, and didn't, in the early hours after Katrina loosed the deluge on the city that care and good judgment forgot. Ray Nagin, the mayor, ordered a "mandatory" evacuation a day late, but kept the city's 2,000 school buses parked and locked in neat rows when there was still time to take the refugees to higher ground. The bright-yellow buses sit ruined now in four feet of dirty water. Then the governor, Kathleen Blanco, resisted early pleas to declare martial law, and her dithering opened the way for looters, rapists and killers to make New Orleans an unholy hell. Gov. Haley Barbour did not hesitate in neighboring Mississippi, and looters, rapists and killers have not turned the streets of Gulfport and Biloxi into killing fields.
The drumbeat of partisan ingratitude continues even after the president flooded the city with National Guardsmen from a dozen states, paratroopers from Fort Bragg and Marines from the Atlantic and the Pacific. The flutter and chatter of the helicopters above the ghostly abandoned city, some of them from as far away as Singapore and averaging 240 missions a day, is eerily reminiscent of the last days of Saigon. Nevertheless, Sen. Mary Landrieu, who seems to think she's cute when she's mad, even threatened on national television to punch out the president -- a felony, by the way, even as a threat. Mayor Nagin, who you might think would be looking for a place to hide, and Gov. Blanco, nursing a bigtime snit, can't find the right word of thanks to a nation pouring out its heart and emptying its pockets. Maybe the senator should consider punching out the governor, only a misdemeanor.
The race hustlers waited for three days to inflame a tense situation, but then set to work with their usual dedication. The Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, our self-appointed twin ambassadors of ill will, made the scene as soon as they could, taking up the coded cry that Katrina was the work of white folks, that a shortage of white looters and snipers made looting and sniping look like black crime, that calling the refugees "refugees" was an act of linguistic racism. A "civil rights activist" on Arianna Huffington's celebrity blog even floated the rumor that the starving folks abandoned in New Orleans had been forced to eat their dead -- after only four days. New Orleans has a reputation for its unusual cuisine, but this tale was so tall that nobody paid it much attention. Neither did anyone tell the tale-bearer to put a dirty sock in it.
Condi Rice went to the scene to say what everyone can see for himself, that no one but the race hustlers imagine Americans of any hue attaching strings to the humanitarian aid pouring into the broken and bruised cities of the Gulf. Most of the suffering faces in the flickering television images are black, true enough, and most of the helping hands are white.
Black and white churches of all denominations across a wide swath of the South stretching from Texas across Arkansas and Louisiana into Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama and Georgia turned their Sunday schools into kitchens and dormitories. In Memphis, Junior Leaguers turned out for baby-sitting duty at the city's largest, most fashionable and nearly all white Baptist church, cradling tiny black infants in compassionate arms so their mothers could finally sleep. The owner of a honky-tonk showed up to ask whether the church would "accept money from a bar." A pastor took $1,400, some of it in quarters, dimes and nickels, with grateful thanks and a promise to see that it is spent wisely on the deserving -- most of whom are black.
The first polls, no surprise, show the libels are not working. A Washington Post-ABC survey found that the president is not seen as the villain the nutcake left is trying to make him out to be. Americans, skeptical as ever, are believing their own eyes.
Wesley Pruden is editor in chief of The Times.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

Look at this photo and tell me that the City government of New Oleans was not at fault for the trapping of 80,000 of its citizens.



http://blog.simmins.org/uploaded_images/nobus-706551.jpeg (http://blog.simmins.org/uploaded_images/nobus-707555.jpeg) An aerial view of flooded school buses in a lot, Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005, in New Orleans, LA. The flood is a result of Hurricane Katrina that passed through the area last Monday.(AP Photo/Phil Coale (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015))

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/gm/2005/gm050907.gif

[Tom]

Great coartoon!

Mayor FruitLoops was on Meet the PRess today - says they didn't have enough drivers for those buses. If he got as much milage out of one of them as he is getting out his ass-saving TV campaign, he could have gotten everyone out.

I for one am starting today to write all my representative to veto ANY funding t re-build NO. Recue, yes. Clean up/recovery, yes. Re-build...NEVER. It is a stupid idea. If they want to re-build and linve in a bowl again, I consider this natural selection and I don't wna t$1 of my taxes going this project. This is NO brainer.

[Lefty]

sec, the pres can only act after the state acts and the gov asks and you damn well know it. I get it, you get it, but you just wanta be a Bush hater. Bush begged the gov to declare a disaster.
So Clinton can get a bj while the world goes to hell, but after GW gets his business attended to, he can't relax? You are about as transparent as Saran Wrap. Repubs get things done, Dems wait for help and then yelp it was too slow.
Like Box said in another post, Bush ignores the state and storms in there now he's tagged as a tyrant. He can't win with you guys. But guess what, doesn't matter. He's in charge and your precious dems can only whine and make themselves look more foolish by the day.
BTW, they had food water all along, the gov, the mayor, wouldn't let em have it. Sad, sad. BTW, you're gettin as bad as lbj at trying to mock me. Maybe you're still in grade school as I suspect he is.
BTW again, if we're all smart, and a disaster hits us, we won't sit around and wait for help, we'll be prepared and take the appropiate action. If i had been in NO i'd have been long gone before the water trapped me.

[Lefty]

Tom, not enough drivers? How many people were needing evacuating? He coulda commandeered some drivers from the people wanting to leave. Problem was, he just wasn't up to making any decisions and is not fit for the job. He and the Gov make the writer of the Peter Principle right again.

[Blackgold]

The day after the hurricane, the Royal Canadian Mounties were on the scene in New Orleans with their own supplies, radio equip., etc., etc.

The first medicial supplies some got were from people that came from communities in Mississippi and Alabama.

After several days a FEEMA truck showed up, loaded with ice, and the parish president of St. Benard said to park it, they would distribute the next day 'cause all able bodied were in boats rescuing people in flooded homes. The FEEMA lady refused and started to leave, so they comandered the truck and told her to walk.

Just recently FEEMA refused to let the Sam's Clubs and Wal Marts in the area reopen, so Jefferson Parish Harry Lee (under martial law) took over the stores and ordered them opened.

One of the reasons Al Queyda (sp) will continue to out fox us is- they don't have the mindless bureauacy of the good ole US of A. They got little franchiees of operatives who find "opportunities" and react to them, whereas in America the ice will melt while overpaid pin heads discuss policy and procedure. And we have an ever growing national debt to support such stupidity because under such inefficient management- it's impossible to MAKE MONEY!

The Katrina disaster is just a small example of what's wrong with America and don't get too comfortable sports fans- it's coming to a town near you!

[Steve 'StatMan']

Tom, not enough drivers? How many people were needing evacuating? He coulda commandeered some drivers from the people wanting to leave. Problem was, he just wasn't up to making any decisions and is not fit for the job. He and the Gov make the writer of the Peter Principle right again.

Probably another case of laws and beaurocracy trumping common sense. "People have to have an Class (whatever) License to operate a School Bus. We can't have that. What if they crash. The City will get sued". Like with the traffic jams, the busses are going to be going more very fast. That young teen that 'got in trouble' by taking and driving that bus filled with fleeing people sure learned how to drive that bus in a hurry. Smart kid.

This is why people who Just Do It can succeed, and people who either Mandated, or are merely Obey/Following strictly enforced rules/laws to the letter without regard to common sense and critical need, will be slow to succeed, if not outright failing. Not sure whether to blame to Pols or the Lawyers, or just talk it up to the stupid human condition.

[Secretariat]

Bush begged the gov to declare a disaster.


Obviously you missed this timeline I posted showing Blanco declared a State of Emergency Friday. Now, jump down to Tuesday 5 days later to bush strumming on his guitar well after KAtrina hit. You really think that's leadership Lefty?

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

[lsbets]

I think Lefty was referring to the evacuation. When Blanco finally issued an evancuation order, she said it was "at the urging of Pres Bush."

[PaceAdvantage]

The day after the hurricane, the Royal Canadian Mounties were on the scene in New Orleans with their own supplies, radio equip., etc., etc.

Who turned away the Red Cross, who was there before the Royal Mounties?

[boxcar]

Obviously you missed this timeline I posted showing Blanco declared a State of Emergency Friday. Now, jump down to Tuesday 5 days later to bush strumming on his guitar well after KAtrina hit. You really think that's leadership Lefty?

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

Sec, I have one question for you: Should Bush have seized complete control of the situation by invoking the Insurrection Act and usurping Gov BlancLook's authority in the State of LA? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Boxcar

[Lefty]

black, you're doing our military and our leaders a great disservice when you say Al Quaida will continue to iutfox us. Where do you gert your info. We have killed arrested a bunch of them and cut off a lot of their money supply. WE just had the 4th anniv of 9-11 with no attacks on our country in berween.
And the Fed Govt not setup to make money, it's setup to dispense our tax money. The deficit goes up and down, so don't get your panties in a bunch.

[Bobby]

Black, Don't pay lefty much attn. Your right. When authorities from another country show up b4 our own, then something is wrong. No doubt about it. Everyone should agree with that.

[Secretariat]

Sec, I have one question for you: Should Bush have seized complete control of the situation by invoking the Insurrection Act and usurping Gov BlancLook's authority in the State of LA? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Boxcar

Yes.

If that's what it took absolutely, but he didn't need to because Blanco requested assitance via the Stafford Act which was not acted on by the administration as required by law. (It took days of debates in Washington. - See previous post)

Look, I'm not a fan of Nagin or Blanco. Nagin's a former Republican and Blanco is a Dixiecrat, but Blanco did exactly the right things required to invoke FEMA. I disagree with the LA Natlional Guard keeping out the Red Cross, but the Red Cross agrees with the LA National Guard decision keeping them out due to safety concerns. Bottom line was when Blanco requested federal help via the Stafford Act by a direct request to the President it was FEMA in charge of coordination - in fact it was ordered by the President in his own memorandum you can obtain on the WH site. They blew it. Blanco has no capabiltiy to mobilize other states National Guard, only her own. It's why Brown resigned today. The WH knows he f' ed up. He knows it as well. Bush's issue goes even deeper besides his "you're doing a heckuva
good job Brownie" comment.

Bush's issue goes to "NOT FOLLOWING UP". It goes to hiring him and unqualfiied political appointees in the first place for FEMA. It goes to slashing the funds dramatically of FEMA. It goes to, yes even the recall of the NG to fight in Iraq, which left Blanco with fewer troops and equipment, to mobilize for the emergency. It goes to ignoring the simulations presented well before this, and in spite of them demanding more federal cuts for FEMA while gving tax breaks to the wealthiest of Americans. All those things contibuted to his responsiblity in this mess. It goes to Bush's priorities when citizens are being viewed on TV without food and water to callously playing a guitar as the biggest disaster since 1906 SF earthquake. The fed response was almost non-existent until Nagin exploded on radio and it was aired everywhere along with the gathering convention center pictures. GW dropped the ball on this one. THat's why his poll numbers ae less than 40% o nthe handling of this.

[JustRalph]

Bush's issue goes to "NOT FOLLOWING UP". It goes to hiring him and unqualfiied political appointees in the first place for FEMA. It goes to slashing the funds dramatically of FEMA. It goes to, yes even the recall of the NG to fight in Iraq, which left Blanco with fewer troops and equipment, to mobilize for the emergency. It goes to ignoring the simulations presented well before this, and in spite of them demanding more federal cuts for FEMA while gving tax breaks to the wealthiest of Americans. All those things contibuted to his responsiblity in this mess. It goes to Bush's priorities when citizens are being viewed on TV without food and water to callously playing a guitar as the biggest disaster since 1906 SF earthquake. The fed response was almost non-existent until Nagin exploded on radio and it was aired everywhere along with the gathering convention center pictures. GW dropped the ball on this one. THat's why his poll numbers ae less than 40% o nthe handling of this.

