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PaceAdvantage
09-02-2005, 09:33 AM
Why is it taking so long to get a sufficient number of National Guard troops in New Orleans to restore order? It's been DAYS since Katrina left town.

Is this the best response we can muster? What kind of message does this send to the rest of the world about our state of homeland readiness in times of crisis?

Again, I'm not looking to turn this into another Bush bashing thread. But I would like to find some good reasons as to why we can't seem to get sufficient troops into the city by now.

JustRalph
09-02-2005, 09:48 AM
when roads are flooded, you have to fly in. When the chopper pilots refuse to fly in due to snipers you have to take boats. The boats were fired on. It also takes at least 2-4 days to ramp up a guard unit. I know that from experience.

chrisg
09-02-2005, 10:08 AM
I'm not disputing what Ralph says, but part of the problem may be their assessment of the situation:

President Bush: : "In our judgment, we view this storm as a temporary disruption that is being addressed by the government and by the private sector."


from: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/09/20050901-3.html

chickenhead
09-02-2005, 10:12 AM
Obviously, taking one look at what is going on there right now..and it is easy to be critical of just about everyone. The Feds are taking longer than we would like, but WTF happened with the first responders...the presence is/was certainly not being felt. The showing by the state and local government is miserable...people feel like they've been left out there to die...and they have. People are dying right now from lack of water. That is f'in unbelievable to me.

Homeland security has been dumping money all over the place...and to see this lack of effective response is pretty disgusting.

As for the Nat'l Guard, I'd be curious to know when the call when out, if they weren't on standby beforehand. I think that is a lesson to learn, when something like this is coming, and we suspect there will be a major disruption, they need to have the Nat'l Guard on standby, ready to go immediately Day 1.

JustRalph
09-02-2005, 11:12 AM
As for the Nat'l Guard, I'd be curious to know when the call when out, if they weren't on standby beforehand. I think that is a lesson to learn, when something like this is coming, and we suspect there will be a major disruption, they need to have the Nat'l Guard on standby, ready to go immediately Day 1.

That is not the way it works. The National Guard is under the control of the Governor. The Governor of LA didn't put them into motion until after the levy broke. That is what I am hearing on the news. It takes two days to ramp up the guard and sometimes more. The fact that you couldn't even drive in or out of town in the first three days stopped all assets from being deployed. The N.O. police department and fire department withdrew on day two after the levy broke. The Mayor ordered them back to the streets yesterday to stop the looting. We heard that on the news all day. What we didn't hear was, they opened the door to the jails and set the bad guys free. The Police refused to take on the looters. Several actually turned in their badges from what I heard from a reporter in N.O. This is a localized failure. More than anything. The Mayor and Police Chief should be indicted for something. The Governor should be thrown out of office. They have nothing left to govern anyway. We are talking about the most corrupt municipal organizations in the country. They make the Chicago pols and cops look like saints.

Light
09-02-2005, 11:17 AM
Yesterday JR and the other right wingers accused me of politicizing the tragedy like I was some heritic. Well guess what Bush defenders at any and all costs, it has become politicized. The mayor is seriously pissed with people dying in the streets,amidst feces and urine,people calling for help on TV etc. We don't need to hear any more lame excuses from JR or right wingers on this board as to why the most technologically advanced nation on the planet cannot save its own citizen. Oh yeah JR, we can deal with a nation full of snipers in Iraq but not a handful in NO. We can airlift tons of weapons to Iraq,but not a bottle of water to NO. Would you and the rest of the Bush zealots stop thinking of the safety of Bush's reputation and start considering the safety of the victims.

chickenhead
09-02-2005, 11:18 AM
I agree 100% Ralph, I think you as much as anyone knows the value of the 1st responders..and they simply weren't there. The good people of NO got hung out to dry, completely.

kenwoodallpromos
09-02-2005, 11:36 AM
In the United STATES it is the state and local official who do it first- but the Feds and statea authorities have lousy plans for mass disasters when access is not available by ground. This would be true in mass easrthquakes, tornadoes, or ectended and massive blizzard on the east coast.
We have no readiness for airdrops of critical items on a large scale. Flooding requires caution due to what may be under the suface like debris, hydrants, cars, etc.
On the surface it seems the overall management was concentrated on single item priorities- Hurricane then flooding and total exacuation then search and rescue then aiding those left.
Organization ande communication is always hard when there is not adequate specific contingency plans available.
What are the plans for the east coast in case of a terrible blizzard does anyone know?
The black caucuss are already talking racial discrimination and the mayor is pricipally blaming Bush. Ok, he's a lame duck. Piss him off at your own risk.

PaceAdvantage
09-02-2005, 11:40 AM
Yesterday JR and the other right wingers accused me of politicizing the tragedy like I was some heritic. Well guess what Bush defenders at any and all costs, it has become politicized. The mayor is seriously pissed with people dying in the streets,amidst feces and urine,people calling for help on TV etc. We don't need to hear any more lame excuses from JR or right wingers on this board as to why the most technologically advanced nation on the planet cannot save its own citizen. Oh yeah JR, we can deal with a nation full of snipers in Iraq but not a handful in NO. We can airlift tons of weapons to Iraq,but not a bottle of water to NO. Would you and the rest of the Bush zealots stop thinking of the safety of Bush's reputation and start considering the safety of the victims.

How about addressing the issues raised by JR. Why such a massive failure at the STATE and LOCAL level. The entire STATE was NOT affected by the hurricane. Where is the STATE presence?

No lame excuses. But tough questions EVERYONE must answer, not just the Federal Government.

STOP COMPARING THIS TRAGEDY TO IRAQ. IRAQ (whether you like to believe it or not) took a lot more than a week to plan and coordinate. Obviously, the powers that be in this case did not have that luxury.

lsbets
09-02-2005, 11:55 AM
PA, you started a thread to discuss the failure of the response. Everyone except for one poster did that. One decided it was another chance to rail about Iraq and Bush - big shocker. He doesn't give a crap about the response, why it failed, and how to fix the response in the future.

I've stated this in other threads - the failure started at the local level. The city of NO has known for a long, long time this would happen one day, and it is obvious they had not rehearsed how to respond. They failed. The police department utterly and totally failed. The NG is controlled at the state level unless they are federalized. JR is absolutely right - it takes 2-3 days to mobilize a unit. It shouldn't, but that's the nature of a beauracracy. The mayor is simply not a leader. When it came time to act he panicked. He needs to be fired. The governor moved up a notch in my book today when she said the NG would have the authority to shoot to kill. The looters are doing more than just stealing property. They are keeping people from getting the aid they need, and they need to be dealt with severely. In terms of the federal government pushing everyone aside and taking over, there is a little document called the Constitution and there are legalities that need to be followed in order to do so. I was glad to hear Bush say the response is unnacceptable this morning. He's right, it is. But he has to mobilize the effort. Unfortunatly, his visit will divert resources from doing the rasks neccessary to accomplish the relief mission, but could you imagine if he didn't go? I think all of the folks in charge on the ground would much rather he not be there, anyone who has ever been involved n a Presidential visit knows what a circus it is and how many resources it takes to support.

JustRalph
09-02-2005, 12:06 PM
I agree 100% Ralph, I think you as much as anyone knows the value of the 1st responders..and they simply weren't there. The good people of NO got hung out to dry, completely.

Chicken; and they were hung out to dry by their local authorities and their neighbors. The character of the city revealed itself this week......

Light, you are out of touch, uninformed and obviously a bitter Bush hater.

chickenhead
09-02-2005, 12:11 PM
I know that Ralph, that is the point I was making myself?

I think you're maybe reading a criticism of Bush into what I wrote...I've been talking the local and state level the whole time. :confused:

1st responders=police fire etc.

You said "that's not the way it works" regarding my criticism that the Nat'l Guard wasn't mobilized earlier...I didn't say why didn't Bush mobilize them, I said they should have been mobilized.

My commetns about homeland security money...is that that money goes to the local governments...the 1st repsponders...wtf have they been doing with it?

socantra
09-02-2005, 12:15 PM
I've been curious about the procedure in regard to the National Gaurd. All my life, I've heard the reports that the governor has called out or activated the National Gaurd during disasters. Quite often the governor of a state has put the Gaurd on alert before an approaching didaster

This time, the announcement of sending in the National Gaurd came from the Pentagon rather than the Louisiana or Mississippi governor. Why the change?

I find it hard to believe that it didn't occur to either governor or their staff that the Gaurd might be of some use. Why didn't they call them up?.

Has the procedure been changed because of 9-11; because of Iraq? I don't know. I kept listening for the callup of the Gaurd. When it finally came, it was from the Pentagon, not the governors.

They are now saying that the Gaurd operates under the authority of the governors, but do they no longer have the authority to call them up in the first place?

socantra...

Tor Ekman
09-02-2005, 12:22 PM
Just harken back to 9/11 - State and local bear sole responsibility for first response. NYS and NYC had emergency procedures in place, even though not in contemplation of the horros of 9/11, the procedures were a start and adaptation could occur on th fly. The flooding from Katrina complicated things tremendously, but there appears to have been no vitually no State and local plans of emergency procedures in place down in New Orleans and Louisiana. Complicating matters further, both the Gov and the Mayor seem way out of their depth for taking charge. You can't just wait for the Federal cavalry to arrive. After 9/11, state and local from ALL over the NY state and NJ/CT were rushed to the scene.

Steve 'StatMan'
09-02-2005, 12:28 PM
Using the Superdome and the Convention Center for a Category 1 hurricane, maybe. With a Catg. 4 or 5 coming and huge waves expected, it was seriously thought that the city would be flooded even if the pumps were working, the bowl of a city would be filled with water, power would likely be lost, and it'd be hard to evacuate the city. So, why put 20,000-30,000+ people inside buildings still in the under-sea-level bowl of the city?!

The city's and state's plan failed them! The time to bus people to Texas and the Astrodome, or anywhere at least a good 20-30 miles away from the under-sea-level bowl city was before the storm hit! Admittedly, easy to see now. But all they did was ball up all the remaining people (tourists, locals without cars, the poor, the homeless, the street gangs, etc.) under bigger, stronger rooves but still in a danger zone. What they needed was all their cities busses, (transit and school) to load people and take them out early. Now with nearly all roads impassable, its a slow way out, and after the suffering has hit.

ljb
09-02-2005, 01:04 PM
Two words come to mind. Incompetence and Ignorance . You can place the blame on state and local officials and on federal officials. Keep in mind your elected officials stayed on vacation for the first couple of days. Some may still be vacationing. On the federal level I can tell you our local national guard was just called to deploy yesterday?
There is a cliche from the service, sh*t flows downhill. So this will probably be blamed on a minimum wage FEMA clerk somewhere in Arlington Va. I guess you will all have to decide for yourselves where the final blame lies. I would urge you all to write your elected officials and suggest they hang their heads in shame for their slow response to this disaster.

Light
09-02-2005, 01:08 PM
How about addressing the issues raised by JR. Why such a massive failure at the STATE and LOCAL level. The entire STATE was NOT affected by the hurricane. Where is the STATE presence?

No lame excuses. But tough questions EVERYONE must answer, not just the Federal Government.

STOP COMPARING THIS TRAGEDY TO IRAQ. IRAQ (whether you like to believe it or not) took a lot more than a week to plan and coordinate. Obviously, the powers that be in this case did not have that luxury.

Hey Pa

Why don't you turn on your television. I ain't the only one criticizing the slow response of the government. FYI there is a direct connection with Iraq and NO. It's well known that 35% of the Louisiana national guard is in Iraq.If you have to import them from another state it takes time.That's why you have a national guard,not the military. National Guard=Immediate national emergency response. The lack of them was felt. O.K.

Another Iraq connection is the lack of $ for the NO corps of engineers. They recently requested $210 million to finish shoring up the levees and were denied that by the Bush Administration citing the war in Iraq. They broke. O.K.Now it will cost billions. O.K.

Once again you think I'm trying to capitolize on a tragedy for Bush bashing. Too stupid for words. I have enough ammo to bash Bush for a lifetime without NO. O.K. So back off with you ignorant comments that this has nothing to do with politics or Iraq. Even the whitehouse press secretary was questioned about this yesterday.O.K. Everyone knows this but righties on PA.

PaceAdvantage
09-02-2005, 01:15 PM
So that leaves 65% of the Louisiana National Guard right in Louisiana. How many troops is that? Were they called up by the state government and placed on ready status before the storm hit? If not, why not? This would have nothing to do with Bush. So what if 35% of the troops are in Iraq. What about all the rest? How many troops does 65% equate to?

When was the request made to shore up the levees?

Steve 'StatMan'
09-02-2005, 01:22 PM
If you place the National Guard inside of N.O. before the storm hits, then they would be stranded or killed like everyone else! Thats why they have to stay outside the storm area and then move in.

Secretariat
09-02-2005, 01:40 PM
Thankfully, despite the protestations from many posters here when I posted the effort has been too slow, the President himself has admitted his own failure. Congrats to him, and even to Newt for the ability to see the response has been poorly planned.

"The results are not acceptable," said Bush, who rarely admits failure.

The president's comments came after New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin lashed out at federal officials, telling a local radio station "they don't have a clue what's going on down here."

Even Republicans were criticizing Bush and his administration for the sluggish relief effort. "I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich."

Can't beleive I'm saying it, but well said Newt.

Looking at this article, a great deal of blame must be placed at FEMA preparedness espeically considering they simulated this exact type of event last year. THe guy in charge of FEMA shoudl be canned after this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_criticism_dc

lsbets
09-02-2005, 02:00 PM
THe height of humor - Light telling someone to back off for ignorant comments. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steve 'StatMan'
09-02-2005, 02:05 PM
We all know the results are unacceptable. But whether Bush was available by phone at the White House, or availble by phone in Texas didn't matter (where was he located during all 6 hurricanes that hit Florida, his own brother's state?) All the of the City, State and Fed's men and women failed on the Seven P's.

PaceAdvantage
09-02-2005, 02:16 PM
If you place the National Guard inside of N.O. before the storm hits, then they would be stranded or killed like everyone else! Thats why they have to stay outside the storm area and then move in.

Who said anything about placing them in the path of the storm? Obviously not...but perhaps in a neighboring state, where they could reach the hardest hit parts of N.O. within 24 hours? Is that asking too much?

schweitz
09-02-2005, 02:26 PM
the President himself has admitted his own failure.

"The results are not acceptable," said Bush, who rarely admits failure.


Sec--you are so predictable it's pathetic.

JustRalph
09-02-2005, 02:48 PM
Chicken.........we are on the same page. I was just reiterating my point. I agree with you also.

Sec, I didn't hear Bush say he failed. It is amazing what you guys read into a statement. I think the Cincy Reds are a crappy team.......... I must be a shitty judge of talent huh? or to take it to your extreme.........a crappy manager, even though I have no hand in managing the team.

Steve 'StatMan'
09-02-2005, 03:14 PM
Who said anything about placing them in the path of the storm? Obviously not...but perhaps in a neighboring state, where they could reach the hardest hit parts of N.O. within 24 hours? Is that asking too much?

Very reasonable request. I don't know if they were or weren't nearby, was expecting they would be. Don't know if road damage plus the levee breaks kept them out. We know a lot about what's going on inside NO because the reporters are in there. I haven't seen enough about what's happening at the staging areas. Lots of footage of shipments heading to the area, but what was happening locally that was keeping them out, or restricting their entry? I think we need info on that to fully understand the big 'Why'.

Secretariat
09-02-2005, 06:12 PM
Sec--you are so predictable it's pathetic.

Scweitz, JR,

Did you read the link, or just typically respond?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_criticism_dc

PaceAdvantage
09-02-2005, 06:29 PM
We know a lot about what's going on inside NO because the reporters are in there.

Which begs the question, if news teams can get in there with their equipment, why couldn't the NG?

JustRalph
09-02-2005, 08:43 PM
Which begs the question, if news teams can get in there with their equipment, why couldn't the NG?

they went in before the floods...........I heard an interview on radio today with a reporter. She said that they were staked out in hotels for two days before the hurricane hit.........the problem for them was getting out...........when they were supposed to change crews in day two..............I also heard that Brian Williams and some CBS types were flown in via helicopter

Tom
09-02-2005, 10:55 PM
Hey libs.....

Bush stationed HIMSELF inTexas - closer to the scene than DC.
Prepared, or what! :D

lsbets
09-02-2005, 10:57 PM
Tom, even if Bush stood there like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke (never mind, I won't touch that one) they would jump all over him.

Tom
09-02-2005, 11:04 PM
Bottom line, whatever the reason, the response has ben unacceptable.

You leave Americans on a roof for 65 days waiting for help.
Right, the focus must be containment, but when we got to the root cause phase, heads need to roll.
What did LA do with the billions of $$$ they got from the 9-11 find to strengthen homeland security?

Where are the satellite phones that should have been in use?
For a city living under sea level and next to a lake, they have a pretty pathetic contigency plan.

Why didn't the mayor, who has a lot to bitch about TODAY, have buses available to evacuate people last weekend, when it is known that 65% of the residents of NO DO NOT DRIVE!
Grandstanding is unbecoming.

The goveneor is the poster-boy (girl) for a loser - what a pathetic quitter she is - when you address the public during a disastor, you need to show strength - not resignation.

And the local cops.....a bunch of them need to be doing hard time for thier actions..One gunshot and they ran like the Columbine cops. No Dirty Harrys there, for sure.

Private citizens tried to get into the area in thier own boats to resue peoplme adn were turned away.

Rudy, wher are ya? They weren't paying attention when YOU took the stage.
To this day, any time I see Rudy G I get a warm feeling, and I wasn't even there.
LA was put to a test, and they failed miserably.
Maybe there is more to running a state that drunken binges.......

Light
09-03-2005, 12:17 AM
PaceAdvantage Asked:... So what if 35% of the troops are in Iraq. What about all the rest? How many troops does 65% equate to?

Quote from article below:"Mississippi National Guard, has a brigade of more than 4,000 troops in central Iraq. Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083002162.html



Pa asked:When was the request made to shore up the levees?


Quote from article below"In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness."


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=BUN20050831&articleId=894

boxcar
09-03-2005, 12:50 AM
PaceAdvantage Asked:... So what if 35% of the troops are in Iraq. What about all the rest? How many troops does 65% equate to?

Quote from article below:"Mississippi National Guard, has a brigade of more than 4,000 troops in central Iraq. Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad."

What does this non-answer have to do with PA's question? He didn't ask you how many MNG and LNG troops were in Iraq. He asked you to provide an explanation about those Guard troops that aren't in Iraq.

"Light", you may want to seriously consider turning yours on someday -- the sooner the better.

Boxcar

Light
09-03-2005, 02:32 AM
Do the math

boxcar
09-03-2005, 10:51 AM
Do the math

I'm not suprised at all that you want someone else to do what you're incapable of doing. Typical liberal: All bluster and wind. All heat but no light. All empty-headed party line rhetoric with no substance whatsoever.

Boxcar

Light
09-03-2005, 11:54 AM
I guess I'll have to spoon feed you and do the math for you. PA asked me "How many troops does 65% equate to?" I quoted from the article I cited that gives a broader perspective to his question that you probabably did not read "Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad." If 3000 is 35% then 65% = ....I'll let you fill in the answer,if you can. If you can't,go back to school.

ljb
09-03-2005, 12:12 PM
Light,
Take it easy on Box,
He is better at weird biblical quotes then math. Give him some time. :D :D :D

Achilles
09-03-2005, 12:18 PM
I have a friend living in Maine who was raised in Slidell LA and went to school in NO. Here's his take on the situation (speaking about some relatives of his who live there):

"Cousin Bobby - youngest of three cousins - is in Gretna, on the West Bank (Jefferson Parish). Three of his 4 kids live right around him & his wife Pat. They all skedaddled to the 4th, who lives in Baton Rouge, except for their RN daughter, who stayed on duty in thje WestJeffHospital.



Their house survived the storm, and may even survive the looters. The RN daughter, Kathy, is bone tired but OK - West Jeff is one of the few functioning hospitals.



The whole thing has been misfeasance, malfeasance, incompetence, and a leadership vacuum from way before the storm came. Nagin, the mayor, and Blanco, the Gov, should be shot for utter spinelessness. But then that's what comes of tolerating venal bloodsucking politicians for umpteen generations.



Check out www.nola.com (http://www.nola.com/), the Times-Picayune web site. They've never been noted for an instinct for the jugular - more like for the capillary - but the site has a lot of stuff not making the wire services."

I've checked out the website; there is some good info there.

ljb
09-03-2005, 12:48 PM
The whole thing has been misfeasance, malfeasance, incompetence, and a leadership vacuum from way before the storm came. Nagin, the mayor, and Blanco, the Gov, should be shot for utter spinelessness. But then that's what comes of tolerating venal bloodsucking politicians for umpteen generations.


Achilles,
Local and state governments have never been able to handle catastrophes such as this. The misfeasance, malfeasance, incompetence and leadership vacuum all come to rest on the federal governments shoulders.

chickenhead
09-03-2005, 01:01 PM
Local and state governments have never been able to handle catastrophes such as this. The misfeasance, malfeasance, incompetence and leadership vacuum all come to rest on the federal governments shoulders.

You presume to tell someone with a manyfold more intimate understanding of the local situation on the ground who and who not they should hold accountable? That takes a lot of ball and a lack of brains, ljb. You think you know better than whoever wrote that, whether the mayor and gov. provided leadership, before during or after the hurricane hit? You complain in another thread about the lack of police and fire service, and then say the local authorities mean nothing, and can do nothing? You are UTTERLY clueless.

Tom
09-03-2005, 01:08 PM
I think Ljb might have forgotten about 9-11 and the tremendously heroic and sustained efforts put out by LOCAL New Yorkers, probably the toughest bunch of people on the whole damned planet.
The fires weren't even out yet and the NY'ers were cleaning up.
If I ever decide to piss of somebdy, it sure has heck won't be a New Yorker!

lsbets
09-03-2005, 01:22 PM
Look at the difference in NYC on 9/11, and in MS during this storm. Any objective observer would have to say the difference between there and LA is the local leadership or lack thereof.

Steve 'StatMan'
09-03-2005, 01:42 PM
I guess I'll have to spoon feed you and do the math for you. PA asked me "How many troops does 65% equate to?" I quoted from the article I cited that gives a broader perspective to his question that you probabably did not read "Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad." If 3000 is 35% then 65% = ....I'll let you fill in the answer,if you can. If you can't,go back to school.

I think the point is that not only does LA have over 5,000 troops left, but there are tens of thousands of troops in other states than can and have been mobilized to come to LA, MS and AL. The country has plenty of protection and if not enough from LA were expected to be availalbe before the disaster struck, they should have been requested, mobilzed and sent. IL is among many states just sent several hundred yesterday. Whomever is in charge to coordinate and execute disaster plans should have know and made those requests.