There you go again, It goes to the fact that you hate Bush! It goes to the fact that you are blinded by partisan rage! It goes to you cutting and pasting your daily email of talking points, onto this board every day! It goes once again back to blind rage! Go ahead,make it about class war. Just do me a favor.......................and Go!!!

[boxcar]

Yes.

What part of just a "yes" or "no", didn't you understand?

But let's assume for a moment that Bush really felt that things were out of control and decided to invoke the Insurrection Act, we both fully know that you Libs would have been all over him like flies on dog do-do! Think about it for a moment: A male Repub President usurping the power of a female DemRat. You really think this kind of action would fly without the WH's roof coming down!?

If you do, I know where you can buy some prime real estate in the Everglades.

Boxcar

[Blackgold]

I just gave up after hours of trying to register on the FEMA website.

Over and over it said FEMA could not verify my identity.

Yet, that hasn't stopped people from sending me bills.

Someone suggested I call FEMA after midnight, when they aren't so busy.

I think I will, after all, today Sept. 12th, many cities are having a National Happy Hour to raise a glass to raise funds for Katrina victums.

I know FEMA is going to luv hearing from me after I've been to happy hour.

And by the way, most of this discussion on this thread and others are about New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. There are still many rural communities in Louisiana and Mississippi where help is still slow to non-existent.

So those of you in your air condtioned homes, high speed internet, food in the fridge and gas in the car- go a couple days without water, then go on Bill O'Reily and talk about how protected this country is.

[boxcar]

Hey, Sec, click on the link below and listen to BlancLook's own self-condemning words! What a clueless wonder. She even said that she doesn't know what day it is! This was not a level-headed woman. It appears that she never was able to think clearly. Hardly the kind of performance one would expect of a high-level leader!

In the interview, she "assumed" this, "thought" that, etc.

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09/12/blancocnndaybreak/

Boxcar

[schweitz]

An opinion on the Federal response:

www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

[boxcar]

Schweitz, a radio talk show host in my listening are just reported and was discussing the piece you reported.

Sooo many of the complaints by the ignorant and misguided media, political pundits (from both sides of the aisle) find their roots in armchair quaterbacking. The critics don't have the first clue as to numerous difficulties involved and all the obstacles that need to be overcome on the ground before relief and resuce efforts can be implimented.

"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 1992. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three

As stated previously, things were a huge mess in the aftermath of Hurricane Andrews, thanks mostly to DemRat Gov Lawton Chiles. He, too, didn't have the first clue. I know. I was there.

Boxcar

[Blackgold]

There's no doubt Gov. Blank Head has to go.

She was behind in the polls leading up to the election.

We were all set for a Bobby Jindal, now a state Rep., to come in and revolutionize the state government.

Then her team used the same busses that couldn't be used to evacuate people and took them to the polls and gave them fried chicken and beer- and thus got elected.

[Secretariat]

.

What part of just a "yes" or "no", didn't you understand?

But let's assume for a moment that Bush really felt that things were out of control and decided to invoke the Insurrection Act, we both fully know that you Libs would have been all over him like flies on dog do-do! Think about it for a moment: A male Repub President usurping the power of a female DemRat. You really think this kind of action would fly without the WH's roof coming down!?

If you do, I know where you can buy some prime real estate in the Everglades.

Boxcar

I tried to answer nicely.

See even when I answer Yes he should have used the Insurrection Act if necessary. See Box, it's about leadership when it's about people's lives. A true leader doesn't give a rat's ass about whether, as you say, DEMRats would be all over him. He does what saves lives. Thank you for pointing that out. He's more worried about his own political fallout than doing the thing that saves lives. In essence, this is what you're saying. "If he'd have done that the DEMRAT's woudl be all over him." Thank you for illuminating me that is the bais of Republican decision making in times of national crisis. Pathetic. Who cares if the WH roof comes down if it saves lives? Jesus.

And as to the NG, Blanco did deploy them. How else could they have stopped the Red Cross from entering? The NG from other states couldn't be there because it needed Bush's approval. He couldn't do that because he was working on his newest guitar melody for American Idol. Bill Richardson, the governor of New Mexico, has said he was willing to send New Mexico National Guard in Sunday, the same day Blanco sent her request to George " "Johny Cash" Bush. It took until Thursday for Washington to act. Thursday for god's sake. That isn't leadership.

And look at BlackGold's email below the above one you wrote. FEMA is STILL not there in the rural communities of MS. You can't reach them by phone. you can't register. A totall incompetent operation. it's been how many days since the storm hit, and you still can't get through to FEMA.

No wonder Brown quit. He couldn't take it. You don't put politcial appointees in emergency services positions. you just don't do it.

[schweitz]

Florida officials weigh in on local govt. Katrina response:


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2005/09/10/m1a_response_0910.html

[schweitz]

Interesting article on federal funds and La levees:

www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=1&issue=20050909

[lsbets]

Sec,

The President does not have to approve other State's NGs being sent in to a disaster area. All a governor has to do is invoke the Emergency Compact and other state's can mobilize guard members without federal approval. That compact was not invoked until well after the storm hit land. That is also why the guardsmen there fall under state control and not federal. It's totally up to the governors.

[Tom]

Consider this - if Mayor SFB had called for a mandatory evacuation on Friday, the casinos would had to close.

Now, what's this about him beingin Dallas and unreachable? Anyone heard about that?

[Lefty]

blackgold
says:So those of you in your air condtioned homes, high speed internet, food in the fridge and gas in the car- go a couple days without water, then go on Bill O'Reily and talk about how protected this country is.

Black, it's sad that there are people in this country that think the federal govt is there to protect us against everything. First of all your state govt bears most of the responsibility, second you must be responsible for yourself. The feds can come in, spend money, dispense food to the ones they can find, mop up, if you will, but if you hang around waiting for federal help then you blve as the libs do that the govt should be responsible for us cradle to grave. Not gonna happen. People have to learn to bear some personal responsibility.

[boxcar]

Consider this - if Mayor SFB had called for a mandatory evacuation on Friday, the casinos would had to close.

Now, what's this about him beingin Dallas and unreachable? Anyone heard about that?

Oh yeah...this is old news! He picked himself and his family up and not only moved to Dallas, but bought a house and enrolled his kiddies into school.

Evidently, he doesn't want to Mayor Tweedelee Dee doesn't want to be mayor of NO[thing].

Of course, as would be expected, the press has given him a big pass on "abandoning" his city -- abandoning his post -- his command.

Boxcar

[schweitz]

Watching CNN and they are beginning to figure it out----starting to question the mayor and gov.. Its about time.!

[Secretariat]

Black, it's sad that there are people in this country that think the federal govt is there to protect us against everything. First of all your state govt bears most of the responsibility, second you must be responsible for yourself. The feds can come in, spend money, dispense food to the ones they can find, mop up, if you will, but if you hang around waiting for federal help then you blve as the libs do that the govt should be responsible for us cradle to grave. Not gonna happen. People have to learn to bear some personal responsibility.

You hit the nail on the head Lefty. Bottom line this is the fundamental argument of state/local responsiblity versus federal responsiblity. The argument is the long term Republican beleif that local control is superior to federal control. That the less government the better as Boxcar would say.

The problem is Lefty in times of disaster the majority of Americans don't see it that way. No individual state including California could handle a disaster of this size. The polls of the american public have spoken loud and clear on this. They want, no demand a strong federal response in times of national catastrophes. The more the Right tries to paint this as a local issue, the more petty they appear, and the more Bush's polls will continue to spiral. It's called passing the buck, and Americans hate to see their leaders do that. But even more than that, it shows that program like national seucrity, national disaster protection ,social security are programs they want the federal government on the forefront.

Actually, I welcome the continual attempt to lay the blame on the local officals because they're democrats argument. The poll numbers keep going down with it and will continue to go down.

[Lefty]

Ya know, sec, the Dems jump on everything that happens in the world to paint Bush as not only ineffectual but uncaring and a racist to boot. All attempts have ultimately failed as will this one and I just sit here with bated breath to see what they will blame on him next. You dems are about as all wet as the 2000 busses that coulda evacuated thousands. I sit here watching the tv and hear about how poor the people are in LA and particularly black people. Since this section of the country has been under dem control for so long I say they better wise up and start voting republican; that is after this Republican adm gets done finding all the people and helping them and cleaning this mess up while you dems continue to whine.

[Suff]

Word out of tonight's emergency City Council meeting in New Orleans is not good.


They've discovered a crack (leak) in the 17th street Canal. Right now the lake level is in their favor. If New Orleans gets any kind of Substantial rain in the next few days it may re-flood to original levels.

Next piece of bad news. St. Bernard Parish with close to 100 thousand homes and a 250,000 person population is finished. The refinery located in that neighborhood had massive leaks. All of St. Bernard Parish is covered in OIL. They are predicting a return to this area of the city around June/July 2006.

[doophus]

...........Next piece of bad news. St. Bernard Parish with close to 100 thousand homes and a 250,000 person population is finished. The refinery located in that neighborhood had massive leaks. All of St. Bernard Parish is covered in OIL. They are predicting a return to this area of the city around June/July 2006.See article at:

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1126564442135951.xml&storylist=hurricane

Population of St Bernard is less than Suff mentioned above, but 68,000 remains a BIG number. Also, this parish is where they found the 30+ bodies in the nursing home that everyone thought had been totally evacuated.

We have known that Katrina hit St Bernard, Plaquemines & St Tammany parishes harder than others. We're still awaiting word from Diamondhead, an affluent golfing community between Slidell & Mississippi.

Did anyone see Doug Brinkley, history prof @ Tulane, describe in glowing terms the leadership shown by the La. governor, NO mayor, and La. Senator Landrieu? And I think he was serious.

[Suff]

See article at:

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1126564442135951.xml&storylist=hurricane

Population of St Bernard is less than Suff mentioned above, but 68,000 remains a BIG number. Also, this parish is where they found the 30+ bodies in the nursing home that everyone thought had been totally evacuated.

We have known that Katrina hit St Bernard, Plaquemines & St Tammany parishes harder than others. We're still awaiting word from Diamondhead, an affluent golfing community between Slidell & Mississippi.

Did anyone see Doug Brinkley, history prof @ Tulane, describe in glowing terms the leadership shown by the La. governor, NO mayor, and La. Senator Landrieu? And I think he was serious.

I hadn't seen anything on the net about it. I was working off an e-mail I got.
I worked with 25 Louisiana travelers on some big projects here and I'm getting local gossip here and there. e-mail said there were 100K homes covered in OIL and I attached 2.5 per household to arrive at 250K.

I expect mostly bad news as the water recedes. Bad news meaning... Nothing built down there was designed to sit in this for 10 days. The Mold issues alone pose a huge health risk. When thay drain the fluid... they better hope for weather in the 70's. Because if that mold gets 100 degree days it'll spread like a forest fire.

[doophus]

[QUOTE=doophus]We're still awaiting word from Diamondhead, an affluent golfing community between Slidell & Mississippi./QUOTE]

Dern, even I know that Diamondhead is located in Mississippi, not La. Another of those senior moments?

[Suff]

See article at:

.

Did anyone see Doug Brinkley, history prof @ Tulane, describe in glowing terms the leadership shown by the La. governor, NO mayor, and La. Senator Landrieu? And I think he was serious.

Local leadership was an utter failure. Period.

However It is easy for anyone to see that no one could have prepared for this.

prepared better ? yes. Reacted better? yes. Those points are clear.

I think it is important to realize that the tragedy is ongoing. It is not over. Yet no clear leader has emerged. The Mayor is still a whining bitch and the governor still looks like she has seen a ghost.

One organization pulled this thing together ....82nd Airborne. When they showed up....shit happened.

[boxcar]

The problem is Lefty in times of disaster the majority of Americans don't see it that way. No individual state including California could handle a disaster of this size. The polls of the american public have spoken loud and clear on this. They want, no demand a strong federal response in times of national catastrophes.

If this is the case, then contact your congress critters and get the laws that speak to jurisdictional concerns changed!

Furthermore, I, for one am not painting this as a "local issue" per se. I am saying, however, that for something which you're making out to be over, above and beyond the scope of local and state governments, one is led to wonder why all states have laws governing emergency preparedness, not to mention local and state procedures governing their responsesto disasters. The City of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana are no different.

The indisputable fact is that government officials, at both local and state levels, failed miserably in following and implementing their own laws and procedures. And since their own laws make them the primary responders in disaster situations, this local/state breakdown greatly complicated federal response, and caused unnecerssary suffering and deaths.

And if you're going to argue that this disaster was so devastating in scope and exceeded everyone's expectations, then you need to take your case and complaints to the CEO of the state of LA! The Governor could have, by law, given complete control over to the Federal Government. But she steadfastly refused to turn over the reins of her govenment over to President Bush. She was too proud. Sadly, her pride mattered more than people's lives. She had chances to relinquish her power , but this option just wasn't in her political playbook.

I know this is difficult for you libs to believe because you just can't bring yourself to accept poltiical realities -- to come to grips with the real world. You think that just because a politician carries the label "Democrat" that this miraculously elevates him/her to a winged and haloed angelic being incapable of all wrong doing. Well, let me tell you something, sir: Dems put their pants on the same way Repubs do. Both parties have more than their fair share of corrupt, dishonest, deceitful and power-hungry politicians. The sooner you come to grips with this reality, the sooner the scales will fall from eyes, and then you'll be saying, "Whereas I was once blind, now I see".

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Sec wrote:

See even when I answer Yes he should have used the Insurrection Act if necessary. See Box, it's about leadership when it's about people's lives. A true leader doesn't give a rat's ass about whether, as you say, DEMRats would be all over him. He does what saves lives.

Ahh...so political considerations shouldn't have entered Bush's mind, but did they ever enter into Blanco's? If the disaster was beyond her grasp, as you seem to be implying, why didn't she see this and specifically tell Bush to send the Federal troops in -- to take complete control of her state!?

Moreover, I'm not necessarily saying that Bush's decision to not invoke his powers under the Insurrection Act were polticially motivatated, but I am saying that you Libs would have found fault in that. We both know this. Why? Because Bush can do no right in a lib's eyes. There wouldn't have been any lib out there praising Bush afterwards for saving the day, for saving lives, for coming to the rescue of all those pooorr black people. No! Instead, you libs would have smeared him up and down for his POWER GRAB. You would have painted him as a power-hungry, power crazed dictator. A law breaker. An out-of-control tyrant. You and others like you would have taken the Insurrection Act and turned it on its ear. In fact, you would have been demanding his impeachment!

Having said this, from a WH perspective, we must remember that the administration has its own team of lawyers -- the sharks that you libs love more often than hate. I have to think there were more than a few legal issues raised by his legal staff about this Act. This is why Bush tried desparately to get Blanco to relinquish her power and authority as Governor. If she had done this voluntarily, there would have been no legal issues.

You see, Sec, on state issues, the buck stops with the Governor. She was in control (legally), so it was her place to lawfully relinquish that power and control -- far more than it was Bush's place to seize it from her.

Boxcar

[Blackgold]

I absolutely figured every state, local and federal official to fail, and they did.

I always leave days before any anticipated evacuation, because I know they will screw that up.

I'm safe, at a cost.

And that's what I'm ranting about.

If I can't depend on any of these turds- then why do I have to pay all this tax money.

[Lefty]

black, the gov is supposed to protect us against foreign enemies, that's their primary purpose. As I said, the Feds will come in and clean up, they're there and doing a great job. The Fed gov can't protect you against hurricanes so i'm glad you were smart enough to get outta there. If you lost your house the gov will eventually replace that. That's your tax money at work. So I don't really know what you expected. You got out, you did the right thing.

[boxcar]

If I can't depend on any of these turds- then why do I have to pay all this tax money.

"All this tax money" is needed to fuel the humongous engines of Big, Bungling, Bureaucratic Government. When it comes to government -- small is best!

Continue to rely on yourself and take your own initiatives and find your own improvisations. Think for yourself.

If God wanted only politicians to have brains, he wouldn't have given them to us to also use.

Boxcar

[Light]

Lefty Quote:black, the gov is supposed to protect us against foreign enemies

Scapegoat. The president takes an oath to protect the security and lives of the American people. Where is the clause that says Hurricanes and other natural disasters excluded? Where does it say we are allowed 5 day delays before sending help?

[Lefty]

light, the govt is setup to protect us against foreign enemies., i.e. we engage in war to protect our freedoms. Like Box said,and I paraphrase, the fed govt is a large bungling bureaucratic machine that is totally incapable of acting fast. I think Bush got there a day after he was legally entitled to. Meanwhile 2000 busses sat unused.
If you sit waiting for the feds you are a fool. Help yourself and the feds come in later. They are dn there now and doing marvelous work. If you had been mayor would you have used those 2000 busses? The local govt failed completely. They did not use their own evacuation plans. And libs like you can do nothing but criticize the Pres. You are in the dark, light. and sadly you will likely remain there.

[Light]

Lefty

Ever hear of the responsibility game? A federal disaster is any event, either natural or man-made, whose severity or magnitude overwhelms the capabilities of local and state authorities to respond.Such was the case. When a federal disaster is declared,it is the federal government's duty to respond...Not 5 days later.When NO is shown on TV to be underwater from day 1 ,does it take a proffessional to figure out the police,ambulance and firetrucks are probabably underwater too?

[Lefty]

light, they had warning enough to get the people out. This is where the locals suppossed to implement their evac plan. They did not. The govenor couldn't decide what to do. Bush's hands were tied(see all the prev comments about when the feds can come in.)I don't wanna reargue it all. Go back and read. The people who had transportation should have got out. The rest had time to be bussed out. They were not. How many times has it got to be said? Locals act early, feds come in later. That's the way it is. Black had sense enough to leave. I'm glad he did.

[Light]

Yatayata Lefty. You only see what you want to see.

[Tom]

.

One organization pulled this thing together ....82nd Airborne. When they showed up....shit happened.

I tend to pay attention to people with guns, too! :eek:

[Lefty]

light articulates this:Yatayata Lefty. You only see what you want to see

Well argued lightunderabushel, and loaded with facts.

[Secretariat]

Yatayata Lefty. You only see what you want to see.

Tell Lefty to give Broussard a call, and ask him what he thinks of the fed response. Light, they've listened to the spin from the FOX pundits and Limpballs and have decided its Blancos and Nagins fault. They'll never hear otherwise.

Here's just a bit on FEMA.

"On NBC's "Meet the Press," Broussard complained bitterly about the slow federal response to the New Orleans flood, demanding investigations and resignations. He particularly criticized the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Broussard said FEMA turned away three trailer trucks of water sent to New Orleans before the hurricane, refused to allow the Coast Guard to deliver diesel fuel to his parish and cut off emergency communication lines "without notice.""

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/hurricanekatrina/2002472762_katbrou051.html

[highnote]

Oh, I forgot to say why they can't send Karl Rove to New Orleans.

Karl cannot be close to levies, he cause too may "leaks". :lol:


JM


Just saw this .... it's a classic :lol: :lol:

[JustRalph]

"On NBC's "Meet the Press," Broussard complained bitterly about the slow federal response to the New Orleans flood, demanding investigations and resignations. He particularly criticized the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

So what? I can complain bitterly about tons of stuff and it doesn't make it true? I can demand that you and Stinky resign from the DNC Chowder head hall of fame and it won't mean a damn thing. You will continue to whittle away at the bandwidth which is off topic, your superfluous banter and knee jerk leftism won't change.........think about how little creedence you give my post(s).........that is much more than I give the whiners on Meet the Press...............:D

[Secretariat]

So what? I can complain bitterly about tons of stuff and it doesn't make it true? I can demand that you and Stinky resign from the DNC Chowder head hall of fame and it won't mean a damn thing. You will continue to whittle away at the bandwidth which is off topic, your superfluous banter and knee jerk leftism won't change.........think about how little creedence you give my post(s).........that is much more than I give the whiners on Meet the Press...............:D

What would motivate Brousard to lie? Are you saying he's lying about FEMA stopping the Walmart trucks of water?

I applaud Bush today by the way. Even when he takes responsiblity for federal failures. I guess Lefty and JR now you disagree with him;

"WASHINGTON - President Bush for the first time took responsibility Tuesday for federal government mistakes in dealing with Hurricane Katrina and suggested the calamity raised broader questions about the government's ability to handle both natural disasters and terror attacks.

"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at a joint White House news conference with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani.

"And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility. I want to know what went right and what went wrong," said Bush.

Facing sharp criticism and the lowest approval ratings of his presidency, Bush scheduled a speech to the nation from Louisiana for Thursday evening. It will be his fourth trip to the devastated Gulf Coast since the storm struck two weeks ago."

The people know, and Bush knows they know.

[JustRalph]

Sec, listen..........there are several good points being made about the aftermath of Katrina. Many are valid, some not at all. But the way the left has turned this into an all out effort against Bush has gone beyond the pale. The absolute caterwauling has overshadowed any points that at one time were valid. It has turned into white noise.

There is plenty of blame to go around. But one man does not deserve all of it. The sheer grandstanding that the Dems are participating in is completely unbecoming and not totally transparent to the American People. Everytime you go overboard with an issue such as this.........you lose your dignity and probably more and more voters..........god forbid I care about that.........but it is true.

It reminds me of the Air America Network..........just when I think they may have a valid point about something........they do some stupid little skit calling Rush Limbaugh a "Pig" and threaten to "go down to Florida for a pig roast" or they refer to Bush as a Drunk and Cocaine user........Bing! Change the dial................not to mention they just plain don't know how to perform a radio bit at all...........

Oh BTW, you mention Bush and his words accepting responsibility for failures at the federal level, I don't disagree with him. That is what the boss does.......the buck stops with him. But I have a feeling that the Repubs are going to love a "Katrina Committee" because it is going to make the LA Gov. and the N.O. Mayor look like Abbott and Costello were running the State. Bush knows what that committee report will look like. He can take the flak now.........because it is the Presidential thing to do. In the end he will be vindicated.........from what I read..........

[highnote]

"And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility. I want to know what went right and what went wrong," said Bush.


I will give Bush credit for taking responsibility.

I forget who said it, but they said something to the effect, "When Kennedy said 'I take responisibility for Bay of Pigs' that was the day Kennedy became a leader."

So what if Senator Benson might have said of Bush, "You're no Jack Kennedy."

By the JFK standard it has only taken Bush 5 years in office to learn how to lead. That's not too bad.

In my very humble and inexperienced political opinion, if Bush had said on 9/12 I take responsibility for what happened. I think the left would give him more credit. But all the left ever hears is that 9/11 was Clinton's fault.

We all know you can't blame one person. But the key point for me is that our leader steps up the microphone and says "I take responsibility."

[JustRalph]

By the JFK standard it has only taken Bush 5 years in office to learn how to lead. That's not too bad.

Yeah, sure, I guess the aftermath of 9-11 doesn't count huh? Whatever..........

[highnote]

Yeah, sure, I guess the aftermath of 9-11 doesn't count huh? Whatever..........

I'm still editing my last post as I read your reply.

[highnote]

Yeah, sure, I guess the aftermath of 9-11 doesn't count huh? Whatever..........

I never heard Bush say it was his fault 9/11 was not prevented. Maybe he did. But I never heard him say it.

[highnote]

My time to edit this message ran out, so I'm reposting it.

Yeah, sure, I guess the aftermath of 9-11 doesn't count huh? Whatever..........

Actually, you're right. I didn't get across clearly what I was trying to say.