The big question is, was the plan any good, were the estimates any good, did they execute properly or not. Sounds like there were problems in at least one of those three items. But from the standpoint of available force specifically from LA, the people of LA were not left defenseless as long as people did their jobs properly. Also notable, the looters and snipers, part of the 'people in need' sure didn't the situation. Balling up the people in the Stadiums and Convention Centers still leaving them in the most vulnerable flood areas certainly was part of a poor plan, making the situation far worse than it needed to be if they'd moved them completely out of the region.

boxcar
09-03-2005, 01:46 PM
I guess I'll have to spoon feed you and do the math for you. PA asked me "How many troops does 65% equate to?" I quoted from the article I cited that gives a broader perspective to his question that you probabably did not read "Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad." If 3000 is 35% then 65% = ....I'll let you fill in the answer,if you can. If you can't,go back to school.

Meathead, go back and read your origninal post -- the one PA responded to. The isssue you raised was the slow response time of the NG. PA's rhetorical question was this (since you're obviously a resident of URANUS, I'll spell it out): If the 65% of the remaining Guard responded so slowly, what makes you think that any additional guardsmen would have appreciably shortened that response time? Just how would larger numbers somehow magically shorten the response time?

Now knowing how a liberal's mind churns, I'll caution you to answer carefully. Remember: Your criticism (and others' of your ilk) is that all the Guard failed in terms of response time; therefore, if X amount failed (the 65% or the "all") then what makes you think that Y amount (100%) wouldn't have failed, also?

Boxcar

Steve 'StatMan'
09-03-2005, 01:56 PM
Good point about just not being able to get through, Boxcar. Yes, what was it that kept them from getting through.

Tom
09-03-2005, 04:12 PM
You live in hole between a lake and the Gulf, and you don't have a serious plan????????

Let's not forget, that loud-mouthed mayor TOLD those people to go the superDome and the Convention Center. And then had no plan to get food and water to them.
Less face time on TV and more time on the short raido might be a suggestion for this guy. Just what did he spend all that 9-11 homeland security money on anyway?

JustRalph
09-03-2005, 04:15 PM
You live in hole between a lake and the Gulf, and you don't have a serious plan????????

Let's not forget, that loud-mouthed mayor TOLD those people to go the superDome and the Convention Center. And then had no plan to get food and water to them.
Less face time on TV and more time on the short raido might be a suggestion for this guy. Just what did he spend all that 9-11 homeland security money on anyway?

Tom, the mayor told them to "bring food and water for 5 days" I heard that on day one. He told them to bring food and water.........and warned them there would be no food and water. What part of that can you not understand? Obviously most assumed the government would feed them etc.........

lsbets
09-03-2005, 04:24 PM
The NO plan called for mandatory evacs 72 hours prior to the storm hitting. 24 hourse before, Bush declared the area a disaster area so that emergency supplies could be prepositioned, and finally the city and state issued mandatory evacuations. According to the governor, they did so at the urging of Bush. Despite calling them mandatory evacuations, they did nothing to move out the people who couldn't move themselves. There is a picture out there of over 100 NO city buses that are now underwater. Those could and should have been used to get people out before the storm hit.

Then the storm veered east at the last minute, and everyone was saying the city caught a major break, and the assesment on Monday was that everything is okay. I wonder how many emergency people were stood down at that point. On Tuesday the levee broke.

chickenhead
09-03-2005, 04:56 PM
Tom, the mayor told them to "bring food and water for 5 days" I heard that on day one. He told them to bring food and water.........and warned them there would be no food and water. What part of that can you not understand? Obviously most assumed the government would feed them etc.........

He may have told them that, but that aint a plan. Those people got there in a multitude of ways, including walking....a guy with a wife and three or four little kids will need a lot of water for 5 days in 100 degree heat and high humidity. 8lbs a gallon, gallon a day each minimum...what is that...200 lbs? No food, no diapers, no family heirlooms, just water.

If your disaster plan, that you practice, is for people to congregate in two places mainly...in large qty...then part of your plan is to provide services, at least water, to those people.

ljb
09-03-2005, 05:21 PM
You presume to tell someone with a manyfold more intimate understanding of the local situation on the ground who and who not they should hold accountable? That takes a lot of ball and a lack of brains, ljb. You think you know better than whoever wrote that, whether the mayor and gov. provided leadership, before during or after the hurricane hit? You complain in another thread about the lack of police and fire service, and then say the local authorities mean nothing, and can do nothing? You are UTTERLY clueless.
We all know the situation on the ground. Thousands are stranded. For the first two days your administration stayed on vacation going to Broadway plays and giving campaign speechs. The local authorites did all they could do with the meager resources available to them. Last year when Fl. got hit Dubya was down there the next day tossing bags of ice. (course that was before the election hmmm) If you can't see the reality of what is happening here, you need help.

ljb
09-03-2005, 05:37 PM
I think Ljb might have forgotten about 9-11 and the tremendously heroic and sustained efforts put out by LOCAL New Yorkers, probably the toughest bunch of people on the whole damned planet.
The fires weren't even out yet and the NY'ers were cleaning up.
If I ever decide to piss of somebdy, it sure has heck won't be a New Yorker!
Remember now Tom, Your babe sez New Yorkers are cowards.
It is a little different being buried in dust and up to your neck in polluted water. Think about it.

doophus
09-03-2005, 06:54 PM
and now we're hearing stories from bus drivers, NG, police, et al about the evacuation of those stranded on the roadways. It seems the "men" are rushing to the front of the line--ahead of the women & kids--loading the busses and having to be physically removed. We'll probably hear from the ACLU in the next few days.

I suppose that partially explains the cause of yesterday's bus accident that killed at least one evacuee......evacuee went berserk, attacked the driver, and not one other passenger came to the driver's assistance.

WHAT HAS THIS WELFARE SOCIETY WROUGHT?

and the latest......Fats Domino has been found and is residing in the apartment in the French Qtrs. that belongs to the probable starting QB for LSU. College kid in Baton Rouge with his own Qtrs. apartment? Who will get credit for reporting LSU to the NCAA, Phil Fullmer or Steve Spurrier?

Light
09-03-2005, 07:12 PM
Meathead, go back and read your origninal post -- the one PA responded to. The isssue you raised was the slow response time of the NG. PA's rhetorical question was this (since you're obviously a resident of URANUS, I'll spell it out): If the 65% of the remaining Guard responded so slowly, what makes you think that any additional guardsmen would have appreciably shortened that response time? Just how would larger numbers somehow magically shorten the response time?

Now knowing how a liberal's mind churns, I'll caution you to answer carefully. Remember: Your criticism (and others' of your ilk) is that all the Guard failed in terms of response time; therefore, if X amount failed (the 65% or the "all") then what makes you think that Y amount (100%) wouldn't have failed, also?

Boxcar


Meathead? Let me guess,you're Archie Bunker. I can't help it if you can't follow the train of a thread. Now you want another question answered. You want to know what's the differece in response time between 65% of the national guard V.100%.Do the math. Oh I forgot. You can't .Answer 0.

But that's not the right question nor is it relevant. The question should have been,what would stand a better chance of dealing with a crisis? 65% of the NG facing a crisis or 100% of the NG facing a crisis. I know that's a tough one for you,but I know you can do it if you try.Come on.I'm rooting for you meatman.

Secretariat
09-03-2005, 07:13 PM
and now we're hearing stories from bus drivers, NG, police, et al about the evacuation of those stranded on the roadways. It seems the "men" are rushing to the front of the line--ahead of the women & kids--loading the busses and having to be physically removed. We'll probably hear from the ACLU in the next few days.

I suppose that partially explains the cause of yesterday's bus accident that killed at least one evacuee......evacuee went berserk, attacked the driver, and not one other passenger came to the driver's assistance.

WHAT HAS THIS WELFARE SOCIETY WROUGHT?



Welfare Society? Were you aware that hotel members from the Hyatt were brought to the front of the line of the people at the convention center and given priority to load buses over those that had been waiting for days...I don't think those staying at the Hyatt were from the Welfare crowd...

doophus
09-03-2005, 07:35 PM
Welfare Society? Were you aware that hotel members from the Hyatt were brought to the front of the line of the people at the convention center and given priority to load buses over those that had been waiting for days...I don't think those staying at the Hyatt were from the Welfare crowd...What's a "hotel member?" Let's look at a few things:

Hyatt sits immediately adjacent to the Superdome.
Hyatt's upper floor windows were shattered by flying 'Dome roof tiles.
Hyatt guests in top (5) floors were brought to lower levels.
Hyatt had same food, water, phone, electric and sewer problems that 'Dome was having.
All Hyatt guests and employees became victims.
An earlier rumor stated that Hyatt employees/guests had bull-rushed an earlier evacuation attempt.
Don't delude yourself into thinking the only victims were those in the Superdome or Convention Center.


A 'dome or Hyatt or Royal Sonesta or any other person who got caught had one certain commonality: they CHOSE to remain after being told to get out.

Secretariat
09-03-2005, 08:43 PM
What's a "hotel member?" Let's look at a few things:

Hyatt sits immediately adjacent to the Superdome.
Hyatt's upper floor windows were shattered by flying 'Dome roof tiles.
Hyatt guests in top (5) floors were brought to lower levels.
Hyatt had same food, water, phone, electric and sewer problems that 'Dome was having.
All Hyatt guests and employees became victims.
An earlier rumor stated that Hyatt employees/guests had bull-rushed an earlier evacuation attempt.
Don't delude yourself into thinking the only victims were those in the Superdome or Convention Center.


A 'dome or Hyatt or Royal Sonesta or any other person who got caught had one certain commonality: they CHOSE to remain after being told to get out.

That's all well and good, but why would that make them a part of a welfare society, and WHY should they have preference to go to the front of the evacuees line at the convention center?

DJofSD
09-03-2005, 09:52 PM
After reading this and other threads about the disaster in NO and LA, I've come to a conclusion.

The federal government needs to be bigger. That's the only way disasters like this one can be prevented in the future.

DJofSD

P.S. And if you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.

PaceAdvantage
09-04-2005, 12:29 AM
We all know the situation on the ground. Thousands are stranded. For the first two days your administration stayed on vacation going to Broadway plays and giving campaign speechs. The local authorites did all they could do with the meager resources available to them.

You're delusional! Did all they could do with meager resources? Bullshit. They screwed up BIG TIME with plenty of resources available. You are a turd, plain and simple. Even a national tragedy such as this one, with PLENTY OF BLAME to go around at the STATE and LOCAL level, and you resort to your partisan bullshit politics. You suck. Plain and simple.

Now you can come back at me, saying I have to resort to name calling, yada yada yada. But it's true. You do suck. As a human being.

No compassion, just jumping (no, make that drooling) at the chance to conjure up some more criticism for the Bush administration, when in fact, they are NOT the first responders. Louisiana STATE POLICE, Louisiana NATIONAL GUARD (under STATE CONTROL), LOCAL POLICE, etc. etc. are the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE and THEY along with all the local and STATE leaders, FAILED the people of New Orleans.

Now the Feds are in there moping up problems created by insufficient and downright inept leadership at the LOCAL and STATE level.

But just continue to criticize Bush....sooner or later everyone will finally realize you're a tool.

doophus
09-04-2005, 10:44 AM
That's all well and good, but why would that make them a part of a welfare society, and WHY should they have preference to go to the front of the evacuees line at the convention center?Sec, a La State Police friend can't confirm that the Hyatt "members" were granted special "rights" not afforded any other refugee. All were refugees being evacuated.

My exclamatory interrogatory about "Welfare" was only to point out that we ALL live in a Welfare state. The fact that the "men" were bull-rushing to board whatever mode of transportation being utilized despite the women/children waiting to be evacuated, IMO, directly correlates to our "ME FIRST society." Can you relate any other instance where men did not allow the women & children to go to the head of the line? If so, enlighten me.

wes
09-04-2005, 11:36 AM
WHO IS TO BLAME:

There was no "CHAIN OF COMMAND" in NO. There was no one to lead In LA. Blame the President if you like. You have the right. You see what has taken place once a chain of command was in place there since yesterday. You just can't start a mass operation without some plan in place. Seems as if La, along with NO may have been just going through the motions without any thought of it may some day happen.

wes

Tom
09-04-2005, 12:08 PM
PA posted, most poetically, and most truthfully,

"But just continue to criticize Bush....sooner or later everyone will finally realize you're a tool"

D'oh! Me and my lousy spelling - all this time I thought he was a Fool! :lol:


Man, you gotta be low when your WEBMASTER calls you a turd!!!!!:lol:

boxcar
09-04-2005, 12:13 PM
PA posted, most poetically, and most truthfully,

"But just continue to criticize Bush....sooner or later everyone will finally realize you're a tool"

D'oh! Me and my lousy spelling - all this time I thought he was a Fool! :lol:


Man, you gotta be low when your WEBMASTER calls you a turd!!!!!:lol:

Don't you know, Tom: Bush is both a Fool and a Tool? He was born a fool which accounts for how he became a tool of Big Oil interests. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

ljb
09-04-2005, 12:22 PM
Don't you know, Tom: Bush is both a Fool and a Tool? He was born a fool which accounts for how he became a tool of Big Oil interests. :rolleyes:

Boxcar
See box, in this post you are logical. You must have posted this before you posted that nonsense in the other thread. :D :lol:

Light
09-04-2005, 12:50 PM
PA and others who abhor Bush criticism on NO

Do you honestly think that LJB or anyone else who criticizes Bush regarding NO is using this as an opportunity for Bush bashing? If so then,yes,I would agree with you that that is low life territory and your adjectives would be appropriate. But you also need to be objective and see if there is a valid reason for criticizing the way the government handled this. The victims are angry,various groups and organizations are angry at the slow response from the federal level and even the President is not totally pleased. So it seems this is a well known issue and you are a bit out of line assuming LJB's intent is opportunistic.

chickenhead
09-04-2005, 01:04 PM
So it seems this is a well known issue and you are a bit out of line assuming LJB's intent is opportunistic.

If LJB ever did anything other than bash Bush, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. FEMA has been slow to respond, of course, and deserves criticism. So have the local and state organizations. LJB went so far as to absolve anyone and everyone of responsibility, other than Bush. Make up your own mind as to what level of bottom feeding that represents.

I certainly do not abhor any type of criticism, if it makes sense.

Steve 'StatMan'
09-04-2005, 01:52 PM
Welfare Society? Were you aware that hotel members from the Hyatt were brought to the front of the line of the people at the convention center and given priority to load buses over those that had been waiting for days...I don't think those staying at the Hyatt were from the Welfare crowd...

I did see a one report on ABC on Friday Night I believe. Don't remember the name of the hotel, but the guest (yes, white) complained that the Hotel themselves had chartered and paid (a huge sum) for a bus to come into the city and pick up their guests. When this bus reached the control point to get into the city, the authorities (don't know which branch) siezed the bus to be used for the general relief effort!

Yes, everyone needs to get out, but sounds like all a lot of peoples rights were taken/suspended during this situation.

Maybe this was the same group, and this was to make up for overstepping some bounds. Doubt we'll know for sure.

lsbets
09-04-2005, 02:13 PM
PA and others who abhor Bush criticism on NO

Do you honestly think that LJB or anyone else who criticizes Bush regarding NO is using this as an opportunity for Bush bashing? If so then,yes,I would agree with you that that is low life territory and your adjectives would be appropriate. But you also need to be objective and see if there is a valid reason for criticizing the way the government handled this. The victims are angry,various groups and organizations are angry at the slow response from the federal level and even the President is not totally pleased. So it seems this is a well known issue and you are a bit out of line assuming LJB's intent is opportunistic.

I don't abhor criticism, hell if you actually read, which I don't think you do, you'd see than a lot of the people you are referring to have been pretty critical of the reilief effort.

No sane human being can absolve the local and state officials of blame. Hcap sure doesn't. There is someone who I virtually never agree with on anything, who I at least think is genuine in his beliefs. I know he wants to blame Bush, but he held off, and he acknowledged a lot of blame flows down to the State and local level.

Some guys want to talk about lack of funding for the levees, as if the levees only became insufficient after the 2000 election. NO has been around for 200+ years, and Bush is somehow responsible for the levees being insufficient? Give me a break. I took 30 seconds of time to suggest a way for the local government to get the money they say they needed to shore up the levees. If I could put 30 seconds of thought into it, why couldn't the city put a lot of thought into it?

I would think someone was genuine saying the feds haven't done more for the levees if they said something along the lines of "Every President since 1965 when Betsy struck failed the city of NO by not providing the funds to shore up the levees". To say the levees were insufficient only because of Bush and Iraq is opportunistic bashing, and you Light are guilty of that.

Ljb is well know, his lack of character has been well established. To him, bad news is an opprtunity to bash and gloat. He was revealed a long time ago.

If the blame lies primarily with the federal government, I am still waiting for someone to explain why MS hasn't had the same problems as NO. Why has MS had a much more effective response to the disaster?

Blackgold
09-04-2005, 02:14 PM
You can never go wrong figuring all public officials will fail miseiably.

I left New Orleans two days before the storm hit, fully packed to operate from a remote location for an extended period of time.

First of all, we are a nation that markets debt. And we use that debt to build more 'eyewash' activity.

We are good at press conferences, but poor at action.

Dept. of Homeland Security is a joke. As one living in New Orleans I can tell you that at anytime a terrorist can drive up to one of those buildings next to the river and blow the city out of commission, just like Katrina did. But I take my shoes off at the airport.

Remember it was our system of depts. and bereaucratics that said, "oh, you just want to learn how to fly the plane and not take off and land. . just fill out these forms Mr. Mussabie.

Frankly, I wished New Orleans could succeed from the Union and keep all our tax dollars. I'm sure we could do a better job that the collective goons (demo and repub) we got at every level of power.

boxcar
09-04-2005, 02:35 PM
You can never go wrong figuring all public officials will fail miseiably.

I left New Orleans two days before the storm hit, fully packed to operate from a remote location for an extended period of time.

First of all, we are a nation that markets debt. And we use that debt to build more 'eyewash' activity.

We are good at press conferences, but poor at action.

Dept. of Homeland Security is a joke. As one living in New Orleans I can tell you that at anytime a terrorist can drive up to one of those buildings next to the river and blow the city out of commission, just like Katrina did. But I take my shoes off at the airport.

Remember it was our system of depts. and bereaucratics that said, "oh, you just want to learn how to fly the plane and not take off and land. . just fill out these forms Mr. Mussabie.

Frankly, I wished New Orleans could succeed from the Union and keep all our tax dollars. I'm sure we could do a better job that the collective goons (demo and repub) we got at every level of power.


Well said, BG!

Boxcar

boxcar
09-04-2005, 02:53 PM
If the blame lies primarily with the federal government, I am still waiting for someone to explain why MS hasn't had the same problems as NO. Why has MS had a much more effective response to the disaster?

Easy to explain: Barbour has his head screwed on straight! (This is something that Left Wing Whackos would be loathe to admit -- that a Wascally Weepublican can actually think beyond this nose.)

But seriously -- after listening this morning to Barbour articulate what the current situation in his state is and what still needs to be done, etc., I was left with the distinct impression that he was in control, in command, in charge, had a good view of the big picture -- had a decent handle on the situation. The diff between him and the mayor of NO and him and Gov. BlancLook is like day and night. No comparison. No comparison between how he and the officials I just mentioned in LA articulated their situation. And certainly no comparison in the results obtained in their respective states, thus far. And believe me: Parts of Mississippi were hit very hard!

Gov. Barbour seems to be cut from the same cloth as a former mayor Giuliani and Gov. Pataki in NY.

Boxcar

ljb
09-04-2005, 04:27 PM
If LJB ever did anything other than bash Bush, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. FEMA has been slow to respond, of course, and deserves criticism. So have the local and state organizations. LJB went so far as to absolve anyone and everyone of responsibility, other than Bush. Make up your own mind as to what level of bottom feeding that represents.

I certainly do not abhor any type of criticism, if it makes sense.
chicken,
Show me the note where I absolved anyone and everyone of responsiblilty other then Bush.
I will however repeat something already posted hereabouts "The buck stops here" Harry Truman, a real president.

PaceAdvantage
09-04-2005, 06:26 PM
If LJB ever did anything other than bash Bush, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. FEMA has been slow to respond, of course, and deserves criticism. So have the local and state organizations. LJB went so far as to absolve anyone and everyone of responsibility, other than Bush. Make up your own mind as to what level of bottom feeding that represents.

I certainly do not abhor any type of criticism, if it makes sense.


Light, read what chicken head wrote. I agree 100%. This has nothing to do with Bush criticism. I criticize Bush all the time. The reason you don't see me doing it on this board is because there are already 20 different folks bashing Bush every single day....who needs me doing a little objective criticism of my own?

See, the key point here is objectivity. LJB isn't objective, nor is he fair, nor is he rational. That's why I called him a turd and a tool. Juvenile? Sure. But I'm still young....sort of....so I am allowed an outburst every now and then.

Secretariat
09-04-2005, 07:12 PM
This is not an issue of Bush bashing, but his record, and that is what LJB is trying to get at.

There are two fundamental issues here.

One. Was Bush's response to the storm too slow? Ask the people of NO.

Two. Could this have been prevented? Absolutely. Look at how much Bush put into his budget to address his own FEMA’s warning pre-911 about the hurricane potential of New orleans.

In the past five years, the amount of money spent on all Corps construction projects in the New Orleans district has declined by 44 percent, according to the New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper, from $147 million in 2001 to $82 million in the current fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.

In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year…forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze.

The Corps reported that “seven new contracts are being delayed due to lack funds” [sic].

The President proposed $3 million for the project in the budget for fiscal 2006, which begins Oct. 1. “This will be insufficient to fund new construction projects,” the fact sheet stated. It says the Corps “could spend $20 million if funds were provided.” 3 million???

• April 24, 2004: The Times-Picayune reported that “less money is available to the Army Corps of Engineers to build levees and water projects in the Missisippi River valley this year and next year.” Meanwhile, an engineer who had direct the Louisiana Coastal Area Ecosystem Restoration Study – a study of how to restore coastal wetlands areas in order to provide a bugger from hurricane storm surges – was sent to Iraq "to oversee the restoration of the ‘Garden of Eden’ wetlands at the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers,” for which President Bush’s 2005 gave $100 million.

A Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report from before September 11, 2001 detailed the three most likely catastrophic disasters that could happen in the United States: a terrorist attack in New York, a strong earthquake in San Francisco, and a hurricane strike in New Orleans.

So do all the spinning you want, call LJB a lib, or me an idiot. The one who are politcizing this are the ones who don’t want to look at the record. We’re sick of rhetoric and photo ops. Even the on the street reporters on FOX GET IT even if their anchors don't!

PaceAdvantage
09-04-2005, 07:19 PM
So we are to rely on the Federal Government for everything? Why bother having a state and local government, especially seeing how they utterly failed the people of New Orleans.

No matter who you think GETS IT, it's painfully obvious that both you and LJB do NOT get it....