In fact, maybe Kennedy and Bush (or at least their administrations) both deserve criticism because they were at fault -- Kennedy for bringing us so close to nuclear war and Bush's people not being able to prevent the terrorist attacks.

Bush's father was head of the CIA. Bush Sr. must have shared some information with his president son about the possibility of terrorist attacks. The terrorists had already tried to knock down the twin towers twice before for chrissakes. It's not like they didn't know it could happen.

Accepting the BLAME is what I was getting at more than accepting responsibility. Although, I don't ever remember Bush saying I accept responsibility for 9/11, either. I certainly didn't hear him say "It's my fault that we were not able to prevent 9/11."

[highnote]

Oh BTW, you mention Bush and his words accepting responsibility for failures at the federal level, I don't disagree with him. That is what the boss does.......the buck stops with him. But I have a feeling that the Repubs are going to love a "Katrina Committee" because it is going to make the LA Gov. and the N.O. Mayor look like Abbott and Costello were running the State. Bush knows what that committee report will look like. He can take the flak now.........because it is the Presidential thing to do. In the end he will be vindicated.........from what I read..........


If the local and state government officials are compared to the federal gov and officials it will look like Abbot and Costello because it is like comparing Grade 1 horses to 10K claimers. There is a reason people rise to the federal level. They have a ton of ability. Karl Rove is very bright. I may not be a Republican, but I can appreciate his political savvy.

Just like Geraldo and Rush. I can't stand either of them, but as show business people they have a loyal audience. Geraldo hotdogging in N.O. made we want to puke. I listened to Rush on the ride home from Saratoga one night and he pressed every button he could to get his listeners riled up about left wingers. I tried to be objective when I listened to him, but he was so superficial and base I had to laugh. It was all show business and designed for one thing -- to sell ads. Advertisers will spend money if they know they're gonna have listeners. So it didn't matter if his stuff was true or not, as long as he thought it would get his listeners riled up and keep them tuned in. I feel the same way about Geraldo - I just don't want to waste anymore space.

I'm sure the officials in Louisiana did the best they could. Just like I'm sure the feds did the best they could. We would all have liked to see them do a better job, but I do think they performed at the best of their abilities. The question should be, are there other people with more ability. If so, they should be elected. The difficulty is that it's hard to know if other people will respond any better until they get into those positions.

[Secretariat]

Sec, listen..........there are several good points being made about the aftermath of Katrina. Many are valid, some not at all. But the way the left has turned this into an all out effort against Bush has gone beyond the pale. The absolute caterwauling has overshadowed any points that at one time were valid. It has turned into white noise.

There is plenty of blame to go around. But one man does not deserve all of it. The sheer grandstanding that the Dems are participating in is completely unbecoming and not totally transparent to the American People. Everytime you go overboard with an issue such as this.........you lose your dignity and probably more and more voters..........god forbid I care about that.........but it is true.

Oh BTW, you mention Bush and his words accepting responsibility for failures at the federal level, I don't disagree with him. That is what the boss does.......the buck stops with him. But I have a feeling that the Repubs are going to love a "Katrina Committee" because it is going to make the LA Gov. and the N.O. Mayor look like Abbott and Costello were running the State. Bush knows what that committee report will look like. He can take the flak now.........because it is the Presidential thing to do. In the end he will be vindicated.........from what I read..........

I have stated all along a Commission is needed, but not one filled with Washington legislators. One filled with first responders, victims, FEMA reps, State reps, Local Reps, the Red Cross, the Natl. Guard, etc..

Look, I've said all along I did not blame Bush for the pre-Katrina evacuation. My focus has been the aftermath confusion and the needless loss of life, the hiring of incompetents at FEMA, the indifference to people's suffering, the slashing of funds for FEMA, and the ignoring of FEMA's own studies on a hurricane in New Orleans.

Without question those levees should have been fortified long ago to withstand a 5 - that's a bi-partisan federal and a local/state massive failure. Frankly, that's the first issue they better deal with, because who's to say we won't have another there next year. As a gambler things come in streaks it seems.
s th

[boxcar]

Look, I've said all along I did not blame Bush for the pre-Katrina evacuation. My focus has been the aftermath confusion and the needless loss of life, the hiring of incompetents at FEMA, the indifference to people's suffering, the slashing of funds for FEMA, and the ignoring of FEMA's own studies on a hurricane in New Orleans.

Then you need to redirect your focus to just who the primary responders are in the aftermath of a storm. You might want to peruse the NO Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan for starters. (I posted excerpts in my "It Easy to Confuse Libs..." thread.) Primary responsibility lies, again, at the state and local level. Read very carefully in this Plan just which agency is the lead agency.

You might also want to read the in-depth MSNBC report that talks about the horrendous condition of NO after the storm and why it was so difficult to implement relief and rescue operations. And I will add to this that if the city and state had done a far better evacuation job, then FEMA's job would have been made a lot easier.

Or you can go to these links:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9286534/page/1/

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

Box,

You need to read the National Response Plan from Homeland Security AND the Stafford Act.

[lsbets]

Sec, the first 48 hours rests primarily on local and state authorities. All operational documents reference 48 hours before an adequate federal response should be expected. So, in the immediate aftermath of a disaster, the first responders are the local folks.

[highnote]

Is,

I tend to agree with you about the first 48 hours -- it probably should be local authorities. I would think at least a small contingency of feds would be available to in the cas of massive disasters.

This was a good wake up call. There were failures on many fronts. A lot can be learned from this.

I think I wrote earlier that maybe we need a quasi military unit trained for just this level of catastrophe -- whether it's a manmade catastrophe or a natural disaster.

[lsbets]

swetyejohn,

No disagreement from me. The feds should have been quicker, they did not meet the 48 hour timeline and we need to know why. But, those who absolve the locals and states of any responsibility once the storm hit or who merely pay lipservice to the failures at those levels while only really scrutinizing the federal response do a severe injustice to the victims of this disaster.

[highnote]

This might be of interest to some people...
----------------------------

Friends,

Last week I closed my New York production office and sent my staff down to New Orleans to set up our own relief effort. I asked all of you to help me by sending food, materials and cash to the emergency relief center we helped set up on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain with the Veterans for Peace. We did this when the government was doing nothing and the Red Cross was still trying to get it together. Every day, every minute was critical. People were dying, poor people, black people, left like so much trash in the street. I wanted to find a way to get aid in there immediately.

I hooked up with the Vietnam veterans and Iraqi war vets (Veterans for Peace) who were organizing a guerilla, grass-roots relief effort. They were the same group that had set up Cindy Sheehan's camp in Crawford and now they had moved Camp Casey to Louisiana.

I have good news and horrible news to report. First, your response to my appeal letter was overwhelming. Within a few days, a half-million dollars was sent in through my website to fund our relief effort. This money was immediately used to buy generators, food, water, a mobile medical van, tents, satellite phones, etc.

Others of you began shipping supplies to our encampment. People in communities all over the country started organizing truck caravans to us in Louisiana. Twenty-two trucks from southern California alone have already arrived. A semi-truck from Chicago delivered ten tons of food. A group of friends in New Jersey got two 24 foot trucks, got their community to load them up with goods, and arrived in Covington tonight. Fifteen iMacs are inbound from California. One man gave us his pick-up truck and another donated truck is en route from Houston.

Your response to my appeal has been nothing short of miraculous. And it has saved many, many lives.

A number of you decided to just get in your cars and drive to our camp to volunteer to help. We now have had 150 volunteers here doing the work that needs to be done. Last night they unloaded twenty tons of food from a tractor trailer in under two hours. Each day more volunteers arrive. Everyone is sleeping on the ground or in tents. It is a remarkable sight. Thank you, all of you, for responding. I will never forget this outpouring of generosity to those forgotten by our own government.

My staff and the vets spend their 18-hour days delivering food and water throughout the city of New Orleans and the surrounding areas. What they have seen is appalling. I have asked them to post their daily diaries on my website (www.michaelmoore.com) along with accompanying photos and video so you can learn what is really going on. What the media is showing you is NOT the whole story. It is much, much worse and there is still little being done to bring help to those who need it.

Our group has visited many outlying towns and villages in Mississippi and Louisiana, places the Red Cross and FEMA haven't visited in over a week. Often our volunteers are the first relief any of these people have seen. They have no food, water or electricity. People die every day. There are no TV cameras recording this. They have started to report the spin and PR put out by the White House, the happy news that often isn't true ("Everyone gets 2,000 dollars!").

The truth is that there are dead bodies everywhere and no one is picking them up. My crew reports that in most areas there is no FEMA presence, and very little Red Cross. It's been over two weeks since the hurricane and there is simply not much being done. At this point, would you call this situation incompetence or a purposeful refusal to get real help down there?

That's why we decided not to wait. And we are so grateful to all of you who have joined us. The Veterans for Peace and my staff aren't leaving (and that's why we are hoping those of you who can't get to Covington will make it to the Veterans for Peace co-sponsored anti-war demonstration in DC on September 24: www.unitedforpeace.org.)

If you want to help, here's what we need in Covington right now:

Cleaning Supplies (glass cleaner, bleach, disinfectant, etc.)
Aspirin and other basic over the counter drugs.
Bottled Water
Canned Goods
Hygiene Supplies
Baby Supplies - Baby Food Formula, diapers #4, #5, Wipes, Pedialyte
Sterile Gloves
Batteries - All kinds, from AA to watch and hearing aid batteries.
Volunteers with trucks and cars
Self contained kitchens with generators, utensils, workers

Consider sending supplies in reusable containers. List the contents on the outside of the package so the folks in the warehouse can easily sort the items.

Clothes are not needed. If you go, keep in mind that you MUST be self-sufficient. Bring a tent and a sleeping bag. People are driving to Covington from across the country and often have extra room in their cars for you or for an extra box of supplies. For more information, go to the Veterans for Peace message board: www.vfproadtrips.org/katrina/.

Send supplies via UPS to:
Veterans for Peace
Omni Storage
74145 Hwy. 25
Covington LA

Thanks again for funding and supporting our relief efforts. It has been a bright spot in this otherwise shameful month.

Yours,
Michael Moore
mike@michaelmoore.com
www.michaelmoore.com

[Lefty]

MM just proved that the private sector can get more done any ol day than the govt. We conservatives have been saying that for years!

[Secretariat]

Sec, the first 48 hours rests primarily on local and state authorities. All operational documents reference 48 hours before an adequate federal response should be expected. So, in the immediate aftermath of a disaster, the first responders are the local folks.

Can you please show me anywhere in the National Response Plan or the Stafford Act that specifies that the federal government will not respond within 48 hours? That's absurd, passing the buck, and irresponsible.

[lsbets]

Do you understand what the word operational means? That means how things are actually implemented. I know you understand it, you simply don't care about it.

Like I said, absolving the local and state officials of their deserved share of the blame does a serious injustice to the victims of this disaster by attempting to turn it into a partisan political game and those people deserve better.

[Tom]

Did somebody say JFK was a leader?

Who did he lead?
He was, by the standards set forthon this board, nothing but a damn doper. He was just another Rush Limbaug. :eek:
He was a total failure in the Bay of Pigs and he was damned lucky in the Cuban blockade - it was a fluke that they were able to ignore one message and go back to reply to a previous one. Nikita wanted out and both of them saved face while backing out.

[Secretariat]

Do you understand what the word operational means? That means how things are actually implemented. I know you understand it, you simply don't care about it.

Like I said, absolving the local and state officials of their deserved share of the blame does a serious injustice to the victims of this disaster by attempting to turn it into a partisan political game and those people deserve better.

Thought not.

[lsbets]

Thought not? What are you two years old? PA, do you have an icon for sticking my tongue out?

[highnote]

Thought not? What are you two years old? PA, do you have an icon for sticking my tongue out?


:p

[lsbets]

Thanks swetyejohn, that's what happens when you are looking at the screen with one eye and watching a 3 year old and a 1 year old beat each other up with the other eye.