The Feds are a last resort....and they're getting the job done now because State and Local officials COULDN'T.

boxcar
09-04-2005, 07:24 PM
Get Off His Back (Updated) By Ben Stein Published 9/2/2005 11:59:59 PM

***UPDATED: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.***

A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth:

1.) The hurricane that hit New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama was an astonishing tragedy. The suffering and loss of life and peace of mind of the residents of those areas is acutely horrifying.

2.) George Bush did not cause the hurricane. Hurricanes have been happening for eons. George Bush did not create them or unleash this one.

3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born.

4.) There is no overwhelming evidence that global warming exists as a man-made phenomenon. There is no clear-cut evidence that global warming even exists. There is no clear evidence that if it does exist it makes hurricanes more powerful or makes them aim at cities with large numbers of poor people. If global warming is a real phenomenon, which it may well be, it started long before George Bush was inaugurated, and would not have been affected at all by the Kyoto treaty, considering that Kyoto does not cover the world's worst polluters -- China, India, and Brazil. In a word, George Bush had zero to do with causing this hurricane. To speculate otherwise is belief in sorcery.

5.) George Bush had nothing to do with the hurricane contingency plans for New Orleans. Those are drawn up by New Orleans and Louisiana. In any event, the plans were perfectly good: mandatory evacuation. It is in no way at all George Bush's fault that about 20 percent of New Orleans neglected to follow the plan. It is not his fault that many persons in New Orleans were too confused to realize how dangerous the hurricane would be. They were certainly warned. It's not George Bush's fault that there were sick people and old people and people without cars in New Orleans. His job description does not include making sure every adult in America has a car, is in good health, has good sense, and is mobile.

6.) George Bush did not cause gangsters to shoot at rescue helicopters taking people from rooftops, did not make gang bangers rape young girls in the Superdome, did not make looters steal hundreds of weapons, in short make New Orleans into a living hell.

7.) George Bush is the least racist President in mind and soul there has ever been and this is shown in his appointments over and over. To say otherwise is scandalously untrue.

8.) George Bush is rushing every bit of help he can to New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama as soon as he can. He is not a magician. It takes time to organize huge convoys of food and now they are starting to arrive. That they get in at all considering the lawlessness of the city is a miracle of bravery and organization.

9.) There is not the slightest evidence at all that the war in Iraq has diminished the response of the government to the emergency. To say otherwise is pure slander.

10.) If the energy the news media puts into blaming Bush for an Act of God worsened by stupendous incompetence by the New Orleans city authorities and the malevolence of the criminals of the city were directed to helping the morale of the nation, we would all be a lot better off.

11.) New Orleans is a great city with many great people. It will recover and be greater than ever. Sticking pins into an effigy of George Bush that does not resemble him in the slightest will not speed the process by one day.

12.) The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level. Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.

God bless all of those dear people who are suffering so much, and God bless those helping them, starting with George Bush.

****
UPDATE: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.:

More Mysteries of Katrina:

Why is it that the snipers who shot at emergency rescuers trying to save people in hospitals and shelters are never mentioned except in passing, and Mr. Bush, who is turning over heaven and earth to rescue the victims of the storm, is endlessly vilified?

What church does Rev. Al Sharpton belong to that believes in passing blame and singling out people by race for opprobrium and hate?

What special abilities does the media have for deciding how much blame goes to the federal government as opposed to the city government of New Orleans for the aftereffects of Katrina?

If able-bodied people refuse to obey a mandatory evacuation order for a city, have they not assumed the risk that ill effects will happen to them?

When the city government simply ignores its own sick and hospitalized and elderly people in its evacuation order, is Mr. Bush to blame for that?

Is there any problem in the world that is not Mr. Bush's fault, or have we reverted to a belief in a sort of witchcraft where we credit a mortal man with the ability to create terrifying storms and every other kind of ill wind?

Where did the idea come from that salvation comes from hatred and criticism and mockery instead of love and co-operation?


Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He also writes "Ben Stein's Diary" in every issue of The American Spectator. Please click here to subscribe.

NOTE TO READERS: Our editor@spectator.org server is currently down. Please direct all letters-to-the-editor to wplesz@aol.com

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chickenhead
09-04-2005, 07:29 PM
Sec, it is posts like this that get my goat.

I read an article yesterday, you probably read the same one for all I know, interview with the NO ACoE top guy, he said two things...

1st: Any money that would have made a difference last week so far as the levees, would have been required 20-25 years ago. He stated that as fact.

2nd: The levee that broke, was not under consideration for restoration or improvement. If they had been 100% funded, nothing would have been different.

I am not saying your criticism is wrong, or untrue, but it lacks perspective from my point of view...it MASSIVELY lacks perspective. That is what gets under my skin. You are willing to gloss over the fact that the levees would not have been fixed in time, and that the correct levee would not have been fixed at all...to make political points.

Lefty
09-04-2005, 08:10 PM
That's all well and good, but why would that make them a part of a welfare society, and WHY should they have preference to go to the front of the evacuees line at the convention center?
I've already forgot who asked that q about 2-3 pages ago in reference to the Hyatt guests who went to the front of the line but here's the answer:
It was on the news that it was the Mayor who made the decision.

Secretariat
09-04-2005, 08:40 PM
Lefty,

If it was the mayor it was a terrible decision by him. Could you provide a link on that?

Chickenhead,

I'm sorry you don't like the quotes. They're from fwww.factcheck.org.

My purpose was to examine the Bush record on Hurricane preparedness, and priorities. You think I make this stuff up? What's sad is I don't have to.

My question: were the Bush cuts in funding responsbile for what happened on the levees? The truth is we don't know. One Army Corps of Engineer's member said it could have at least lessened the damage if they had been fully funded, and another says it wouldn't have mattered. What we DO KNOW, is the LACK OF FUNDING DIDN'T HELP, and we know that Bush's own FEMA warned pre-911 of a the danger of a hurricane in New Orleans as being one of its three highest concerns, and WE KNOW that despite this Bush has continually submitted significantly lower budgets than the Army Corps has asked for to deal with the levee situation while at the same time giving the upper class massive tax cuts sayign we can afford it. Well, this is what you get. Imagine what this lack of funding may be causing in 20 years. Chickenhead, you may not like the information I post, but it's well documented in the Bush record.

I try to keep my posts related to stuff like that, and avoid stuff that is anecdotal, but since I get attacked for factual information, here's some of the anectodal stuff.

"Dutch viewer Frank Tiggelaar writes:

There was a striking discrepancy between the CNN International report on the Bush visit to the New Orleans disaster zone, yesterday, and reports of the same event by German TV.

ZDF News reported that the president's visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time.

The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF."

Now, do I know if that account from the German media is true? No, I do not, but the other stuff I have posted in this thread is accurate and documented.

Lefty
09-04-2005, 08:49 PM
sec, saw it on Fox news, think it was Shep who reported it.

chickenhead
09-04-2005, 09:20 PM
I'm sorry you don't like the quotes. They're from fwww.factcheck.org

Where did I say I don't like the quotes? I said they lack perspective, meaning that taken alone, they do not lead to a very good understanding of what happened, and why.

My purpose was to examine the Bush record on Hurricane preparedness, and priorities.

Maybe this is the problem, I didn't realize that that was your purpose. I assumed like me, you were trying to find out why this happened to these people in NO. I didn't realize your sole intent was to examine the Bush record visa vis hurricanes..in this case your lack of perspective is understandable, you were shooting for narrow...and looking for criticism first, comprehension second.

You think I make this stuff up?

Now you're a martyr? I never questioned the accuracy of anything you posted, in fact I conceded it.


I thought you were interested in the big picture, I was wrong. You were, surprise, only interested in bad things about Bush. Imagine my shock.

ljb
09-04-2005, 09:21 PM
You're delusional! Did all they could do with meager resources? Bullshit. They screwed up BIG TIME with plenty of resources available. You are a turd, plain and simple. Even a national tragedy such as this one, with PLENTY OF BLAME to go around at the STATE and LOCAL level, and you resort to your partisan bullshit politics. You suck. Plain and simple.

Now you can come back at me, saying I have to resort to name calling, yada yada yada. But it's true. You do suck. As a human being.

No compassion, just jumping (no, make that drooling) at the chance to conjure up some more criticism for the Bush administration, when in fact, they are NOT the first responders. Louisiana STATE POLICE, Louisiana NATIONAL GUARD (under STATE CONTROL), LOCAL POLICE, etc. etc. are the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE and THEY along with all the local and STATE leaders, FAILED the people of New Orleans.

Now the Feds are in there moping up problems created by insufficient and downright inept leadership at the LOCAL and STATE level.

But just continue to criticize Bush....sooner or later everyone will finally realize you're a tool.

Glad to see you have resorted to name calling. Boxcar and Tom do that frequently when they can no longer argue with intelligence. :D :D :D

ElKabong
09-04-2005, 09:30 PM
Several actually turned in their badges from what I heard from a reporter in N.O. This is a localized failure. More than anything. The Mayor and Police Chief should be indicted for something. The Governor should be thrown out of office. They have nothing left to govern anyway. We are talking about the most corrupt municipal organizations in the country. .

Correct JR. On our local news Friday nite, 2 NOLA police officers were interviewed in a Grand Prairie, TX home while staying with their cousin here. They took off out of New Orleans on Tuesday because "it was too dangerous" to patrol the street and neighborhoods immediately after the storm quited.

From what I've seen, the mayor of New Orleans entire plan for this was to say "get out of town" 48 hrs before the hurricane hit, then yell "Where's George" 2 days later.

Piss poor planning, but not surprising.

PaceAdvantage
09-04-2005, 11:10 PM
Glad to see you have resorted to name calling. Boxcar and Tom do that frequently when they can no longer argue with intelligence. :D :D :D

Sometimes, a man just has to call them as he sees them. And I see you as a tool.

PaceAdvantage
09-04-2005, 11:12 PM
Boxcar, thanks for posting that, although a link would have been sufficient.....

Nothing like some rational thought to clear the air....

Tom
09-04-2005, 11:14 PM
....and I see you as a FOOL.

But I have to agree with the turd part, though.

Ljb....intelligent dicussion and YOU is like saying "Hand me the piano."

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 12:16 AM
I thought you were interested in the big picture, I was wrong. You were, surprise, only interested in bad things about Bush. Imagine my shock.

Hopeless. The "big picture" is the failure to adequately fund the levees which caused the flooding which dramatically enlarged the problem causing massive loss of life. You want to quote one engineer who stated that this had to be funded 20 years ago to make a difference. Does that make it Reagan's failure? I'm sick of politicians not being culpable.

Let me ask you one simple thing Chickenhead. If you were President and your FEMA came to you pre-911 and said we've got three real danger areas, terrorism in NYC, a San Fran earthquake, and a major hurricane in New Orleans, don't you think you'd be remiss if you gutted the budget for the hurricane scenario that the Army Corps of Engineers was asking for to remedy the problem? If you don't think you would be remiss, you may be able to get a job in the White House.

lsbets
09-05-2005, 12:39 AM
"He also took strong issue with any suggestion that budget constraints or poor planning hampered efforts to protect New Orleans. Decisions were made decades ago to build levees capable of withstanding a Category 3 hurricane, not a Category 4 like Katrina. Guarding against anything more destructive would have cost exponentially more.

"The intensity of this storm simply exceeded the design capacity of this levee," Gen. Strock said. "That is the basic problem here."

"Some people will say the war is taking funds, and maybe that's true. But no amount of money would have solved this problem," said Alfred Naomi, a senior project manager with the Corps in New Orleans. "If I'd had a billion dollars, we couldn't have stopped it. ... We had a Category 3 design. This was an extraordinarily strong Category 4."

Sec - read carefully - decisions were made DECADES ago. DECADES. No amount of money would have solved this problem. That means none Sec. That means giving all the money in the world to finish the projects that were already started would not have accomplished a thing because the basic design would not work.

I know, we've seen your modus operendi enough, you will try to find something to contradict these statements by the peole who actually do the job. You deign to know more about any situation than the actual people who are there on hand if it gives you the chance to bash Bush. Your agenda is so transparent its pathetic.

Here is a quote from someone I can respect:

For activists who have pressed for funding to reduce Louisiana's storm risk, the pattern is all too familiar. And Mr. Davis noted the sums sought for flood control and coastal restoration pale beside those now being spent on relief and rebuilding.

"This is a coast that has not counted Republicans or Democrats as its friends," he said.

Now why do I respect him and think you are a transparent hack? Easy, he knows that the world was not a picture of perfection before Bush's inauguration that was suddenly plunged backwards into the dark ages when Bush took over. Any reader of your posts realizes very quickly that the world according to Sec was one of peace, tranquility, and perfection until George Bush ruined it.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 01:16 AM
Obviously, the guy the Bush adminstration fired in 2002 (Mike Parker) who was the Head of the Army Corps looks at it a bit differently (but of course perhaps you dismiss anyone who disagrees with Bush as a hack)

Ex-Army Corps officials say budget cuts imperiled flood mitigation efforts
By Jason Vest and Justin Rood

As levees burst and floods continued to spread across areas hit by Hurricane Katrina yesterday, a former chief of the Army Corps of Engineers disparaged senior White House officials for "not understanding" that key elements of the region's infrastructure needed repair and rebuilding.

Mike Parker, the former head of the Army Corps of Engineers, was forced to resign in 2002 over budget disagreements with the White House. He clashed with Mitch Daniels, former director of the Office of Management and Budget, which sets the administration's annual budget goals.

"One time I took two pieces of steel into Mitch Daniels' office," Parker recalled. "They were exactly the same pieces of steel, except one had been under water in a Mississippi lock for 30 years, and the other was new. The first piece was completely corroded and falling apart because of a lack of funding. I said, 'Mitch, it doesn't matter if a terrorist blows the lock up or if it falls down because it disintegrates -- either way it's the same effect, and if we let it fall down, we have only ourselves to blame.' It made no impact on him whatsoever." ]
…..
Parker -- who, along with members of his family, was forced to evacuate his Mississippi farm on Sunday night -- drew media attention (and the White House's ire) in 2002 by telling the Senate Budget Committee that a White House proposal to cut just over $2 billion from the Corps' $6 billion budget request would have a "negative impact" on the national interest. Parker also noted that cuts would mean the end of scores of contracts and the loss of tens of thousands of jobs.

After Parker's Capitol Hill appearance, Daniels wrote an angry memo to President Bush, writing that Parker's testimony "reads badly. . . on the printed page," and that "Parker. . . [was] distancing [himself] actively from the administration." Parker, a former Republican congressman from Mississippi, was forced to resign shortly thereafter.

The Corps of Engineers handles many of the nation's largest infrastructure projects, such as draining and restoring wetlands, dredging ports and harbors, building dams, bridges and waterways, and preparing for and responding to natural disasters. In Katrina's wake, those functions have attracted the interest of policymakers and citizens alike.

The Corps' efforts have won it mixed reviews over the years. The New Orleans Times-Picayune wrote in 2002, "No one has been more responsible for keeping Louisiana habitable over the past 200 years than the Army Corps of Engineers. But the Corps has also caused the most problems."

The Bush administration consistently has pushed to trim the Corps' budget. But Congress has been reluctant to follow its lead, and regularly hands the organization several hundred million dollars more than the White House requests.

......

The Buck Never Stops Anymore on Pennsylvania Avenue

Lefty
09-05-2005, 01:31 AM
It truly is weird that the everything was fine during the Clinton yrs and then the last 8 the whole damn infrastructure of the U.S. suddenly went to hell.

Light
09-05-2005, 01:59 AM
Let's assume the pro Bushers are right.That if Bush did not cut funding for the Levee's and allowed the wetlands to continue to gradually dissappear,it would not have saved New Orleans.Let's also assume Bush was not at fault for a slow response.Also let's assume it's a Democrat in office, if you feel more comfortable. I don't really care.

The problem is that many victims and their supporters do not appreciate the federal government taking away funding from state projects that had potential to save lives.Even if it wouldn't have saved them,they feel let down by their government for not supporting them and trying to help them.This displeasure will grow when the body count starts. I think people also feel direspected that their government would rather divert that money to bring Democracy to Iraq,rather than protecting the safety of their own citizens .

hcap
09-05-2005, 04:55 AM
Sec, ljb, Light

I tend to agree that the federal response was criminally slow. And your right cutting funds exacerbated the situation. Chertoff and Brown should be castrated. But the perilous nature of the gulf coast has been an issue before bush., and what troubles me particularly is the poor evacuation plans by Nagin and Blanco. The same studies that environmentalists highlighted, the Fema studies, all pointed to a disaster waiting to happen. Many pre-fload-Katrina studies pointed to 10-20% of the population of NO, the poor and car-less being trapped in a flooding city. Where was the forthought by Nagin and Blanco?

Now having said that, I also have to point out that post 911, the feds also have dropped the ball bigtime. They also knew about the studies, OR SHOULD HAVE!!!. They now have the ultimate responsibility. Remember "911 changed everything"?? Evidently not.

This was a tragedy that could have been mitagated by a better evacuation plan, and homeland security-now the "owner" of Fema-getting off their asses, and generating the will to do what is necessary. NOLA is vital to the energy and oil supplies of this country. To wean ourselves off foreign oil, and to avoid entanglements like Iraq, it is unforgivable that "HOMELAND SECURITY" aka Fema ignored this problem.

EVERYONE knew. Everyone is responsible

http://www.americaswetland.com/article.cfm?id=241&cateid=2&pageid=3&cid=16


" We believe the case has been made. Louisiana's wetlands - America's WETLAND - is crucial to the nations oil and gas production, commercial fisheries, navigation and commerce and national security. Restoring the damage hastened by years of inland and offshore drilling is clearly a national responsibility.

The President, in this Policy Statement, has failed us. To sidestep this as a key issue would be a serious deficiency, in the Energy Bill, and the entire nation will suffer as a consequence."

hcap
09-05-2005, 06:31 AM
Another look at the strategic importance of the gulf and WHY homeland SECURITY neglected their charter. Remember in 2001 there was a study by Fema that highlighted a huricane strike in the gulf as one of the 3 worst disasters that we face

http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/050903-geopolitics_katrina.php

..."Last Sunday, nature took out New Orleans almost as surely as a nuclear strike. Hurricane Katrina's geopolitical effect was not, in many ways, distinguishable from a mushroom cloud. The key exit from North America was closed. The petrochemical industry, which has become an added value to the region since Jackson's days, was at risk. The navigability of the Mississippi south of New Orleans was a question mark. New Orleans as a city and as a port complex had ceased to exist, and it was not clear that it could recover.

The ports of South Louisiana and New Orleans, which run north and south of the city, are as important today as at any point during the history of the republic. On its own merit, the Port of South Louisiana is the largest port in the United States by tonnage and the fifth-largest in the world. It exports more than 52 million tons a year, of which more than half are agricultural products -- corn, soybeans and so on. A larger proportion of U.S. agriculture flows out of the port. Almost as much cargo, nearly 57 million tons, comes in through the port -- including not only crude oil, but chemicals and fertilizers, coal, concrete and so on. "

..."The oil fields, pipelines and ports required a skilled workforce in order to operate. That workforce requires homes. They require stores to buy food and other supplies. Hospitals and doctors. Schools for their children. In other words, in order to operate the facilities critical to the United States, you need a workforce to do it -- and that workforce is gone. Unlike in other disasters, that workforce cannot return to the region because they have no place to live. New Orleans is gone, and the metropolitan area surrounding New Orleans is either gone or so badly damaged that it will not be inhabitable for a long time."

hcap
09-05-2005, 07:30 AM
Mayor Nagin, and Gov Blanco

The failure to use the New Orleans school buses and the New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority, together numbering maybe 4-500 is a problem. Getting the standed out could have been done to some extent.

Unless national guard troops were needed to drive them, or federal funding cuts prevented this plan from happening, this rests mostly on local shoulders.

http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/floodedbuses.jpg

This AP photo shows scores of New Orleans school buses sitting in flood waters after Hurricane Katrina - sitting where they sat instead of being used to evacuate thousands of poor people before Katrina hit.

hcap
09-05-2005, 07:36 AM
The Feds,

From

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/4/171811/1974

The National Response Plan was accepted and implemented by Bush Administration in December 2004. According to the PREFACE, President Bush, "directed the development of a new National Response Plan (NRP) to align Federal coordination structures, capabilities, and resources into a unified, all discipline, and all-hazards approach to domestic incident management. . . .The end result is vastly improved coordination among Federal, State, local, and tribal organizations to help save lives and protect America's communities by increasing the speed, effectiveness, and efficiency of incident management."

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf

On page 43 of the NRP the section is titled, "Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events" which I have copied and pasted below:


The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions. A catastrophic event could result in sustained national impacts over a prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and significantly interrupts governmental operations and emergency services to such an extent that national security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are Incidents of National Significance.

Implementation of Proactive Federal Response Protocols

Protocols for proactive Federal response are most likely to be implemented for catastrophic events involving chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or high-yield explosive weapons of mass destruction, or large magnitude earthquakes or other natural or technological disasters in or near heavily populated areas.

Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response
Guiding principles for proactive Federal response include the following:
■ The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
■ Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
■ Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
■ Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
■ State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative planning with the Federal Government as a part of "steady-state" preparedness for catastrophic incidents.

Implementation Mechanisms for Proactive
Federal Response to Catastrophic Events
The NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement (described in the Catastrophic Incident Annex) addresses resource and procedural implications of catastrophic events to ensure the rapid and efficient delivery of resources and assets, including special teams, equipment, and supplies that provide critical lifesaving support and incident containment capabilities. These assets may be so specialized or costly that they are either not available or are in insufficient quantities in most localities.

The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement are based on the following:
■ The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
■ The strategic location of pre-identified assets for rapid deployment; and
■ The use of pre-scripted mission assignments for Stafford Act declarations, or individual agency authority and funding, to expedite deployment upon notification by DHS (in accordance with procedures established in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement) of a potential catastrophic event.

Agencies responsible for these assets will keep DHS apprised, through the HSOC, of their ongoing status and location until the JFO is established. Upon arrival at the scene, Federal assets will coordinate with the Unified Command, the SFLEO, and the JFO (or its forward elements) when established. Demobilization processes, including full coordination with the JFO Coordination Group, are initiated either when the mission is completed or when it is determined the magnitude of the event does not warrant continued use of the asset.

While the Bush Administration is to be commended for coming up with a plan for dealing with terrorism and large scale disasters, it must be condemned for its abject failure to implement the NRP. And, specific heads must role starting with Michael Chertoff and the head of FEMA.

ljb
09-05-2005, 08:06 AM
Hcap,
Too many words for me this morning as I have scheduled events today. However i will just say the locals both state and city did also screw up big time in this disaster. If I have inferred otherwise I apologize to all.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 09:44 AM
It truly is weird that the everything was fine during the Clinton yrs and then the last 8 the whole damn infrastructure of the U.S. suddenly went to hell.

Good post Lefty.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 10:11 AM
Hcap,

Your picture of the flooded buses is extremely disheartening. The problem is this disaster was predictable, and knowable before the event. No one is absolving the local authorities for their responsiblities during this, but what is troublesome to me is that everyone knew that this would require a massive federal effort well beyond the capability of any local authorities to deal with, and the federal effort was so slowly implemented and so poorly planned despite numerous federal studies on dealing with just such as disaster. The lack of funding for the levees, the lack of funding to preserve the wetlands, all point to Lousiana that hurricane control for the adminstration was a non-priority despite FEMA's concern ala it's pre-911 warnings. While FEMA should take some of the blame for its slow and tentative response, the failure to supply funds which in fact caused the Army Corps of Engineers to implement a "hiring freeze" reveal that this was not a federal govt. priority despite FEMA's advice. In that regard FEMA cannot be blamed, because they did make the recommendations for increased budgets for levee funding and wetlands restoration. The funding just wasn't forthcoming being eaten up by revenue which went to the tax cuts, and Iraq. Those were the adminstration priorities as evidenced by its actual funding preferences. That is a major aspect that the adminstration must address. It made a decision, and beleived those two items outweighed the importance of hurricane control in NO beyond funding what the experts on the ground said they needed. Whether the funding could have stopped the levee flooding, or reduced the strength of the hurricane with wetlands development, or other interim fixes could have been implemented diverts us from the issue (and I have been guilty of that as well, even though former Republican Head of the Army Corps of Engineer Parker beleives it may have helped). The issue is what kind of priority did the adminstration place on this despite the pleas from it's own FEMA and from Parker. And the answer is readily apparent by the dollars spent on it. A woefully inadequate amount which will now cost the nation many more "billions", than the paltry "three million" than the admin budgeted for it for 2006.

So, lay all responsibilties that are deserving on falied local response that should be, but do not turn a blind eye to a horrific injustice done to the people of NO by an administration well aware of the problems, but chose tax cuts over FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers' request for NO hurricane control. And now this week, revenue that is going to be needed to pay for restoration, AND hurricane control is being sliced further by a legislation attempt to repeal the estate tax. This is money lost to the treasury, lost to fixing EXACTLY this sort of thing. Instead we will have to continue to borrow more money from China. There's no free lunch, and somwhere some leadership has to emerge, beyond the rhetoric.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 10:24 AM
A perspective from the NO paper:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054586

Tom
09-05-2005, 11:06 AM
Why is that La couldn't divert some of their party money to theor OWN projects? They got a cutof the 9-11 finding....I hve asked a dozen times, what did they do with that? Why couldn't they add room taxes to raise money?


Typical lib respones.....who will take care of me? I certainly can't do it myself.
Maybe the lesson here is don't live in a hole in the ocean.
If those levys were so fragile, why did NO allow people to remain there? Is than not THIER responsiility to make those calls?

Lefty
09-05-2005, 11:50 AM
Yeah, and a truly great call to just turn criminals loose on people already having their hands full just to survive. Now that's great planning!

Lefty
09-05-2005, 12:35 PM
isaid, then sec says:Originally Posted by Lefty
It truly is weird that the everything was fine during the Clinton yrs and then the last 8 the whole damn infrastructure of the U.S. suddenly went to hell.



Good post Lefty.

sec, I really expected this response but from lbj, but you'll do.

ljb
09-05-2005, 12:41 PM
....and I see you as a FOOL.

But I have to agree with the turd part, though.

Ljb....intelligent dicussion and YOU is like saying "Hand me the piano."
Tom, glad to see you no longer have me on your ignore list. I hated it when you chose to be ignorant. :D

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 12:41 PM
Why is that La couldn't divert some of their party money to theor OWN projects? They got a cutof the 9-11 finding....I hve asked a dozen times, what did they do with that? Why couldn't they add room taxes to raise money?

Typical lib respones.....who will take care of me? I certainly can't do it myself.
Maybe the lesson here is don't live in a hole in the ocean.
If those levys were so fragile, why did NO allow people to remain there? Is than not THIER responsiility to make those calls?

I've looked at your question on the motel and room taxes and this is what I've found.

NO is a tourism city. They've used hotel and motel taxes already to help build the Superdome. Thankfully, that was there during this. They've used hotel and motel taxes to lure a professional basketball team from Charlotte and for a streetcar project. All of these were for tourism which the hotels and motels supported somewhat despite a 1985 exemption in their law to hotels and motels for no tax increases. Again nobody wants to actually pay for infrastructure needs.

This article shows that NO tourism has dried up since 911 and the Saints themselves are claiming millions in money from promised hotel and motel revenue which did not meet forecasts.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4973769/

It indicates a city, like so many that rely on tourism, that look to ways to increase tourism and hence expand their businesses. The problem is that the need to expand tourism outweighed the need to protect the city. A sad, but prescient tale.

NEW ORLEANS - The state is more than $10 million short of $15 million due to the New Orleans Saints on July 1, because of the crash in tourism after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The payment is part of a $186 million deal worked out in 2001 to keep the team in Louisiana.

It was not clear what will happen if the state cannot meet its side of the agreement.

ljb
09-05-2005, 12:46 PM
It truly is weird that the everything was fine during the Clinton yrs and then the last 8 the whole damn infrastructure of the U.S. suddenly went to hell.
Lefty,
The infrastructure has been going to hell for a long time, even prior to the Clinton years and during them.

boxcar
09-05-2005, 01:26 PM
I tend to agree that the federal response was criminally slow. And your right cutting funds exacerbated the situation.

Whenever a Liberal says that funds were "cut", this is what is almost always meant: The increase in funds over the prior year's budget wasn't as large as they wanted. Hardly ever does it mean that the "cut" represents an actual decrease in funds to what was received in the prior budget.

To those of you who live on URANUS, permit me to illustrate in a small way what I mean:

An employee of a certain company is up for a raise. According to company policy, he could get up to a 10% increase if he were to receive high marks on his performance evaluation. However, in this particular case, this employee mised the mark considerably for various reasons, and received a mediocre evalutation which resulted in him receiving only a 5% increase in his wages.

This employee, upon receiving his evaluation and learnning what raise he would receive, complained vehmently that his pay was "cut". Why? Because he didn't get what he wanted. He didn't get the whole pie, just half of it in this example. But the worst that could be said was that the size of the increase was "cut", but certainly not his wages.

So it is with federal budgetary concerns. An agency or department or whatever wants "X" amount of dollars increase over last year's budget, but receives, instead, only "Y" amount -- which still amounts to more money than they received in the previous year. Nonetheless, to a liberal's way of reckoning these things, the lower amount amounts to a "cut".

So...I must ask you liberals out there: Did the Corps of Engineers actually receive fewer budegetary dollars compared to the previous year's budget, or did they just not receive the kind of increase they wanted?

Boxcar

JustRalph
09-05-2005, 01:29 PM
try this article on for size. it is pretty long............

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026


An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

by Robert Tracinski
Sep 02, 2005

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

hcap
09-05-2005, 01:35 PM
Sec,

Removing the poor prior to Katrina would have been the most effective plan of all.

Providing independent sources of power, food and water stashed in the dome or convention center, would have gone a long way to alleviate suffering. Believe me I am not defending bush and FEMA, but think about it, let's say you were in charge. You knew congress had not heeded your warnings and your dire situation-going back 20+years. What do you do? You know probably better than the idiots in washington how bad it will be. How much will it cost to retrofit the dome or convention center? 10 million? 20 million? 50 million?? How much would it have cost to plan and implement busing say half the poor out of harms way? Another 20 million?

The problem is that the local-state and city-knew as well as the feds if not better, all the warnings. Unless you can show me that evacuation plans were not possible either by lack of funds or manpower denied them by the administration, they are also responsible for the disaster as much as Chertoff and Brown.

You know I have publically admitted I HATE BUSH. Over the years, it has reached a point where I cannot comfortably watch or listen to the man. I find myself yelling at him while he smirks his way through press conferences.
But I just can't accept his ineptitude as non-carring in this situation.

I have indicated that NOLA is strategically important and that the DHS under it's mandate is hugely responsible for its' well being. Remember the 911 changed everything mantra Bullshit.


http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

Preparing America

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

Over the next weeks or months a clearer picture of the stupid politics and lack of foresight will emerge. I may place bush in focus more. At this point tho, I will only fault him for his aloofness and awful choices of Chertoff and Brown.

There is enough blame to go around.

chickenhead
09-05-2005, 01:44 PM
Hcap I agree 100%. How much would it have cost to have water available at the Superdome? Put in some damn elevated water tanks...and fill them with water. It's not rocket science. Food? Stash a few thousand cases of twinkies somewhere...they'll be (as) good as new whenever you get around to eating them. Tom brought up boats..what does it cost for 500 or a 1000 aluminum boats with outboards? Not much..put them in a warehouse somewhere close, above the floodplain. Two or three days notice even is enough to get a hell of a good start on this stuff...not to mention the YEARS they have had.

The problem I have with bureacracy, is they hardly ever get the easy stuff right.

hcap
09-05-2005, 02:14 PM
Chick a seperate power supply could have kept ventilation going if not some marginal Ac. Some basic plumbing as well. If one had engineering forsight some toilets could have even used crudely filtered flood waters, and temporary holding tanks.


More importantly tens of thousands could have been transported in as orderly a fashion as possible before the storm hit to these strenghtened facilities.

People should have trained to vacate their homes and seek shelter.
Remember fire drills, in elementary school? At least a public education campaign showing the harsh realities could have convinced many to seek shelter in these beefed up facilities.

Tom
09-05-2005, 02:46 PM
Just suppose that No had planned half as much for this very real possibility as they do for the Madis Gras!

They had a couple of days notice and just opeing the prison gates was their solution?

The people of No were sold out by local "leaders" and God knows how many died needlesly while thier govenor and mayor played politics.

My opinion, Bush should have just stepped and taken over on Day2, the hell with the law. Can you imagine the howls from our local 3 stooges if he had done that?

hcap
09-05-2005, 03:06 PM
boxcar
Whenever a Liberal says that funds were "cut", this is what is almost always meant: The increase in funds over the prior year's budget wasn't as large as they wanted. Hardly ever does it mean that the "cut" represents an actual decrease in funds to what was received in the prior budget.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050207/ai_n10176537
New Orleans CityBusiness, Feb 7, 2005 by Deon Roberts
In general, funding for construction has been on a downward trend for the past several years, said Marcia Demma, chief of the New Orleans Corps' programs management branch.

In 2001, the New Orleans district spent $147 million on construction projects. When fiscal year 2005 wraps up Sept. 30, the Corps expects to have spent $82 million, a 44.2 percent reduction from 2001 expenditures.

Demma said NOC expects its construction budget to be slashed again this year, which means local construction companies won't receive work from the Corps and residents won't see any new hurricane protection projects.

Demma said she couldn't say exactly how much construction funding will be cut until the president's budget is released today. But it's down, she said.

Box, can the lib/con crap. The problem is larger than our philosophies. Too many people died and suffered.

The actual monies were cut. But if you read the rest of my posts, I am not only blaming the feds. I also said this responding to Sec....

"The problem is that the local-state and city-knew as well as the feds if not better, all the warnings. Unless you can show me that evacuation plans were not possible either by lack of funds or manpower denied them by the administration, they are also responsible for the disaster as much as Chertoff and Brown."

boxcar
09-05-2005, 03:09 PM
Lest you forget, 'cap, that dimwit mayor in NO refused to have people transported in school buses because those buses didn't have toilets in them. His priorty was providing "amenities", not saving lives. He specifically requested that hundreds of Greyhound buses come into the city to transport the pooooor. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

hcap
09-05-2005, 03:19 PM
Box, I didn't know that. But I wouldn't be suprised.
Got a reliable link?

I am assumimg you have read my other posts.

No way do I excuse the locals, but I think you have ta concede the feds dropped the ball as well. Remember the strategic value of the gulf and it's importance from the perspective of homeland security. If you can just for a moment forget about the horrific human tragedy, and consider the responsibilities of DHS in a post 911 world. Look at it from a stategic point of view. Don't you agree Chertoff and Brown should be out?

doophus
09-05-2005, 04:17 PM
Also, 'cap, every hospital had aux generators and full tanks of diesel, but once the on-hand fuel was used, there was no way to deliver more fuel. Therefore, those in the flooded area had to wait even longer while they evacuated every hospital in NO, even, finally, the Vets Hosp.

Lack of boats and motors wasn't the problem; many of us offered ours. However, we civilians were refused because of the shooting/looting. The total breakdown of the NO police department was the major problem. NOPD officers looting while in uniform and on duty, assisting looters while in uniform and on duty.

Concerning the breeched levee.....if the NO district of the Corps had double their budget requests, they would have done NOTHING to the 17th Street canal levee. It had already been built up and concreted.

As bad as it is, we should be thankful that Katrina didn't make landfall in Morgan City. That would have saved most of the Mississippi Gulf Coast, but NO would probably look like Gulfport/Biloxi and the rest of the Gulf petroleum industry would be in ruins.

Anyway, let's immediately begin the evacuation of Portland and Seattle and points between. Maybe Memphis and St Louis? what about Miami? Oh, my Lord, don't forget W. Yellowstone! :bang: :confused:

To confirm the opinion of Louisiana politics, Mayor Nagin has become a hometown hero. Rumor is that he will be the Demo candidate, whether Blanco chooses to run again or not.

Now, back to my labors.........

boxcar
09-05-2005, 07:49 PM
try this article on for size. it is pretty long............

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026


An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

by Robert Tracinski
Sep 02, 2005

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

The length of an article is only a problem whenever it's not well written. That wasn't the case with yours. Thanks, JR, for a very good read.

Below is a link I found that essentially talks about the same thing -- the bureacracy of big government and the handout mentality. The context is set in hurricane Andrew. Yes, there were plenty of problems that ensued on Lawton Chiles' watch ("coincidentally " another Liberal), regarding rescue, relief efforts, etc.

But the note the completely different mentality and set of moral values when another monster storm (Hugo) smashed into a little little rural fishing village in SC several years earlier. Here are a few paragraphs taken from the end of that large piece:

It needn't have been this way. Miami didn't have to go down the path of entitlements and protectionism and lining up at the trough. McClellanville didn't.

You've probably never heard of McClellanville, and that's part of the explanation for why its path diverges from that of Miami. McClellanville is a flinty little fishing village of 450 or so souls, located in the middle of nowhere about 35 miles north of Charleston, South Carolina. Most people can't even find McClellanville on a map, but Hurricane Hugo had no trouble locating it in 1989. The town was battered by 138-mile-an-hour winds and a 20-foot storm surge. In short, it was the Homestead of Hurricane Hugo.

Except McClellanville didn't have a big Knight-Ridder newspaper or high-powered network-owned television stations to proclaim its status as a victim. It didn't have any sleek politicians to pound on doors in Washington. McClellanville didn't really have anything. "I think I heard the governor say once that the state would rebuild the docks, which is a pretty big deal in a fishing village," recalls Debbie Thames, who with her husband owns the local hardware store. "But every dock I know of that got rebuilt, it was done by the guy who owns it."

In McClellanville, it never occurred to anyone that the federal government would come rebuild their town. Instead, the citizens got to work a few hours after the hurricane. They dug their own homes out of the mud and the slime that Hugo left behind; then they went next door and dug their neighbors out. They went on that way for months. There was help from outside, of course, especially from private charities, and nobody in McClellanville felt shy about taking it. But no one counted on it, either.

Three years later, most of the scars left by Hugo have disappeared. Folks hardly even talk about it anymore–or didn't, until Andrew. Since then they've been watching the news stories out of Miami with interest. Once in a while, a reporter calls to ask if the people of McClellanville have any advice for the people of Miami. They always choose their words painstakingly.

"I don't want to insult your community," Thames says carefully. "But I think that, in certain respects, you're going about things wrong down there. This thing is an act of God–there isn't anyone responsible for it. It's done, and you just have to put it behind you and get on with it. There's always a lot of political hype after a disaster. But when it comes down to clearing away the rubble and debris and getting started on the rebuilding, you'd better do it yourself."

Just wait: The 8 Billion aid package that Homestead received from the Feds to rebuild that community will pale by comparision to what NO will be demanding.

http://reason.com/9301/fe.garvin.shtml

Boxcar

doophus
09-05-2005, 08:24 PM
Boxcar....

Just off the press here in Baton Rouge, the mayor, et al, met today with Tom Delay. From that meeting they are to submit requests totaling 10-15 billion. And this is just for the City metro area.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Sec,

Removing the poor prior to Katrina would have been the most effective plan of all.

Providing independent sources of power, food and water stashed in the dome or convention center, would have gone a long way to alleviate suffering. Believe me I am not defending bush and FEMA, but think about it, let's say you were in charge. You knew congress had not heeded your warnings and your dire situation-going back 20+years. What do you do? You know probably better than the idiots in washington how bad it will be. How much will it cost to retrofit the dome or convention center? 10 million? 20 million? 50 million?? How much would it have cost to plan and implement busing say half the poor out of harms way? Another 20 million?

The problem is that the local-state and city-knew as well as the feds if not better, all the warnings. Unless you can show me that evacuation plans were not possible either by lack of funds or manpower denied them by the administration, they are also responsible for the disaster as much as Chertoff and Brown.

Hcap,
I always respect your posts, but disagree with a couple of things.

1. Under the Homeland Security Act of 2002, passed by Congress and signed into law by George W. Bush, primary responsibility for any emergenccy of this magnitude ALWAYS falls to the Department of Homeland Security.

The Department of Homeland Security and FEMA are responsible under the law. Any other responsibility must be considered secondary to the responsibility held by the DHS and FEMA under the law.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/terrorism/hsa2002.pdf

2. “Removing the poor from Katrina would have been the best plan.” I suppose there is where we may have the most disagreement. The amount of time from the increase of strength in the Gulf to gathering all the poor, co-ordinating buses and drivers, and then evacuating them in the face of the storm is in my mind untenable. Getting people hunkered down to the Superdome was the quickest and safest thing that could be done. Just looking at how long it took to evacuate people from the Dome to Houston after the storm was a very long process. You don’t do this as a storm is approaching in a short period of time especially in lieu that the hurricane can switch directions at any moment.

3. Retrofit the Dome. A good idea in hindsite for emergencies, except NO did not have any money. They were in deificts. Since 911 tourism has been significantly down in NO, and the motel and hotel taxes added to help with a “streetcar” project and to bring a basketball team to NO has lead to large deficits. In fact the Saints were saying the City owed them 15 million. They had no millions to “retrofit the Dome” . I’m not even sure legally the city government has jurisidiction over the Dome.

While the left chooses to lay the blame on Bush, FEMA, and Homeland Security, the spin from the right is to blame the Governor and Mayor. Let’s hope Congress and Bush embrace Hilary Clinton’s request for a new commission as followed the 911 commission to find out where the blame truly lies as the citizens of New Orleans deserve some real answers.

boxcar
09-05-2005, 08:47 PM
Boxcar....

Just off the press here in Baton Rouge, the mayor, et al, met today with Tom Delay. From that meeting they are to submit requests totaling 10-15 billion. And this is just for the City metro area.

Thanks for the update, doophus. I'm not surprised a bit.

Boxcar

JustRalph
09-05-2005, 08:56 PM
yep, that is what we need.........another piece of crap commission to hand the Dems an official bitch report.

This crap is getting way thick with political bitching. I am starting to wonder what a few extra bulldozers and couple of sticks of dynomite would cost.........push it all in the ocean and walk away.............

boxcar
09-05-2005, 08:58 PM
Hcap,
I always respect your posts, but disagree with a couple of things.

1. Under the Homeland Security Act of 2002, passed by Congress and signed into law by George W. Bush, primary responsibility for any emergenccy of this magnitude ALWAYS falls to the Department of Homeland Security.

The Department of Homeland Security and FEMA are responsible under the law. Any other responsibility must be considered secondary to the responsibility held by the DHS and FEMA under the law.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/terrorism/hsa2002.pdf

Hey, Sec, since you say this, then I have to think that you've waded through the 475 pages of that PDF document to which you've provided the above link? Otherwise, how would you know this, right?

Would you mind providing the precise pertinent statements from that document that will confirm what you allege?

Thanks,
Boxcar

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 09:45 PM
yep, that is what we need.........another piece of crap commission to hand the Dems an official bitch report.

This crap is getting way thick with political bitching. I am starting to wonder what a few extra bulldozers and couple of sticks of dynomite would cost.........push it all in the ocean and walk away.............

Are you saying you don't want to know what actually happened? As to bulldozing into the sea, Bush has already gone on record as promising to rebuild the region.

boxcar
09-05-2005, 10:12 PM
Are you saying you don't want to know what actually happened?

Oh...and all along I've been thinking this was your mission on this forum. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

JustRalph
09-05-2005, 10:22 PM
Are you saying you don't want to know what actually happened? As to bulldozing into the sea, Bush has already gone on record as promising to rebuild the region.

I think it is pretty obvious as to what happen.......if you don't know by now...you haven't been paying attention.

Oh yeah........Bush has promised to rebuild. Just one more thing I disagree with W. on..............

Tom
09-05-2005, 10:38 PM
Re-buildng THERE is just plain stupid.

Didn't anyone learn ANYTHING this week?
Bush just can't resist sending troops somewhere and then re-building it.
Is he going to force feed democracy on NO?

Hey, if they want to rebuild, let THEM pay for it. II say, bulldoze it under and start over.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 10:41 PM
I think it is pretty obvious as to what happen.......if you don't know by now...you haven't been paying attention.

Oh yeah........Bush has promised to rebuild. Just one more thing I disagree with W. on..............

Actually, JR, I don't think it is obvious what exactly happened. Yeah, we know a storm came and a lot of people were killed, but the spin coming from both parties make what "actually happened behind the scenes" a bit difficult to fully know. If we want to avoid this baloney in the future, we better know.

As to rebuilding, at first I wondered as well, but realizing that amount of commerce that comes from that port and goes out that port at the foot of the Mississippi, it would be a huge loss fiscally. As to the residence aspect of it, somehow those levees have to be built to withstand a 5 or beyond a hurricane, and lots and lots more contingencies for this sort of thing.

Box,

If you begin with Page 195 – Title V – Emergency Preparedness and Response and read Sec. 502(a) covers major disasters and other emergencies and then go onto Sec. 503(a) “managing such response”

I’ve also included an excerpt from The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act below (42. U.S.C. 5121).

Section 5192. Sec. 502 - Federal Emergency Assistance

Specified:

“In any emergency , the President may:

(1) direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities, and the resources granted to it under Federal Law … in support of State, and local emergency assistance efforts to save lives, protect property and public health and safety and LESSEN or AVERT the THREAT of a catastrophe.

(2) coordinate ALL disaster relief assitance (including voluntary assistance)provided by Federal agencies and State and local governments

chickenhead
09-05-2005, 10:48 PM
As to the residence aspect of it, somehow those levees have to be built to withstand a 5 or beyond a hurricane, and lots and lots more contingencies for this sort of thing.