[Secretariat]

Here's the question Isbets I asked:

Can you please show me anywhere in the National Response Plan or the Stafford Act that specifies that the federal government will not respond within 48 hours?

The answer is simple. There is no 48 hour waiting period.

[lsbets]

Sec, unless you have created the transporters on Star Trek, it takes at least 48 hours to get large numbers of people and supplies anywhere. Its in all of the planning documents, and the Pam simulation said at least 48-60 hours.

[Secretariat]

Sec, unless you have created the transporters on Star Trek, it takes at least 48 hours to get large numbers of people and supplies anywhere. Its in all of the planning documents, and the Pam simulation said at least 48-60 hours.

Did it take 48 hours after 911? My God, imagine if it had. Are you saying in the event of a natural disaster, or a terrorist attack it is going to take the federal government two to two and a half days for response? Again, I don't see that spelled out in the NRP.

[highnote]

Did somebody say JFK was a leader?

Who did he lead?
He was, by the standards set forthon this board, nothing but a damn doper. He was just another Rush Limbaug. :eek:
He was a total failure in the Bay of Pigs and he was damned lucky in the Cuban blockade - it was a fluke that they were able to ignore one message and go back to reply to a previous one. Nikita wanted out and both of them saved face while backing out.


A quote from Wikpedia.com concerning the Bay of Pigs:

"The incident was a major embarrassment for Kennedy, but he took full responsibility for the debacle."

He knew he made a mistake and he took responsibility. This is the time when many people considered he became a leader.

Now, you can argue if he was a good leader or a bad leader or an average leader. I think the point is he stood up and took responsibility.

I don't ever recall Bush saying -- "I made a mistake. The planes should never have hit the Twin Towers on my watch." I don't recall Clinton saying that either when terrorists tried to blow them up.

However, I do give Clinton credit because he did not grow up in the privileged environments that Bush and Kennedy did. Clinton did it by himself. Kennedy and Bush had a lot of help. Actually, both Bushes. I give a lot of credit to Reagan, too.

I think Reagan was a decent leader. I don't think he was as bright as Clinton, but he did manage to get elected president.

I don't know Nixon's background very well. But I am certain he was very shrewd. Was he a good leader? Was Kennedy a good leader?

That depends on a how you define a lot of factors. Clearly, they were leaders. I just don't know how to quantify good or bad. I suppose a lot of it depends on your political persuasion. If you're a liberal Catholic you might think Kennedy was genius. If you're a conservative southern Baptist you might think Bush, Jr. is a genius.

Personally, I like Thomas Jefferson. I don't like his racism, but you have to consider the times he lived in. He thought American Indians were equal to whites and he was interested in their culture, but he thought blacks were inferior and he showed no interest in their language or culture. But as a leader, a negotiator, a statesman and a man of vision, he might be without equal.

[Secretariat]

Interesting article from AP today.

WASHINGTON - The federal official with the power to mobilize a massive federal response to Hurricane Katrina was Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, not the former FEMA chief who was relieved of his duties and resigned earlier this week, federal documents reviewed by Knight Ridder show.

Even before the storm struck the Gulf Coast, Chertoff could have ordered federal agencies into action without any request from state or local officials. Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown had only limited authority to do so until about 36 hours after the storm hit, when Chertoff designated him as the "principal federal official" in charge of the storm.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/krwashbureau/20050914/ts_krwashbureau/_wea_katrina_response_exclusive;_ylt=A86.I2iDzChDe qsAvgcbLisB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[lsbets]

Did it take 48 hours after 911? My God, imagine if it had. Are you saying in the event of a natural disaster, or a terrorist attack it is going to take the federal government two to two and a half days for response? Again, I don't see that spelled out in the NRP.

Going by memory here, who took charge in the immediate aftermath of 9/11? Umm, NYC - Guiliani, the NYPd, and the NYFD. It probably was 48 hours before any large federal presence was on sight. It definatly wasn't withink 24 hours. Try again.

[highnote]

Did it take 48 hours after 911? My God, imagine if it had. Are you saying in the event of a natural disaster, or a terrorist attack it is going to take the federal government two to two and a half days for response? Again, I don't see that spelled out in the NRP.

Yeah, but Sec, 9/11 had a pretty small footprint compared to the devastation wrought by Katrina. Plus everyone was pretty much dead except the 10,000 or so that got out of the towers and the Pentagon. Mass transit was still running on-time or near to schedule. [actually, that might not be quite true]

A million people did not have to evacuate. Many simply walked home. I had friends near ground zero and they were able to leave the island pretty easily and get back to Connecticut.


NYC and Wash are so densely populated that it was probably a lot easier getting help.

[Kreed]

#1 ... what the F does your nic mean? eXPLAIN, it sounds like swedish
leftOvers to me. #2 ... this is NOT the only time you've minimized 9/11.
Now, explain to me why you are annoyed at all the attention 9/11 gets?
Of course Katrina & Louisiana resonnate with you more deeply than NYC.
Are you more Gumbo than Prada? I really don't care about that but I am
concerned that you've gotten temperamental with 9/11 victims etc.
(Confession, I am also tired with all the wailing but its something that will
go on in spite of me too) .... so whats your beef Exactly?

[Lefty]

sec, 9-11 a terribly flawed analagy. What sq mileage did the WTC encompass? 20 miles or less vs a hundred thousand sq miles or so, in LA and Miss?

[Kreed]

I am really surprised at your post. In a way, it was the MOST liberal position
I thought possible. I will (cannot) ever not be numbed by 9/11. Was it because
I was there, not more than three blocks away when it all happened? Yeah,
I'm sure that explains ~95 percent of why I think 9/11 endures, yet ...
oh well, what's the issue here anyways, that someone Like You could ever
understand any topic aside from comps & free parking?

[highnote]

#1 ... what the F does your nic mean? eXPLAIN, it sounds like swedish
leftOvers to me. #2 ... this is NOT the only time you've minimized 9/11.
Now, explain to me why you are annoyed at all the attention 9/11 gets?
Of course Katrina & Louisiana resonnate with you more deeply than NYC.
Are you more Gumbo than Prada? I really don't care about that but I am
concerned that you've gotten temperamental with 9/11 victims etc.
(Confession, I am also tired with all the wailing but its something that will
go on in spite of me too) .... so whats your beef Exactly?


#1 Well, since you asked so nicely and with such respect... it is my name in reverse - John Swetye. It is the name BRIS assigned to me many years ago when I first signed up with them. So I use it for horseracing stuff. It's kind of like "legacy" software.

#2. You must have misinterpreted something I wrote because I have never ever ever ever ever ever in a billion years minimized 9/11.
I would truly like for you to show me one time I have. I don't think you can. Anyone who knows me and anyone who has read my posts knows that.

So I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one because 9/11 seems to strike a chord with you. But, let me also state in no uncertain terms that I have never belittled 9/11. And I would appreciate it if you never ever ever say it again. And when you search my posts and you can find no mention of me ever belittling 9/11 you can issue a public apology.

And I will hound you until you show me one time I belittled 9/11 or else issue an apology. As far as I'm concerned this is libelous and slanderous.

Respectfully,

John Swetye

[Secretariat]

sec, 9-11 a terribly flawed analagy. What sq mileage did the WTC encompass? 20 miles or less vs a hundred thousand sq miles or so, in LA and Miss?

Lefty, getting FEMA into New Orleans should have been as easy as NYC. You've obviously never treid to get out of or into NYC during rush hour. In fact FEMA told First Responders to stand down. There was a ship in the Gulf which was waiting to be told to go in. The call didn't come. The Senate voted down today the need for a Katrina Commission.

No hurricane I can remember ever took this long. Andrew took a bit, but nothing like this.

Just a question. What do you think should happen Lefty? Just ignore it. Let it go. Move on no questions asked. Or just let GW handle his own oversight? I am curious Lefty what you think should be done to honestly get some answers. Who functions as tribunal, or is there no tribunal? Rush?

[Lefty]

kreed, you are prone to saying silly things without explanation. What was liberal about my post. I was just explaining the logistics of 9-11 as related to LA.
Your insult at the end was expected though.

[lsbets]

No hurricane I can remember ever took this long. Andrew took a bit, but nothing like this.



Actually Andrew took longer. I'm not sure if it was a day or two days, but a large federal response took longer with Andrew.

I think Lefty's point was that land wise 9/11 affected a relativly small area of a city, while Katrina affected an area larger than most countries.

[Lefty]

sec, I think you're a bit foolish if you think 100,000 miles just as easy to cover as 20 or so. In NY, The mayor and the Gov took charge. The mayor and gov of LA dragged their feet and didn't use their own evac plan. But you're determined to blame this on the pres and the pres alone. But you libs are failing, and it won't happen. Keep on your merry-go-round if you must but i'm tire of explaining things over and over.

[Secretariat]

Actually Andrew took longer. I'm not sure if it was a day or two days, but a large federal response took longer with Andrew.


I apologize on Hurricane Andrew, you’re correct Isbets. The federal response to Andrew was highly criticized, and hearings were held in Congress which led the GAO to release a report to prevent it from ever occurring again.

J. Dexter Peach, a GAO official, testified before a Senate congressional committee in May 1993 about the Andrew response problems.

“In July 1993, the GAO released a report titled, "Disaster Management: Improving the Nation's Response to Catastrophic Disasters."

"The nation's management of catastrophic disasters was intensely criticized after Hurricane Andrew leveled much of South Florida and Hurricane Iniki destroyed much of the Hawaiian island of Kauai in 1992," the GAO wrote.
"Prior to these storms, other major disasters, such as Hurricane Hugo and the Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989, also generated intense criticism of the federal response effort."

It added that "catastrophic disasters overwhelm the ability of state, local and voluntary agencies to adequately provide victims with essential services, such as food and water" within a day after the storm has hit. “

“….it is essential to recognize that the magnitude of certain disasters such as Hurricane Andrew, will quickly outstrip the capacity of all but the federal government to respond in the critical first 12 to 24 hours with life-sustaining mass care."

Peach told the committee that if the federal government "did not recognize the extraordinary demands a catastrophic disaster places on all levels of government and built that recognition into appropriate legislative authority, planning exercises, operational procedures, and response strategies" then it "ran the risk of far greater loss of life" than seen in Hurricanes Andrew and Iniki.

Presidential leadership and an immediate, massive response to a catastrophic disaster are key elements in a successful effort to meeting victims' immediate, life-sustaining needs," the GAO wrote. “

Looks like we’ve been down this road before. Those who fail to learn from the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.

[boxcar]

Box,

You need to read the National Response Plan from Homeland Security AND the Stafford Act.

So, you're telling us that these documents state that the FEDs are the primary reponders? That FEMA is the "lead agency"?

So I guess the people in NO who wrote the NO Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan didn't know what they were talking about? They got it all wrong? Their Plan shoudl have said that FEMA is the "lead agency"? Is this more evidence that inmates are running the asylum in NO?

Quote me chapter and verse from one of these documents that says that FEMA is the primary responder. Quote where it says that FEMA is the lead agency.

Boxcar

[highnote]

Now, explain to me why you are annoyed at all the attention 9/11 gets?

Of course Katrina & Louisiana resonnate with you more deeply than NYC.

Are you more Gumbo than Prada?

.... so whats your beef Exactly?


I just realized I was so taken aback by your asinine insinuations about me belittling 9/11 that I forgot to answer your other questions. So I will take them one at a time so you can print out my responses and paste them on your wall by your computer so that next time you make an accusation about me you will have my words right in front of you for reference in black and white.

You asked, "Why am I annoyed at all the attention 9/11 gets?"
My reply, "I'm not." I'm on Michael Moore's mailing list for chrissakes. I've seen all his movies and read some of his books. I choose to read about 9/11 whenever it is featured on the Yahoo news links. If there was 10 times as many column inches devoted to 9/11 it would not be enough.