Honest question...you're a taxpayer, what is your upper limit you want to spend on a levee system, one that will protect NO from substantial flooding during a Cat 5 hurricane? Just a number please...the maximum.

lsbets
09-05-2005, 10:48 PM
Sec, thanks for pointing out:

in support of state and local efforts

that means the state and local authorities have primary responsibility and the federal government supports their efforts. We have seen what happens when there is no effort from the state and local level. Things went pretty well in MS considering the magnitude of the storm because the local folks had their shit together.

Since you like reading so much, go look up the NO plan for a mahor hurricane. See if they even came close to following that plan (hint: they didn't). If they would have followed the plan they had in place things woud have turned out a lot different.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 10:59 PM
Isbets,

See this is exactly why you should be in support of Hilary's recomendation for a Katrina commission so we can see where culpability lies. I'd lvoe to hear Blanoc and Nagin's testimony, and Bush's and FEMA and Homeland Security. Let's get to the truth instead of reading differing ways the laws read. I read the Homeland Security Act as placing FEMA at the forefront of the mangement of the storm, and I read the Stafford Act detailing the President's responsibiliy to do anything to AVERT loss of life before the storm. You don't agree. So let it come forward or we're destined to relive this adventure again.

lsbets
09-05-2005, 11:06 PM
If I had ever seen a productive government commission or special prosecutor that produced actual results instead of political opportunism, than I would support one. But I haven't seen one yet - and if you're curious, I include Ken Starr's commission as a waste of time and money.

Secretariat
09-05-2005, 11:07 PM
Honest question...you're a taxpayer, what is your upper limit you want to spend on a levee system, one that will protect NO from substantial flooding during a Cat 5 hurricane? Just a number please...the maximum.

I'm not an engineer, but the 3 million that Bush budgeted for 2006 Army Corps of Engineers work isn't going to the job. Certainly, a feasiblity study by the Army Corps of Engineers could be done, if it hasn't been done already, and an estimate presented.

How much? The Port of New Orleans is economically critical to this nation. One would have to factor in the cost to commerce to having a NO versus not having it. I'd have no problem with what was allocated for a year of Iraq.

My question to you is this? If there is no New Orleans, how will all the traffic which flows down the Mississippi get to market and overseas, and how will all the oil which comes into New Orleans and is dispersed via pipelines get to market and at what long term additional costs? As to people, Texas has already stated it cannot take anymore people, yet all these people will most likely relocate in the state they're evacuated to and seek employment in those states. Obviously, there is insufficient work for all those new people, and most likely supporting them will fall on the welfare system to pick up the difference, or unemployment compensation. A huge drain on the govt.

schweitz
09-05-2005, 11:59 PM
Just got back got into town and was reading Sunday's Ft. Worth Star-Telegram. They have a story about the Louisiana levees which was generated from the following sources;Knight Ridder/Tribune, The Associated Press, The Times Picayune, The New York Times News Service, and Star-Telegram research.

"New Orleans has two major levee systems, one controlling periodic flooding of the Mississippi River and the second protecting against storm surges. Engineers knew the system would not survive a catogory 4 hurricane, but OFFICIALS HAVE NEVER AGREED ON-OR FUNDED-A SOLUTION".

Here is the part that is most interesting:

Mississippi River Levees is a federal project. (These levees did not fail.)

Corps of Engineers and local levee districts share in maintenance and construction of lower elevation levees USING DISTRICTS'S PROPERTY TAXES AND STATE FINANCING. ( These are the levees that did fail. )

Lefty
09-06-2005, 12:28 AM
lbj, well duh, that was my point.

PaceAdvantage
09-06-2005, 01:55 AM
Yeah, we know a storm came and a lot of people were killed, but the spin coming from both parties make what "actually happened behind the scenes" a bit difficult to fully know. If we want to avoid this baloney in the future, we better know.

Spin? People are dead and dying, property is destroyed for as far as the eye can see, jobs are destroyed, lives are destroyed, and you continue to bring up the political aspects as if they matter!!

The ONLY politics going on is on the left, which is trying once again to find ways to make this a "bash Bush" event. It would be funny if it weren't so distasteful in the fact that it takes away from the human tragedy that is unfolding there by the minute.

You guys who turn this into a political opportunity have no soul....bottom line.

Secretariat
09-06-2005, 04:28 AM
PA,

If you are unaware that there is major political spin on both sides of this, then you are incredibly naive.

I didn't say both parties aren't extremely concerned for the well being of the citizenry. Chickenhead simply asked me how much I would accept as a cost to fund the project. If you look at his post you'd see that.

I'm simply agreeing with Hilary on this one (btw a rare event for me as I find her trying to accomodate everyone) that a bipartisan commission is better able to assess responsilbity than factions arguing.

Lefty
09-06-2005, 11:54 AM
sec, there's no need to spend money in a commission that will turn out to be a political farce like all others. Time to stop the stupid blame game and just pitch in and help.

PaceAdvantage
09-06-2005, 05:24 PM
PA,

If you are unaware that there is major political spin on both sides of this, then you are incredibly naive.

I didn't say both parties aren't extremely concerned for the well being of the citizenry. Chickenhead simply asked me how much I would accept as a cost to fund the project. If you look at his post you'd see that.

I'm simply agreeing with Hilary on this one (btw a rare event for me as I find her trying to accomodate everyone) that a bipartisan commission is better able to assess responsilbity than factions arguing.

How is the admin spinning? Bush has already admitted things weren't going the way he would have liked at the beginning of this crisis.....

And if they are spinning anymore than this, then it's because of the constant BS attacks from the left.....

And wasn't that commission BILL Clinton's idea? The only time I've read a piece that contained this proposed commission, it was attached to Bill Clinton's name....nowhere did I see Hillary mentioned.

Secretariat
09-06-2005, 08:08 PM
H
And wasn't that commission BILL Clinton's idea? The only time I've read a piece that contained this proposed commission, it was attached to Bill Clinton's name....nowhere did I see Hillary mentioned.

This is part the article from the right wing rag NewsMax.

Bill Clinton Endorses Probe of Katrina 'Failures'

Ex-president Bill Clinton endorsed his wife's call for a Katrina Commission on Monday, to probe what he called "failures" by the Bush administration to respond quickly to the New Orleans flood crisis.

"Our government failed those people in the beginning, and I take it now there is no dispute about it," Clinton told CNN. "One hundred percent of the people recognize that - that it was a failure," he claimed.

On Sunday Hillary Clinton called for the creation of a Katrina Commission, while insisting that the federal response to the hurricane efforts has been inadequate.

Mr. Clinton endorsed his wife's suggestion, and hinted that some "personnel decisions" in the Bush administration needed to be reviewed.

"In a few weeks we should have some sort of a Katrina Commission," he told CNN. "It should be bi-partisan, non-partisan, whatever. And we ought to really look at this as I always tried to: What is the best structure and what are the best personnel decisions you could make."

Returning to the allegations that the rescue effort was bungled, Clinton said, "I personally believe there should be a serious analysis of it. I have my own ideas about what caused it."

Lest anyone miss the point, Clinton repeated midway through his interview: "Yes, they were failed in the beginning by their nation. But we don't want to fail them a second time."

....

According to Bill, his wife's suggestion.

Tom
09-06-2005, 08:52 PM
Fact time.....read this and see wehre the responsiblities lies:

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

[snipet:]
III. EVACUATION ORDER

A. Authority

As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness

Tom
09-06-2005, 08:58 PM
...and this, for a little background about levees and NO flooding history. No stanger to floods, these folks.



Started in 2000. Doesn't that mean that NOTHING was being done during th eCLinton administration and things got rolling on Bush's watch?



Sec - send this to Teddy next tim eyou acknowledge your talking points email.;)



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html



[snipet]

Levee Upgrade

Until the day before Katrina's arrival, New Orleans's 350 miles (560 kilometers) of levees were undergoing a feasibility study to examine the possibility of upgrading them to withstand a Category Four or Five storm.

Corps officials say the study, which began in 2000, will take several years to complete. Upgrading the system would take as long as 20 to 25 years, according to Al Naomi, the Corps' senior project manager for the New Orleans District.

Tom
09-06-2005, 09:00 PM
Deja vous all over again?

Sound familiar?

[snipet]
Eventually, tens of thousands of New Orleanans were directed to the Superdome - where no food, water or living facilities were provided for the massive number of refugees expected to remain there for at least several days. Fortunately few arrived.

Uh, this was IVAN! Lesosns learned: none.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/3/152800.shtml

Tom
09-06-2005, 09:05 PM
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/4/151327.shtml

Opinion piece, but debate the ideas, not the source.

Tom
09-06-2005, 09:08 PM
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46130
[snipet]
Gov. Kathleen Blanco and Nagin both acknowledged after the Ivan near miss they needed a better evacuation plan.


And in true liberal fashion, they did not make one themselves, they waited for someone else to take care of them. In the mayor's own words, maybe HE shoudl get off HIS ass!

Not only are these clowns losers, they are PROUD of it!

doophus
09-07-2005, 04:37 AM
And now we learn that it was Thursday before the governor signed the decree authorizing the mayor to utilize the school busses for evacuation or any other purposes!!

Bobby
09-07-2005, 09:40 AM
Fact time.....read this and see wehre the responsiblities lies:

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

[snipet:]
III. EVACUATION ORDER

A. Authority

As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness


Tom, this is beyond the scope anyone in NO or the state of Louisiana could do. 90% of the city out of commission. & You think the mayor of NO, whose policemen are putting guns to their heads, can contain the looting and evacuate citizens?????????????????????????????????

The feds, in particular, the BUSH administration failed the people of Louisiana, TX, Arkansas, GA, TN and so on.

From the AP:

Even Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, La., said on NBC-TV’s Meet the Press on Sunday that if "the American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn’t be in this crisis."

Come on TOM, a corporation responded more than FEMA or the Bush Administration. Y all the investigations then?

DJofSD
09-07-2005, 10:04 AM
The feds, in particular, the BUSH administration failed the people of Louisiana, TX, Arkansas, GA, TN and so on.

From the AP:

Even Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, La., said on NBC-TV’s Meet the Press on Sunday that if "the American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn’t be in this crisis."

I can't get over it. Blame, blame, blame. Find fault first then deny then change the focus somewhere else to avoid an accurate, unbiased examination of the FACTS.

And since when does a quotation that's nothing more than an opinion prove anything, it just adds to the political spin. "You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows."

The real important question is what is Emirel Lagasse going to do now?

DJofSD

lsbets
09-07-2005, 10:35 AM
Bobby - the local police and national guard are the ones who have to deal with law enforcement issues like containing the looting. That's not an option, that's the law. It was their job to do and they failed to do it.

And WTF does Texas, Georgia, Arkansas, and Tenn have to do with it?

Bobby
09-07-2005, 10:50 AM
And WTF does Texas, Georgia, Arkansas, and Tenn have to do with it?


B/C those states are only gonna be reimbursed a fraction of the cost that it takes to house and feed and support these people. Its a drain on local resources.

lsbets
09-07-2005, 10:56 AM
Well Bobby, I'm sorry if you feel that its a drain on Arkansas to take care of these people. Here in Texas we just think its the right thing to do, regardless of the cost. And whether or not everyone involved acted sooner before the storm and during the aftermath, we would still have all these people here. But it doesn't matter, Americans need help and we've opened our doors to them. I'm sorry if you find that to be too expensive where you are.

JustMissed
09-07-2005, 10:59 AM
Thought it would be interesting to review the National Guard mission statement.

Looks like in the case of state emergencies, the ANG is under control of Governor.

"The Army National Guard exists in all 50 states, three territories and the District of Columbia. The state, territory or district leadership are the Commanders in Chief for each Guard. Their Adjutants General are answerable to them for the training and readiness of the units. At the state level, the governors reserve the ability, under the Constitution of the United States, to call up members of the National Guard in time of domestic emergencies or need.

The Army National Guard's state mission is perhaps the most visible and well known. Nearly everyone has seen or heard of Guard units responding to battle fires or helping communities deal with floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, snowstorms or other emergency situations. In times of civil unrest, the citizens of a state can rest assured that the Guard will be ready to respond, if needed."

Maybe it has changed since Homeland Security and the ANG did not get the memo, but I always thought the first responders to an emergency were local fire, police, etc., then state folks, then backed up by the ANG.

FEMA, Red Cross, Salvation Army,etc. are not first responders and only enter the picture when directed by local and state folk and most certainly when conditions are safe.

Where am I going wrong?

JM

boxcar
09-07-2005, 11:01 AM
Tom, this is beyond the scope anyone in NO or the state of Louisiana could do. 90% of the city out of commission. & You think the mayor of NO, whose policemen are putting guns to their heads, can contain the looting and evacuate citizens?????????????????????????????????

Ahh...it was "beyond the scope" Frick and Frack?

Questions:

Why did Frick and Frack procrastinate so long before declaring a state of ermegency and before ordering a mandatory evacuation? It seem to me that it's a wee bit disingenuous to blame the Feds for their decisions to delay . Why didn't the mayor mobilize everyone and get the people out of town before the storm became too big for the city to handle?

Why weren't Frick 'n' Frat able to reason that the longer they procrastinated, the higher the risks became? Did these two yo-yos have lapses of memory and forget that NO is below sea level? That it's a very dangerous place to be during any large storm?

To what should we liken this situation? A man detects a large raging fire in his house and calls 911 for help. The operator dept. tells him to get out the of the house now. But he decides to delay escaping the fire so that he can he gan gather some of his valuables to take with him. But alas, he delays so long that he'sovercome by smoke. When the firemen arrived at the scene ten minutes later, they discovered his body.

Now the man's wife is blaming the fire dept. because if they had only arrived sooner, her husband would still be alive. And the while the fire dept experienced a slight day in getting to the scene, nonetheless the inescapable fact is that her husband could have escaped if he had left right after his call to 911.

Why did the husband ignore his own safety? What made him think that the fire was not going to get worse? What made him think that the fire dept. was going to get there in time to save the day for him?

And so it was with Frick 'n' Frat. They waited. They procrastinated. They waited some more. Then more indecision. After all this, the storm is beyond their control, and now, like the wife in my analogy, you Libs are blaming the Feds for not getting there in time. For not taking charge of the situation. For letting the storm rage out of control.

But indulge me for a few more minutes. Let's say that Bush ordered the Feds into LA even though Gov BlancLook didn't want them. Even though she never declared a state of emergencey. Even though the mayor never enforced his late mandatory evacuation order of his city. Would Bush have been a hero? Yeah, right? :rolleyes: Here is how the headlines would have looked for the next few weeks:

Bush a Tyrant, says Gov Blanco

Bush Illegally Seized Power, says Mayor

Bush Storms LA and Breaks the Law

Bush Ignores the Rule of Law by Storming LA

Bush is a Lawbreaker

Impeach Bush for Not Upholding Constitution

yada, yada, and yada.

It would have gone this way because Bush just can't do what's right in the eyes of libs -- our of their irrational, unjustified hate of the man.

Boxcar

lsbets
09-07-2005, 11:10 AM
Thought it would be interesting to review the National Guard mission statement.

Looks like in the case of state emergencies, the ANG is under control of Governor.

"The Army National Guard exists in all 50 states, three territories and the District of Columbia. The state, territory or district leadership are the Commanders in Chief for each Guard. Their Adjutants General are answerable to them for the training and readiness of the units. At the state level, the governors reserve the ability, under the Constitution of the United States, to call up members of the National Guard in time of domestic emergencies or need.

The Army National Guard's state mission is perhaps the most visible and well known. Nearly everyone has seen or heard of Guard units responding to battle fires or helping communities deal with floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, snowstorms or other emergency situations. In times of civil unrest, the citizens of a state can rest assured that the Guard will be ready to respond, if needed."

Maybe it has changed since Homeland Security and the ANG did not get the memo, but I always thought the first responders to an emergency were local fire, police, etc., then state folks, then backed up by the ANG.

FEMA, Red Cross, Salvation Army,etc. are not first responders and only enter the picture when directed by local and state folk and most certainly when conditions are safe.

Where am I going wrong?

JM

Nowhere JM, that is the way things are set up to work.

DJofSD
09-07-2005, 11:46 AM
From IsBets: But it doesn't matter, Americans need help and we've opened our doors to them. I'm sorry if you find that to be too expensive where you are.

I'm sure San Diego is not any different than all the rest of the country when it comes to aid and assistance. Private individuals are spending a lot of their own money to send help, provide assistance and even chartering private jets to bring 80 people out of the disaster area. The local state university is setting up living arrangements in one of the gym's to house some of the victims. The local talk radio station is today doing a marathon to raise literally a ton of money. There are many other activities.

Yes, Americans do respond.

DJofSD

Lefty
09-07-2005, 11:50 AM
Bobby, maybe if they hadn't turned the criminals in jail loose on the city the lootiing wouldn't have been as bad. Maybe if they had utilized those 2000 school busses things wouldn't have been as bad. Maybe if they had actually implemented the disaster and evacuation plan they had things wouldn't have been as bad. Try as the left might, they can't spin this into a GW Bush failure.
What do other states have to do with it? Because we are the UNITED States.

JustRalph
09-07-2005, 12:31 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344065p-293598c.html

Interesting article......... I have spoken of the character of N.O. being revealed. This article makes some points that I wasn't aware of..........I am truly afraid of what is going to happen in some of the cities that accept these so called "refugee's"

~Snippet~


Start with crime. That looters ran unchecked after the hurricane isn't surprising when you consider that criminals have had the run of the city for years.

It is a perennial contender for Murder Capital. The 264 homicides last year were a drop of only 11 from 2003 - and the first decline in five years.

New Orleans, with fewer than 500,000 people, had almost half the murders of New York, which had 570 homicides last year in a city of more than 8 million. Put another way, if New York had New Orleans' murder rate, we would have more than 4,200 murders a year. That the New Orleans police are hardly the Finest was proven by a shocking report yesterday: Nearly a third of New Orleans cops - some 500 of the 1,600 - are now unaccounted for. The department says some quit, but it doesn't know where most of them are.

boxcar
09-07-2005, 12:41 PM
Yes, Americans do respond.

DJofSD

Exactly! And it's we Americans who make this country so great -- not the Federal Government. Not FEMA. Not DHS. It's all the people (and corporations) who [/b]make things happen[/b].

Anything the government will do will pale by comparison to the innumerable human interest stories that are coming out and will continue for many months due to this disaster.

Boxcar

Secretariat
09-07-2005, 01:06 PM
But indulge me for a few more minutes. Let's say that Bush ordered the Feds into LA even though Gov BlancLook didn't want them. Even though she never declared a state of emergencey. Boxcar

Why do you and O'Leilly and Newt keep lying about her not declaring a state of emergency? How many times does it have to be posted she declared a state of emrgency on Aug .26th and yet you still persist?

FOX News – Sept. 5th O’Reilly Factor - O’Reilly interviewing Gingrich transcript

NEWT GINGRICH, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST:
….
As you point out, the governor failed to call it an emergency And initially, it was the governor who had to call an emergency.
….

August 26,2005

GOVERNOR BLANCO DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY

BATON ROUGE, LA--Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco today issued Proclamation No. 48 KBB 2005, declaring a state of emergency for the state Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat, carrying severe storms, high winds, and torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the citizens of the state of Louisiana The state of emergency extends from Friday, August 26, 2005, through Sunday, September 25, 2005, unless terminated sooner.

boxcar
09-07-2005, 01:22 PM
Sec, where is the link to this declared emergency?

Nothing personall. I'd like to see documentation.

Your buddy LJB went linkless when I asked him about a quote that he alleged Bush made.

Boxcar

JustMissed
09-07-2005, 02:22 PM
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973

Gov Blanco did in fact declare a State of Emergency on 8/26/2005.

I don't understand why folks keep saying that she waited till the Friday after the storm hit.

I read on some other Blogs that Bush tried to get Blanco to sign over her powers to the Feds so that the Feds would take over control of the NO situation.

Blanco smelled a "rat" as signing that document would give the Feds the power to also rebuild NO via giving all the juicy contracts to their buddies down in Houston.

I don't know if that is true or not but it would make sense that if Bush/Cheney were unable to strong arm Blanco, they would slow FEMA down enough to make Blanco look bad and cut a deal with Mayor Nagin to get him to side-up with Bush against Blanco.

If Nagin had just gotten those folks bused out of the Superdom and Blanco had gotten someone to take some water, food & Drs. to those folks on the highway bridges, things wouldn't look so bad for the LA officials.

I'm sure the truth is being covered up as I type but I would not be suprised if Mayor Nagin doesn't end up working for Haliburton and Gov Blanco doesn't end up trajectly.

JM

schweitz
09-07-2005, 02:42 PM
I don't know if that is true or not but it would make sense that if Bush/Cheney were unable to strong arm Blanco, they would slow FEMA down enough to make Blanco look bad and cut a deal with Mayor Nagin to get him to side-up with Bush against Blanco.



You are completely out of your mind!

Bobby
09-07-2005, 02:47 PM
It's Rove who's calling the shots, at least from a political standpoint.

To the dim & the blurred on this board:

Why are feds calling for all kinds of investigations if they were "on-time" and didn't screw up?

Even Delay has said the govt was slow to respond

That Bulldog, hastert, cant help but run his mouth.

lsbets
09-07-2005, 03:02 PM
To the dim & the blurred on this board:

I don't think I've ever seen someone talk to themselves on a message board before.

JustMissed
09-07-2005, 03:41 PM
You are completely out of your mind!

This snippet from tvnz.com:

"He said he would lead an investigation to find out what "went right and what went wrong" in order to improve coordination between federal, state and local authorities because of the possibility of future crises.

"It's very important for us to understand the relationship between the federal government, the state government and the local government when it comes to a major catastrophe," Bush said.

"And the reason it's important is, is that we still live in an unsettled world. We want to make sure that we can respond properly if there's a WMD (weapons of mass destruction) attack or another major storm. And so I'm going to find out over time what went right and what went wrong," he added.

Continuing a string of visits to the region by top officials, Vice President Dick Cheney will travel to the disaster zone on Thursday, Bush said.

While calling some of the relief efforts unacceptable, Bush has not publicly singled out anyone for criticism although there has been some finger-pointing between state, federal and local authorities."

WHY SEND CHENEY TO HELP WITH THE INVESTIGATION?

Bush already has Gov Haley Barbour in his back pocket.

Why not send Cheney down to see what he can shake out of Louisiana?

Just wait a few days til the cleanup contracts start coming. There will be a line of Republican donors with pen in hand so long it will stretch from Houston to New Orleans along I10 and will look like the refuges returning.

Just because I know how business is done doesn't mean I'm out of my mind.

By the way, these contracts won't be let based on lowest and best bid. They won't even be approved by OMB.

The contracts will be awarded by the Director of Homeland Security, after approval by Dick Cheney.

Of course the Mayor of NO will pretend he has some input but you can bet your ass the Gov of Louisiana will be cut out of the loop.

Just wait, the truth is out there.