You wrote, "Of course Katrina & Louisiana resonnate with you more deeply than NYC."

How far up your ass did you have to reach to come up with this one? You have no clue what you're talking about. You don't know how I feel. Besides how can you even compare the pain felt from NO with the pain felt from 9/11? There are not words in the English language to describe the sadness I feel for the victims of those tragedies. Everytime I think about those poor people jumping out of the twin towers I want to cry. I wish I had the power to be an angel and scoop them up and bring them to safety. I would gladly give up my own life to bring back any of the school children who were at the Windows of the World when the towers collapsed.

Who the hell are you to even think you know what I feel.

You wrote, "Are you more Gumbo than Prada? "

I have no clue what you are talking about.

Finally, you wrote, ".... so whats your beef Exactly?"

That depends. I have no idea what you are refering to when you ask, ".... so whats your beef Exactly?" Are you asking what my beef is with the N.O. response? Are you asking what my beef is with the NYC response? Are you asking what my beef is with the liberal or conservative response? But my response can wait. You've got plenty of research to do to show me a single comment I made about 9/11 that was belittling. This should keep you busy for a long time because you will never find one.

[boxcar]

Lefty, getting FEMA into New Orleans should have been as easy as NYC. You've obviously never treid to get out of or into NYC during rush hour. In fact FEMA told First Responders to stand down. There was a ship in the Gulf which was waiting to be told to go in. The call didn't come. The Senate voted down today the need for a Katrina Commission.

No hurricane I can remember ever took this long. Andrew took a bit, but nothing like this.

Just a question. What do you think should happen Lefty? Just ignore it. Let it go. Move on no questions asked. Or just let GW handle his own oversight? I am curious Lefty what you think should be done to honestly get some answers. Who functions as tribunal, or is there no tribunal? Rush?

You're in classic denial! Here again are two exerpts from the MSNBC report:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9286534/page/5/

This was the worst of the worst-case scenarios. New Orleans is a soup bowl of a city, most of it well below sea level; everyone knew a serious crevasse could fill it with 20 feet of water. [b]Even the gloomy Hurricane Pam drill had optimistically assumed the levees would hold, but they were designed to withstand only a Category 3 storm, and Katrina created at least five breaches at three locations. Now the waters were rising.

And no one on the ground seemed to know it.

QUOTE
But now the power was out, roads were unnavigable, and communication was practically nonexistent; even Nagin's aides had to "loot" an Office Depot for equipment to install Internet phone service. Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau, the top National Guard official in Louisiana, found his New Orleans barracks under 20 feet of water; vehicles were washed out, and troops had to take refuge upstairs.

On 9-11 in NYC, the power was not out, communication was working fine and New Yorkers know how to get out of the way of emergency vehichles even during rush hour. There's really no comparison between NY on 9-11 and NO on 8/29 & 8/30.

You seem to forget how people on this forum were callling for (no...demanding) that the FEDS do air drops of water and supplies because things on the ground were so bad.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

You've got plenty of research to do to show me a single comment I made about 9/11 that was belittling. This should keep you busy for a long time because you will never find one.


If there was an applause icon, I'd be using it 100x right now. This was one of the best 2-part rebuttals to anything Kreed has ever written....I believe you knocked him out with this one. There's no way he'll be able to come back from this....I predict we may never see him again (is there a "hope and pray" icon as well)?

"More Gumbo than Prada....." What a DOPE!

[Secretariat]

So, you're telling us that these documents state that the FEDs are the primary reponders? That FEMA is the "lead agency"?

...

Quote me chapter and verse from one of these documents that says that FEMA is the primary responder. Quote where it says that FEMA is the lead agency.

Boxcar

Well, I and others have done that over and over. Simply go to the Homeland Security webpage and read for yourself.

But to simplify things.

Page 7 of this thread has a wonderful link by HCap on the National Response Plan.

Here's a little:

If you begin with Page 195 – Title V – Emergency Preparedness and Response and read Sec. 502(a) covers major disasters and other emergencies and then go onto Sec. 503(a) “managing such response”

I’ve also included an excerpt from The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act below (42. U.S.C. 5121).

Section 5192. Sec. 502 - Federal Emergency Assistance

Specified:

“In any emergency , the President may:

(1) direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities, and the resources granted to it under Federal Law … in support of State, and local emergency assistance efforts to save lives, protect property and public health and safety and LESSEN or AVERT the THREAT of a catastrophe.

(2) coordinate ALL disaster relief assitance (including voluntary assistance)provided by Federal agencies and State and local governments

….

Now, the Stafford Act:

Check out the Stafford Act, FEMA's guiding legislation on disasters which specifically places the Red Cross outside the limits of a mandated Federal response:

In order to effectuate the purposes of this Act, the Federal coordinating officer, within the affected area, shall--

1. make an initial appraisal of the types of relief most urgently needed;
2. establish such field offices as he deems necessary and as are authorized by the President;
3. coordinate the administration of relief, including activities of the State and local governments, the American National Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief or disaster assistance organizations, which agree to operate under his advice or direction, except that nothing contained in this Act shall limit or in any way affect the responsibilities of the American National Red Cross under the Act of January 5, 1905, as amended (33 Stat. 599) [36 U.S.C. §§ 1 et seq.]; and;
4. take such other action, consistent with authority delegated to him by the President, and consistent with the provisions of this Act, as he may deem necessary to assist local citizens and public officials in promptly obtaining assistance to which they are entitled.

Sorry PA, hate to repost. I know your bandwidth issue, but Boxcar wanted some of the exact language of the NRP and Stafford Act.

Almost forgot the FEMA mission from their own site:

FEMA Mission
DISASTER. It strikes anytime, anywhere. It takes many forms -- a hurricane, an earthquake, a tornado, a flood, a fire or a hazardous spill, an act of nature or an act of terrorism. It builds over days or weeks, or hits suddenly, without warning. Every year, millions of Americans face disaster, and its terrifying consequences.

On March 1, 2003, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration.

[lsbets]

I see nothing about FEMA providing security or law enforcement functions, or taking the lead in securing the area. Am I missing something Sec, because you would have us believe that fallas uunder FEMA, yet your quotes show nothing of the sort.

[Kreed]

To me, that word doesnt mean "to belittle" or "to ridicule" --- and I did NOT
imply that you, John, would ever think that way. But you did say in the past
that 3K killed on 9/11 is over-shadowed by the 4K (each year) who die of
heart disease and cancer. I thought that post (as an example) was lacking
nuance.

[Lefty]

And the latest is: AMtrak offered the Mayor hundreds of seats the sat before Katrina but he turned em dn. Of course he denies it, moved to Dallas and takes no responsibility whatsoever. Typical! But I know you're not interested sec, cause it doesn't smear Bush.

[Tom]

Be fair to FEMA...they are only failing in things they are supposed to do! :D

[highnote]

To me, that word doesnt mean "to belittle" or "to ridicule" --- and I did NOT
imply that you, John, would ever think that way. But you did say in the past
that 3K killed on 9/11 is over-shadowed by the 4K (each year) who die of
heart disease and cancer. I thought that post (as an example) was lacking
nuance.

Here is my first reply to your post:

#2. You must have misinterpreted something I wrote because I have never ever ever ever ever ever in a billion years minimized 9/11.

All right if you want to be technical, I substituted the word "belittle" for "minimize" later in my reply. As Steve Martin used to say... "Well excuuuuuuuuse me."

But now that you bring it up... Since 9/11 how many more thousands have died of heart disease and cancer? On pure numbers, yes, heart disease and cancer deaths overshadow the 3K killed on 9/11. And you think that I tried to minimize 9/11 with that fact. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I was trying to raise awareness that it is possible that thousands of deaths every year by heart diseases and cancer can be prevented -- or better yet, minimized?

I think you misinterpreted my post. What I posted was a fact. It's up to you how you let that fact affect you. You chose to focus on the 9/11 part of the post. Tomorrow, if you have a heart attack or are diagnosed with cancer your focus will shift rather abruptly and primarily to heart disease or cancer. And when you are hanging on the edge of the toilet, bald, puking your guts out from the chemo, and tumors are eating your insides out, 9/11 probably won't even be an entry in your registry. I suggest you go back and read the rest of my replies to that particular post before you falsely accuse me of minimizing 9/11.

More Gumbo than Prada. It took me awhile... but yes... I am more like a nourishing meal an than overpriced status symbol.

As far as lacking nuance. I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing -- I ain't trying to write the great American novel, here.

In future posts, I will try to keep in mind that there are some readers who are... more sensitive towards and more desirous of... a more delicate nuance of style.

You know, like, more Crawfish than Lobster, more Dixieland than Harlem, more Bolden than Basie, more Jazz than Rap, more Maravich than Reed, more Jackass than Asshole. etc. etc. etc.

[Lefty]

Here you are:
"I really should have called for the military," Blanco said, while chatting with her press secretary in between TV interviews. "I really should have started that in the first call."

Unbeknownst to Blanco, her bombshell acknowledgment was recorded on a network satellite feed, and by Tuesday the clip was getting wide exposure in Louisiana news broadcasts.

In the early days of the Katrina crisis, disaster management experts repeatedly blamed the failure to send in the National Guard for the city's descent into chaos.

Most observers blamed the White House for the blunder - a misconception that was thoroughly dispelled by the governor's inadvertent confession.
Some say Blanco's blooper was responsible for the abrupt change of tone in her speech Wednesday night to the Louisiana legislature.

Where earlier she and her aides had openly blamed the Bush administration for bungling Katrina rescue efforts, Blanco announced: "The buck stops here, and as your governor, I take full responsibility."

Just as surprising were Blanco's words of praise for the White House: "I want the people of Louisiana to know that we have a friend and a partner in President George W. Bush. I thank you, Mr. President."

This came from a Newsmax news alert, guys.

Editor's Note:

[twindouble]

Why is it taking so long to get a sufficient number of National Guard troops in New Orleans to restore order? It's been DAYS since Katrina left town.

Is this the best response we can muster? What kind of message does this send to the rest of the world about our state of homeland readiness in times of crisis?

Again, I'm not looking to turn this into another Bush bashing thread. But I would like to find some good reasons as to why we can't seem to get sufficient troops into the city by now.


I have a different perspective on the state of our readyness and ability to respond to such a disaster. 9-11 should in everyones mind paint a clear picture as to how inept these corrupt government bureaucracies are from top to bottom on every level. Including the erosion of our social, moral and political fabric for the last 65 years. Who in their right mind at any time would feel secure when basic human fairness and truth is practically non-existant in every facet of our existance. That pretty much sums it up for me.

T.D.

[JustRalph]

I have a different perspective on the state of our readyness and ability to respond to such a disaster. 9-11 should in everyones mind paint a clear picture as to how inept these corrupt government bureaucracies are from top to bottom on every level. Including the erosion of our social, moral and political fabric for the last 65 years. Who in their right mind at any time would feel secure when basic human fairness and truth is practically non-existant in every facet of our existance. That pretty much sums it up for me. T.D.

Great Post! If you are going to rely on the government for anything, from local potholes to disaster response, you are a fool!

[ljb]

Great Post! If you are going to rely on the government for anything, from local potholes to disaster response, you are a fool!
So then are you suggesting we do away with government?

[DJofSD]

ljb, do you know what the definition of the word limited is?

DJofSD

[ljb]

ljb, do you know what the definition of the word limited is?


DJofSD
The point, edge, or line beyond which something cannot or may not proceed.
And your point is ?

[Tom]

ljb, do you know what the definition of the word limited is?

DJofSD


He IS the definition of the word limited! :D

[highnote]

He IS the definition of the word limited! :D

Would you define IS please?

[JustRalph]

So then are you suggesting we do away with government?

nope, just slash the hell out of it. Basic services only. If I was made governor tomorrow, it would be a slash fest.............

[highnote]

nope, just slash the hell out of it. Basic services only. If I was made governor tomorrow, it would be a slash fest.............

If you were made governor, would you report all your free golf outings? :D


From CNN:

Ohio governor fined $4,000 for ethics violations
Taft pleads no contest

Thursday, August 18, 2005; Posted: 1:47 p.m. EDT (17:47 GMT)

Bob Taft
Ohio
William Howard Taft
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- Gov. Bob Taft became the first Ohio governor found guilty of a crime Thursday as he pleaded no contest to charges that he broke state ethics law by failing to report golf outings and other gifts.

[boxcar]

Here you are:
"I really should have called for the military," Blanco said, while chatting with her press secretary in between TV interviews. "I really should have started that in the first call."

How refreshing. BlancLook is on the same page as I am! She, too, realizes (of course now when it's too late) that she really needed the Feds to bail her out (bad pun intended), but because she didn't want to be perceived as week-kneed, incompetent female DemRat deeply in need of help from a male Republican, she stubbornly refused to relinquish her power in the state.

I hope the people who elected her are happy with their choice.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Ralph, vote for OJ....nobody can slash like he can! :rolleyes:

[DJofSD]

The point of the question is this: government in any form at any level was never intended nor can it ever be the be all, end all, do all. But that doesn't stop some quarters from attempting to make it so. Those that attempt to make government more than it can be do not recognize those limitations. In a sense they're delusional.

I believe as an individual living in the United States, I cede certain duties and responsibilities to authorities including government. Sometimes I get to choose, other times not. The problem is that government and those that derive power from it, choose to expand the scope of it's authority beyond what was intended. Those powers to expand goverment should be limited. And those powers should be limited when they deprive me of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

The government exists because I permit it to exist and not the other way around.

DJofSD

[ljb]

djofsd,
So then we agree. The disagreement may be in what we consider life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[ljb]

nope, just slash the hell out of it. Basic services only. If I was made governor tomorrow, it would be a slash fest.............
We could start by slashing the bridge to nowhere.
But in basic services would you include dredging rivers? Would you include subisdies to farmers ? Would you include educational funding ? And there are
many more. Can you be more specific on what you would slash ? Or you one who feels the government should provide police protection only ?

[highnote]

Here's a link to an interesting article about cronyism at FEMA and how that lead to the Katrina recovery disaster.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/3356117

Sept. 15, 2005, 7:55PM

EMERGENCY CRONYISM
Unskilled people need to be kept away from crisis management
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

A warm bond with the president is no disqualification for a responsible job. Notwithstanding his status as John F. Kennedy's brother, Robert F. Kennedy was an adequate attorney general. As a rule of thumb, though, American presidents should steer their less qualified cronies — the ones they admire for deep pockets, loyalty or friendship — to offices where they can do minimal harm. Ambassadorships to inconsequential nations are always popular.

.....GO TO THE LINK FOR THE FULL ARTICLE

[lsbets]

Here's a good start - the NEH and the NEA. Cut the dept of Education to eliminate the cost of the bureacracy and grant the money earmarked for actual education directly to the states.

[JustRalph]

The First slash I would make ..........


The Ohio Highway Patrol lays off 50% of its staff immediately.

The other 50% has to justify their existence in the next 60 days.............

Child support sections of the State Government go away in 90 days after a contract for a private organization to take over, is worked out.

These two things suck up so much money it is scary.............

Workmans Comp would be privatized in a year or less. ASAP..........you getting the picture ..........

[Tom]

Ralph....good rule for ALL highway crews - no more than two workers per shovel!About FEMA....how the hell did anyone as obvious unqualified as Brown ever get that job? The guy that appointed him needs to be fired as well. Brown was an incompetant boob, but the guy that appointed him is the root casue of this whole mess. Follow the lunacy to the top if you want to really get to the bottom of it all.

[Secretariat]

The government exists because I permit it to exist and not the other way around.

DJofSD

I didn't realize you alone "permitted" government to exist. Thought it was about us, the people, and when you have an us, you've people with differing ideas on what are those priorities. In fact your idea of the "pursuit of happiness" may be quite different than mine. And the limits of liberty means different things to different people. The Patriot Act, right to choose, euthanasia. Remember our founders allowed slavery which is the opposite of liberty. They were not Gods but made mistakes too, and if you read those accounts, there was a lot of differences about the role and power of govt.

Currently, in my view, our nation is becoming more and more like an Empire than a Republic, much like what happened in Rome. A hand picked judicial system, and a congress that rubber stamps the executives wishes with more and more bypassing of congress via executive order, something the constitution says little about. The executive often doesn't even wait for congressional process, but apppoints people in recess sessions.

[highnote]

Ralph....good rule for ALL highway crews - no more than two workers per shovel!About FEMA....how the hell did anyone as obvious unqualified as Brown ever get that job? The guy that appointed him needs to be fired as well. Brown was an incompetant boob, but the guy that appointed him is the root casue of this whole mess. Follow the lunacy to the top if you want to really get to the bottom of it all.


Tom,

See my post about three posts above yours. It's about cronyism in the White House. THat's how he got appointed.

js

[Tom]

I was being sarcastic. I know how this simpleton got that job and I know what simpleton put him there.

This is how Bush is going to make us safe and secure?

There is no excuse for this - and it shopuld be grounds for impeachment.
Gross negligence at the top cannot be tolerated.

[highnote]

I was being sarcastic. I know how this simpleton got that job and I know what simpleton put him there.

This is how Bush is going to make us safe and secure?

There is no excuse for this - and it shopuld be grounds for impeachment.
Gross negligence at the top cannot be tolerated.


Oops. I forgot --- you have a sense of humor. :blush:

BUt you're right. Qualified people have to be appointed to the Supreme Court -- so why not other important agencies? You would think that an agency like FEMA would be taken a little more seriously. At the time of the appointment either Bush or his advisors didn't know how important the post was, or they didn't care enough to take the time to study it. There was a breakdown somewhere along the chain of command. We can't have amatuers running these important agencies.

I think the Bushies were chomping on the bit so much to have the military see some action overseas that they ignored or gave too little attention to domestic problems. I thought Bush senior did the same thing and that's why we got into a recession.

I think the W has spent too much time on the golf course and focusing on Iraq. They seem to think domestic issues will take care of themselves.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with me. Hell, maybe I'm even wrong. But this is how I see it based on what I've observed.

[JustRalph]

Chicken; and they were hung out to dry by their local authorities and their neighbors. The character of the city revealed itself this week.......

The character of New Orleans has now revealed itself in Houston. Check this NBC report
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=233f8d59-3aa6-4d62-b87e-a2634b557aa6&f=00 (http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=233f8d59-3aa6-4d62-b87e-a2634b557aa6&f=00)

The Character of that city and the way it responded to the Storm is very interesting to say the least. Now that character is being absorbed by Houston. I predicted it...........damn shame...........

[Secretariat]

Well, one more Bush lie comes to fruition. He adds nothing to new budget for Katrina. So much for his promise to help rebuild New Orleans. Nagin is now asking for foregin aid from other countries. Never thought I'd see the day the greatest superpower on earth has to ask other countries for help.

No New Katrina Aid in Bush Budget

By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 17 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration offered no new aid for Hurricane Katrina victims in the budget it released Monday, instead putting modest amounts of money into preparedness and response plans for future disasters

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060206/ap_on_go_pr_wh/budget_hurricanes

'''''''''''''''''

"You're doing a heckuva job, Brownie." - GW

[lsbets]

Mayor Nagin asked for foreign aid for the Chocolate Factory? I figured he could get royalties from the Willy Wonka movie .........

[JustRalph]

If you were Bush, would you provide anything to these idiots? Hell No! I don't blame him. After the way they acted, I am surprised Bush doesn't just shut down the aid all together. Let Nagin get it from Johnny Depp and the rest.

BTW, I notice Sec doesn't comment at all on the murderous rampage taking place in Houston? These people get what they deserve.............

[Tom]

Well, one more Bush lie comes to fruition. He adds nothing to new budget for Katrina. So much for his promise to help rebuild New Orleans. Nagin is now asking for foregin aid from other countries. Never thought I'd see the day the greatest superpower on earth has to ask other countries for help.

GW

We aren't asking. The Mayor of Chocolatetown is aksing.
Frankly NO is not worth rebuilding. It will only be a problem again, it will waste billions of dollars an a relatively few people. NO benefits hardly any American taxpayers. As a country, we should step in a assist them dispalced people fight the fgreed of the insurance companies trying to screw them, and offer some kind of relocation assisance, and even help build a new NO, (NNO?) ABOVE water.

[Secretariat]

We aren't asking. The Mayor of Chocolatetown is aksing.
Frankly NO is not worth rebuilding. It will only be a problem again, it will waste billions of dollars an a relatively few people. NO benefits hardly any American taxpayers. As a country, we should step in a assist them dispalced people fight the fgreed of the insurance companies trying to screw them, and offer some kind of relocation assisance, and even help build a new NO, (NNO?) ABOVE water.

Problem is Tom, GW promised to rebuild when it was politically helpful. Now that he has to put his money where his mouth is, he is proven to be a liar once again. Ironic that the day he attends the funeral of Coretta Scott King, FEMA is evicting victims of Katrina from hotels. The guy really knows how to time things. Talk about classless. I imagine Mrs. King would be appalled since she always was an advocate for the poor and displaced.

[JustRalph]

I imagine Mrs. King would be appalled since she always was an advocate for the poor and displaced.

She was a doormat for her husband and his cronies..............dig a little and you can read about it.

[Tom]

Problem is Tom, GW promised to rebuild when it was politically helpful. Now that he has to put his money where his mouth is, he is proven to be a liar once again. Ironic that the day he attends the funeral of Coretta Scott King, FEMA is evicting victims of Katrina from hotels. The guy really knows how to time things. Talk about classless. I imagine Mrs. King would be appalled since she always was an advocate for the poor and displaced.

Evicting?!?!?
How the heck long do you suggest MY tax dollars keep them there?
It is long past time EVERYONE down there made other arrangements. And, there was an ad - I saw it - that warned theses people they had to register or something to stay in the FREE rooms through February. THose out today obviously didn't do what they were supposed to do to stay.

And, you have read the budget? You know ther is no money in it for NO? You know this for a fact?
My bet is on that NOBODY had read the full budget text yet ( and probably never will). It was only delivered yesterday.
You know that the money is not coming from some account named something other than "MY PROMISED MONEY FOR NO"?

You know this?

[highnote]

She was a doormat for her husband and his cronies..............dig a little and you can read about it.

Oftentimes peoples personal lives don't equal their contributions to society. She may have been a doormat (I don't know that she was or wasn't), but that shouldn't diminish what she represented, what she stood for or what she accomplished.

We all know the U.S. has done things in it's history that are not honorable, but we still respect our Flag. It isn't perfect, but that shouldn't diminish what it stands for.

[chickenhead]

GW promised to rebuild when it was politically helpful. Now that he has to put his money where his mouth is, he is proven to be a liar once again.

Tom, here is an article that I think answers both your question and addresses Sec....

new AID in 2007 budget=very little
to date federal AID>$100 billion

$100 billion is a pretty good chunk of change.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/02/06/no_new_katrina_aid_in_bush_budget/

[lsbets]

Okay, so its no NEW money for Katrina, which just goes to show, once again, that Sec is full of shit. $100 Billion dollars! Holy Crap that's a ton of cash.

I saw an interview with a woman who was getting thrown out of a hotel. I guess we were supposed to feel sorry for her, but my wife kept saying to the TV "Why haven't you got off your ass and bothered looking for a job?"