JM

P.s. Just an aside. I bet one of the first things out of Cheney's mouth after he hits the ground will be something along the line:"We've got to start making preparation for the re-building as soon as possible."

schweitz
09-07-2005, 03:50 PM
it would make sense that if Bush/Cheney were unable to strong arm Blanco, they would slow FEMA down



Since you JUSTMISSED it this is why you are out of your mind.

JustMissed
09-07-2005, 03:50 PM
Oh, I forgot to say why they can't send Karl Rove to New Orleans.

Karl cannot be close to levies, he cause too may "leaks". :lol:


JM

Bobby
09-07-2005, 03:55 PM
Oh, I forgot to say why they can't send Karl Rove to New Orleans.

Karl cannot be close to levies, he cause too may "leaks". :lol:


JM


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

JustMissed
09-07-2005, 05:07 PM
Since you JUSTMISSED it this is why you are out of your mind.

You need to understand the difference between a State of Emergency and Marital Law. Sorry for posting such a long article but it describes the Bush-Blanco conflict.

Gov Blanco declared a State of Emergency as required under Louisiana law and was looking for assitance from FEMA and the National Guard and anyone else that would help.

Using the looting in NO as the bait, Bush shows up with a written request for Blanco to sign requesting that he(Bush)declare Martial Law under the Insurrection Act. I am just guessing but I bet Bush presented it as if Mayor Hagin had lost control of the city and this was the last resort.

Knowing that if she signed the request to invoke the Insurrection Act, she would be giving away all future control over cleanup and rebuilding-she said thanks but no thanks.

As late as Wednesday night, Hagin had been highly critical of Bush and FEMA and had reamed him a new asshole on a radio show Wednesday night.

Next thing you know, Bush takes Hagin for a helicopter ride, promises him all the money in the world and now they are best of friends.

I would pray that Bush would never slow down the efforts of FEMA in a manner to cause harm to any poor soul, but there are bureucratic ways to "give the appearance" of non-cooperation that would cause one to sign any type of paper just to get some mental relief. If you had Mayor Hagin and his cronies in control of the "pearl" of your state-you would be just as stressed out and overwelmed as she was.

Anyway, just stick around. The Katrina book is sure to be interesting reading.

JM



This from the nola.com site:

"Extraordinary, but not 'martial law'

Sunday, 4:05 p.m.

By Susan Finch
Staff writer

“Martial law” isn’t a law at all.

But the term has been invoked over and over in the week since Hurricane Katrina struck to describe the enhanced authority assumed by public officials, restrictions on access to some public streets and the presence of armed federal soldiers roaming parts of the New Orleans area.

Some public officials do invoke extraordinary authority during emergencies, under a 12-year-old Louisiana law. But the presence of active duty military personnel does not mean martial law has been declared. The role of the active military thus far has been to help the Federal Emergency Management Agency with humanitarian work, search and rescue efforts, medical assistance and supply distribution – not to enforce civil law, a military spokesman said.

The National Guard is helping enforce civil law in the hurricane zone. They were pressed into service by Gov. Kathleen Blanco.

A true state of martial law would also put the active military in a law enforcement role. That rarely happens. Martial law was indeed declared during labor strikes in the early 20th century and during the Watts riots of 1965 in Los Angeles, said John Baker, constitutional law professor at Louisiana State University.

All other times, the U.S. system of government is set up to give the states and their own police the primary responsibility to protect citizens against domestic violence, with the federal government being called on only as a backup when the state is overwhelmed.

“If a governor will call and say, ‘I no longer have the ability to secure my state, I need help,’ the president could invoke the Insurrection Act and the military could assist in law enforcement activities,” said a U.S. Northern Command lawyer who spoke on the condition that he not be identified by name. “That is not what we are doing.”

Baker said martial law is not a written law but has been recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court as a legal concept.

“It’s a suspension of law, and the term goes way back and it’s linked to what is called the law of necessity,” doing what is necessary in extreme situations, Baker said. “The question is whether, quite apart from law, there is inherent power to those charged with order in the community to keep it from descending into chaos and insurrection.”

What is written is the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993. Under this law, the governor and some top parish officials, such as Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, have the right to commandeer private property if necessary to cope with an emergency. Specific officials may also suspend any law related to the conduct of official business or any rule previously issued by a state agency if complying would “prevent, hinder or delay necessary action” to mitigate the emergency, the state attorney general’s office said last week.

The law also gives specific officials the right to compel evacuations, suspend alcohol and weapon sales and make provisions for emergency housing, the office said.

Mayors assume similar authority, although not the right to commandeer private property or arrange emergency housing, the office said.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco invoked this 1993 law when she declared a state of emergency last week. Broussard himself has described Jefferson as being “under martial law, and there’s only one marshal: Me.”

Broussard has announced that Jefferson Parish is closed to all residents and visitors, and indeed police are staffing roadblocks on highways entering Jefferson. Despite widespread criticism from other public officials and utility companies, Broussard is letting residents return Monday for a brief time but ordering them out again until streets are clear, power restored and the water supply made safe for drinking.

Baker said Louisiana must take care not to “fall into the notion that you look first and primarily to the military to run things.

“The military are not police officers generally; their job is to fight a war. That’s totally different from a police function unless people want to turn this country into other countries where you have the military running the police force, which you did in Central America.”

schweitz
09-07-2005, 05:16 PM
I would pray that Bush would never slow down the efforts of FEMA in a manner to cause harm to any poor soul

It is my opinion that if you believe that this was even possible you are living in a very different world than I am.

Secretariat
09-07-2005, 07:08 PM
Sec, where is the link to this declared emergency?

Nothing personall. I'd like to see documentation.

Your buddy LJB went linkless when I asked him about a quote that he alleged Bush made.

Boxcar

Just Missed beat me posting the link, but here's another if you want. just Google it. There's pages of links on it. Here's two.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4836

So, let's get past posting this inaccuracy. It's been debunked.

Btw..Here’s one for JR since he likes posting articles from the NY Daily News.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/344004p-293718c.html

ljb
09-07-2005, 07:18 PM
Boxcar,
Refresh my memory. what quote is that?

lsbets
09-07-2005, 07:26 PM
When was the mandatory evacuation order issued?

ljb
09-07-2005, 07:30 PM
Sec,
Boxcar suddenly went blank when I asked him how he liked having his insurance subsidized by you and me ?

ljb
09-07-2005, 07:31 PM
When was the mandatory evacuation order issued?
Don't know when it was issued but this is what I heard on national news this evening. "While this is just a mandatory evacuation, the mayor has not yet resorted to force to remove those who refuse to leave." ???

lsbets
09-07-2005, 07:50 PM
I was actually referring to the mandatory evacuation before the storm hit, but yeah, this is another one of those voluntary mandatory evacuations.

Tom
09-07-2005, 08:46 PM
It's Rove who's calling the shots, at least from a political standpoint.

To the dim & the blurred on this board:

Why are feds calling for all kinds of investigations if they were "on-time" and didn't screw up?

Even Delay has said the govt was slow to respond

That Bulldog, hastert, cant help but run his mouth.


Do YOU live in a bowl by the shore next to a lake?
Somehow, I gave the picture of you.

Secretariat
09-07-2005, 10:27 PM
I was actually referring to the mandatory evacuation before the storm hit, but yeah, this is another one of those voluntary mandatory evacuations.

Isbets,

August 28th.

The order given recently is a forced evacuation which could get rather ugly in some cases.

Nagin orders mandatory evacuation in face of Katrina

10:11 AM CDT on Sunday, August 28, 2005
WWLTV.com

Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans in the face of Category-5 Katrina which was expected to make a direct strike on the city early Monday.

Nagin said that the predicted tidal surges and heavy rains could mean widespread flooding and power outages that could last for some time.
The order extends to everyone in the city of New Orleans with the following exceptions: Essential military and law enforcement personnel from the city and state, regulated utilities employees, essential members of the media, hospital employees and their patients, medical personnel, Criminal Sheriff's personnel and inmates and hotels and their patrons.

Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.
He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.

Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing.

His pickup spots were:
Martin Luther King Elementary.
William Franz Elementary.
Warren Easton High School.
Israel Augustine School.
McMain Magnet School.
Sylvanie Williams Elementary School.
Rabouin School.
Arthur Mondy in Algiers.
O. Perry Walker High School.
Abramson High School.
Sara T. Reed School
New Orleans Mission

Lefty
09-07-2005, 10:43 PM
sec wrote:Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

So I wonder why he just let all those school busses sit?

lsbets
09-07-2005, 10:45 PM
Okay, so the mandatory evacuation order was issued about 24 hours prior to the storm hitting land, how was it enforced?

Tor Ekman
09-07-2005, 10:48 PM
Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

Well, then why did Mayor Nagin and the City not do so???????

doophus
09-07-2005, 10:56 PM
From Ron Gomez, formerly a Loosianna State Representative:

"On Friday night before the storm hit, Max Mayfield of
the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented
action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead
with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they
said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.

President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in
meetings with his advisors and administrators drafting
all of the paperwork required for a state to request
federal assistance (and not be in violation of the
Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency
Act). Just before midnight Friday evening the President
called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign
the request papers so the federal government and the
military could legally begin mobilization and call up.
He was told that they didn't think it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet.

After the President's final call to the governor, she
held meetings with her staff to discuss the political
ramifications of bringing in federal forces. It was
decided that if they allowed federal assistance it
would make it look as if they had failed; so, it was
agreed that the feds would not be invited in.


Saturday before the storm hit, the President again
called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign
the papers requesting federal assistance, that they
declare the state an emergency area, and begin
mandatory evacuation.

After a personal plea from the President Nagin agreed
to order an evacuation, but it would not be a full
mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused
to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal
action.

In frustration the President declared the area
a national disaster area before the state of Louisiana
did so he could legally begin some advanced
preparations.

Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were
looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency
act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a
state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the constitutionality of it was called into question.

Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past
decade to NO for levee construction, maintenance, and
repair was diverted to fund a marina and support the
gambling ships. Toss in the investigation that will
look into why the emergency preparedness plan
submitted to the federal government for funding and
published on the city's website was never implemented
and, in fact, may have been bogus for the purpose of
gaining additional federal funding as we now learn
that the organizations identified in the plan were
never contacted or coordinating into any planning -
though the document implies that they were.

The suffering people of NO need to be asking some hard
questions as do we all, but they better start with why
Blanco refused to even sign the multi-state mutual aid
pack activation documents until Wednesday, which
further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard
from adjoining states. Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps
harping that the President should have commandeered
500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his
own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have
over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the
local school busses and the city transportation busses
- but he never raised a finger to prepare them or
activate them.

This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major
city has all but been destroyed and thousands of
people have died with hundreds of thousands more
suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to
be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to
blame for local corruption and incompetence.

Pray for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future."

Ron Gomez was a former Legislator in Louisiana, before he resigned during the Edwin Edwards tenure. He has written a book on the corruption in Louisiana, "My Name is Ron, and I'm a Recovering Legislator."

lsbets
09-07-2005, 10:59 PM
Hey doophus, to you have a link for that? I'd like to pass it along.

Secretariat
09-07-2005, 11:18 PM
Well, then why did Mayor Nagin and the City not do so???????

Your question on this is interesting. In no other hurricane I’ve known, including Andrew a Hurricane 5, were buses commandered by the mayors of those cities within 24 hours of the storm in an attempt to evacuate a city of a half million people. As it is general panic ensued in NO, and lanes going out of the city were bumper to bumper with traffic. Here’s an account.

“Traffic within the city is completely gridlocked. The governor has advised citizens heading west to take Highway 90 instead of I-10, which is gridlocked. If you cannot evacuate heading north, head eastward first, where traffic is lighter.’

Head EAST? That’s where the storm was the strongest. Who would want to evacuate that way? But that’s where the least traffic was! Big surprise!

Now all those people, without transportation, had to be identified within 24 hours and brought to shelters or a central location to evacuate. Nagin sent RTA buses out to to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points per his evacuation order.

His first primary was their safety, not taking his police force and attempting to enforce a mandatory evacuation. Even today with no hurricane bearing down people are refusing to co-operate with the NG. How in the world could a police force with less than 24 hours get a a guy out of his house who hadn't left it since 1955. How would they get hundreds of nursing home residents out? How would they get people with pets who refused to leave them out? The bottom line was their attempt was to deal with those who followed the evacuation order, not attempt to enforce those who did not.

I can imagine trying to get out of Miami within 24 hours of knowing Hurricane Andrew was coming ,except I don’t have any car, and have to rely on getting to a central bus spot which then takes me to a point that an evacuation could take place, This with Kendall Road packed to the T, the turnpike mobbed with traffic, AND Route 95 out of town bumper to bumper and it’s raining.

The fact is there wasn’t enough time to commandeer school buses, gather drivers, identify all who needed transportation and evacuate through the rain to safety. It's easy to armchair it, but getting a half a million people out of an old town isn't exactly easy my friend, knowing that if you are not successful, those buses are stuck out in the wind when the wall hits.

When Jeb starts commandering school buses for those Florida Hurricanes, then we'll talk, and I'm not talking about the football team.

lsbets
09-07-2005, 11:26 PM
Sec, you act as if the storm were only a threat once it elevated to a category 5. It was a 3 at least 72 hours out, and the NO plan called for evacuations in the case of a 3 starting 72 hours out. The simulation was run using a direct hit from a 3. There is no excuse for not acting sooner - none. I can't believe you're trying to spin like this storm wasn't a big deal until the day before. Well, actually I can believe it, par for the course.

Secretariat
09-07-2005, 11:44 PM
Sec, you act as if the storm were only a threat once it elevated to a category 5. It was a 3 at least 72 hours out, and the NO plan called for evacuations in the case of a 3 starting 72 hours out. The simulation was run using a direct hit from a 3. There is no excuse for not acting sooner - none. I can't believe you're trying to spin like this storm wasn't a big deal until the day before. Well, actually I can believe it, par for the course.

That wasn't the question you asked. Here's your post:

"Okay, so the mandatory evacuation order was issued about 24 hours prior to the storm hitting land, how was it enforced?"

I replied to that. Now, you're asking a new question I gather, which is why was the evacuation order given only 24 hours before the storm, rather than 72? A good question. I'm not trying to spin anything, I'm replying to what you asked.

btw...as posted earlier the hurricane went from a 4 to a 5 very quickly and the evacuation order came almost immediately upon it being a 4, not a 5. As to why they did not call for the order when it was a 3..I don't know. It's a good question for Nagin. A good question for Blanco and for Bush and FEMA. I don't know exactly when it was listed as a 3, and when the trajectory was set to NO. Could you post a link on that? The levees were set to withstand a 3 according to General Strock. Hurricanes of 3 have come close to NO before and there has not been a mandatory evacuation issued. Honestly, the timeline needs to be addressed, and that is why a Commission is definitely needed. But attacking Nagin over a 24 hour evacuation because he didn't commandeer the buses during that time is absurd especially when you see that he did use RTA buses to bring people to safety.

lsbets
09-07-2005, 11:50 PM
I suggest you read doophus' post, that account matches with others I have read about the timeline and evacuation orders. There was a lot more than 24 hours notice for officials to decide to follow the plan they drew up.

schweitz
09-08-2005, 12:44 AM
Just heard on the news---Gov. Blanco says that Mayor Nagin does not have authority to call for a mandatory evacuation---only she does---and she hasn't decided yet. :rolleyes:

boxcar
09-08-2005, 12:48 AM
Sec,
Boxcar suddenly went blank when I asked him how he liked having his insurance subsidized by you and me ?

I replied to that post and I think JR or LS did also, about the way insurance companies set up risk pools.

You're the one shooting blanks around here. I asked you to reconcile your two different Bush quotes about his refusing aid from overseas by providing a source for either one of those quotes. You still haven't done it.

Boxcar

schweitz
09-08-2005, 12:54 AM
Something else I just heard on the news:

The Red Cross was stopped from delivering water and food to the superdome by the Louisiana Dept. of HomeLand Security (not part of the Federal Homeland Security). Their reason? They didn't want the Superdome to be a magnet for all the other people left in New Orleans.

Also it was said that FEMA has no authority over State Govt.,National Guard, or Red Cross.

PaceAdvantage
09-08-2005, 01:25 AM
Is it any wonder things are so thoroughly screwed up down there?
I think it's time to take a break from the off-topic board. It's becoming more and more like Alice in Wonderland with each passing moment.

I have to assume that folks like Bobby and LJB are only half serious when they post some of their stuff...I just have to....

boxcar
09-08-2005, 01:55 AM
Something else I just heard on the news:

The Red Cross was stopped from delivering water and food to the superdome by the Louisiana Dept. of HomeLand Security (not part of the Federal Homeland Security). Their reason? They didn't want the Superdome to be a magnet for all the other people left in New Orleans.

Also it was said that FEMA has no authority over State Govt.,National Guard, or Red Cross.

Be careful, Schweitz, we both heard this on FNC -- certainly an unreliable,+
untrustworthy and biased source. :D


Boxcar

boxcar
09-08-2005, 10:44 AM
Here's an update of Gov BlancLook's cluelessness: She's been at odds now for the last couple of days with Nagin over enforcing the mandatory evacuation. Yesterday, with respect to the deplorable, disease-laden water, she's essentially said (to paraphrase her), "Well, we have to assess the situation. If we find this, if we find that....yada, yada, yada -- then, we'll have to take appropriate action."

This morning, she'll still not on the same page as Nagin. He still wants people forcibly removed, if they don't leave voluntarily. Whereas she said that people should strongly be urged to leave -- but not forced out until the situation is assessed.

People are already getting sick from the water, and the toxic soup is so bad that if it touches the skin, it will burn it! But this Clueless Wonder wants to wait and wait and wait.

This gal should really and truly should be impeached; for her legacy is going to be one of indecisiveness, uncertainity and procrastination.

Boxcar

boxcar
09-08-2005, 12:28 PM
Just Missed beat me posting the link, but here's another if you want. just Google it. There's pages of links on it. Here's two.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4836

So, let's get past posting this inaccuracy. It's been debunked.

Okay. Fair enough. I don't recall from where I read differently, but I think it was on NewsMax. Now when I go to check, the report is gone. Maybe it was revised, edited or whatever -- which is not an uncommon practice on the 'net when people want to correct inaccuracies, etc. Usually, Newsmax is a reliable news source -- compared, for example to the New York Times which seems to go out of its way these days to impliment a policy of disinformation to bolster its agenda.

But lets not belabor this point. Let's look at that proclomation for a moment, which I did find yesterday after I posted my request to you because my curiosity was piqued. Here is how the proclomation reads -- the part, that is, that you didn't bother to post:

**************

WHEREAS, when the governor finds a disaster or emergency has occurred, or the threat thereof is imminent, R.S. 29:724(B)(1) empowers her to declare the state of disaster or emergency by executive order or proclamation, or both; and

WHEREAS, On August 26, 2005, Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat to the state of Louisiana, carrying severe storms, high winds, and torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the citizens of Louisiana;

NOW THEREFORE I, KATHLEEN BABINEAUX BLANCO,
Governor of the state of Louisiana, by virtue of the authority vested by the Constitution and laws of the state of Louisiana, do hereby order and direct as follows:

SECTION 1: Pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., a state of emergency is declared to exist in the state of Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat, carrying severe storms, high winds, and torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the citizens of the state of Louisiana;

SECTION 2: The state of Louisiana's emergency response and recovery program is activated under the command of the director of the state office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to prepare for and provide emergency support services and/or to minimize the effects of the storm's damage. (emphases mine)

****************

Note carefully, please, that LA has its own version of Homeland Security created by statute. If the State of LA doesn't have any responsibility toward its citizens, then what is the purpose for this agency? Why does it exist?

Also, take due note, please, that the State of LA has an "emergency response and recovery program" -- that, according to law, must be enactd by the "director of the state office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness". It doesn't say that the LA has an emergency response and recovery program under FEMA, does it!?

The citizens' first "line of defense" against any emergency are their local and state governents. Even NO had an a whole plan drawn up which the mayor failed miserably at implementing. Let's continue...

Now...I can't be 100% certain, but I also seem to recall reading that this proclomation took place on Friday evening of 8/26 -- quite possibly even late that night. So...for all practical intent and purposes, no one could really do much of anything on Friday. For the most part, people could only react to the Gov's message on Saturday morning. So, for those people who took her procomation to heart, they had only a 48-hour window of opportunity to leave town. But keep in mind, how many people woudl that have been, especially since the Gov did not issue an Evacuation Order!? She stopped short of that.

Why did the Governor wait so long before issuing her delcaration of ermergency? Did she not know that the best minimum evacuation window was one that would be 72 hours long? Or did the threat to her mind only become "imminent" when the storm strenghtened to a Cat 4 or 5 level?

And if she thought the storm was an "imminent threat", why didn't she issue a Mandatory Evacuation order? She has the power to do that! She's the "CEO" of the entire state!

And what part of "imminent threat" (this phrase used three times in her delcaration!) didn't Nagin understand? Why did this dimwit waste more valuable time by not ordering a mandatory evacutation immediately upon learning of the Gov's proclomation -- at the very least? Why did he wait until Sunday to order the evacuation? Did he think the storm wasn't an imminent enough threat to the population of his below-sea-level city? Or was he out partying down with all the folks in the French Quarter?
Bottom line: By the time he ordered a mandatory evacuation, that 2-hour window was then reduced to 1/3 of the length of the time minimum recommended window.

Tell me, Sec, honestly what you would have done if you were a resident of NO and you were listening to the weather reports, and the gov's delcaration, etc.? Would you have evacuated ASAP? I'm asking this seriously -- all political BS aside. How would you personally reacted to this situtation? Would you have stayed in NO? Would you have joined the party animals on Bourbon St.? Would you have stayed and weathered the storm? Or would your survival instincts have kicked in -- would you have entertained a single thought about self-preservation?

And while pondering these "tough" questions, I find it telling that no lib has responded to all my questions on post #56 over on the "Another Perspective..." thread? The questions too tough? Or do the answers involve too much common sense, which is an uncommon commodity in a lib's arsenal of Life Choices?

Boxcar

lsbets
09-08-2005, 12:58 PM
In the interest of fairness, I will say this about Mayor Nagin - since about two days after the storm he has shown an admirable level of intensity even if he hasn't always made the right decision. The one who continues to confound me is the governor who seems to not want to help the Mayor out at all.

Do those two have any kind of history between them? Because it sure seems like they can't stand each other.

boxcar
09-08-2005, 01:59 PM
As it has been pointed our earlier, immediately after Katrina passed by the NO area, various private relief agencies, e.g. Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc. were prohibited from going into the city to deliver badly needed aid.

As the link to the interview with the news-breaking reporter (Major Garrett of FNC) reveals, tht the inept, bungling Governor of LA refused to allow the agencies in -- even at the time when Mayor Nagin was begging for it!

Here are some excerpts from the interview:

MG: Well, the Red Cross, Hugh, had pre-positioned a literal vanguard of trucks with water, food, blankets and hygiene items. They're not really big into medical response items, but those are the three biggies that we saw people at the New Orleans Superdome, and the convention center, needing most accutely. And all of us in America, I think, reasonably asked ourselves, geez. You know, I watch hurricanes all the time. And I see correspondents standing among rubble and refugees and evacuaees. But I always either see that Red Cross or Salvation Army truck nearby. Why don't I see that?

HH: And the answer is?

MG: The answer is the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security, that is the state agency responsible for that state's homeland security, told the Red Cross explicitly, you cannot come.

HH: Now Major Garrett, on what day did they block the delivery? Do you know specifically?

MG: I am told by the Red Cross, immediately after the storm passed.

When Garrett was asked on how did the Gov's office respond to this charge, here is what he said:

MG: I have not been able to reach them yet. But, what they have said consistently is, and what they told the Red Cross, we don't want you to come in there, because we have evacuees that we want to get out. And if you come in, they're more likely to stay. So I want your listeners to follow me here. At the very moment that Ray Nagin, the Mayor of New Orleans was screaming where's the food, where's the water, it was over the overpass, and state officials were saying you can't come in.

Oops...mums the word -- out of this airhead's office.

But it gets worse. Read this exchange that deals for one of the reasons why the Gov wouldn't let these agencies get through to the victims:

HH: Because you know, they do work with FEMA. But is it your understanding that FEMA and the Red Cross and the other relief agencies must get tht state's okay to act?

MG: As the Red Cross told me, they said look. We are not state actors. We are not the Army. We are a private organziation. We work in cooperation with both FEMA and the state officials. But the state told us A) it's not safe, because the water is dangerous. And we're now learning how toxic the water is. B) there's a security situation, because they didn't have a handle on the violence on the ground. And C) and I think this is most importantly, they wanted to evacuate out. They didn't want people to stay.

At that time the state told the RC that the water wasn't safe -- that the water was "dangerous" -- but this was at the time before the "dam burst"!

But now that the water is really dangerous -- with NO now a toxic wasteland -- the Gov still won't allow law enformcement officials to force the stubborn holdouts out.

My God...this woman has redefined the Peter Principle!

http://www.radioblogger.com/#000967

Boxcar

Bobby
09-08-2005, 02:17 PM
Parish official blasts FEMA

NEW ORLEANS (CNN) -- The director of homeland security and emergency preparedness for Jefferson Parish said Thursday the federal response to the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina was not at all timely and didn't go according to plan.

"What federal response?" asked Walter Maestri.

"In the plan, the master plan for disaster recovery ... we were told that we could expect a full federal response within 48 to 60 hours," he told CNN in a phone interview from his office in Jefferson Parish, which includes the western suburbs of New Orleans. "We did not receive that." (Posted: 12:16 p.m.)

Secretariat
09-08-2005, 03:14 PM
I suggest you read doophus' post, that account matches with others I have read about the timeline and evacuation orders. There was a lot more than 24 hours notice for officials to decide to follow the plan they drew up.

This link is an excellent timeframe of events from Katrina's formation to the first week after hitting.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Katrina%20Timeline

This is the part you were interested in.

Friday, Aug. 26:

- Katrina weakens over land to a tropical storm before moving out over the Gulf of Mexico. It grows to a Category 2 hurricane with 100 mph winds, veering north and west toward Mississippi and Louisiana.

- 10,000 National Guard troops are dispatched across the Gulf Coast.

Saturday, Aug. 27:

- Eleven people dead in Florida from hurricane-related causes.

- Katrina becomes a Category 3 storm, with 115 mph winds; a hurricane warning is issued for Louisiana's southeastern coast, including New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain, and for the northern Gulf coast.

- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declares a state of emergency and urges residents in low-lying areas to evacuate.

- Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour declares a state of emergency. A mandatory evacuation is ordered for Hancock County.

- Coastal Gulf residents jam freeways and gas stations as they rush to evacuate.

Sunday, Aug. 28:

- Katrina grows into a Category 5 storm with 160 mph winds and heads for the northern Gulf coast.

- Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation for New Orleans. But 10 shelters are also set up, including the Superdome, for those unable to leave.

- Evacuation orders are posted all along the Mississippi coast.

- Alabama Gov. Bob Riley declares a state of emergency.

So I wouldn't say there was 72 hours from a hurricane 3 to impact. In fact Nagin declared a state of emergency prior to Barbor or Riley. About 12 hours slower on mandatory evac, but still not a 72 hour timeline.


Additionally, here's some more info :

"On Saturday 8/27, the National Hurricane Center in Miami extended a Hurricane Watch for Louisiana. Mandatory evacuation orders were issued for some of Louisiana's low-lying areas and Katrina was expected to increase to become a Category 4 hurricane; "This is a very, very dangerous hurricane," said NHC Director Max Mayfield on CNN Saturday. At 5pm, Mayor Ray Nagin called for a voluntary evacuation of the city but Greyhound & Amtrak stopped service in New Orleans late Saturday Night.

By Sunday 8/28, news reports called Katrina the most powerful hurricane ever to menace the United States and said it was expected to slam into the nation's most storm-vulnerable city, New Orleans. "Some 25 feet of standing water is expected in many parts of the city -- almost twice the height of the average home -- and computer models suggest that more than 80 percent of buildings would be badly damaged or destroyed" On Sunday, Mayor Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order and the City of Chicago offered the federal government help but was refused."

Secretariat
09-08-2005, 03:30 PM
I think this is the part of the above that bothers me the most:

Saturday. At 5pm, Mayor Ray Nagin called for a voluntary evacuation of the city but Greyhound & Amtrak stopped service in New Orleans late Saturday Night.

Sunday, Mayor Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order and the City of Chicago offered the federal government help but was refused.

Secretariat
09-08-2005, 03:54 PM
Tell me, Sec, honestly what you would have done if you were a resident of NO and you were listening to the weather reports, and the gov's delcaration, etc.? Would you have evacuated ASAP? I'm asking this seriously -- all political BS aside. How would you personally reacted to this situtation? Would you have stayed in NO? Would you have joined the party animals on Bourbon St.? Would you have stayed and weathered the storm? Or would your survival instincts have kicked in -- would you have entertained a single thought about self-preservation?

And while pondering these "tough" questions, I find it telling that no lib has responded to all my questions on post #56 over on the "Another Perspective..." thread? The questions too tough? Or do the answers involve too much common sense, which is an uncommon commodity in a lib's arsenal of Life Choices?

Boxcar

Jesus Box, my fingers are tired.

Yes, I would have evacuted when the storm turned to a 3 which occured Sat.. One of the problems would have been how to get Amtrak and Greyhound to assist rather than closing shop Saturday night. I would have stayed in NO. I may very well have joined the party animals in the French Quarter, been there and had a good time there, besides that's higher ground. Truth is we often don't know exactly how we're going to respond to emergencies no how much we think we might know. Did Nagin make mistakes? Sure. Did Bush? big ones..problem with his is they set the stage for FEMA's response when Allbaugh was FEMA's head in 2001.

As to the other thread, give me a break. I gotta head out tonight for a fund raiser. Will take a look later tonight.

Secretariat
09-08-2005, 04:06 PM
Box,

I do have to go, but hopefully this responds to the questions I think you're referring to.

But let's look at some facts:

1.) The storm had strengtened considerably once it crossed the SW part of Florida and entered into the Gulf. INACCURATE, IT ACTUALLY WEAKENED TO A TROPICAL STORM FIRST.

2) It didn't take long for the predictions to come true. What was a weak Cat 1 storm on the East Coast of Florida quickly developed into a very large storm mass and a well-defined, tight eye in the Gulf of Mexico. YES, VERY QUICKLY FROM SATRDAY TO EARLY SUNDAY

3) It was a CAT 3 storm well before the 72-hour window. INACCURATE.

4) Much of NO is below sea level. No secret. Everyone knew this. YES INCLUDING GW BUSH

5) Everyone knew that the levee system would only be able to withstand a CAT 3 storm -- at best. This, too, was no secret. CORRECT

6) The storm had been on a "definite track" for quite some time. What made people think that Katrina was going to cut a detour somewhere out in the Gulf? What evidence was there for this? BECAUSE HURRICANES OFTEN DO THAT. BESIDES I DON'T THINK PEOPLE THOUGH IT WS NECESSARILY GOING TO DETOUR BY THE EVACUATIONS THEY CALLED FOR.

7) Since there are only a limited number of roads leading out of Dodge, wouldn't this equate with huge traffic jams? Why wait, then, at the last minute for the "rush hour"? YES, IN FACT THERE WERE NUMEROUS ONES IF YOU READ MY OTHER POSTS

As to your DEMRAT nonsence dribble you’ve posted. The truth is Barbor declared a state of emergency the same day Nagin did, and only had one county HANCOCK do mandatory evacs. The Gov. of Alabama didn’t even declare a state of emergency until Sunday.

Talk about partisan.

Tom
09-08-2005, 05:58 PM
Something else I just heard on the news:

The Red Cross was stopped from delivering water and food to the superdome by the Louisiana Dept. of HomeLand Security (not part of the Federal Homeland Security). Their reason? They didn't want the Superdome to be a magnet for all the other people left in New Orleans.

Also it was said that FEMA has no authority over State Govt.,National Guard, or Red Cross.

Go to RedCross.org - they talk about it there.
Watch Hannity and Combs tonight- Shawn has the story today.

DJofSD
09-08-2005, 06:13 PM
Tom, a little help -- where on redcross.org - what am I looking for?

DJofSD

DJofSD
09-08-2005, 06:30 PM
From Simon Winchester (a noted author) in the N. Y. Times. (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/opinion/08winchester.html)

DJofSD

ljb
09-08-2005, 07:56 PM
Got any links for how a real president should act ?

DJofSD
09-08-2005, 08:29 PM
Sure do. Matter a fact, I'll do you one better.

Link for who should be the next President of the United States (http://www.schwarzenegger.com/)

DJofSD

NoDayJob
09-08-2005, 08:38 PM
Sure do. Matter a fact, I'll do you one better.

Link for who should be the next President of the United States (http://www.schwarzenegger.com/)

DJofSD

:lol: A'll be bock! :lol:

NDJ [AKA Troll #1]

Lefty
09-08-2005, 08:39 PM
Got any links for how a real president should act ? says lbj.

Son, your'e seeing it in every situation. You just too fogged up with liberal misinformation and hate to realize it.

lsbets
09-08-2005, 10:59 PM
The Mexican Army convoy with 200 soldiers coming to help victims of the hurricane is headed to San Antonio, home of the Alamo.

Tom
09-08-2005, 11:35 PM
Tom, a little help -- where on redcross.org - what am I looking for?

DJofSD

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

Tom
09-08-2005, 11:36 PM
The Mexican Army convoy with 200 soldiers coming to help victims of the hurricane is headed to San Antonio, home of the Alamo.

What are they going to do....join up with the Mexican Army of 3 millioin ALREADY here? :faint:

Steve 'StatMan'
09-09-2005, 12:00 AM
The Mexican Army convoy with 200 soldiers coming to help victims of the hurricane is headed to San Antonio, home of the Alamo.

I'm glad to see all help, of course. But its strange. Appearently we've got all sorts of laws and rules regulating when the government can and cannnot send our own troops and forces into a state (need specific permission just to legally help out I guess) but there aren't any such hurdles when foriegn troops come in to help? (Glad to have foreign helpers instead of foreign invaders!)

Appearently the laws and rules specify when government bodies are allowed to act and send help, and move in to various states, etc. Perhaps even inhibiting early moving of supplies, etc. Those in charge of the area can even control what help comes in and what doesn't (as in the Red Cross being ordered not to enter certain area by state authorities, from what I've read here. Yet before the storm hit, there was nothing stopping (thankfully) the private sector, such as WalMart from sending supplies (did they get distributed, and when?)

The more I read of this, there is a great legal, bureaucratic mess that regulates (which can delay and prevent) the federal authorites (agencies and military) from intervening in a state. The law might guarantee autonomy for the states and serve as a legal means to protect a soverign states rights from forceful government intervention. But these legal handcuffs sure seem to be making it very complicated and clumsy for the different organizations when they need to work together in times of disaster and needing to bring in helpful forces.

I'm in agreement with some of the folks out here that there needs to be a though investigation into all the events, as well as the laws and procedures in this whole process, and to me that includes federal, state and county/parish and city levels, as well as assiting organizations.

My big concern is that because so many politicians involved, their careers on the line, and political parties that will likely fight it out like a Face-Off in an Ugly Hockey Game, I don't know if we'll get all the answers to what went wrong, so that corrections can be made. I don't know that the Fed's have any control over that the other bodies are equally examined as thoroughly as I expect the federal level will be examined. Too much of the blame/avoidance game will just keep problems from being solved, and the system and any critical people/parts being changed.

boxcar
09-09-2005, 12:01 AM
Jesus Box, my fingers are tired.

Yes, I would have evacuted when the storm turned to a 3 which occured Sat.. One of the problems would have been how to get Amtrak and Greyhound to assist rather than closing shop Saturday night. I would have stayed in NO. I may very well have joined the party animals in the French Quarter, been there and had a good time there, besides that's higher ground. Truth is we often don't know exactly how we're going to respond to emergencies no how much we think we might know. Did Nagin make mistakes? Sure. Did Bush? big ones..problem with his is they set the stage for FEMA's response when Allbaugh was FEMA's head in 2001.

As to the other thread, give me a break. I gotta head out tonight for a fund raiser. Will take a look later tonight.

So...you might have stayed, eh? And you would have stayed in the city when it was "only" a CAT 2 on Friday. This says it all!

Not surprising that you'd roll the dice and bet your life that a) the hurricane would weaken or get no stronger than a Cat 2; or b) that it would alter its course; or c) that the levees would definitely perform to their design limitations; or d) that if the levess did fail for some unfathomable reason, and the water came rushing in to the city that's below sea level, you'd manage to find the highest rooftop on which to perch to safety because rumor has it that God protects drunks and fools. You're quite the gambler -- no doubt greatly influenced by the main character in the Maverick TV series :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

Lefty
09-09-2005, 03:07 AM
Aw c'mom, Box; Maverick was smarter than that. He only gambled when the pcgs were in his favor and he always carried a 1,000 pinned inside his coat as a backup contingency.

Secretariat
09-09-2005, 04:23 AM
Hey Box,

You say God protects drunks and fools. You may be onto something. Here's one of them ole' GW having a ball while people were starving at the Superdome. This photo is from the Tuesday after the storm hit. I've included a good timeline beyond the one from the Seattle paper I posted earlier. Nothing like priorities.

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

JustRalph
09-09-2005, 06:35 AM
Hey Box,

You say God protects drunks and fools. You may be onto something. Here's one of them ole' GW having a ball while people were starving at the Superdome.

you are a terribly arrogant pain in the ass sometimes. You cackle like a pissed off hen at everything GW does. It is unbecoming. you and your ilk do nothing for your side. You only embolden those who promise to work against you in the future. Remember that..........

lsbets
09-09-2005, 07:21 AM
Hey Sec, your timeline left out the part about the Red Corss being prepared to move food and water to the Superdome and Convention Center immediatly after the hurricane, but not being allowed to do so by the LA State Dept of Homeland Security.

There's lots of other holes in that "timeline" too, but its not worth getting into. The depths that you and your ilk will sink to for political gain is sickening.

Kreed
09-09-2005, 07:34 AM
FACE IT: The NO debacle is partly political and it will stay political until this
guy vacates the White House. I think 43's future looks bleak.

wes
09-09-2005, 08:58 AM
The two party system in the USA have become like to different countrys. One party is not willing to work with the other. It has over flowed into the local government as well. Those who sit on their asses and complain the most have no idea what is taking place. They have no solution but have plenty of lip service to cut down someone. They want to see thing as they would have liked them to be. Not as the real thing and cope with the problem.


wes

ljb
09-09-2005, 09:26 AM
you are a terribly arrogant pain in the ass sometimes. You cackle like a pissed off hen at everything GW does. It is unbecoming. you and your ilk do nothing for your side. You only embolden those who promise to work against you in the future. Remember that..........
Damn, looks like the truth bit one of them rightys in the arse again. :lol: :lol: :lol:

JustRalph
09-09-2005, 10:10 AM
Damn, looks like the truth bit one of them rightys in the arse again. :lol: :lol: :lol:

LJB, you think way too much. Sec just called the President of the United States a Drunk and a fool. No matter who the President is, it is a little out of bounds to make these statements. Especially during times of war and national crisis. That is the difference between your Howard Dean led armies of insolent degenerate left wingers and those who actually think about what they might say in a public forum.

DJofSD
09-09-2005, 12:04 PM
Well, well, well. It seems like the chickens have finally come home to roost. And it doesn't look to good for the 'anything goes as long as I feel good' crowd.

Reading in today's newspaper, it seems that after Hurricane Betsy (a catagory 2) in 1965, Congress approved a massive hurricane barrier designed to protect NO.

But it never got built.

Why? Because there was a lawsuit from the environmentalists that stopped the project then ulitimately prevailed. It seems the marine life in Lake Pontchatrain was more important.

I'm sure all those fish, crabs, shrimp, birds and the like really appreciate the sacrifice made on their behalf.

DJofSD

tonto1944
09-09-2005, 12:31 PM
This is a post from Bill Weiler, freelance journalist, over in Merritt Is,
FL, who has been researching what went on before the storm hit. These are
the authors comment - I find them very interesting.

--
Politics over Duty

I think all of Mayor Nagin's pomp and posturing is going to bite him hard in the near future as the lies and distortions of his interviews are coming to light.

On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.

President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his
advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a
state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse
Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act). Just before midnight
Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could
legally begin mobilization and call up. He was told that they didn't think
it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the
President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to
discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was
decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited in.

Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Gov. Blanco and
Mayor Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal
assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin
mandatory evacuation. After a personal plea from the President, Nagin agreed to order an evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action. In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question to use before the disaster.

Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to NO for levee
construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and
support the gambling ships. Toss in the investigation that will look into
why the emergency preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in
fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal
funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were
never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document
implies that they were.

The suffering people of NO need to be asking some hard questions as do we
all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the
multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which
further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining
states. Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.

This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been
destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and
incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future.

DJofSD
09-09-2005, 12:37 PM
tonto - excellent post. Thanks for the info.

But just remember it's all Bush's fault.

DJofSD

schweitz
09-09-2005, 12:37 PM
Well, well, well. It seems like the chickens have finally come home to roost. And it doesn't look to good for the 'anything goes as long as I feel good' crowd.

Reading in today's newspaper, it seems that after Hurricane Betsy (a catagory 2) in 1965, Congress approved a massive hurricane barrier designed to protect NO.

But it never got built.

Why? Because there was a lawsuit from the environmentalists that stopped the project then ulitimately prevailed. It seems the marine life in Lake Pontchatrain was more important.

I'm sure all those fish, crabs, shrimp, birds and the like really appreciate the sacrifice made on their behalf.

DJofSD


Sierra Club vrs Levees:

www.nationalreview.com/comment/berlau200509080824.asp

schweitz
09-09-2005, 12:43 PM
tonto - excellent post. Thanks for the info.

But just remember it's all Bush's fault.

DJofSD

Ben Stein's take:

www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8693

JustMissed
09-09-2005, 01:27 PM
Looks like it is just a matter of time before SE Louisiana sinks to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.

Looks like the Greens are correct in this situation. The levies never should have been built to begin with.

This article is from the LSU Science & Tech website:

"Washing Away — The Sinking of Louisiana


Louisiana's coastline is suffering the highest rate of coastal erosion and wetland loss in the nation, and nearly 70 percent of Louisiana's population lives in coastal zones and are at risk. The Louisiana Spatial Reference Center at LSU and the LSU Hurricane Center are among the units on campus that are studying ways to save the coastline.

Louisiana, as well as the entire South Central United States, is sinking under the weight of the Mississippi River mud that makes up the geography of the region. The situation is spawning what LSU professor Roy Dokka calls a “slow disaster.”

Already portions of Louisiana Highway 1 are significantly lower than they were 20 years ago. Some areas of the state are sinking as much as one inch a year, which increases the risk of flooding and throws off the timing of evacuation plans in case of a major storm.


A recent survey of Louisiana Highway 1 between Raceland and Grand Isle prompted National Geodetic Survey Director Charles Challstrom to state in a letter to Colonel Mike Brown of the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness that “vertical control” — the elevation of surveyors’ markers in the state — was “inaccurate and inadequate.”

“We can’t run from the fact that the coast is sinking, so we have to figure out how to deal with its effects,” said Dokka, who heads the Louisiana Spatial Reference Center (LSRC) at LSU and is a faculty member in the University’s Department of Civil & Environmental Engineering.

“Louisiana will have to develop plans to mitigate this subsidence and technologies to handle what’s happening here long before it has to be done anywhere else. Then we can export those technologies and their spinoffs to other states and other places around the world."

Some of the technology for monitoring statewide elevation change is already in place. Using computers, global positioning system satellites, and fixed monitoring stations throughout the state, the LSRC is capable of measuring land movement as small as a few millimeters a year. It’s on the cutting edge of geoinformatics technology, Dokka said.


Roy Dokka examines "1LSU," a GPS reference station on LSU's campus that is used to determine elevations around the state. Using satellite technology, "1LSU" determines its own position and elevation once every second, and can be used as a reference point for everything else in Louisiana. Dokka calls it the "benchmark of the 21st century.

Besides monitoring land subsidence, the LSRC is working under the auspices of the national Geodetic Survey to reestablish the accuracy of surveyors’ benchmarks in the state. Both of these undertakings go hand-in-hand with the major effort facing Louisiana right now — curbing the loss of the state’s wetland.

The marshes of coastal Louisiana, which comprise the seventh largest delta in the world, are disappearing every year at a rate equivalent to a half-mile-wide corridor stretching the approximately 60 miles from Baton Rouge to Lafayette. With the loss of these buffer zones, flooding and storm surges from hurricanes and other large storms will increasingly put life and property at risk.


On top of that, the economic and environmental importance of these wetlands extends beyond Louisiana to the country as a whole, which is why the Governor’s Office has initiated the “America’s Wetlands” campaign to raise awareness of the problem throughout the United States.

“Knowing where and how fast the land is sinking is key to doing anything about it,” Dokka said. “Using the tools available with LSRC, we’ll know where to focus our efforts. You can’t do anything without a place to start. Remember that it’s not just the marshes that are sinking, it’s also the surrounding land where people live.”

JM

ljb
09-09-2005, 03:38 PM
LJB, you think way too much. Sec just called the President of the United States a Drunk and a fool. No matter who the President is, it is a little out of bounds to make these statements. Especially during times of war and national crisis. That is the difference between your Howard Dean led armies of insolent degenerate left wingers and those who actually think about what they might say in a public forum.
Just,
You are right. The President of the United States is no longer a drunk.
And yes we are in a national crisis. (Bush's war being part of it)

Secretariat
09-09-2005, 06:52 PM
Just,
You are right. The President of the United States is no longer a drunk.
And yes we are in a national crisis. (Bush's war being part of it)

I stand corrected LJB, but he did play a mean guitar the Tuesday Katrina hit.

"While the poor residents of New Orleans died, he [Bush] made jokes. Jokes about Trent Lott. Jokes about his alcoholic days in the French Quarter."

JustRalph
09-09-2005, 07:45 PM
President Bush and his Dad finally made to the Hurricane zone........

http://www.azbest.com/goldwing/bushvacation.jpg

Tom
09-09-2005, 09:01 PM
It's GOOD to be King! :kiss:

PaceAdvantage
09-09-2005, 11:00 PM
Do you realize there is a woman where I work that today declared that Bush will be impeached over Katrina....that this is "his Waterloo"

ROTFLMAO :lol: :lol:


I predict all this stuff is going to backfire on the main players involved....in a big way....

lsbets
09-09-2005, 11:02 PM
It already is PA. When Chuck Shumer decided to use a petition to fire Brown as a fundraising tool while they are still trying to rescue people, there was an immediate backlash, and tasteless politics like that will only make it worse.

boxcar
09-10-2005, 12:30 AM
I think this is the part of the above that bothers me the most:

Saturday. At 5pm, Mayor Ray Nagin called for a voluntary evacuation of the city but Greyhound & Amtrak stopped service in New Orleans late Saturday Night.

Sunday, Mayor Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation order and the City of Chicago offered the federal government help but was refused.

Let me tell you, sir, what "bothers me the most":

1) The city's evactuation plan called for using the buses at their disposal, i.e. school buses.

2) You can take this to the bank: Those buses would have been on the road in very short order if it was a DemRat wanting to get out the vote!

Boxcar

Tom
09-10-2005, 12:37 AM
I heard a caller on the Ed Schultz shjow today - just after 5pm if anyone wants to check - and I quote: "We need to get back at the government, we need to put peopl in there that will take care of us!" That pretty much sums up the democratic party - Scarlette O'hara all over again.....counting on the generosity of strangers. This caller was up i arms that this evacuation was a ploy to strip the poor people of LA of thier right to vote. Even Ed, a not-to-bright sort in his own right, pointed out that they still had the right to vote even if they moved. She replied that most of them would hav eto actually go and register, and most would have to be told.......get this!.....on thier own level that they had to go and vote, that they could make a difference.

I watched two hours of Dateline tonight, then the 9-11 Memorial on HBO.
What a difference in reactions - NY rose to the occasion while NO sunk to it.
I watched the crowd of NY'rs marching behind a pic'em group of firemen and cops heading BACK to Ground Zero after the debris settle from the collapses, like an army going to war. One guy asked-what is the job here? Another replied - to find people-one life saved is one life saved. And the crowds walking over the bridge evacuating on foot when mass transit stopped. Rudy G walking the streets, running the show, talking to HIS city, trying to calm people down and offer both hope and strength. Compared to the NO clown telling other people to get their asses in gear. The crowd of people sitting on that overpass, sitting in the streets, while news cars and truck drove in. If they could drive in. Why couldn't some of them walk out and GET help, GET supplies? Many people were trapped and helpless. Many others were just helpless but by no means trapped. FEMA wasn't in NYC that day. The national guard wasn't there that day. Just NY'rs taking care of their city and their own. NO'rs went out to get TVs and VCRs. Boy, years of lib rule sure show.

Lefty
09-10-2005, 12:42 AM
Tom, but N.Y. had a REAL Gov and Mayor!

boxcar
09-10-2005, 12:44 AM
Aw c'mom, Box; Maverick was smarter than that. He only gambled when the pcgs were in his favor and he always carried a 1,000 pinned inside his coat as a backup contingency.

Even delusional people have their heroes.

Boxcar

boxcar
09-10-2005, 01:26 AM
I heard a caller on the Ed Schultz shjow today - just after 5pm if anyone wants to check - and I quote: "We need to get back at the government, we need to put peopl in there that will take care of us!" That pretty much sums up the democratic party - Scarlette O'hara all over again.....counting on the generosity of strangers. This caller was up i arms that this evacuation was a ploy to strip the poor people of LA of thier right to vote. Even Ed, a not-to-bright sort in his own right, pointed out that they still had the right to vote even if they moved. She replied that most of them would hav eto actually go and register, and most would have to be told.......get this!.....on thier own level that they had to go and vote, that they could make a difference.

I watched two hours of Dateline tonight, then the 9-11 Memorial on HBO.
What a difference in reactions - NY rose to the occasion while NO sunk to it.
I watched the crowd of NY'rs marching behind a pic'em group of firemen and cops heading BACK to Ground Zero after the debris settle from the collapses, like an army going to war. One guy asked-what is the job here? Another replied - to find people-one life saved is one life saved. And the crowds walking over the bridge evacuating on foot when mass transit stopped. Rudy G walking the streets, running the show, talking to HIS city, trying to calm people down and offer both hope and strength. Compared to the NO clown telling other people to get their asses in gear. The crowd of people sitting on that overpass, sitting in the streets, while news cars and truck drove in. If they could drive in. Why couldn't some of them walk out and GET help, GET supplies? Many people were trapped and helpless. Many others were just helpless but by no means trapped. FEMA wasn't in NYC that day. The national guard wasn't there that day. Just NY'rs taking care of their city and their own. NO'rs went out to get TVs and VCRs. Boy, years of lib rule sure show.

Good post, Tom! And talking about "years of lib rule", ponder these facts for moment with respect to government in the Great State of Louisana:

Democrats have essentially ruled the roost in LA for at least 60 years or so, and what do the citizens have to show for it?

NO, specifically, is about 75% black. And about half of these blacks are wards of the state. (For those of you who live on URANUS, this means they're welfare recipients.) Blacks opted to stay behind in many case, not because they didn't have a way out in many cases, but because they didn't want to miss getting their welfare checks on the 1st of the month! So, Liberals have had all these many decades to bring Utopia to NO -- to bring a little bit of Heaven to that part of the planet -- but where is it? Why have they failed so dismally -- being in the driver's seat all these many years?

Blowhard Mary Landreaux (US Senator of LA and the one who recently threatenend to punch Bush) and many in her family are career politicians and have wielded much power and influence in the state over the last four decades or so. She knew about the design limations of the levees. Yet, this loudmouthed dingbat never once sponsored any legislation to correct the situation. Where was her deep concern and liberal compassion for the constitutents in her state all these years?

Even the liberal ragss like the Washington Post recently had to admit that all the corruption in the state really precluded any ideas that LA deserrved more money than what it had been getting -- simply because most of that money never was used for its intended purposes, but was diverted, instead, to build hotels, casinos, etc. The crooked politicians sure had their priorities straight, didn't they?

Even the NYT a few years ago described the Corps of Engineer Funding to this state as a "boondoggle". (Of course predictably, the NYT now has a selectively bad memory because recently they have jumped on the "Bush Slashed Funding for Corps of Engineers" band wagon.)

Liberalsim has been very bad news for LA, generally, but for NO even more specifically. It has accomplished diddly squat for the state, so it certainly isn't going to peform on a national level.

Boxcar

ljb
09-10-2005, 07:56 AM
I watched two hours of Dateline tonight, then the 9-11 Memorial on HBO.
What a difference in reactions - NY rose to the occasion while NO sunk to it.
I watched the crowd of NY'rs marching behind a pic'em group of firemen and cops heading BACK to Ground Zero after the debris settle from the collapses, like an army going to war. One guy asked-what is the job here? Another replied - to find people-one life saved is one life saved. And the crowds walking over the bridge evacuating on foot when mass transit stopped. Rudy G walking the streets, running the show, talking to HIS city, trying to calm people down and offer both hope and strength. Compared to the NO clown telling other people to get their asses in gear. The crowd of people sitting on that overpass, sitting in the streets, while news cars and truck drove in. If they could drive in. Why couldn't some of them walk out and GET help, GET supplies? Many people were trapped and helpless. Many others were just helpless but by no means trapped. FEMA wasn't in NYC that day. The national guard wasn't there that day. Just NY'rs taking care of their city and their own. NO'rs went out to get TVs and VCRs. Boy, years of lib rule sure show.
Tom,
A couple of points. First NY is a Democrat state full of cowards per your "Babe". Second LA has been led by Republicans for about 18 of the last 25 years and the mayor was a Republican until just before the election. Other then that your note shows some interesting contrasts.

Secretariat
09-10-2005, 09:37 AM
Let me tell you, sir, what "bothers me the most":

1) The city's evactuation plan called for using the buses at their disposal, i.e. school buses.

2) You can take this to the bank: Those buses would have been on the road in very short order if it was a DemRat wanting to get out the vote!

Boxcar

No Mayor or Governor in any hurricane has ever commandeered school buses to evacuate people - that includes Hurricane Floyd under Jeb Bush. Your namecalling DEMRAT, a typical tactic by you gets tiresome.

My point, if you'd read it, is that it was a shame that Amtrak and Greyhound had shutdown completely on Saturday night. The RTA transit buses were picking people up at the designated spots Nagin had announced. At the 24 hour mark there was no time for a mass transit evacuation without Amtrak and Greyhound running. The roads were jammed and some suburbs had arbitrarily at the last moment decided to shut off evacaution roads so that their communties would not be victims of looters fleeing NO.

Did Nagin do everything right? He admits he made mistakes. But nothing compared to those made by your guitar playing hero in office.

Tom
09-10-2005, 10:25 AM
There he goes again!

Lefty
09-10-2005, 11:48 AM
sec says:No Mayor or Governor in any hurricane has ever commandeered school buses to evacuate people - that includes Hurricane Floyd under Jeb Bush. Your namecalling DEMRAT, a typical tactic by you gets tiresome

Sec, NO was a completely unique situation. No other town had people trapped below sea level while over a 1,000 buses sat empty. The mayor and the Gov did not implement their OWN evac plan, simple as that. Because it hasn't been done before is a completely invalid excuse. It didn't need to be done before as badsly as it needed to be done in NO.

lbj, if you'll reread your post you'll find you make Tom's point. NY had a Repub Mayor and Gov who acted in a timely fashion.
LA had DEms who dragged their feet. The fact that the mayor was a Repub up until a week before the election shows he was lying to the people in typical Dem fashion.

Tom
09-10-2005, 12:35 PM
There he goes again! :rolleyes:


Sec, the Super Dome was a Refuge of Last Resort.
No food, no water, no sleeping supplies.
Just a muster point for final evacuation, by BUS, according to the disastor plan on file.
Where did this turkey think the buses were going to come from?

NO shcoool buses ever used before, eh?
Whatever happened to rising to the occasion and being a leader?
Whatever happened to improvising?
And when it was blatantly obvious that CNN and every other news agency was FREELY going to the "trapped" crowds, why didn't the MAYOR take some action - mobilize people in SUVs, trucks, etc, and take food and water in and bring babies and the elderly out?

I'll tell you why, you myoptic little parrot, you....because HE IS AN INCOMPETANT LIBERAL WHO NEEDS SOMEONE ELSE TO TAKE OF HIM!

Sec want a cracker? Sec want a cracker? :bang: Brwaaaackkkk!

JustRalph
09-10-2005, 01:41 PM
There you go again! Sec.....!!!

boxcar
09-10-2005, 02:32 PM
No Mayor or Governor in any hurricane has ever commandeered school buses to evacuate people - that includes Hurricane Floyd under Jeb Bush. Your namecalling DEMRAT, a typical tactic by you gets tiresome.

My point, if you'd read it, is that it was a shame that Amtrak and Greyhound had shutdown completely on Saturday night. The RTA transit buses were picking people up at the designated spots Nagin had announced. At the 24 hour mark there was no time for a mass transit evacuation without Amtrak and Greyhound running. The roads were jammed and some suburbs had arbitrarily at the last moment decided to shut off evacaution roads so that their communties would not be victims of looters fleeing NO.

Did Nagin do everything right? He admits he made mistakes. But nothing compared to those made by your guitar playing hero in office.

Nagin is the one closest to the scene, to the devastation, to everything that was going on before, during and after -- therefore the inescapable logical conclusion is that he was best suited to know precisely what's going on and what the immediate needs were. He, above everyone else, is most culpable to the charges of total incompetence, gross negligence and dereliction of duty.

The next in line, right behind Mayor Tweedelee Dee is Gov Tweedelee Dum. Talk about classic Tragic Comedy! These two have never been on the same page since Day One! And they're still not! (In fact, a politically well-informed buddy of mine recently told me that there is certainly bad blood between these two morons. One of the big reasons is that the Gov was a big Kerry supporter, whereas the Mayor, odly enough, supported Bush. When or if I find time, I'm going to research this claim.)

The utter lack of leadership in NO still continues. Some FNC reporter just reported less than an hour ago that he's hearing all kinds of negative things on the ground about this lack of leadership from members of the NOPD!
One group of officers said that they haven't heard a thing from their police chief or Nagin since before the hurricane! So...what these officers have done is seize the initiative, assume some responsibility and help in any way they can on their own.

And, Sec, thank you very much for making my case (as well as many others' here) that mandatory evacuation did not take place soon enough. Do you ever listen to yourself when you speak? Do you really read and try to digest what it is you write? Look at some of your own words above:

"At the 24 hour mark there was no time for mass transit evacuation.."

And again:

"The roads were jammed and some suburbs had arbitrarily at the last moment
decided to shut off evacaution roads..."

Okay...so now I get it: Bush knew everything, and Tweedelee Dee knew nothing! Ignorance is bliss and, therefore, forgivable! Bush knew about the design limitations of the levees. Bush knew that most of NO is below sea level. Bush knew about the large number of pooooor people who didn't have transportation to escape. Bush knew that NO was in the trajectory of a potentially large and very dangerous storm -- 72 hours out. But because Bush is a racist and cares not a whit about black people (most especially the pooooor ones), this motivated him to turn a blind eye to all he knew. Well sir, two can play this blame game. And I'll play it a lot better than you or any other Lib.

If Nagin didn't know these things, then the guy is no smarter than the mentally retarded, and doesn't belong in office. But if he did know all these things, why didn't he take appropiate action a lot sooner than he did? What was his rational for playing the waiting game? Maybe he had ulterior motives for waiting and waiting and waiting. Remember this, sir: Mayor Tweedelee Dee issued a mandatory evacutation order a mere 20 hours before the storm made landfall! TWENTY HOURS! This is less than 1/3 of the optimal evactuation window. What's with that!?

Next, the use of buses was in the city's evacuation plan! Why was it in the plan? Because NO is a poverty-ridden city -- that's why! The local officials, planners, engineers, etc. who drew up those plans knew all too well that tens of thousands had no means to transport themselves out of the bowl. Who is in the better position to know the deomographics of a communtiy that those who live there!?

Your argument is that Bush, knowing all the things I mentioned above, should have taken extreme and unusual measures and called the troops in to rescue the poooor black people. In other words, he should have usurped the authority of Gov Tweedelee Dum, and invoked the Insurrection Act (questionalbly legal), and just taken over with federal troops under federal command. Isn't this your argument?

Well, then, how come you let Nagin off the hook? Even if the buses weren't in the evacuation plan, shouldn't he lawfully have taken the bull by the horns and ordered the police and city-employed bus drivers to get into all those buses and drive all those pooor people out of the flood bowl long before 20 hours before landfall? IOW, sir, he could have made things happen -- rather than waiting for others to make it happen for him. But you see, Sec, this isn't in the liberal mindset. One of the secrert code words for Libealism is Dependancy. That moron was depending on Amtrak and private buses to "bail out his city" (forgive the bad pun).

So, why has Tweedelee Dees' and Tweedelee Dum's overall response before, during and after the hurricane been characterized (and still is!) by indeciseveness and procrastination? Liberals come up with the simple-minded answer when pointing fingers at Bush, i.e. he's a racist. Well, may I suggest that, perhaps, there's some latent racism residing in these two hearts? Think about it.

Already, people are talking about how NO is going to be rebuilt and be better than ever. People are already speculating how this tragedy just might break the cycle of poverty in NO. How this tragedy might provide a fresh, new start for so many pooooor black people. How this tragedy will provide so many jobs once the rebuilding gets underway. Therefore, it's not such a far stretch that many Libs in LA could have been "secretly" hoping for a large disaster -- because then Nanny Fed would have to step in and provide more billions in aid to NO than any of is can comprehend! Nanny Fed would have to come running to the rescue. Nanny Fed would become NO's savior.

Oh...do I hear you object to this theory of ulterior motives? Are you offended? But why? Liberalism is a morally bankrupt ideology; therefore, it's not suprising that so many of its adherents, by necessity, are just as morally depraved! Don't believe me? Go to the DUmmies site and read what some of your soul brother whackos were wishing before the storm hit. What makes it even worse is that they wanted a catastrophe strictly for opportunistic reasons of blaming Bush. Therefore, it's not so far-fectched to believe that some Liberals in high places, at the state and local levels in LA, might have rationalized "nobler" reasons, as stated above. What better way would there be to get the Feds to subsidize the rebuilding of an entire city? What more could a Liberal hope for!?

Before taking my leave, permit me to tell you what I would have done about the approaching hurricane if I had been living in NO, and why I would have take this action:

If there's one thing that characterizes virtually all hurricanes -- that is, the nature of these storms -- even in this day and age of all our technology, our sophisticated satellite imagery, our computerized modelling capabilities, etc., it could be summed up in one word: UNPREDICTABILITY. These storms have long been known their fickleness. This is why for many decades they were assigned female names -- until this became politically incorrrect.

These storms have been known to demonstrate their unpredicatable nature in many ways -- by changing course even more than once, by weakening suddenly then strengthening, by strengnthening then weakening, by stalling out at a virtual standstill, by suddenly accelerating at rapid forward speed, by being a wet storm, by being a "dry" but very windy storm, etc. "Unpredicatablity" is the one term that best desciribes the nature of most hurricanes.

Secondly, chances are pretty good that when a hurricane still has quite a bit of warm water in its path, it will gain strength. This is precisely what happend with Katrina. What may have been a Cat 2 on Friday didn't stay that way for long, did it?

Thirdly, why would anyone want to put their faith in and bet on a man-made levee system going up against the Forces of Nature? Is anything Man-made stronger than these Forces?

Fourthly, why would anyone want to "wait it out" to see how the storm develops when procrastination could cause serious and irreversible evacuation complications? Why get caught in a huge stampede to get out of town, such as what the whole world witnessed on the Sunday before landfall?

Next, given all the above considerations, was it really smart to play the waiting game in a city that is, for the most part, below sea level? This fact alone greatly increases the risks to life way beyond those of most other cities that are on higher ground.

And finally, why wait, thinking, that there is always the Dome to keep me safe when the area around the Dome could be surrounded by water, making access afterward by relief people very difficult at best!? Bobby seems to think that the Dome plan was the greatest idea since the invention of the light bulb! But I think not! It was actually a very poor idea (relative to early evactuation) because all those people could have been cut off from rescue and/or relief efforts for quite some time after the storm passed.

So...for all these above reasons, plus my very healthy respect for the Forces of Nature and the unpredictable nature of these storms, I would have packed my wife and six puddies (none of which travel well!) into one of our vehicles and headed out of town Friday morning or afternoon at latest when the storm reached CAT 2. I would not have relied on government at any level to make that kind of decision with a life or death potential. I would have relied on my general knowledge of these storms, and I would have been intently focused on what the meterorologists were saying.

My thinking about this woud have been simple, but logical and rational:

Better to err on the side of caution than on the side of foolishness.

Boxcar

Secretariat
09-10-2005, 03:08 PM
Box,

Way too much crap of yours to read. You keep repeating the same incorrect assertions over and over which I've addressed time and again, so I'll suggest you go back slowly and reread my posts.

As to your new issue of "blaming" the libs and the people NO for having to rebuild NO, well I think "fearless leader with the sweet guitar" had already made his pronouncement about a week back. At that point people in NO were just clamoring for food and water, but GW joked aroud with Trent about the old days on his porch and drinking in the Quarter and guess what, ole GW committed to rebuilding NO. No lib prodding at all. He did that all on his own. And of course he did, and he's already got the no bid contracts going for Bechtel and Cheney's Halliburton buddies.

ljb
09-10-2005, 04:55 PM
Box,
Don't you have anything else to do ?
Do you remember the song "The name game"? I here they are bringing it back out only now it will be the Blame game.
All together now:
Scotty, Scotty bo botty botty SCOtty. put it to music it rings true as a bell. :D

boxcar
09-11-2005, 12:42 AM
Secretariat wrote:

Way too much crap of yours to read. You keep repeating the same incorrect assertions over and over which I've addressed time and again, so I'll suggest you go back slowly and reread my posts.

Yeah...to a liberal's mind common sense = "too much crap". The same stuff that's stuffed between your ears.

As to your new issue of "blaming" the libs and the people NO for having to rebuild NO, well I think "fearless leader with the sweet guitar" had already made his pronouncement about a week back.

He can make all the grand pronouncements he wants about rebuilding. But getting congress to approve all the funding for such a grandiose scheme will be something else again.

At that point people in NO were just clamoring for food and water...

Oh yeah, I remember that. That's when Gov Tweedelee Dumb wouldn't let the relief agencies into the city. Another utterly stupid decision a liberal government official made on top of the idiotic one the liberal Mayor Tweedelee Dee made when he ordered that 25,000+ pooooor black folks be herded into the Dome like cattle, which was more or less in the path of the storm. (Oh, yeah...I but I forgot: He did tell them to pack at least a three-day lunch because he knew there wouldn't be any food in there.) :rolleyes:

Boxcar

Lefty
09-11-2005, 01:06 AM
Box, too much logic, too many facts. Liberals would rather say something inane like, looky Bush is playing the guitar and joking around while people are stranded in NO. Yes, Bush had all the wheels in motion he could get in motion to help those people, yet he can't have a little time for himself? What's really strange is playing the guitar and joking is a no-no for repubs but it's perfectly ok for a dem to get a bj in the oval office. Geez!

Secretariat
09-11-2005, 01:38 AM
Maybe you're right Lefty. Maybe Katrina was Clinton's fault for getting a bj.

Lefty
09-11-2005, 01:42 AM
sec, now you're being purposely dense and you know that's not what I said. But following your twisted logic: if Bush hadn't played the guitar then the pipples in NO would have been fed and had immediate shelter. See what a silly game you play?

Secretariat
09-11-2005, 05:51 AM
sec, now you're being purposely dense and you know that's not what I said. But following your twisted logic: if Bush hadn't played the guitar then the pipples in NO would have been fed and had immediate shelter. See what a silly game you play?

You don't get it Lefty. If you read Bush's account from the 2000 debates with Gore he talks about the improtance of immediately responding to natural disasters. Here is the largest one to ever impact the delta region, and on Tuesday, images were being piped around the world of people without food and water in NO, and GW has time to sit and play the guitar? Shades of Nero, while Rome burned he played. Your argument in Roman times I guess would be, well if Nero hadn't played, Rome still would've burned, so what's so wrong with Nero playing? See Lefty, it reflects a lack of priorities, an indifference at a time when leadership was needed. See what a silly game you're playing.