I'm sorry - Katrina sucked for everyone involved. So did every other hurricane to ever hit anywhere else in this country. But never before have I seen a group of people bitch and moan that they are entitled to everything forever because of a storm. You don't hear the people of Florida doing it, and you don't hear the people of MS doing it with this storm. You hear the Mayor of NO and the Senator from LA doing it. The sympathy has run out. You get friggin signing bonuses at McDonald's in NO now. Why? They can't find anyone to work, everyone just want their friggin hand out. Cut the damned umbilical cord and start taking care of yourselves! I didn't see FEMA handing out gift cards to folks in Texas and Oklahoma when we had our wildfires last month, and whole towns were wiped out. $100 Billion dollars is enough - stop bitching and start doing something. :mad:

[GaryG]

The last I heard there were plenty of Hispanics ready to come and rebuild NOLA. Haven't heard anything to the contrary so assume that is still happening. Look at the tsunami victims in Asia....they went right to work to rebuild the best they could without waiting for handouts which probably weren't coming anyway. I wouldn't mind some good chilaquiles in the French Quarter. :cool:

[Lefty]

Unfortunately, you help people over a rough spot and some expect the help to continue forever.

[Secretariat]

She was a doormat for her husband and his cronies..............dig a little and you can read about it.

Certainly now what GW was saying at her funeral or was he lying about that as well.

[Secretariat]

Okay, so its no NEW money for Katrina, which just goes to show, once again, that Sec is full of shit. $100 Billion dollars! Holy Crap that's a ton of cash.

I saw an interview with a woman who was getting thrown out of a hotel. I guess we were supposed to feel sorry for her, but my wife kept saying to the TV "Why haven't you got off your ass and bothered looking for a job?"

I'm sorry - Katrina sucked for everyone involved. So did every other hurricane to ever hit anywhere else in this country. But never before have I seen a group of people bitch and moan that they are entitled to everything forever because of a storm. You don't hear the people of Florida doing it, and you don't hear the people of MS doing it with this storm. You hear the Mayor of NO and the Senator from LA doing it. The sympathy has run out. You get friggin signing bonuses at McDonald's in NO now. Why? They can't find anyone to work, everyone just want their friggin hand out. Cut the damned umbilical cord and start taking care of yourselves! I didn't see FEMA handing out gift cards to folks in Texas and Oklahoma when we had our wildfires last month, and whole towns were wiped out. $100 Billion dollars is enough - stop bitching and start doing something. :mad:

GW has stated "whatever it takes" so often, but I guess he forgets his promises once again. We're spending half a trillion in Iraq, but we can't on our own citizens. The reason McDonalds is offering 10.00/hr is because people can't go back to nothingness. This is the destruction of an American City that is "unprecedented" as GW has stated. Yet he has no problem with the rebuiling of frigging Baghdad.

The bottom line is the man has lied once again. He stood on national television and promised to rebuild that city. Maybe you disagree with that statement, and don't think we should rebuild New Orleans, but "HE" MADE THAT PROMISE only to renege once again. Read my lips as his daddy said. 100 billion? Yeah, sounds like a lot for BOTH Katrina and Rita. Have any of you looked at the estimated costs for rebuilding NO and the Miss Coast and Rita's effects on southern Florida. 100 billion doesn't come close. And Tom, yes, being thrown out is being evicted. As to McDonalds jobs, they won't be able to fill those jobs because most poor people need a home to live in before they go to work in a job for 10.00 an hour. Maybe McDonalds could set up some tent cities so people can move back. It's more than FEMA did initially.

There's no room in the budget for Katrina, BUT there is for a tax cut for millionaires. Some kind of values huh? There is a a 13% increase in the Defense budget (which btw does NOT include Iraq and Afghansitan costs in the budget), and there isn't room for the elderly, the poor or college students. But there is room for another record breaking deficit.

This is becoming ludicrous. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Now look, if GW had stated that we cannot sustain rebuildng NO, we'll help people relocate. Here's money to get started somewhere else. I would have respected that, but instead he lied to them. It's just his way. One more on his long laundry list. You may not like it, but that's what GW promised and now he's reneged. Nothing new.

.........................

"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires-a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

---One more from GW

[lsbets]

Sec - that rant of yours has to be one of the funniest pieces of non-sense I have ever seen. Thanks for the laugh. Let us know when you have tomorrow's talking points. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[JustRalph]

Certainly now what GW was saying at her funeral or was he lying about that as well.

yep, he was full of shit. Many people were pointing that out on talk radio today. He was politicking..........that's what Presidents do..............

Dr. King and his band had several skeletons in their closets..........and their wives put up with it.........like they had a choice?

[JustRalph]

Sec, I could see you digging your obtuse ass into your chair while you were typing that last post...........getting hot in here?

Bush has always qualified his statements about rebuilding with stipulations about "good planning" and such as a prerequisite. After the way the principals in N.O. went after Bush and the rest of the government, can you actually say you are surprised that some in the Admin are sitting on their hands when it comes to Katrina? If you are surprised...........you are a fool..............you know what they say, what goes around...........comes around..............

[Bobby]

sec, bush doesn't care about NO or the Gulf Coast. To him, it's just a bunch of "******" down there.

[lsbets]

Bobby, could you please show me an example of when Bush said that? I would even settle for him calling it a chocolate city. When you guys have nothing, you just make shit up, its actually amusing.

[chickenhead]

Have any of you looked at the estimated costs for rebuilding NO and the Miss Coast and Rita's effects on southern Florida. 100 billion doesn't come close.

I have not seen the estimated costs, what are they?

[schweitz]

Does anybody see the sense in rebuilding if the levees are not upgraded?

And what exactly are they going to rebuild?

Estimates have been that 50 to 60 thousand people are not going to move back.

And another thought---I believe Nagin is serving his last term as mayor.

[GaryG]

sec, bush doesn't care about NO or the Gulf Coast. To him, it's just a bunch of "****" down there.If Bush said that in public or even private it would go down as one of the quotes for the ages. Every schookid 50 years from now would know it just like "I am not a crook" and Carter lusting in his heart. :lol:

[JustRalph]

sec, bush doesn't care about NO or the Gulf Coast. To him, it's just a bunch of "*******" down there.

Classy Bobby.............

[Secretariat]

I have not seen the estimated costs, what are they?

I looked at a conservative business site to get a perspective. This was in the aftermath of the storm. Some estimates have gone as high as 300 billion. Now GW added the costs of Rita as well into the costs. So even by conservative estimates GW has failed to fund even half of the estimated costs and has budgeted nothing additionally.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep2005/nf20050913_8975_db082.htm

A Second Look at Katrina's Cost
It's becoming clear that the price is greater than first thought. However, disruptions to the oil supply remain the biggest economic risk

The damage done by Katrina to the U.S. economy is still unknown, but it's clearly more than first expected, with estimated costs now as high as $200 billion. The physical damage to the city of New Orleans and the surrounding Gulf Coast communities makes this the worst natural disaster in U.S. history.

'''''''''''''''''

Some GW comments:

Bush committed the federal government to covering "the great majority of the costs" of rebuilding critical infrastructure such as roads, bridges, schools and water systems wiped out by Hurricane Katrina.

"There is no way to imagine America without New Orleans, and this great city will rise again," the president said in remarks prepared for an address to the nation.

Rebuilding across the devastated region is expected to cost $200 billion or more in the near term. The final tab could approach the more than $300 billion spent thus far on U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The administration has promised to reimburse states for the costs incurred in housing hurricane evacuees. Texas alone has taken in an estimated 250,000 refugees from the flooding, an overwhelming majority of whom are believed to qualify for Medicaid.

''''''''''''''''''''''''

Any way you spin it, he has once again reneged on his promises. The you're doing a heckuva job Brownie can now be applied to GW as well.

It isn't a matter of whether to build NO or not (frankly, it is an issue). The issue is he committed to that task publicly and is now turning his back on it. But that's his general modus operandi. Rhetoric and bombast without paying for anything.

[lsbets]

$100 Billion is turning his back? You are so transparent its crazy.

[Bobby]

Bobby, could you please show me an example of when Bush said that? I would even settle for him calling it a chocolate city. When you guys have nothing, you just make shit up, its actually amusing.


What do you think he says? In crawford, when he wears his cowboy hat, boots, and spurs and drives his FORD truck, do you REALLY think he says hey look at those colored folks over there in the cotton field? Don't be so naive

[Bobby]

Its the only reason I can think of why the Gulf Coast region hasn't been helped like it should be.

[PaceAdvantage]

5 day suspension for Bobby.....guess you haven't been reading my posts Bobby...pay attention!

[lsbets]

What do you think he says? In crawford, when he wears his cowboy hat, boots, and spurs and drives his FORD truck, do you REALLY think he says hey look at those colored folks over there in the cotton field? Don't be so naive

Well let's see Booby - I live in Texas, in a rural area, I drive a truck, I wear boots almost every day, on occasion I wear a hat. I don't see any cotton fields near me, and having been around the Crawford area many times, I don't think there's any cotton fields there. Almost everyone I know drives a truck and wears boots, and the only two people I have heard use the "n" word recently are you and Suff. What do I really think? I think you're an idiot.

[PaceAdvantage]

Bobby, while you are on the shelf, read this:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/TOS_PrivacyStatement.html

[JustRalph]

What do you think he says? In crawford, when he wears his cowboy hat, boots, and spurs and drives his FORD truck, do you REALLY think he says hey look at those colored folks over there in the cotton field? Don't be so naive

hey, I drive a Ford Truck, I think I have a cowboy hat somewhere? Going to have to get some spurs...........then I can walk around using the "N" word! Yahoo! :bang:

[schweitz]

Well let's see Booby - I live in Texas, in a rural area, I drive a truck, I wear boots almost every day, on occasion I wear a hat. I don't see any cotton fields near me, and having been around the Crawford area many times, I don't think there's any cotton fields there. Almost everyone I know drives a truck and wears boots, and the only two people I have heard use the "n" word recently are you and Suff. What do I really think? I think you're an idiot.

Ditto!

[GaryG]

Well let's see Booby - I live in Texas, in a rural area, I drive a truck, I wear boots almost every day, on occasion I wear a hat. I don't see any cotton fields near me, and having been around the Crawford area many times, I don't think there's any cotton fields there. Almost everyone I know drives a truck and wears boots, and the only two people I have heard use the "n" word recently are you and Suff. What do I really think? I think you're an idiot.As one of the few southerners on this board let me add this: I also drive a truck, wear boots and usually a baseball cap. I live in the Appalachian foothills which is about as rural as you can get. That word is never used here. I'd like to sit on the front porch and sip a mint julep but it won't stop snowing.

[lsbets]

And Gary, I will take it from your last post, that you are also one of the few people who understands (because you said you were one of the few southerners) that living in Texas does not mean you're a southernor - it means you're a Texan!

[Tom]

I hear ya, ls...I live in western NY and have to keep telling people I am NOT a "New Yorker." People seem to think NYS is just one big city.

[lsbets]

I hear ya, ls...I live in western NY and have to keep telling people I am NOT a "New Yorker." People seem to think NYS is just one big city.

It isn't? :confused:

[GaryG]

And Gary, I will take it from your last post, that you are also one of the few people who understands (because you said you were one of the few southerners) that living in Texas does not mean you're a southernor - it means you're a Texan!Yes, for sure. To me there are 3 states that transcend region: California (shudder), Florida (bunch of transplanded yankees) and the Great State of Texas! Big Confederate cemetery near Bonham, my wife used to work at the VA there. Bonham also the home of Sam Rayburn and John Wesley Hardin, not necessarily in that order...:jump:

[chickenhead]

Don't be so quick to knock CA, we're a massive state -- we've got everything, including redneck cowboys in pickup trucks and boots.

[GaryG]

Don't be so quick to knock CA, we're a massive state -- we've got everything, including redneck cowboys in pickup trucks and boots.Yes, I almost ran afoul of some of them once in Oildale. Joint called The Blackboard.

[chickenhead]

Oildale.

Hometown of Merle Haggard :ThmbUp: