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ljb
07-03-2005, 09:59 PM
The latest on this illegal activity has Karl Rove as the possible source for outing cia operative Valarie Plaime (sp). What do you think he should get for this terroists type act ? Last I heard such activity was considered treason. If he was in Texas they would probably hang his sorry ass. :D :D

kenwoodallpromos
07-03-2005, 10:14 PM
Give him what Clinton got for pardoning Rich.
Give him what Joe Kennedy got for selling oil to Hitler.
Give him what John Kennedy got for not backing the Cubans in the Bay of Pigs.
Give him what Bobby Kennedy got for illegally deporting a few allefged mafioso.
Give them all the boot and give us a 3rd party President!

ljb
07-03-2005, 11:55 PM
Give him what Clinton got for pardoning Rich.
Give him what Joe Kennedy got for selling oil to Hitler.
Give him what John Kennedy got for not backing the Cubans in the Bay of Pigs.
Give him what Bobby Kennedy got for illegally deporting a few allefged mafioso.
Give them all the boot and give us a 3rd party President!
So then, in your mind treason is no worse then lesser crimes such as Cheney selling equipment to Saddam while he was under U.N. sanctions ?

ljb
07-04-2005, 02:22 AM
And how long before this comes to pass ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://www.needlenose.com/i/swopa/RoveMarch.jpg

kenwoodallpromos
07-04-2005, 02:42 AM
The worse treason was both parties failing to insure cockpit doors were reinforced.
You can play relative party politics all you want, but I am inpartial. Go after whoever is guilty and let the chips fall.
You can hold any slanted opinion you want.
The Bush admin has done a lot of illegal stuff. Most all presidents and admins have on both sides.
There is very little incentive for the Wash politicos to straighten up their act as long as the voters keep being brainewashed into favoring 1 side or the other and incumbents at the polls.
I vote most 3rd party, some Demos, very few Repubs.
I have voted for Demos, Repubs, and a Green who after a couple of terms proved to be corrupt or bought off by the corps or "special interests".
Demo- John Vasconcellos; Repub- Arnold; Green- Audie Bock.
For Pres I have voted for 2 Demos, 2 independents, 4 3rd parties, and no Repubs.
I thought Rove was merely a "party of interest" but I guess you have him convicted. Good luck trying to get the Demos in Congress to do anything but rant and rave and spout idioms.
Congress might as well subpoena racehorses to talk about drugs in racing.

Buckeye
07-04-2005, 03:23 AM
"They're all crooks except for my guy."

No, that probably includes him or her too!

When and if things get bad enough (which is not the case at this time), the People will do something about it. Until then, they won't.

JustRalph
07-04-2005, 11:23 AM
Who cares who outted the bitch. She was part of a dysfuntional useless organization anyway. Isn't that the same organization that provided all the "bad intel" you guys screamed about for a year or more.

Karl Rove will be a pain in the proverbial backside of Dems for the next 5 elections.........get used to it.

ljb
07-04-2005, 12:31 PM
The worse treason was both parties failing to insure cockpit doors were reinforced.
You can play relative party politics all you want, but I am inpartial. Go after whoever is guilty and let the chips fall.
You can hold any slanted opinion you want.
The Bush admin has done a lot of illegal stuff. Most all presidents and admins have on both sides.
There is very little incentive for the Wash politicos to straighten up their act as long as the voters keep being brainewashed into favoring 1 side or the other and incumbents at the polls.
I vote most 3rd party, some Demos, very few Repubs.
I have voted for Demos, Repubs, and a Green who after a couple of terms proved to be corrupt or bought off by the corps or "special interests".
Demo- John Vasconcellos; Repub- Arnold; Green- Audie Bock.
For Pres I have voted for 2 Demos, 2 independents, 4 3rd parties, and no Repubs.
I thought Rove was merely a "party of interest" but I guess you have him convicted. Good luck trying to get the Demos in Congress to do anything but rant and rave and spout idioms.
Congress might as well subpoena racehorses to talk about drugs in racing.

Kenwoodall,
Yes they are all crooks and liars, I agree. However who has your personal best interests in mind? There are many on this board that feigned total anger with Clinton for getting a knob job in the Whitehouse. Now we have an administration that has put us in a quagmire in Iraq resulting in over 1700 dead Americans and thousands of dead Iraqui’s and thousands of young Americans returning home with disabling injuries. We have the largest deficit in history with no method/plan to pay it down. We have a Whitehouse chief of staff who is suspected of a treasonous act. This administration has gained power by deceiving many (what ever happened to the amendment to ban gay marriages )? The local and state governments are all strapped for money, where is the money promised to local governments for first time responders ? And those Clinton bashers on board close their eyes to these atrocities. Perhaps it is because they got a better tax refund, do you think so ? As I said earlier, next time you vote you should concern yourself with who really has your best interests in mind.

ljb
07-04-2005, 12:33 PM
Who cares who outted the bitch. She was part of a dysfuntional useless organization anyway. Isn't that the same organization that provided all the "bad intel" you guys screamed about for a year or more.

Just,
Isn't the outing of a CIA operative considered a crime in your neighborhood?

kenwoodallpromos
07-04-2005, 12:51 PM
I guess my state of Ca is just too liberal for you; They do not hang a "possible source" like you are ready to do.
Take a look at the Constitution, the 4th ammendment- about due process and fair trial- I do not think it says only Demo "possible suspects" get rights because the Demos did not exist then.
I'm for strictly following the Constitution- property rights, fair trial, no OFFICIAL govt church, the right to own a single shot musket, and abortion on demand if you find it there.
I have refused to sit on 2 juries because the cases were unfair.
My Guy- Ross Perot in 92 and 96 and Ralph Nader in 200 and 2004- would uphold the govt laws and rules and go legally after the bad guys in govt and big business.
Like I said before and was in the news, if Kerry was your guy, he and his VP both were absent for the Porter Goss vote. So tell me who gives a rat's rear about the CIA.

kenwoodallpromos
07-04-2005, 12:57 PM
Nader view-
Using the FOIA as a crowbar, Public Citizen has repeatedly challenged the anti-democratic culture of secrecy that thrives at the Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Council. ****While there are clearly many legitimate state secrets*****, history has shown that "national security" has been a grossly abused rationale, used more to avoid accountability than to protect valid secrets.
_____________
Reasoned rebellion! :D :D

Suff
07-04-2005, 01:21 PM
Who cares who outted the bitch. She was part of a dysfuntional useless organization anyway. Isn't that the same organization that provided all the "bad intel" you guys screamed about for a year or more.

Karl Rove will be a pain in the proverbial backside of Dems for the next 5 elections.........get used to it.
say waa? need an icon for befuddled.

Agents in Great Britian report on everything from economics, anglo-irish relations, social conditions, current potical conditions and so on. She's not Deep CIA. Book worm...reads everything, types up a useless report.

You knock the group that put together and run Gitmo, and are responsible for a large chunk of the war on terra? That's a bad sign coming from the hard right. You don't trust the group you support giving unprecedented authority to infringe on civil rights. chilling.


You can't out CIA agents Ralph.... :lol: Seriously wtf you talking about "bitch" and she sucks anyway? That's truck stop talk.

Rove's gone before we get a new Justice. even money.

ljb
07-04-2005, 01:55 PM
I guess my state of Ca is just too liberal for you; They do not hang a "possible source" like you are ready to do.
Take a look at the Constitution, the 4th ammendment- about due process and fair trial- I do not think it says only Demo "possible suspects" get rights because the Demos did not exist then.
I'm for strictly following the Constitution- property rights, fair trial, no OFFICIAL govt church, the right to own a single shot musket, and abortion on demand if you find it there.
I have refused to sit on 2 juries because the cases were unfair.
My Guy- Ross Perot in 92 and 96 and Ralph Nader in 200 and 2004- would uphold the govt laws and rules and go legally after the bad guys in govt and big business.
Like I said before and was in the news, if Kerry was your guy, he and his VP both were absent for the Porter Goss vote. So tell me who gives a rat's rear about the CIA.

Ken, you are doing a hell of a lot of spinning over this. I just posted a statement that Rove is a suspect in this investigation. I have not hung him (albiet it would be my wish that he get hung out to dry). My primary reason was to show the hiprocracy of the Bush supporters on board and to continue to unvail the truth behind Bushco.

JustRalph
07-04-2005, 03:13 PM
I thought that would turn you guys out a little.

Of course it is a crime. But it wasn't like she was working deep cover somewhere (as suff points out)

The point of my post was that you guys on the left screamed about how terrible the CIA was in gathering info, suddenly you are the protectors of the faith when it comes to the CIA. Can you have it both ways? The left has protested at Colleges where the CIA has held recruiting seminars etc. The CIA is suddenly a protected class when it comes to one of them being used to smear Bush. Figures. Suff, have you ever heard or read anything plame has written. I have seen her interviewed.........bitch fits.........She wears the pants in that secret household...........gotta go.......headed for the truckstop for dinner..........

lsbets
07-04-2005, 04:15 PM
I believe Ken is following a great American tradition - innocent until proven guilty.

It's no surprise ljb doesn't understand something so basically American.

I think of Dan Akroyd when I read ljb's posts:

"Ljb you ignorant slut!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

ljb
07-04-2005, 04:35 PM
I believe Ken is following a great American tradition - innocent until proven guilty.

It's no surprise ljb doesn't understand something so basically American.

I think of Dan Akroyd when I read ljb's posts:

"Ljb you ignorant slut!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
ls,
Personal attacks add nothing to a discussion. Thanks for nothing. :D :D :D

ljb
07-04-2005, 04:37 PM
I thought that would turn you guys out a little.

Of course it is a crime. But it wasn't like she was working deep cover somewhere (as suff points out)

The point of my post was that you guys on the left screamed about how terrible the CIA was in gathering info, suddenly you are the protectors of the faith when it comes to the CIA. Can you have it both ways? The left has protested at Colleges where the CIA has held recruiting seminars etc. The CIA is suddenly a protected class when it comes to one of them being used to smear Bush. Figures. Suff, have you ever heard or read anything plame has written. I have seen her interviewed.........bitch fits.........She wears the pants in that secret household...........gotta go.......headed for the truckstop for dinner..........
Just,
This has nothing to do with the CIA. This has to do with a high ranking Whitehouse official who may be a traitor. Is there nothing these neocons wont do to maintain there hold?

lsbets
07-04-2005, 04:49 PM
PA, can we get a teary eyed graphic for everytime ljb breaks out in tears when people reply to his posts? Do you need a tissue ljb, or a Tampax?

Tom
07-04-2005, 05:07 PM
Here ya go. LS......:D

JustRalph
07-04-2005, 05:11 PM
Just,
Is there nothing these neocons wont do to maintain there hold?

no there is not. and that is the way I like them..........all or nothing. Kind of like Tom Delay..........and you guys hate them for the same reasons I like them.

Suff
07-04-2005, 05:36 PM
no there is not. and that is the way I like them..........all or nothing. Kind of like Tom Delay..........and you guys hate them for the same reasons I like them.

I pay little attention to the Polls. the people that recently left the President , will run right back at the first sign of light, or move away with more bad news. They're not my kind of people, so I do not use the presidents poor poll numbers as a weapon.

If and when OBL makes another appearance and I'll be standing alone in the cold.

I'm more interested in the divisions within the Republican party. Even a casual observer see's the cracks in the armor.

The Presidents speech today had an undercurrent of he knows something we don't. I smell blood in the water. Republican's are bad mouthing other Republicans.

Tom
07-04-2005, 05:40 PM
"The Presidents speech today had an undercurrent of he knows something we don't. I smell blood in the water. Republican's are bad mouthing other Republicans."

Nothing to worry about, Suff. Off year batting practice, that's all. :lol:

wonatthewire1
07-04-2005, 06:26 PM
Well, somebody outted a CIA agent...

The real question should be > why and to what purpose?

Wilson had done a lot of work on the "Niger Yellowcake" story and found that the accusations about seeking nuclear materials in this manner was unfounded.

When government gets petty > and the attacks get vicious we all lose > and a lot of people have lost their lives over a fabrication as being a reason to go to the battlefield > check back on the Memorial Day posting > those lives cannot be brought back, ever.

_______________________________

PS where did Rove get that tie in the Photoshopped picture > he should be arrested for poor taste alone :eek:

JustRalph
07-04-2005, 07:10 PM
Wilson had done a lot of work on the "Niger Yellowcake" story and found that the accusations about seeking nuclear materials in this manner was unfounded

I beg to differ.............Wilson has a credibility problem of his own.........

As reported in the July 10, 2004, Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html):

Wilson last year launched a public firestorm with his accusations that the administration had manipulated intelligence to build a case for war. He has said that his trip to Niger should have laid to rest any notion that Iraq sought uranium there and has said his findings were ignored by the White House.

Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.

The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.

Yesterday's report said that whether Iraq sought to buy lightly enriched "yellowcake" uranium from Niger is one of the few bits of prewar intelligence that remains an open question. Much of the rest of the intelligence suggesting a buildup of weapons of mass destruction was unfounded, the report said.

The report turns a harsh spotlight on what Wilson has said about his role in gathering prewar intelligence, most pointedly by asserting that his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, recommended him.

ljb
07-04-2005, 10:42 PM
no there is not. and that is the way I like them..........all or nothing. Kind of like Tom Delay..........and you guys hate them for the same reasons I like them.
So basically what you are saying is "treason is acceptable behaviour as long as it is for the party" Sounds like fascism to me. But that's another thread.

ljb
07-04-2005, 10:47 PM
PA, can we get a teary eyed graphic for everytime ljb breaks out in tears when people reply to his posts? Do you need a tissue ljb, or a Tampax?
ls,
When you first returned to the U.S. from your tour of duty, you showed signs of responsibility and logic. You seem to have regressed some. Are you doing ok? Or do you perhaps need more counseling ?

lsbets
07-04-2005, 10:56 PM
Hey Tom, can you e-mail ljb that graphic to attach to his posts? He cries more than my 10 month old.

Tom
07-04-2005, 11:25 PM
How about this one!

PaceAdvantage
07-05-2005, 01:06 AM
Where is this story about CIA and Rove outing? I just clicked on yahoo news, and it's nowhere in the top stories. Did I blink and miss it?

lsbets
07-05-2005, 01:11 AM
PA, a reporter said that Rove was the source but that has not been confirmed, the only thing that has been confirmed is that the guy from Time talked to Rove and several others when doing the story. What they talked about no one knows. However, that has not stopped some people from deciding to convict based on rumor. As I pointed out, it does not surprise me at all that certain people don't understand that simple, American concept - innocent until proven guilty. I'm sure if a crime was committed, whoever committed that crime will be prosecuted, and until then I'm not concerned with the radical left rumor mill.

kenwoodallpromos
07-05-2005, 02:39 AM
"Under certain circumstances, the exposure of a covert government agent would violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, carrying a maximum sentence of 10 years."
The article says at the time she recommended her husband for the Nigeria thing Valerie was not acting covertly.
Sorry, no hanging for Carl. You can hope he gets busted after a Hillary gets in so Bush cannot pardon him! :eek:

Buckeye
07-09-2005, 12:09 PM
1700 is a big number.

What was (is) it for though?

Bonus points if you can get it right.

ElKabong
07-09-2005, 02:19 PM
Listened to a Bob Woodward interview on NPR on the way home from work last nite. One topic was Valerie Plame/ Karl Rove. Paraphrasing Woodward, "Plame was based at the hdqtrs, not in the field. So if anyone were to mention her in the supposed context as was reported in the media in this matter, it wouldn't constitute a crime of any sort. No judge would, or could, proceed on this would-be case b/c there was no law broken."

Not sure if I heard that on Brancaccio's show or the show behind it. Was about 6:30pm or so Dallas time.

Suff
07-09-2005, 02:23 PM
1700 is a big number.

What was (is) it for though?

Bonus points if you can get it right.

Deep answer or simple answer?

1700 Pennsylvannia Avenue? White House Address.

Your intended meaning prevents me from guessing otherwise. If I'm wrong , give me a whiff of where your going and I'll follow along.

Suff
07-09-2005, 02:38 PM
WH is 1600..

ljb
07-09-2005, 03:17 PM
Listened to a Bob Woodward interview on NPR on the way home from work last nite. One topic was Valerie Plame/ Karl Rove. Paraphrasing Woodward, "Plame was based at the hdqtrs, not in the field. So if anyone were to mention her in the supposed context as was reported in the media in this matter, it wouldn't constitute a crime of any sort. No judge would, or could, proceed on this would-be case b/c there was no law broken."

Not sure if I heard that on Brancaccio's show or the show behind it. Was about 6:30pm or so Dallas time.
Elk,
Glad to hear you have chosen Woodward as your judge/jury in this case. My thoughts were more simplistic. If you out a CIA undercover operative, you have committed treason. To me makes no difference, she could have been at the walmart buying chinese product for all I care. She was outed and Karl Rove is suspect in this outing.

ElKabong
07-09-2005, 03:25 PM
Elk,
Glad to hear you have chosen Woodward as your judge/jury in this case. My thoughts were more simplistic. If you out a CIA undercover operative, you have committed treason. To me makes no difference, she could have been at the walmart buying chinese product for all I care. She was outed and Karl Rove is suspect in this outing.

Unlike you I don't lock in on one point of view, ljb. I listen to all I can and go from there. Btw, the time I head the interview was 5:30 (not 6:30--my mistake) so it was on NPR's national base show.

Plame was a desk jockey at the time. Nothing more. If you have any proof that Rove was the one who "outed her", bring it on. Otherwise you're simply being the board's Rumor Ass Clown as usual.

ljb
07-09-2005, 03:27 PM
Unlike you I don't lock in on one point of view, ljb. I listen to all I can and go from there. Btw, the time I head the interview was 5:30 (not 6:30--my mistake) so it was on NPR's national base show.

Plame was a desk jockey at the time. Nothing more. If you have any proof that Rove was the one who "outed her", bring it on. Otherwise you're simply being the board's Rumor Ass Clown as usual.
Hey jerk off,
Where did I say that Karl Rove outed her?

PaceAdvantage
07-09-2005, 04:48 PM
Easy on the insults boys...I'm more pro-active now....

46zilzal
07-09-2005, 05:17 PM
The suspicion is that someone in the White House leaked the identity of Plame to the press in retaliation for an opinion piece her husband had written in the New York Times that attacked the Bush administration for intelligence failures. Novak revealed Plame's name in a July 14, 2003 column.

Rove was first mentioned as a possibility mainly through the efforts of Plame's husband, former U.S. Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, who said he had received phone calls from journalists saying that Rove was talking about Plame.

Weeks later, Wilson, responding to a question about the leak investigation, said he thought it might be "fun to see Karl Rove frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs."

Tom
07-09-2005, 08:14 PM
Sorry 46....even if he did leak it, it is not a crime. No laws were broken.

I agree it was dispicable and unaccetpable, but tell me the truth, you are only interested in this becasue it is a conservative under suspision, araen't you?
If it was a lib or dem, you would not be posting about it at all.

46zilzal
07-09-2005, 08:27 PM
but tell me the truth, you are only interested in this because it is a conservative under suspision, araen't you? If it was a lib or dem, you would not be posting about it at all.
IF this guy were from wherever or was a GREEN party member his actions would not be addressed any differently Not all ALL...I sincerely love the Goebel's wannabee and he will richly get what he deserves. This guy is a real piece of work who believes he is untouchable.....kind of like DICK of the 70's

ljb
07-09-2005, 09:59 PM
Sorry 46....even if he did leak it, it is not a crime. No laws were broken.

Are you saying outing of an undercover cia agent is not a crime ?

JustRalph
07-09-2005, 10:37 PM
Are you saying outing of an undercover cia agent is not a crime ?

Get over it..... whomever outted the broad, Outted a desk jockey.........not a real on the line agent. who the hell could give a damn about that?

Tom
07-09-2005, 11:01 PM
Ralph, while the ends sere not serious, the means stink.
I draw the line at that.
But it is so easy to find out who it was....put that punk Kovak's ass in jail til he rots or talks. What he did was not jornalism, not reporting, and in no way benefited the public, therefore not protected as a source.
We have to raise the bar on everyone.

But having said that,.....HAHAHAHAHA......these libdemwackos are just plain vengeful and even more inept. Gotta go all the way back to Tricky Dicky to find their last triump!

46zilzal
07-10-2005, 01:09 AM
Get over it..... whomever outted the broad, Outted a desk jockey.........not a real on the line agent. who the hell could give a damn about that?
Only give a DAMN about the "correct" people hey??? the folks who are out of a job and put into harm's way don't count...

hcap
07-10-2005, 06:49 AM
ElKabongListened to a Bob Woodward interview on NPR on the way home from work last nite. One topic was Valerie Plame/ Karl Rove. Paraphrasing Woodward, "Plame was based at the hdqtrs, not in the field. So if anyone were to mention her in the supposed context as was reported in the media in this matter, it wouldn't constitute a crime of any sort. No judge would, or could, proceed on this would-be case b/c there was no law broken."Despicable in either case. Newsweek will break a story today tying in rove as a leaker. Not good news for Mr.war preznit.

"This new evidence could place Rove in serious political, if not legal, jeopardy (or, at least it should). If what I am told is true, this is proof that the Bush White House was using any information it could gather on Joseph Wilson--even classified information related to national security--to pursue a vendetta against Wilson, a White House critic. Even if it turns out Rove did not break the law regarding the naming of intelligence officials, this new disclosure could prove Rove guilty of leaking a national security secret to a reporter for political ends. What would George W. Bush do about that?"

http://davidcorn.com/
David Corn

JustRalph
07-10-2005, 01:43 PM
Only give a DAMN about the "correct" people hey??? the folks who are out of a job and put into harm's way don't count...

yep, and I don't give a damn about Doctor's who ran off to canada..........

46zilzal
07-10-2005, 02:39 PM
yep, and I don't give a damn about Doctor's who ran off to canada..........
person moves from one locale to another is not running off...CJ moved to Europe ....Did he run off? no he moved...

JustRalph
07-10-2005, 03:08 PM
person moves from one locale to another is not running off...CJ moved to Europe ....Did he run off? no he moved...

nope........he went to Belgium in service of his country..........exactly the opposite of your little move

46zilzal
07-10-2005, 03:54 PM
you fellows make out being in the military as some hallowed experience akin to a religious epiphany...most of my friends thoght it closer to a fraternity initiation EVERYDAY

46zilzal
07-10-2005, 04:00 PM
most of the jinogists I have met were older

JustRalph
07-10-2005, 05:40 PM
most of the jinogists I have met were older

man, this spelling thing is getting to be too much!

You spell worse than the President's Grammar.

We are going to have to start calling you the kumquat

Secretariat
07-10-2005, 06:29 PM
I don't know who leaked it, but whoever did it is guilty of treason. It's not just Plame affected, but every agent she's come in contact with. I don't care what party you're rooting for...the act was stupendously stupid and puts lives at risk for purely political means. Let the judicial system do what it's supposed to do and prosecute the hell out of the perpetrator.

Tom
07-10-2005, 07:03 PM
"We are going to have to start calling you the kumquat"

PA has a mew policy. That might be pushing th envelope! :eek:

:lol: :rolleyes:

ElKabong
07-10-2005, 07:47 PM
the act was stupendously stupid and puts lives at risk for purely political means. .


Whose life was at risk? Plame's? What, is someone going to squirt her with a water gun at the water cooler or something?...

ElKabong
07-10-2005, 07:51 PM
ElKabongDespicable in either case. Newsweek will break a story today tying in rove as a leaker. Not good news for Mr.war preznit.


http://davidcorn.com/
David Corn


What kind of odds is Pinnacle offering on Newsweak apologizing for getting this story wrong, too? They do have that history of theirs.

boxcar
07-10-2005, 08:24 PM
ljb wrote:

Kenwoodall,
Yes they are all crooks and liars, I agree. However who has your personal best interests in mind?...As I said earlier, next time you vote you should concern yourself with who really has your best interests in mind.

Geesh...Do you ever listen to yourself, LJB? Or do all your thoughts originate inside a vacuum? In one breath you concede that "all" [politicians] (presumbably) are "crooks and liars"; but then in the next breath exhort Kenwoodall to concern himself with the crook and liar who has his best intersts in mind.

Tell us, LJB, which "crooks and liars" have this nation's best interests at heart!

Boxcar

wonatthewire1
07-10-2005, 08:56 PM
Whose life was at risk? Plame's? What, is someone going to squirt her with a water gun at the water cooler or something?...

EK,

She knows all of our people "on the ground" in the ME > that's who is in danger...it may have taken years and millions of dollars (not that that means anything to a govt) to get the right people in the right places for intelligence work...

The outing was extremely short sighted > but that can happen when those who are in power allow their hubris to control their emotions.

Tom
07-10-2005, 10:43 PM
Still no tie to Bush has been presented.

Where is that?

BTW....when did Dan Rather start writing for Newsweek?:jump:

Secretariat
07-10-2005, 10:48 PM
Quote is Rove's lawyer:

"The Newsweek weekly quoted Rove lawyer Robert Luskin as confirming that Rove was the source who gave information to Time reporter Matt Cooper under a pledge of confidentiality, and last week released him to testify about that conversation to a grand jury."

ljb
07-11-2005, 11:29 AM
ljb wrote:

[b]

Tell us, LJB, which "crooks and liars" have this nation's best interests at heart!

Boxcar
Well it very obviously is not the current batch of crooks and liars. As witnessed by such things as the national debt, the increase in terroism, the increase in living expenses for the regular folk and the growing number of dead in Iraq.

JustRalph
07-11-2005, 12:16 PM
From the Washington Post: 071105

"To be considered a violation of the law, a disclosure by a government official must have been deliberate, the person doing it must have known that the CIA officer was a covert agent, and he or she must have known that the government was actively concealing the covert agent's identity."

"Although the information is revelatory, it is still unknown whether Rove is a focus of the investigation. Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, has said that Special Prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has told him that Rove is not a target of the probe. Luskin said yesterday that Rove did not know Plame's name and was not actively trying to push the information into the public realm."

"Rove did not mention her name to Cooper," Luskin said. "This was not an effort to encourage Time to disclose her identity. What he was doing was discouraging Time from perpetuating some statements that had been made publicly and weren't true."

You gotta love Karl.........:D

46zilzal
07-11-2005, 12:37 PM
You gotta love Karl........
'bout as much as a carbuncle or anal fistula

hcap
07-11-2005, 02:14 PM
QUESTION: Has the President either asked Karl Rove to assure him that he had nothing to do with this; or did Karl Rove go to the President to assure him that he . . .

McCLELLAN: I don't think he needs that. I think I've spoken clearly to this publicly . . . I've just said there's no truth to it.

QUESTION: Yes, but I'm just wondering if there was a conversation between Karl Rove and the President, or if he just talked to you, and you're here at this . . .

McCLELLAN: He wasn't involved. The President knows he wasn't involved.

QUESTION: How does he know that?

McCLELLAN: The President knows.

Scott McClellan
Press Gaggle
September 29, 2003

QUESTION: Yesterday we were told that Karl Rove had no role in it. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

QUESTION: Have you talked to Karl and do you have confidence in him . . .

THE PRESIDENT: Listen, I know of nobody -- I don't know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action.

George W. Bush
Remarks to Reporters
September 30, 2003


Ok, "she wasn't covert.
Ok, "rove never leaked her name"
For those of you who use the letter of the law to dismiss rove's lie, I guess you must have to do the same for bushs'.
Bottom line Wilson brought light to the phony 16 words in the STOTU.
The white house sought revenge and to warn other whistle blowers not to crross their path.

Shades of "enemy list"

46zilzal
07-11-2005, 02:16 PM
Shades of "enemy list"
and remember the BIG name CROOKS on that list Paul Newman, MRS. Burt Lancaster and Lew Alcindor

JustRalph
07-11-2005, 02:28 PM
Bottom line Wilson brought light to the phony 16 words in the STOTU.The white house sought revenge and to warn other whistle blowers not to crross their path.

Shades of "enemy list"

you still harken back to the Wilson lies. The Senate comittee says he lied. Amazing, you still don't get it............

hcap
07-11-2005, 02:42 PM
I think G. H. W. Bush dumped Rove for leaking a story to Novak in ‘92. We know Rove does these kinds of things, and we also know that the investigation would have ended long ago unless there was a strong probability of prosecution of a major figure

Perjury? Time will tell. Meanwhile the war preznit plays the innocent.
He did claim to want to get to the truth.


Ralphy boy,

They retracted the 16 words
Remember? Who, your leeDURS


No WMDs
NO links to bin laden
etc.,etc,etc.
etc.,etc,etc.
etc.,etc,etc.
etc.,etc,etc.
etc.,etc,etc.
etc.,etc,etc.

lsbets
07-11-2005, 03:25 PM
Hcap - arguing with you is pointless, you don't care what the truth is, but I am somewhat amazed at how you and others on your side continue to say the same things over and over again regardless of their relationship to the truth. Two great examples from your last post:

No WMDs - wrong, the question is - where are the WMDs and if they do not exist at this time, what happenned to them? But to say none is an out and out lie.

No link to Al Quaeda - wrong again. Proven links and contacts. Anytime that comes up the response is "you guys are trying to link Iraq with 9/11 and thats not true." But, there you are wrong again. We're not talking about one attack - there have been a lot, we're talking about links between Al Quada and Saddam, and there were plenty of contacts, and Saddam was a major supporter of international terrorism - he provided safe harbor to terrorists and financial support to terrorists. That kind of makes him qualify as a supporter of terrorism.

But, the game plan from the left with the help of the mainstream media has been to repeat the same lies over and over again and hope that people begin to accept them as fact. Its unfortunate for you guys that there are many, many people who know better and don't let y'all get away with it.

46zilzal
07-11-2005, 04:37 PM
No WMDs - wrong, the question is - where are the WMDs and if they do not exist at this time, what happenned to them? But to say none is an out and out lie.

the PHANTOM weapons? I have a phantom bridge to sell people too.

PaceAdvantage
07-11-2005, 07:14 PM
He's saying Saddam never had weapons. But really, what he's saying is that Iraq was like it was pictured in Michael Moore's F 9/11.....nothing more than a giant theme park, with kids on ferris wheels, and folks dancing in the street with their beloved leader, Saddam Hussein.....until of course the US death machine marched in and ruined everyone's utopia.....

Whatever....

hcap
07-11-2005, 07:21 PM
Question: Scott, is the President aware of Karl Rove's role in leaking information about Joe Wilson's wife?

Mr. McClellan: Again, this is a Question relating to an ongoing investigation, and you have my response.

Question: Scott, without commenting on the investigation, you said in September of '03, if anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration. Does that standard still hold?

Mr. McClellan: Again, I appreciate all these questions. They are questions relating to an ongoing investigation, and the President directed us to cooperate fully with that investigation. No one wants to get to the bottom of it more than he does and --

Question: -- the standard then still apply?

Mr. McClellan: The investigation is ongoing, Peter, and we're just not going to -- we're not going to --

Question: Did the President set a timetable --

Question: It's not about the investigation, it's about the White House decision --

Mr. McClellan: We're not going to talk about it further from this podium.

More soon ...

(ed.note: There's often a bit of confusion about this. So let me again clarify. The above is not the on-air late-morning early-afternoon press briefing. The 'gaggle' is the early morning briefing. It's on the record. But it's not televised and the official transcript is not released to the public. I hear today's early afternoon press briefing was even worse than this above.)....Josh Marshall

WMDs?
You guys keep harping with "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

First David Kay, second Charles Duellfer.
Give it up.

hcap
07-11-2005, 07:25 PM
UPDATE: This press briefing is stunning. McClellan is refusing to say anything at all, not one word, about the Plame case. The reporters are outraged - NBC’s David Gregory just told McClellan that his stonewalling was “ridiculous.”

UPDATE II: McClellan’s line is that he will not comment on the investigation until the “appropriate time, which is when the investigation has concluded.” Actually, that’s not true — at all. The investigation began on September 28, 2003.

kenwoodallpromos
07-11-2005, 11:11 PM
I now agree Rove should be fired- but guilty of a crime? I will wait on the jury.

46zilzal
07-12-2005, 12:26 AM
Just got Joe Wilson's book to get a better understanding of all of this..See if it clears up anything

46zilzal
07-12-2005, 02:05 AM
April 26, 1999 at the re-dedication of the Langley HQ of the CIA " I have nothing but contempt and anger fro those who betray the trust by exposing the names of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors."

hcap
07-12-2005, 07:17 AM
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086461/

...Condoleezza Rice's July 30 interview with Gwen Ifill on PBS's NewsHour, in which Rice became the fourth Bush administration official to accept full responsibility for the inclusion of erroneous information in the State of the Union address. (Five if you include President Bush, who surely neither knew nor cared whether it was true that "Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.") In a lengthy and skillful interrogation, Rice wobbled.

Rice's challenge was to explain why she let Bush cite the yellowcake example in January when CIA Director George Tenet had sent a memo to her (and others) in October elaborating why the yellowcake example was no good. In accordance with Tenet's wishes, a reference to Saddam's yellowcake safari was removed from an Oct. 7 speech President Bush gave in Cincinnati. Yet the reference resurfaced in the State of the Union three months later.



OK, so if those "16 words", had merrit, why were they denied after they began to be questioned?
Because boys and girls, they were unsupportable by the evidence.
As it appears the entire war.
Joe Wilson was only reporting the truth.
His payoff? REVENGE by turdblossom and who else?

hcap
07-12-2005, 07:30 AM
The dress up preznit had this to say....
Press conference October 6, 2003


QUESTION: Mr. President, on another issue, the CIA Leakgate, what is your confidence level in the results of the DOJ investigation about any of your staffers not being found guilty or being found guilty? And what do you say to critics of the administration who say that this administration retaliates against naysayers?

BUSH: Now, well, first of all, I'm glad you brought that question up. This is a very serious matter. And our administration takes it seriously. As members of the press corps here know, I have, at times, complained about leaks of security information, whether the leaks be in the legislative branch or in the executive branch, and I take those leaks very seriously. And therefore, we will cooperate fully with the Justice Department.

I've got all the confidence in the world the Justice Department will be do a good, thorough job. And that's exactly what I want them to do is a good, thorough job. I'd like to know who leaked. And if anybody's got any information inside our government or outside our government who leaked, you ought to take it to the Justice Department, so we can find out the leaker.

I have told my staff, I want full cooperation with the Justice Department. And when they ask for information, we expect the information to be delivered on a timely basis. I expect it to be delivered on a timely basis. I want there to be full participation, because I am most interested in finding out the truth.

And, you know, there's a lot of leaking in Washington, D.C. It's a town famous for it.

BUSH: And if this helps stop leaks, this investigation in finding the truth, it'll not only hold someone to account who should not have leaked -- and this is a serious charge, by the way. We're talking about a criminal action. But also hopefully we'll help send a clear signal we expect other leaks to stop as well. (my emphasis)

And so I look forward to finding the truth.



It looks like bush has committed himself to serious action.
Soooo, George Bush promised that he would fire the leaker. Now that Karl Rove has been revealed as the leaker, what will Bush do? Obviously, he'll ask Karl Rove what to do. :lol: :lol: :lol:

46zilzal
07-12-2005, 07:12 PM
This may have been the broken law in all of this.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/iipa.html

ljb
07-12-2005, 08:37 PM
I have a link to a petition asking Bush to fire Rove. (As he said he would.) Just in case any of the "values" folks on board want to sign it.

Kreed
07-12-2005, 08:49 PM
I HATE that fat-faced drooling Rove, but for many reasons, but NOT, as of now,
treason. (Yes, I would call "outing" a CIA operative as Treason.) --- so far,
there seems No Evidence that he named HER, by Name. Now, i wouldn't be
shocked if evidence came out, but as of now, from what I read, it hasn't. so,
let's not indict yet.

ljb
07-12-2005, 08:51 PM
This may have been the broken law in all of this.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/iipa.html
Very interesting 46,
I'm going to set my vcr to record the perp walk. :D :D :D

Secretariat
07-12-2005, 09:34 PM
I have a link to a petition asking Bush to fire Rove. (As he said he would.) Just in case any of the "values" folks on board want to sign it.

I've signed it. The man's a traitor to every agent in the field. I don't just beleive he should be fired though, but incarcerated.

Lefty
07-12-2005, 10:25 PM
lbj, sec, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
This just another overreaction by the left in a desperate attempt to get ANYTHING on this adm.
The woman got her husband the job? Does she not think the reporters gonna find out and get her name? Far as i'm concerned she outed herself.
Try again, leftwing reactionaries.

Suff
07-12-2005, 10:43 PM
lbj, sec, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
This just another overreaction by the left in a desperate attempt to get ANYTHING on this adm.
The woman got her husband the job? Does she not think the reporters gonna find out and get her name? Far as i'm concerned she outed herself.
Try again, leftwing reactionaries.

Karl Rove's image on toast is up for Auction on Ebay.

Both sides are right. Those two are career poltical hacks who thought they mattered. *She was working at CIA headquarters in England so how "in" was she. (*to be confirmed). He was writing op-ed's in NY Times. Is THAT a good idea when your wife is deep covert WMD anaylst?

Democrats will take it as far as they can. Make no mistake if they get ROVE in a head-lock, they'll snap his neck.

Secretariat
07-12-2005, 11:18 PM
lbj, sec, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
This just another overreaction by the left in a desperate attempt to get ANYTHING on this adm.
The woman got her husband the job? Does she not think the reporters gonna find out and get her name? Far as i'm concerned she outed herself.
Try again, leftwing reactionaries.

Leftwing reactionaries? It's their fault huh?

"Previous RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie on MSNBC's Hardball, Sept. 30th, 2003:

CHRIS MATTHEWS: Don't you think it's more serious than Watergate, when you think about it?

RNC CHAIRMAN ED GILLESPIE: I think if the allegation is true, to reveal the identity of an undercover CIA operative -- it's abhorrent, and it should be a crime, and it is a crime.

CHRIS MATTHEWS: It'd be worse than Watergate, wouldn't it?

GILLESPIE: It's -- Yeah, I suppose in terms of the real world implications of it. It's not just politics."

OR LA Times today

"Luskin declined to say whether Rove knew that Plame was a covert agent, even if he did not know her name, which analysts said was a crucial factor in determining whether the law was broken.

Now that's interesting. Luskin was more than willing to speak to reporters about other particulars of the case that he felt helped his client: he's said Rove "never knowingly disclosed classified information", and that "Rove never identified Plame by name and never intended to reveal her identity."
But when asked that very simple, very central point -- whether or not Rove knew Plame was "covert" -- he suddenly declines to answer?"

Or GW himself:

"Bush at a June 10, 2004, press conference after the G8 summit:

Q: Given recent developments in the CIA leak case, particularly Vice President [Dick] Cheney's discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, a suggestion that it might be difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name?

BUSH: That's up to --

Q: And, and, do you stand by your pledge to FIRE anyone found to have done so?

BUSH: YES. And that's up to the U.S. attorney to find the facts."

I agree. Let Rove be tried. (And Novak as well). You still don't get this. It affects anyone Plame came in contact with. That's why even RNC Chairman Gillespie realized the magnitude of this betrayal. Maybe you don't like Wilson, or Plame, but for God's sakes you don't put CIA agents at risk for political gain. What can be more despicable. If the Clinton WH had done this you'd be screaming bloody murder, and I'd be in line with you Lefty, but feel free to defend your role (or rove) model for family values to the end.

ElKabong
07-12-2005, 11:36 PM
Question for all you dims that are bogged own on this issue......"What exactly is your goal here? "Is it for Rove to resign? Sure can't put him behind bars, he hasn't committed a crime.

What's your goal? Have him resign? There's a laugh. He'll simply continue to call the shots even if he's resigned. And he'll do it with that smile that seems to bother y'all, too.

You guys bring so little to the table nowdays. No wonder you can't win elections.

Lefty
07-12-2005, 11:53 PM
The goal is to embarass the Bush adm no matter what it takes.
Ever notice how the media always jumps in to help the dems in these things and when it's the dems who do wrong they jump in to help. But they're not biased, uh huh...
If it's so wrong to give out this woman's name why isn't the publishers and the reporters being vilified? If someone gives you a name that could hurt that person, it don't mean ya gotta run and blab it all over the universe.
What if it turns out to be someone other than Rove? Will there be apoligies, hmmmm?

ElKabong
07-13-2005, 12:33 AM
The Dems are good for laugh, you have to admit. Watching them go after W is like watching the 1940s comedy scene where a midget (dems) are swinging left and right and the tall dude w/ long arms (Rove or W) is simply putting a hand on the lil guys head. The midget just keeps swinging and missing and looking stupid while the (Repub) is laughing at the little loser.

Such is the life of a liberal Democrat in the 21rst century.

Zich, lil girl, Suff, sec, lbj are good for laugh. I'll give em that :D

46zilzal
07-13-2005, 12:50 AM
The goal is to embarass the Bush adm no matter what it takes.

and the other guys didn't do the same thing with the Lewinski hummer???

46zilzal
07-13-2005, 01:22 AM
What if it turns out to be someone other than Rove? Will there be apoligies, hmmmm?
Wilson, in his book, says he thought it could be one of three people

Secretariat
07-13-2005, 01:45 AM
The goal is to embarass the Bush adm no matter what it takes.


Lefty, they've already done a heckuva job embarassing themselves. You still don't get this. This is about a man who according to his attorney leaked this information which put her life in danger as well as any contacts that she had established. Purposely or not, his attorney said he leaked the information. Novak is trying to save his rear end by working with the prosecution. I cannot fathom that you would defend anyone simply because they are a Republican.

I'm not going to keep reposting the WH promises to fire this man, and prosecute him, or the RNC Chairman saying the revealing of this agent is paramount to Watergate in his own words to Chris Mathews on Hardball or many other quotes promising action against this by McClellan and Bush.

Lefty, if you step back and honestly look at what occurred here, you'll realize that this man has revealed classified information which has put the lives of people at risk for politcal reasons. No one in that position should do that.

PaceAdvantage
07-13-2005, 04:05 AM
Has Rove been confirmed as the guy who leaked the info?

hcap
07-13-2005, 07:01 AM
http://www.alternet.org/story/23506/

Back in October of 2003, shortly after Robert Novak -- over CIA protestations -- published Plame's identity, a group of former CIA agents testified before a Senate Democratic Policy Committee on the outing of their colleague. The agents, Larry Johnson, Michael Grimaldi and Brent Cavan, all of whom are Republicans, pulled no punches in their shared statement:

"We also want to send a clear message to the political 'operatives' responsible for 'outing' Mrs. Wilson. Such action was treacherous, if not treasonous...Such action has allowed the less attractive aspects of politics to supersede the Government's responsibility to protect the citizens of this nation and the individuals who serve in difficult, dangerous covert capacities. This has set a sickening precedent. The 'senior Administration officials' who did this have warned all U.S. intelligence officers and the intelligence community that any one individual may be compromised if providing information or factual analysis the White House does not like."


.....Washington Post reported, "Every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through its databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had visited their country and to reconstruct her activities."

The article also warned that, "Intelligence officials have said that once Plame's job as an undercover operative was revealed, other agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources might be compromised or endangered."

hcap
07-13-2005, 07:16 AM
BTW, The leak also exposed a longstanding CIA proprietary company, Brewster Jennings & Associates, where Plame worked. The Boston- and Washington-based front company had, since 1994, been tracking weapons of mass destruction, through a network of agents and correspondents in a such dangerous places as Iran, North Korea, Belarus, Israel, Pakistan, Libya, Serbia and Taiwan.

So bush rails about WMDs and knocks out 1 CIA asset. I think one of the other leakers may be "Scooter Libby" dickhead cheneys' right hand man.
Fitzgerald may have a full house

hcap
07-13-2005, 07:54 AM
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340

The Big Lie About Valerie Plame
By Larry Johnson


...Valerie Plame was a classmate of mine from the day she started with the CIA. I entered on duty at the CIA in September 1985. All of my classmates were undercover--in other words, we told our family and friends that we were working for other overt U.S. Government agencies. We had official cover. That means we had a black passport--i.e., a diplomatic passport. If we were caught overseas engaged in espionage activity the black passport was a get out of jail free card.

...A few of my classmates, and Valerie was one of these, became a non-official cover officer. That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport. If caught in that status she would have been executed.

The lies by people like Victoria Toensing, Representative Peter King, and P. J. O'Rourke insist that Valerie was nothing, just a desk jockey. Yet, until Robert Novak betrayed her she was still undercover and the company that was her front was still a secret to the world. When Novak outed Valerie he also compromised her company and every individual overseas who had been in contact with that company and with her.

Suff
07-13-2005, 08:52 AM
BTW, The leak also exposed a longstanding CIA proprietary company,Brewster Jennings & Associates, where Plame worked. The Boston- and Washington-based front company had, since 1994, been tracking weapons of mass destruction,

FWIW. Brewster Jennings was President of Exxon/Mobil Corporation.

Lefty
07-13-2005, 12:45 PM
46sc, you don't get it, do yuh? Clinton embarassed himself and this country. He had sex in the oval office and lied right in the face of the American people. He did it, not a member of his adm. He also committed perjury and denied another accuser her day in court. But you libs love trash like him and hate the guy that's trying to save your ass and head.
In this case Rove hasn't done anything criminal even if he did accidently leaked this identity. She wasn't in the field, she was shuffling papers. She got her husband the job. It was bound to come out.
I know you don't get it, cause you're a criticizer and that's all you're about. You sit in Canada and criticize this adm and this country. Babble away, but watch your head.

Lefty
07-13-2005, 12:51 PM
What is really kinda funny is the left has always hated the cia and cut its funding a long time ago with something called the Church comission etc., etc.
Now they're going ballistic over a cia agant that may or may not have been exposed by a member of this adm. H,mmmm? All of a suddenly the left CARES about the CIA... Hmmm?

Lefty
07-13-2005, 12:53 PM
sec, the woman, virtually exposed herself when she got her hubby the job.
And I say if it's a secret what's the press doing publishing it?

46zilzal
07-13-2005, 01:24 PM
why souldn't anyone dislike the CIA?,,,functioning independent from goverment restraints for a very long time toppling democracies all over the globe?

46zilzal
07-13-2005, 01:26 PM
46sc, you don't get it, do yuh? Clinton embarassed himself and this country. He had sex in the oval office and lied right in the face of the American people.
I know you don't get it, cause you're a criticizer and that's all you're about. You sit in Canada and criticize this adm and this country. Babble away, but watch your head.
What does slick willy have to do with any of this???


This Prez will go down in history as beating out Milhous and Warren Harding as the not only the worst of this century but of all time

Secretariat
07-13-2005, 04:41 PM
Has Rove been confirmed as the guy who leaked the info?

According to Rove's lawyer "YES" he is the leak. Rove's issue is that he did not "knowingly" reveal that Plame was a CIA agent. Boy, that'll hold up. Geez, Clinton could have used that excuse. I didn't "knowingly" think having sex was wrong with Monica. Difference here is agents and associates in the field's lives were put in danger.

So in answer to your question, PA, Rove's own attorney has confirmed that Rove WAS the leak. Luskin, Rove's attorney, also states that Rove did not say "Plame" by name (probably said Wilson's wife), but when asked directly whether Rove knew Plame was a CIA agent, Luskin refused to comment.

The above is the "best" of spin from Rove's own lawyer. Novak is allegedly cooperating with the prosecution trying to avoid jail time.

Secretariat
07-13-2005, 04:47 PM
sec, the woman, virtually exposed herself when she got her hubby the job.
And I say if it's a secret what's the press doing publishing it?

For god's sake Lefty, get a grip.

Robert Novak, the darling of the Right Wing published it. It's information that he "SHOULD NOT" have published. A man with access to the highest access in the the WH (Mr. Rove) shared this "secret" with Novak. It wasn't all the press that published it. They picked up on irresponsbile reporting by Novak who was fed by Rove. You are so partisan you can't see this . Sad.

I can admit Clinton made a stupid choice with Lewinsky. why can you not admit this with Rover?

46zilzal
07-13-2005, 05:20 PM
p. 396 The Politics of Truth by Joseph Wilson: "There was a history of international terrorists attacking exposed officers. The stations chiefs of Athens, and Beruit, after having been exposed by renegade CIA officer Phillip Agee, had been assassinated; and in the U.S. there had been the instance of a terrorist sniper killing employees as there were driving into the CIA headquarters grounds at Langley, Virginia in 1993."

46zilzal
07-13-2005, 05:23 PM
But you libs love trash like him and hate the guy that's trying to save your ass and head.


I don't hate anyone, even you.

Suff
07-13-2005, 05:38 PM
Has Rove been confirmed as the guy who leaked the info?
WASHINGTON — Journalist Matt Cooper (search (http://javascript<b></b>:siteSearch('Matt%20Cooper');)) on Wednesday confirmed to a grand jury that White House aide Karl Rove (search (http://javascript<b></b>:siteSearch('Karl%20Rove');)) was his source for a story about a CIA operative that has investigators deciding whether any laws were broken by the leak of the agent's identity.
Cooper told reporters he would give them details of his grand jury testimony — in a future article for Time magazine.

"I'm not going to scoop myself today," Cooper, a White House correspondent for the news weekly, said outside the U.S. District Court Wednesday afternoon

hcap
07-13-2005, 07:43 PM
So what that 1.8 tonnes (1 tonne = 1.1023 U.S. tons) of low enriched uranium and 500 tonnes of natural uranium were stored, unused, a few miles south of Baghdad, in the old Osirac nuclear facility near Tuwaitha?

So what that the fragmented remains of Iraq's uranium processing centrifuges were buried in a rose garden?

So what that even the Washington Times usually a bush supporter, acknowledged the Niger story was based on forged documents?

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030719-120154-5384r.htm

" The FBI is investigating the origin of forged documents indicating that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger, and one candidate for the forgeries is an Iraqi opposition group, U.S. officials said.

The documents, obtained first by Italy's intelligence service, ended up fooling the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies into believing Baghdad was trying to buy uranium ore from the African nation, U.S. officials say."


So what that Joe Wilson told the truth?
Does't seem to matter to stepfording lemminings.
Or kool aid drinkers.

The question soon will be:
What did bush know and when did bush know rove was the leaker?
Before he said he would fire the guilty party?
Or after?

Lefty
07-13-2005, 07:52 PM
46sc,and what do you have to do with any of this, since you have taken up residence in another country?
I was making a comparison btwn Clinton and G.W. One will go dn in history as a perjurer and adulterer and the other will be known for taking the fight to the terrorists and freeing2 countries in the middle east. You have your values and heros and i have mine.

Sec, making mnts outta molehills is what the dems are all about. "You" get a grip. If yuh wanna side with the party of politics over country and irresponsibility, then guess nothing i could say will ever sway you. Rove will escape these unfounded spurious charges. Then you libs can resume your crying party, meanwhile we're at war and Bush is the guy.
Btw, why won't Judith Miller name her source since the source gave her a waiver? You can bet if it was Rove she'd spit it out. What's she and the N.Y. Times covering up?

schweitz
07-13-2005, 09:20 PM
Btw, why won't Judith Miller name her source since the source gave her a waiver? You can bet if it was Rove she'd spit it out. What's she and the N.Y. Times covering up?

Now we are getting to it---it's going to get real interesting as this plays out. :D

ljb
07-13-2005, 09:23 PM
Lefty,
Bush will go down as the Worst President in history.

Lefty
07-13-2005, 09:45 PM
lbj, that's just your unlearned opinion and your opinion means nothing to me.
We'll see.

Lefty
07-14-2005, 02:29 AM
http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi

Once again my fav gal cuts right through the b.s.

hcap
07-14-2005, 06:53 AM
Lefty Lemming,

Annie makes it up as she goes along. Like your leeDURS.
Why doesn't she deal with the issue of the rutabaga (thks 46), saying repeatedly, what he would do to da leaker, if he only knew who da hell it could be??

Bush at a June 10, 2004, press conference after the G8 summit:

Q: Given recent developments in the CIA leak case, particularly Vice President [Dick] Cheney's discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, a suggestion that it might be difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name?

BUSH: That's up to --

Q: And, and, do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so?

BUSH: Yes. And that's up to the U.S. attorney to find the facts.

Whooa nelly, we know the facts now- rove leaked. Whether it was illegal don't matter. Mr preznit do your duty. Remove turdo from da premises


So do you believe the war president, whose vision and clarity on issues of war and peace, sort of goofed a bit in not figuring it was turd blossom all along?

I mean really, turdo sort of says boo, and bush says woo-woo-woo.
Not only that but it appears that there was more than one leaker, and Plame was leaked to 6 newsfolk. There was something called the "Iraq Group". A little-known White House internal task force established in August 2002 to create a strategy to publicize the threat posed by Saddam Hussein. Now before you claim I am making it up as Annie is apt to do....

Also sought in the wide-ranging document requests contained in three grand jury subpoenas to the Executive Office of President George W. Bush are records created in July by the White House Iraq Group

It appears Fitzgerald is interested in this PR arm of the WH as a group that could contain other leakers. Btw, when some of those leaking calls to the 6 newsfolk were made, air force one could have been the source. Phone records from AF1 were also subpoened. This is not a light matter. Betcha rove and at least one other will develop "the need to spend more time at home".

Soooo, could it be that this war presidinty of guts, glory and vision, was in the dark about a mini-dirty tricks PR operation in his white house??

Now as elkieeabong mentioned, even if rove is booted, he will continue to say boo to georgie off camera.

But politically, da shit will hit da fan.

hcap
07-14-2005, 07:02 AM
Karl Rove has practice...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/071305dntexoldrove.11c053e.html

'Mark of Rove': Attack, leave no trail
His Texas opponents saw pattern in political operatives' campaigns

By WAYNE SLATER / The Dallas Morning News

" AUSTIN – As Texas' top political operative, Karl Rove honed an ability to damage an opponent without clear evidence that he was responsible. The pattern exasperated Democrats but always served Mr. Rove well – until, perhaps, the case of Valerie Plame. "

JustRalph
07-14-2005, 09:39 AM
I would say that Ann Coulter has it just about right. Dress up a pig and call it a debutante all you want, HCAP. You can throw all the Revlon and fancy clothes you want on it..........you are still presenting a pig........... your pig, Wilson, started up his own little adventure and it turned into a national story........but he and his story are still swine.

Get me some info from his written report, or produce a document from somebody who has any authority at all, stating Wilson was on a mission on behalf of the U.S. Government, and I might reconsider...........but so far all I see is a half ass bored guy who gets a kitchen pass from his wife to play secret agent assistant number one...........and that is all...........

JustMissed
07-14-2005, 10:57 AM
1. If Rove was the leaker, how come that lady reporter is sitting in jail right now. Rove released everyone from confidentiality agreement so why is she in jail? Perhaps there is another leaker?

2. If Plame's name had already been leaked by someone else, how the heck could you leak something that has already been leaked.

Note: I'm not defending Rove as I believe the whole bunch are lying crooks. Just seems that Dems have so little to chew on these days they are over cooking this deal and will ending up with crap on their faces, as usual.

JM

lsbets
07-14-2005, 11:16 AM
When you look into this thing, why is no one critical of Wilson? His decision to very publicly lie about what he found in Niger and how he was hired started this whole mess. Isn't he inherantly complicit in anything that happenned afterwards, especially if instead of an intentional leak, it really was just a "hey, we didn't send this guy, his wife did." Don't forget, shortly after this story broke, Andrea Mitchell reported shortly after the story broke that it was "widely known" that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. How can you leak something that is widely known?

Lets find out the truth. Lets see if it was widely known that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. In addition to saying he spoke to Rove, Cooper also said he was told by several fellow reporters that she worked for the CIA. So, lets get to the truth - was this a leak to out an agent, or was it only a reminder of what a lot of people already knew? Something tells me that the dark prince of politics as some libs like to call him wouldn't have done something so sstupid as to trust the press if he committed a criminal act, so my hunch is this will all come to nothing.

46zilzal
07-14-2005, 11:43 AM
When you look into this thing, why is no one critical of Wilson? His decision to very publicly lie about what he found in Niger and how he was hired started this whole mess. .
amazing. It is one thing to slant and another to be duped ...welcome to the duped group.

lsbets
07-14-2005, 12:21 PM
"According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998."

Hmm - sounds a little different than the story he told in public.

Lefty
07-14-2005, 12:39 PM
hacap, 46sc, you guys just plain hate bush and you are the lemmings and the duped ones. There was no crime committed and now you want the pres. to fire a man on leftwing suspicion and "ambush" journalism. You love to talk about facts but have none. You say Ann makes it up. Pray tell, hcap, what did she make up? Wilson lied. He's a dem trying to besmirch this Pres and his adm. You guys are so obsessed with this man you will grab at any straws to besmirch him. Why don't you realize we're in a war for our freedoms and lives, so why don't you plead with your leaders to let go of the politics of destruction and join in fightiung this war. If you libs keep tearing down, it makes it much harder to win. Get off the side of the terrorists and join us. It's important!

46zilzal
07-14-2005, 01:17 PM
"According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998."

Hmm - sounds a little different than the story he told in public.
this is creditable or just handy???

46zilzal
07-14-2005, 01:41 PM
Say Willy is the prez and same thing happened in his staff. SAME RESULT would be required

schweitz
07-14-2005, 02:49 PM
www.gop.com/news/read.aspx?ID=5630

46zilzal
07-14-2005, 05:42 PM
www.gop.com/news/read.aspx?ID=5630
isn't that akin to asking if the hen house is safe by contacting the wolf protective society?

46zilzal
07-14-2005, 05:46 PM
Several top GOP officials — including some White House advisers — said the fight was becoming a distraction to Bush's agenda. The GOP officials, speaking on condition of anonymity to avoid looking disloyal, said the president may face a credibility problem because his spokesman said in September that anybody involved in the leak would be fired.

These Republicans, all admirers of Rove, said they were surprised and disappointed when Bush stopped short of publicly backing his longtime aide.

A survey of Republicans outside Washington revealed similar concerns, though few officials were willing to go on record.

"I think he should resign," said Jim Holt, a GOP state senator from Arkansas who is running for lieutenant governor. He joked, "I hope Karl Rove doesn't come gunning for me."

ljb
07-14-2005, 06:19 PM
I HATE that fat-faced drooling Rove, but for many reasons, but NOT, as of now,
treason. (Yes, I would call "outing" a CIA operative as Treason.) --- so far,
there seems No Evidence that he named HER, by Name.
So I guess that means you agree with Jon Stewart of the Daily Show, He thinks that just because Rove said it was Wilson's wife does not mean he named her by name. He could have been talking about Mrs. Wilson of Dennis the Menace fame. :D :D :D

ljb
07-14-2005, 06:21 PM
hacap, 46sc, you guys just plain hate bush and you are the lemmings and the duped ones. There was no crime committed and now you want the pres. to fire a man on leftwing suspicion and "ambush" journalism. You love to talk about facts but have none. You say Ann makes it up. Pray tell, hcap, what did she make up? Wilson lied. He's a dem trying to besmirch this Pres and his adm. You guys are so obsessed with this man you will grab at any straws to besmirch him. Why don't you realize we're in a war for our freedoms and lives, so why don't you plead with your leaders to let go of the politics of destruction and join in fightiung this war. If you libs keep tearing down, it makes it much harder to win. Get off the side of the terrorists and join us. It's important!
Lefty, So in a nutshell outing a cia operative is not a crime. Do I understand you correctly ?

46zilzal
07-14-2005, 06:39 PM
After dropping out of college and then becoming head of the national College Republicans at age 22, Rove is said to have sworn by the mantra "Don't get caught." Biographers say his bloodlust was apparent early on — as Watergate was unfolding, The Washington Post reported that Rove trained College Republicans in dirty-tricks campaigning for his hero, Richard Nixon.

Rove's legend has since reached mythic proportions. Democratic foes see him as the lone reason for Bush's success — the guy who always wins because he is able to engage in the dirtiest politics without leaving a fingerprint that could be traced back to his candidate.

hcap
07-14-2005, 06:45 PM
lsbets you are wrong.
"According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998."

Hmm - sounds a little different than the story he told in public.
Lemming lefty-"Pray tell, hcap, what did she make up? Wilson lied."

An perfect example of making it up as you go along. And how it gets mindlesslessly regurgitated by the bamboozlers on the right. The lemming drop kids This Iraq buying uranium story originated in a Wash Post article by Susan Schmitdt. That is, her interpretation of the Senate intel report.

The Post article contained an acknowledged error (by the Post):

In trying to build a case that Wilson's Niger trip had actually bolstered the administration's claims, Susan Schmidt wrote that Wilson had told the CIA that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from Niger in 1998. In fact, it was Iran that Wilson said had tried to make the purchase, as the Senate report states. The Post ran a correction.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45430-2004Jul12.html

"A July 10 story on a new Senate report on intelligence failures said that former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV told his contacts at the CIA that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from the African nation of Niger in 1998. In fact, it was Iran that was interested in making that purchase, but no contract was signed, according to the report."

No sale of uranium ever took place, Wilson reported, and that conclusion is not in dispute.

BTW, Senate intel report pg. 44 refers to Iran not Iraq

Iran, Iraq, so what's the difference?

Just like when the mighty war preznit was qustioned right after WMDs fizzled out, claiming Saddams' dreams of weapons programs the new justification du jour

He mumbled....

Stockpiles, programs, hey what's the dif??

RXB
07-14-2005, 07:06 PM
Liberal kicks puppy; conservatives rage against the action; liberals rationalize/deflect.

Conservative kicks puppy; liberals rage against the action; conservatives rationalize/deflect.

Tough way to get things done properly and decently.

hcap
07-14-2005, 07:34 PM
Seven months after the appointment of the special counsel Fitzgerald, in July 2004, the repub-dominated senate select committee on intel issued its report on the so-called flawed intelligence leading to the Iraq invasion.

BTW, The repubs deep-sixed a promised second report on maybe political pressure on the intelligence process. Ya know like dickhead cheney dropping by and schmoozing at the CIA. Did he bring the donuts?

A 3-page addendum added: "The plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA employee."

This was not a bipartisan addendum. In fact a minority reprt was added by the dems dissagreeing.

And guess what?, the CIA soon issued a statement, as reported by New York Newsday and CNN, that the Republican senators' conclusion about Plame's role was "wholly inaccurate"

lsbets
07-14-2005, 07:36 PM
Hcap - if you guys try to make Wilson's veracity the cenerpiece of any argument, it is doomed to failure. He has proven to be, well, a liar on the most basic of issues regarding his trip:

"As has been widely reported, Wilson conducted a half-baked investigation into the uanium report. But here is the most astonishing fact uncovered by the Senate Intelligence Committee: in his book and in countless interviews and op-ed pieces over the past year, Wilson has been lying about the contents of his own report to the CIA!:

The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."
"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger.

Wilson's reports to the CIA added to the evidence that Iraq may have tried to buy uranium in Niger, although officials at the State Department remained highly skeptical, the report said.

Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq -- which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq."

According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.


So: what Wilson actually told the CIA, contrary to his own oft-repeated claims, is that he was told by the former mining minister of Niger that in 1998, Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from that country, and that Iraq's overture was renewed the following year. What Wilson reported to the CIA was exactly the same as what President Bush said in his 2003 State of the Union address: there was evidence that Iraq had tried to buy uranium in Africa."

So, Wilson said the documents were forged, but he never saw the documents, and the CIA didn't see the documents until 8 months after his report. Man, I love watching you guys jump up and down over every new issue and then have it amount to nothing. Hey, whatever happenned to that Downing Street Memo you used to tout? I told you that thing would disappear in a hurry once it was actually looked at. You're getting to be the John Piesen of Off Topic - you keep touting, but you never seem to win.

JustMissed
07-14-2005, 08:02 PM
You boys need to go down to the corner drug store and see if they will sell you some common sense pills.

I asked two questions in an earlier post that no one cared to answer so I will ask a 3rd question.

3. Does it make any sense at all that the White House would out Wilson's wife in retaliation for his article. How would outing her purnish Wilson at all? I don't get it. She's a damned civil servant and probably could not get fired even if she was giving away secrets.

Even if she was a 'secret agent' ,which I doubt, the downside of outing her is far worse for the WH than any harm to Plame or Wilson.

I suspect when all the dust settles, Rove's account of the incident will be true.

I would not trust Rove as far as I could throw him but I am pretty sure he is too damn smart to out a spy for the purpose of retaliation. If the WH wanted her outed, there are plenty of way to have done it without getting Rove involved.

JM

hcap
07-14-2005, 08:07 PM
Joe Wilsons' veracity eh?

1- ”Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa,” made its way into Bush's State of the Union Address in January 2003, less than two months before the invasion.

2-We invade

3-No Wmds immediately apparent

4-Wilson goes public saying he told them so.

5-Still no WMDs.

6-No connections to Osama

6a- At least four top administration officials, TEnet, Rice, Hadley publically backpeddle and admit those 16 little words were a big oops. Best case a white lie. Worst case a major causi belli for war NOT TRUE

7-Jul. 14, 2003, Washington Post columnist Robert Novak publishes column in which he reports that Wilson travels to Niger at the suggestion of his wife, whom Novak not only identified by name, but also described as ”an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction.” He cited ”two senior administration officials” as his sources.

8-other Washington reporters came forward shortly afterward saying that they, too, had been called by senior officials regarding Plame's identity

9-Still no WMDs or Al Quida connections apparent.

10-Both scotty boy mclellan and the war preznit play dumb and outright lie about rove's involvement.

11-Rove is identified as one of the leakers.

12- Joe Wilson was right and all the wanabee patriots were wrong.



You yourself have ignored my previous post and have succesfully regurgitated a slew of misrepresentations. If the rest of your talking points are as accurate as the false claim "According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998", well so much for the truth

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Jul12.html

"A July 10 story on a new Senate report on intelligence failures said that former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV told his contacts at the CIA that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from the African nation of Niger in 1998. In fact, it was Iran that was interested in making that purchase, but no contract was signed, according to the report."

Wilson never said Iraq he said IRAN. pg 44 intel report

hcap
07-14-2005, 08:11 PM
JustMissed You boys need to go down to the corner drug store and see if they will sell you some common sense pills. I asked two questions in an earlier post that no one cared to answer so I will ask a 3rd question.

3. Does it make any sense at all that the White House would out Wilson's wife in retaliation for his article. How would outing her purnish Wilson at all? I don't get it. She's a damned civil servant and probably could not get fired even if she was giving away secrets.

Even if she was a 'secret agent' ,which I doubt, the downside of outing her is far worse for the WH than any harm to Plame or Wilson.

To scare and intimidate other whistle blowers. As the war adventure is coming under more and more scrutiny, naysayers must be deflected or the whole sad story may come into focus.

hcap
07-14-2005, 08:20 PM
lsbetsMan, I love watching you guys jump up and down over every new issue and then have it amount to nothing. Hey, whatever happenned to that Downing Street Memo you used to tout? I told you that thing would disappear in a hurry once it was actually looked at. You're getting to be the John Piesen of Off Topic - you keep touting, but you never seem to win.Well as I have mentioned it took almost 2 years after tricky dick was re-elected to boot his ass out.

" The NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll showed the percentage of Americans who believe Bush is "honest and straightforward" fell to 41 percent from 50 percent in January, while those who say they doubt his veracity climbed to 45 percent from 36 percent."

That's not to mention the poll a few weeks ago spurred by the DSMs that almost 43% would impeach bush if he lied about the war.

6 months into the lame ducks 2nd term. Things beginning to siimer. Boil by fall. IMHO

Lefty
07-14-2005, 08:29 PM
hcap, 46sc, you guys got Rove convicted before there's any proof he did anything. If he did mention the woman's name IT IS NOT A CRIME. Read up on the law. What's the N.Y. Times hiding?
And what's driving these stupid polls? The completely biased leftwing mass media. So they mean nothing. You libs are politically motivated, mean spirited, and do not have the best interests of these country at heart.

lsbets
07-14-2005, 08:32 PM
And just who are the wannabe patriots there Hcap? See, one of the problems you guys have is many people see your condescension and invective directed not just at Bush, but at anyone who disagrees with you. So, some people would read what you wrote and think "Hmmm, I think WIlson's a liar, so Hcap is saying I'm a wannabe patriot."

Like I said, thanks for the laughs. I give you credit for stubborness, but its getting you nowhere. JM is dead right in his assesment, IMO, but you are so blinded by your Bush hatred you can't objectivly look at anything. Looking down you list of "facts" is laughable. You parrot the same lies over and over again, and don't care what the truth is. I can completely understand Dave's point about some of you guys in the other thread.

hcap
07-14-2005, 08:36 PM
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13jul20041400/www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/s108-301/sec2.pdf

"The Senate Intelligence Commitee's account, presented in its 2004 review of prewar weapons intelligence on Iraq, matches Wilson's. "Officials from the CIA's DO Counterproliferation Division told committee staff that in response to questions from the Vice President's Office and the Departments of State and Defense on the alleged Niger-uranium deal, CPD officials discussed ways to obtain additional information. ... CPD decided to contact a former ambassador to Gabon [Wilson] who had a posting early in his career in Niger," the report stated.

Another of your misrepresentations shot down

JustMissed
07-14-2005, 08:41 PM
I would not be surprised if Rove was not behind(read the Mastermind) of Rathergate.

He is from Texas and has lots of connections there as well as that gal that was Bush's right hand.

They probably knew that Rather(from Texas) and his daughter(from Texas) was snopping around looking for Bush/Texas Air Guard stuff.

Rove may have had that false letter delivered to that wacko ex-guardsman in Texas knowing that it would end up in Rather's hands.

Probably the best political trick ever pulled and I would be laughing at its brillance if our country was not in such a goddamn mess.

Sometimes when I am filling up my car at the gas station I start thinking about how things might have been had Clinton not got caught screwing Lewinski.

The moral voters moved over to Bush and away from the adultrey. Gore did not ask Clinton to campaign for him and this caused Gore to lose the election by a razor thin margin.

Had Clinton kept his pecker in his pants he would probably go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents, hundreds of fine American soldiers would be alive as well as thousands of Iraqis and others. Cheney and the robber barrons would not be picking our pockets daily and our future would be alot brighter.

I don't know for sure but I would have to say that Monica was the most expensive piece of ass in history.

Makes Cleo pale in comparison.

JM

Lefty
07-14-2005, 09:08 PM
jm, besides Monica there was the perjury to deny Paula her day in court. And then there was Flowers who he was screwing while he was govenor. And then there was that Dem woman he grioped. But push all that aside. What did he do that was great? He gave nukes to N. Korea. He raised taxes on everybody ibncluding S.S. receipients. Then there was Wako where he shoved the enitre mess into Reno's lap.
He took credit for everything that the Repub 94 congrress did. He was great at taking credit and shirking responsibility.
I think about where we might be if Gore had been elected, and it scares the hell outta me.

hcap
07-14-2005, 09:10 PM
There is the question of character.

Rove is a sleezebag but brilliant political operator.
Integrity is on the light side to say the least.

Wilson...
In 1990, while sheltering more than a hundred Americans at the U.S. Embassy and diplomatic residences, he briefed reporters while wearing a hangman's noose instead of a necktie -- a symbol of defiance after Hussein threatened to execute anyone who didn't turn over foreigners.

The message, Wilson said: "If you want to execute me, I'll bring my own [expletive] rope."

This toughness impressed President George H.W. Bush, who called Wilson a "truly inspiring" diplomat who exhibited "courageous leadership" by facing down Hussein and helping to gain freedom for the Americans before the 1991 war began.

this is not a guy who reacts meekly when he's threatened, and one of the reasons this scandal is not going away.

Lefty
07-14-2005, 09:17 PM
jm, oh, I forgot, he allowed his biggest contributor to sell a satellite launching system to China. Now that's brilliant, eh? And he pardoned this nations biggest tax evader and some terrorists. A trulty great man, NOT!

Suff
07-14-2005, 09:18 PM
. A trulty great man, NOT!

he'd kick your ass..........:faint:

Lefty
07-14-2005, 09:21 PM
hcap, Wilson is a LIAR! He said his wife did not get him the job and she did. He said Cheney sent him and that's another lie! You guys got Kennedy and Gore and Harry Reid and Durbin and Dean maligning the Pres. every day and you say Rove is a sleazebag? Look to your own, my man.
What's the N.Y. Times hiding? No lib wants to take a shot at that one...

Lefty
07-14-2005, 09:29 PM
suff, you gotta be kidding! I am a former bartender/bouncer and he wouldn't have a shot! This is gotta be your stupidest post ever!

Lefty
07-14-2005, 09:43 PM
Hey, here's something else "wonderful" the Clintons did: Travelgate. They fired the white house travel people. Hey, that was their right, but they were not content to just fire them; they tried to ruin their lives. They put poor Billy Dale on trial and it took the jury just and hour or less to say not guilty. But it ruined the man financially.
Yeah, the Clintons' are just great people, uh huh...

hcap
07-14-2005, 09:48 PM
Lefty hcap, Wilson is a LIAR! He said his wife did not get him the job and she did. He said Cheney sent him and that's another lie! Lefty your losing it. I have already shown this is bull. Take some meds and turn on Hannity, or if you can stay awake read some more debunking this fib about getting him "da job".....

WSJ October 17, 2003:

An internal government memo addresses some of the mysteries at the center of the White House leak investigation and could help investigators in the search for who disclosed the identity of a Central Intelligence Agency operative, according to two people familiar with the memo.

The memo, prepared by U.S. intelligence personnel, details a meeting in early 2002 where CIA officer Valerie Plame and other intelligence officials gathered to brainstorm about how to verify reports that Iraq had sought uranium yellowcake from Niger.

WaPo December 26th 2003:

Sources said the CIA is angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets suggesting Plame had a role in arranging her husband's trip to Africa for the CIA. The document, written by a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), describes a meeting at the CIA where the Niger trip by Wilson was discussed, said a senior administration official who has seen it.

Newsday July 22, 2003:

A senior intelligence official confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked "alongside" the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.

But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. "They [the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story] were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising," he said. "There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking
this up, for some reason," he said. "I can't figure out what it could be."


Now read this interview with Wilson, particularly the part I highlighted....

Raw Story: Do we know the extent of the damage outside of your wife and her projects? Do we know the number of casualties including other assets, abroad or other domestic assets?

Wilson: I think that is unverifiable. I don't have any information on that and I don't know nor would I know if the CIA has done an after action review. Just as general proposition, you have to assume that every project or program she was ever involved in has been rolled up. Whether there are casualties is something I don't know.

The other thing you can assume that even if 150 people read the Novak article when it appeared, 148 of them would have been the heads of intelligence sections at embassies here in Washington and by noon that day they would have faxing her name or telexing her name back to their home offices and running checks on her: whether she had ever been in the country, who she may have been in contact with, etc.


Raw Story: I know that after this occurred you had gotten a kind letter from George H. W. Bush expressing his concern and dismay.

Wilson: I got a long hand-written note.

Raw Story: What were his sentiments?

Wilson: He expressed his outrage at what had happened and his understanding of the seriousness of it.

hcap
07-14-2005, 09:56 PM
Soon to join tricky dicky in peachy land in da sky


http://images.ucomics.com/comics/po/2005/po050713.gif

lsbets
07-14-2005, 09:59 PM
Hcap, thanks for the entertainment - you're fun to laugh at.

Lefty
07-14-2005, 10:00 PM
hcap, you can read all theinterviews with Wilson ya want. He's a liar. Cheney did not send him. There is a memo to the effect that she did recommend him. Stop this picayune nonsense and salute the Pres for his stance on the war on terror. Or would ya just rather play politics and the safety of this country be damned?

Lefty
07-14-2005, 10:11 PM
hcap, if you think Bush is going to be impeaced then you're the one that's losing it. Even if he would be, then you've got Cheney. LOL!

Secretariat
07-14-2005, 10:24 PM
"TERENCE SMITH: Larry Johnson, explain what the dangers are that are inherent in identifying an undercover operator. What is the worry here?

LARRY JOHNSON: Let's be very clear about what happened. This is not an alleged abuse. This is a confirmed abuse. I worked with this woman. She started training with me. She has been undercover for three decades, she is not as Bob Novak suggested a CIA analyst. But given that, I was a CIA analyst for four years. I was undercover. I could not divulge to my family outside of my wife that I worked for the Central Intelligence Agency until I left the agency on Sept. 30, 1989. At that point I could admit it.
So the fact that she's been undercover for three decades and that has been divulged is outrageous because she was put undercover for certain reasons. One, she works in an area where people she meets with overseas could be compromised. When you start tracing back who she met with, even people who innocently met with her, who are not involved in CIA operations, could be compromised. For these journalists to argue that this is no big deal and if I hear another Republican operative suggesting that well, this was just an analyst fine, let them go undercover. Let's put them overseas and let's out them and then see how they like it. They won't be able to stand the heat.

TERENCE SMITH: Tom Rosenstiel, the notion that Bob Novak put forward: an analyst, not a spy. I talked to the CIA -- they urged me not to do it but didn't suggest it would endanger anyone. What do you think of that reason?
TOM ROSENSTIEL: Well, I think it's weak. Bob Novak has done a really dangerous and terrible thing. If you are going to get involved in something like this where you're bumping up against breaking the law, as a journalist you have a civil disobedience test you have to meet. What's the public good of this story? What's the -- balanced against what's the danger to the people involved publishing the story. The third part of the test is, is it necessary in telling the story to do this or is there another way to do it, do you need to divulge this person's name, in other words, to convey the information you think is of the public interest.
This doesn't meet any one of those three tests. It's not of overriding public interest. Novak may be really just an instrument of Republican revenge here. Whatever the public good is of the story is far overwhelmed by the danger to this woman and her network of operatives. And it's gratuitous. You could have told the story without her name.

TERENCE SMITH: We should point out for the record that we invited Bob Novak to join this discussion. He told me this afternoon that he had said all he had to say on this. Your reaction, Larry?

LARRY JOHNSON: I say this as a registered Republican. I'm on record giving contributions to the George Bush campaign. This is not about partisan politics. This is about a betrayal, a political smear of an individual with no relevance to the story. Publishing her name in that story added nothing to it. His entire intent was correctly as Ambassador Wilson noted: to intimidate, to suggest that there was some impropriety that somehow his wife was in a decision making position to influence his ability to go over and savage a stupid policy, an erroneous policy and frankly, what was a false policy of suggesting that there were nuclear material in Iraq that required this war. This was about a political attack. To pretend that it's something else and to get into this parsing of words, I tell you, it sickens me to be a Republican to see this. "

Larry Johnson is a former CIA analyst and counterterrorism official at the State Department.

Secretariat
07-14-2005, 10:25 PM
"Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors."
-- George Herbert Walker Bush, 1999

Rove was fired from the 1992 Bush Sr. campaign for trashing Robert Mosbacher, Jr., who was the chief fundraiser for the campaign and an avowed Bush loyalist. Rove accomplished this trashing of Mosbacher by planting a negative story with columnist Bob Novak. The campaign figured out that Karl had done the dirty deed, and he was given his walking papers.

The current spin from administration defenders within and without the mainstream media is that Valerie Plame was only an analyst, and not an operative. This, somehow, is supposed to lessen the blow of an administration willing to attack the families of its critics. Yet the characterization of Plame as an analyst is factually incorrect. For one, Robert Novak himself indicated that she was an operative in the original report that birthed this scandal. "Wilson never worked for the CIA," wrote Novak, "but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."

Ray McGovern, who was for 27-years a senior analyst for the CIA, further confirms the status of Plame within the CIA. "I know Joseph Wilson well enough to know," said McGovern in a telephone conversation we had today, "that his wife was in fact a deep cover operative running a network of informants on what is supposedly this administration's first-priority issue: Weapons of mass destruction."

McGovern further elaborated on the damage done when such an agent has their cover blown. "This causes a great deal of damage," said McGovern. "These kinds of networks take ten years to develop. The reason why they operate under deep cover is that the only people who have access to the kind of data we need cannot be associated in any way with the American intelligence community. Our operatives live a lie to maintain these networks, and do so out of patriotism. When they get blown, the operatives themselves are in physical danger. The people they recruit are also in physical danger, because foreign intelligence services can make the connections and find them. Operatives like Valerie Plame are real patriots."

ElKabong
07-14-2005, 11:01 PM
lsbets to hcap-

You're getting to be the John Piesen of Off Topic - you keep touting, but you never seem to win.


Classic!

ElKabong
07-14-2005, 11:27 PM
I would not be surprised if Rove was not behind(read the Mastermind) of Rathergate.

He is from Texas and has lots of connections there as well as that gal that was Bush's right hand.

They probably knew that Rather(from Texas) and his daughter(from Texas) was snopping around looking for Bush/Texas Air Guard stuff.

Rove may have had that false letter delivered to that wacko ex-guardsman in Texas knowing that it would end up in Rather's hands.


JM


Not even remotely possible, JM. Don't forget Bill Burkett (a fervent Dem near Abilene with a long history of mental illness) was the nutcase behind the distributing of the memos and whatnot. The 60Minutes interview w/ Burkett would remove any thought that Rove pulled a string in that BS nonsense.

PaceAdvantage
07-15-2005, 02:11 AM
Soon to join tricky dicky in peachy land in da sky

As Bush once said himself, BRING IT ON! BTW, when do the hearings start?

schweitz
07-15-2005, 03:12 AM
Also---Novak: "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day Novak blew her identy."

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=ff-apo-1152&idg=/ff/story/0001/20050715/00446558011.htm&sc=1152


Scroll down--look under HEADLINES header on left side of page---under POLITICS, click on "Source: Rove got CIA agent ID from media" for story

schweitz
07-15-2005, 03:14 AM
Sorry---the above should say--WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day Novak blew her identity."

hcap
07-15-2005, 07:05 AM
Elkie,

May be that the DSmemos and impeachment are not fully on the radar-yet.
Your leeDUR is plumeting in the polls. Used to be you guys were in the majority,
now you represent a withering minority who favor the war, the prez, the countrys' direction. Sort of like the "coalition of the willing".

Instead of John Piesen of the off topics, look at me, and for that matter sec,46, and ljb as the guys who have been right all along, originally betting a long drawn out race not quite past the last furlong. You bet a false favorite. We saw the weakness in that bet. Went with a horse known as the truth.

Truth eventually wins, time frame is in question. Looks like the favorites jock, however, dude named karl, is about to fall off his ride. :jump: :jump:

lsbets
07-15-2005, 08:52 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8577190/

"Rove testified that Novak told him he had learned and planned to report in a weekend column that Wilson’s wife, Plame, had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims of alleged nuclear material sales to Iraq."

Let's see - Andrea Mitchell reported it was well known in some circles that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, and if Rove got the information from Novak, not the other way around, than the question is, where did Novak get his information? Also, where did the NY Times reporter get her information? It seems to be highly improbable that she is sitting in jail protecting Rove.

So - it appears that on Tuesday Novak told Rove about the story he had running over the weekend. On Friday Rove talked to Cooper, apprantly knowing that the story was about to run. Rove has not been implicated as Novak's or the NY Times reporter's source.

Sorry Hcap, you guys got happy too early again, it appears that you have nothing. Go find your next scandal, this one will die within two weeks.

JustRalph
07-15-2005, 09:34 AM
isn't that akin to asking if the hen house is safe by contacting the wolf protective society?

does the source make any difference as long as the quotes are accurate? You can find the same quotes in other places, and when viewed in the appropriate light and context, they seem to bolster the case for Wolves

Suff
07-15-2005, 10:05 AM
None of the events surrounding this excuse Rove's motivation or behavior.

Rove told the grand jury that three days later, he had a phone conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and - in an effort to discredit some of Wilson's allegations - informally told Cooper that he believed Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, though he never used her name, the source said.

That quote and motive are directly from the same article Schwietz refers to.

These hack's like Wilson and Plame I care very little about. Rove I care less about.

The people I care about are the members of this board. The members who were willing to overlook many flaws with Bush because they viewed him as a beacon of integrity. Someone who would restore the Presidency and the Country to a higher standard. An administration that would put America First in the world.

Even if we were to just focus on motive , Rove's actions are telling and chilling. He should at least have his security clearence lowered during the investigation. A case could be made that he should be immediattely arrested.

The men of principle are losing credibility by the minute. They have no standard except the all mighty dollar. They have no standard except getting and retaining power.




The fact that the "principled" crowd is so eager and willing to excuse his conduct shows they are not remotely close to what they said they are. They're opportunists....not patriots. Not America First guys. Sadly, they are not.

lsbets
07-15-2005, 10:48 AM
Suff - I haven't excused anyone's conduct - I said right away it's up to the grand jury. But, I am enjoying watching the radicals on this board blow up yet again as they get their hopes up and nothing comes of it. I think it would be totally appropriate to temporailly suspend Rove's security clearnace - that's what you do when you have questions about it. I've seen people's clearnaces suspended for less. But, I gotta tell you, its fun watching some of the guys on this board get all in a tizzy to once again have their hopes and dreams come to naught.

ljb
07-15-2005, 12:25 PM
lsbets,
Rove may well scam his way out of this, he has been succesful so far. However I get my personal glee from just pointing out his crooked ways and watching the rightys lower their standards again as they try to spin out of it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lefty
07-15-2005, 12:41 PM
Rove's conduct was honorable. The reporter contacted him about welfare reform and then in thir usual "abush journalism" this guy said something about
Wilsonn being sent by Cheney. Rove said something to the effect he might not wanta go with that story and be embarassed. And then something came up about Wilson's wife might be a member of the CIA. The reporter led the way in this.That's what Rove gets for trying to help a journalist' AMBUSHED!
There is nothing to come of this. Even if Rove let the woman's name slip, No crime was committed. No harm, no foul, get it? Dems off on another witch hunt as usual.

Lefty
07-15-2005, 01:28 PM
Joe Wilson's a Fraud. Here's a link for ya...
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/7/15/105743.shtml

ljb
07-15-2005, 02:45 PM
Rove outed a cia agent. Face the fact Lefty and quit your squirming and a spinning. Next thing your going to be asking what the definition of is is. :lol: :lol: :lol:

lsbets
07-15-2005, 02:49 PM
ljb,

take away your rhetoric - where did Rove out a CIA agent? Certainly not with Cooper, the timeline says that's impossible - she was already outed, so, please show us where you have seen evidence that Rove outed an agent. It appears that Rove got his information from Novak, and Novak's was the first column to discuss Plame. Your conclusion makes no sense.

ljb
07-15-2005, 02:54 PM
lsbets,
Rove outed to cooper and probably miller he just confirmed it to that traitor Novak.

lsbets
07-15-2005, 03:05 PM
ljb,

I am asking you a serious question. Where are you coming up with that? Supposedly Novak told Rove who Wilson's wife was. If Novak told Rove, how could Rove tell Novak? And if Novak's story was already out on the wire to be published the next day, how does saying "apparantly his wife works for the CIA" constitute outing her when the story outing her is already on its way to publication? And if Rove was the one who told Miller, why is she sitting in jail instead of saying it was him? That makes no sense at all.

I know you depserately want it to be true that Rove outed a CIA agent for political revenge against an opponent of the Iraq war, but the more facts that come out, the less likely that appears to be what has happenned. Like I said, two weeks this thing goes away.

kenwoodallpromos
07-15-2005, 04:19 PM
Admin told news; news told admin; admin told news again! No wonder there is a intell problem in Wash DC!LOL reporter's in jail!

lsbets
07-15-2005, 05:27 PM
This thing keeps getting funnier:

"A former CIA covert agent who supervised Mrs. Plame early in her career yesterday took issue with her identification as an "undercover agent," saying that she worked for more than five years at the agency's headquarters in Langley and that most of her neighbors and friends knew that she was a CIA employee.
"She made no bones about the fact that she was an agency employee and her husband was a diplomat," Fred Rustmann, a covert agent from 1966 to 1990, told The Washington Times.
"Her neighbors knew this, her friends knew this, his friends knew this. A lot of blame could be put on to central cover staff and the agency because they weren't minding the store here. ... The agency never changed her cover status."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050715-121257-9887r.htm

How can you out someone who tells everyone who they are? It appears that an awful lot of people knew she worked for the CIA long before the Novak column ran.

Okay guys, move on to your next "scandal." :lol: :lol:

betchatoo
07-15-2005, 05:49 PM
If this whole thing is no big deal, if everyone knew she was CIA, then why is that reporter in jail? For refusing to release her source in a non-criminal case? Makes no sense.

skate
07-15-2005, 06:06 PM
next;


like somebody stated early, you keep telling these people and they dont ever catch on, so... its hard for me to stay up on all this "wonk wilson" bus.

how the heck could this deal about "wilson" even be taken seriously.

from the get- go, THIS GUY (ex ambassador) knows very little about the yellow cake to begin with and he claims the vice pres sent him down to nigeria .
turns out not to be true. false story from wilson already.

but to me, nobody sends a known person to investigate such a case. just imagine this known person (wilson) going to nigeria and asking that gov. if they were dealing illegal products to iraq.
dah!

so cut it man

Secretariat
07-15-2005, 07:00 PM
ljb,

Supposedly Novak told Rove who Wilson's wife was. If Novak told Rove, how could Rove tell Novak? ....I know you depserately want it to be true that Rove outed a CIA agent for political revenge against an opponent of the Iraq war, but the more facts that come out, the less likely that appears to be what has happenned. Like I said, two weeks this thing goes away.

Facts? Rove's testimony...lol..please. The man has already been fired by Bush I for leaks. I imagine Fitzgerald will be getting perjury chrages ready next.

Rove (by his own testimony) "confirmed" Plame's identity to Novak prior to publication. Novak, on the other hand, has publicly said nothing.

Meanwhile, the right tries to make this about Plame's husband. THe issue being investigated by the Grand Jury is not about Joe Wilson, it's about who leaked a CIA agent to the press. We know (a) Novak printed the initial story (b) we know Rove confirmed Novak's story PRIOR to it being published by Rove's own testimony and by his attoreny's comments (c) we know Plame's identity was revealed (d) we are told by Rove that Novak told him (he simply confirmed) (e) we have been told previously by Novak that "two" senior adminstration officials told Novak the story (f) we know Judith Miller has gone to jail to protect her source .

So, since we are not privy to all testimony with the Grand jury, we know at least two senior admin officials are in a lot of trouble, and Novak is in a lot of trouble, and Rove is in a lot of trouble. I'll leave it to Fitzgerald to publish his findings, but i would be very surprised if Mr. Rove walks clean on this one.

.................................................. ...........................

"Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors."
-- George Herbert Walker Bush, 1999

Rove was fired from the 1992 Bush Sr. campaign for trashing Robert Mosbacher, Jr., who was the chief fundraiser for the campaign and an avowed Bush loyalist. Rove accomplished this trashing of Mosbacher by planting a negative story with columnist Bob Novak. The campaign figured out that Karl had done the dirty deed, and he was given his walking papers.

.................................................. ...............................

TERENCE SMITH: Larry Johnson, explain what the dangers are that are inherent in identifying an undercover operator. What is the worry here?

LARRY JOHNSON: Let's be very clear about what happened. This is not an alleged abuse. This is a confirmed abuse. I worked with this woman. She started training with me. She has been undercover for three decades, she is not as Bob Novak suggested a CIA analyst.

TERENCE SMITH: We should point out for the record that we invited Bob Novak to join this discussion. He told me this afternoon that he had said all he had to say on this. Your reaction, Larry?

LARRY JOHNSON: I say this as a registered Republican. I'm on record giving contributions to the George Bush campaign. This is not about partisan politics. This is about a betrayal, a political smear of an individual with no relevance to the story. Publishing her name in that story added nothing to it. His entire intent was correctly as Ambassador Wilson noted: to intimidate, to suggest that there was some impropriety that somehow his wife was in a decision making position to influence his ability to go over and savage a stupid policy, an erroneous policy and frankly, what was a false policy of suggesting that there were nuclear material in Iraq that required this war. This was about a political attack. To pretend that it's something else and to get into this parsing of words, I tell you, it sickens me to be a Republican to see this. "

Larry Johnson is a former CIA analyst and counterterrorism official at the State Department.

.................................................. ..................................

In fact, here's what Novak said in his first interview that we know of just after he leaked Plame's name in print:

Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was GIvEN to me," he said. "THEY (plural) thought it was significant, THEY (plural) gave me the name and I used it."

Suff
07-15-2005, 07:37 PM
Meanwhile, the right tries to make this about Plame's husband.."

I know?:D Thats a curious angle. What does it matter. Liar, thief, crack head , dope head who is living in a dumpster. what does it matter...

:D

Did the guy out a CIA agent for poltical retribution? That is the only thing that concerns me. If he did, he did. If he didn't he did'nt. Who cares if a Relative of the agent is a pathological liar?

What exactly is the point? It is OK to commit treason if the Spouse of the agent told a lie at one point in his/her life....:lol:

Lets see what if anything comes out. I give ROVE the benefit of the doubt on the "maliciously divulged" accusation. I'll reserve judgement on wether it was an accident, or he thought it was common knowledge. However, he should have his security clearance stripped while we sift through the evidence.

My main concern isn't even Plame/Wilson/Rove. It is the likelyhood that this isn't the only act of treason commited by the BUSH adminstration, if in fact Rove is Guilty of the crime he is under suspicion of.

I really think because of our intelligence errors leading up to the WAR in IRAQ is a component of the story line, we should do a meticolous investigation.

lsbets
07-15-2005, 07:53 PM
Again I will ask this question that you guys have been avoiding like hell, but first the background:

1) Shortly after the story first came out, Andrea Mitchell reported that it was well known that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.

2) A 25 year+ agent who supervised Plame said that everyone who knew her knew she worked for the CIA and so did her husband's friends.

So, my question is - how can you out someone as working for the CIA if a bunch of people already knew she worked for the CIA?

Until you can get around that one, you have nothing. Like you favorite group says - move on.

Suff
07-15-2005, 08:36 PM
[QUOTE]
Again I will ask this question that you guys have been avoiding like hell, but first the background:

1) Shortly after the story first came out, Andrea Mitchell reported that it was well known that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.

2) A 25 year+ agent who supervised Plame said that everyone who knew her knew she worked for the CIA and so did her husband's friends.



News Reports and Anecdotal stories? A reporter is in jail right now. In a cage. This is a Federal Investigation. They take sworn testimony. Those don't get dropped on a news story and "some guy said".

Please. This better get up on your serious scale. Folks are in jail.


Once this story broke, every intelligence angency (friend and foe) did a full blood transfusion on Valerie Plames life.

Every trip she took, where, who met with, at what time of events. Every Lucnh she had, and with whom. Every Credit card transaction. No matter how out you say she was. The fact is, the physical and electronic trail may have comprmised other operatives, or operative allies within a country.

This demands a full account.


Your two quips lose even more merit when you consider the latest version. The one where Rove learned from someone in the press about it. so everybody knew? Except Karl Rove, who she worked for! She was WMD anaylst, husband was an ambassador. Writing Op/eds for NYTIMES and Karl Rove did'nt know? Kinda tales the sting out of your everybody knew defense.

Lefty
07-15-2005, 09:11 PM
suff, that reorter would blab to high heaven if her source was Rove and you know it. She and the N.Y. Times are hiding something, uh huh...

chickenhead
07-15-2005, 09:26 PM
lemme get this right....Rove told a reporter who was who......and after all this time, until right now...he never told Bush that he was the leaker?

Rove leaked, and then let the pres go on and on about how bad leaks were, and how it will not stand...and the pres didn't know the whole time who leaked? cmon now.

Either the pres knew the whole time, or Rove should be fired for withholding info. It's either one, or the other.

Lefty
07-15-2005, 10:04 PM
chick, nope you gettin info from the dems. Novak told Rove who she was. If she was covert what's she doing recommending her hubby for job and putting herself at risk? This story just another desperate and pathetic attempt to smear this adm. However it seems Kerry really did out a CIA operative and nary a word from the dems. See my link.

Secretariat
07-15-2005, 11:40 PM
Your two quips lose even more merit when you consider the latest version. The one where Rove learned from someone in the press about it. so everybody knew? Except Karl Rove, who she worked for! She was WMD anaylst, husband was an ambassador. Writing Op/eds for NYTIMES and Karl Rove did'nt know? Kinda tales the sting out of your everybody knew defense.

Touche Suff.

"On Sept. 28, the Washington Post reported that "a senior administration official said that before Novak's column ran, two top White House officials called at least six Washington journalists and disclosed the identity and occupation of Wilson's wife." The central questions of the scandal are, who are the six journalists, what were they told, who told them, and why?"

Question #1- Why would these two officials do this? and why journalists? And which journalists?

"Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report." - bob novak's intial column

Question #2 - Obviously, Novak asserts he knew of her being an operative on WMD's, and he is saying here the two "adminstration" officials told him, NOT journalists. Why originally is it two "administration" officials and then later journalists?

I think Suff however gets to the core question. How can a man tasked with some of the most classified pieces of information in government, and a person who can pick up the phone in a moment to get answers about Plame, confirm Novak's story. Why didn't he say? I have no idea Bob, and even if i did the information would be classified.

As to Andrea Greenspan who may be one of the six journalists involved in this leak but she is claiming she knew the information AFTER Novak's column.

Should get interesting. Who knows? Perhaps it is further up and Rove is just a patsy. Hopefully, the Grand Jury will get to the bottom of this.

Tom
07-15-2005, 11:47 PM
He's saying Saddam never had weapons. But really, what he's saying is that Iraq was like it was pictured in Michael Moore's F 9/11.....nothing more than a giant theme park, with kids on ferris wheels, and folks dancing in the street with their beloved leader, Saddam Hussein.....until of course the US death machine marched in and ruined everyone's utopia.....

Whatever....


How many tickets to ride the "chipper?" :eek:

Tom
07-15-2005, 11:56 PM
Why not just take Kovak to Gitmo and beat it out of him?

the fact os this case will eventually sort themselves out, but let me say this about Karl Rove. If you invited him to your house, he would do two things, and two things only:
1. Beat up your kids.
2. Pee in your pool.

Karl Rove is not a nice person. He is a politcal hack, an attack dog. He has never, ever served this counrty and he never will. He has never, ever done a thing to make this country more secure, more prosperous and he never will. His entire live has been dedicated to foulding up the political waters and destroying other peoples lives. So even if he is innocent and still gets screwed by the sytem, so what? I really don't want bottom feeding scum bags like Rove having anything to do with our government. The world is far better off without people like him in it.

chickenhead
07-16-2005, 10:59 AM
chick, nope you gettin info from the dems. Novak told Rove who she was. If she was covert what's she doing recommending her hubby for job and putting herself at risk? This story just another desperate and pathetic attempt to smear this adm. However it seems Kerry really did out a CIA operative and nary a word from the dems. See my link.

Look, we don't know the whole story yet, no doubt. But it sure sounds like Rove confirmed the story for Novak, and told the Time guy about it. So we got two journalists that knew, and they both talked to Rove. Hmmm. And why isn't Novak in jail, has he told yet who started this whole thing? I agree with Tom, I'm no partisan, these guys are garbage. Doesn't make them unique, just garbage. Do the libs have the equivalents. Yup. They are garbage too. Why are you wasting so much time defending this scum?

Lefty
07-16-2005, 12:39 PM
chick, because a bunch of fast and loose allegations by the sore losing dem party hacks do not make a man scum. Because even if inadvertenly did confirm the name(and that remains to be seen) there's no crime, so what's the big deal other than the dems trying to make political points. Valerie Plame told several people she worked for the CIA. She made herself high profile.
You say we don't know the whole story yet you call Rove, scum. Wow, that's objective

Lefty
07-16-2005, 12:50 PM
There's more to this case than Carl Rove and you can bet on it. The special prosecutor has said that Rove is NOT the target in the investigation. Hmmmm... Here's the link"
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/7/13/85526.shtml

Secretariat
07-16-2005, 01:18 PM
There's more to this case than Carl Rove and you can bet on it. The special prosecutor has said that Rove is NOT the target in the investigation. Hmmmm... Here's the link"
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/7/13/85526.shtml

Lefty, I beleive it's "K", not "C" for Rove's first name. Please do not use the word "honorable" when talking about Rove. Isbets' post on that soldier represents "honorable" to me, not Rover's actions. Bush 1 fired Rover after his leaks to Novak which I posted earlier. Harsh words from GW's dad.

As to this "target" link you put above, here's Lawrence O'Donnell's response:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20050705/cm_huffpost/003683/nc:742

Lefty
07-16-2005, 01:31 PM
Isn't O'Donnel the leftwinger behind the tv's WESTWING? Gimme a brk.
Yes, I blve Rove to be honorable so why won't you desist in convicting him when he's not even the target of the investigation.
Why do you blve that leftwing journalist sits in jail and won't give Rove's name? Could it be Rove is not her source? Only reason she could be there. Why won't you address this fact?
And what's the diff if Rove's first name starts with a K? What's the inference in that? Reminds me when Knute was speaker of the House and dimwitted Dems made fun of his name. Is that all ya libs got?

46zilzal
07-16-2005, 01:57 PM
Yes, I blve Rove to be honorable so why won't you desist in convicting him when he's not even the target of the investigation.

Rove honorable??? about as much as the Boston Strangler

After what he did to someone in his own party??? (McCain)

Secretariat
07-16-2005, 02:51 PM
Isn't O'Donnel the leftwinger behind the tv's WESTWING? Gimme a brk.
Yes, I blve Rove to be honorable so why won't you desist in convicting him when he's not even the target of the investigation.
Why do you blve that leftwing journalist sits in jail and won't give Rove's name? Could it be Rove is not her source? Only reason she could be there. Why won't you address this fact?
And what's the diff if Rove's first name starts with a K? What's the inference in that? Reminds me when Knute was speaker of the House and dimwitted Dems made fun of his name. Is that all ya libs got?

No inference Lefty. Just thought you might like to spell his name correctly. As to "Knute" being speaker of the house, I think you mean Newt (like the amphibian) Gingrich.

Honorable has a different connotation in my book than Rover. Why did you choose to evade O'Donnell's questions?

cakes
07-16-2005, 03:11 PM
I think the man is honorable. First of all his wife was outed the day they got married. She was not a deep cover agent and she was pissed at Bush for something. Her husband lied about who sent him there. And he also lied to what the reason was someone would be sent there.

How about the 900 FBI reports that were secretly sent to the Clinton Whitehouse. We are supposed to believe the Clintons had nothing to do with that and the fact that Clinton was accused of RAPE and never came out and told his side.

And how about the secret documents that were stolen from the archive that tubby claimed they fell into his shorts and socks. DAH

skate
07-16-2005, 06:39 PM
man man oh man.


the press got you girls wrapped around their little finger

get yourself back to the starting gate


gees, its no wonder, we be going south

maybe it is me

this story has absolutely " NO NO NO" substance what-so-ever.


as a mater of friggen fact, you girls are politically agenda(ing) this phony story to suit yourself and youve lost all site of the fact that youve become programmed
right out of my book
it says it!

skate
07-16-2005, 06:45 PM
almost forget


just to show you , i still love ya

take the #3 in the second at del pk on 7/17

dont mess with the odds
go 3,4,7
3,4,7
all

welcome

Lefty
07-16-2005, 08:52 PM
46sc, what did he do to Mcain? Mcain has done a lot to hurt Repubs but what did he do to Mcain? Show me something factual and not your unfounded opinion.

Lefty
07-16-2005, 08:58 PM
sec, how in hell am I supposed to answer questions posed to Luskin?
Why don't you answer my q. If The source is Rove, why isn't the Times reporter and the Times talking> Ya don't think they're protecting Rove do yuh?

46zilzal
07-16-2005, 09:31 PM
one source amonst many: http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000311.html

lsbets
07-16-2005, 11:38 PM
An interesting quote from Joe Wilson:

BLITZER: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife, who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that.

What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you?

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html

Lefty
07-17-2005, 12:46 AM
In the primaries Mcain got as dirty as Rove. Tell ya what; when it comes to Rove vs McCain, I guess i'll stay neutral!

Lefty
07-17-2005, 12:59 AM
WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.

Then what's the fuss about? Oh, I forgot. Sore loser Dems on a witch hunt.

Kreed
07-17-2005, 09:52 AM
Happy Sunday Morning, guys, I'm off to a 9am mass but I would like to see
the ROVE accusations stopped. Lord knows this entire situation was Very
mis-managed by the White House as it does every other issue. And Rove is
no angel, but guys on this issue ROVE IS INNOCENT. I was watching this
close to nail him but my brain deduces that there's nothing he did wrong, and
maybe, Rove deserves credit for handling it well. ps: Lefty's delusional claims
of DEMS vs the Planet are signs of impairment. Come On Lefty, move on.

Lefty
07-17-2005, 12:56 PM
kreed, where to begin? When Kennedy makes accusations that the torture chambers of Sadaam are still operating under U.S. Mgt, when Durbin compres our methods to the Nazis or Russky Gulags, when Reid goes into a children's classroom and calls Bush a loser, and then there's the Dean screechings...
Who am I to blve, You are my "lying ears?"
Have a safe trip.

Secretariat
07-17-2005, 04:21 PM
Apparently, Cooper published his answers from the Grand Jury today.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/media_watch

Besides admitting Rove as his first source, the most interesting aspect to me is Rove's admission, "He has said more than he should have." indicating his awareness of improperly divulging information. Guess maybe he does know right from wrong, just decides to choose wrong.

So Lefty, I guess Cooper has answered your question confrming Rove as his source under oath to the Grand Jury. What've you got next?

Suff
07-17-2005, 06:47 PM
Oh man.... oh man....man-0-man. This is going to get ugly.


Now a Cheney staff member. They have the goods. This is the lynchpin. The one that will struggle to be heard when Rove gets arrested in 10-14 days.

The memo. The classified memo in Colin Powells hand as he got on a plane with Rove and Bush to go to Africa.

That "classified memo" is where Rove learned Plame was CIA.

Top Cheney Aide Among Sources in C.I.A. Story





http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-CIA-Leak-Investigation.html?hp&ex=1121659200&en=2f91db63e27c6efe&ei=5094&partner=homepage (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-CIA-Leak-Investigation.html?hp&ex=1121659200&en=2f91db63e27c6efe&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

lsbets
07-17-2005, 07:03 PM
I read this yesterday:

"Why Can't The Gray Lady Read?
The New York Times reports on a memo that Colin Powell reportedly carried aboard Air Force One on a trip to Africa the week before Robert Novak named Valerie Plame as a CIA agent. The importance of this memo revolves around the people who accompanied the President and Powell on the Africa trip and the fact that it describes the circumstances of Joe Wilson's hiring for the mission to Niger. However, the report by Richard Stevenson makes several factual errors that even a quick perusal of the Intelligence Committee report would correct.

The first error committed by Stevenson is one of omission. The Times has been beating a supposed Karl Rove connection to death over the past few weeks. However, if one looks at the contact dates for the two conversations Rove had with reporters -- July 9 for Novak, July 11 for Matt Cooper -- obviously Rove didn't go to Africa and didn't have access to the memo. After all, both reporters called Rove, not the other way around, and both started their conversations on different topics that hardly would have been so pressing that they would have been redirected by satellite to AF1."

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/004970.php

Common sense would say that Rove did not get her name from that memo.

Does anyone else find it ironic that we are all talking about leaks coming from an investigation about leaks?

Suff
07-17-2005, 07:03 PM
Matthew Cooper in tommorrow's TIME

"So did Rove leak Plame's name to me, or tell me she was covert? No. Was it through my conversation with Rove that I learned for the first time that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and may have been responsible for sending him? Yes. Did Rove say that she worked at the 'agency' on 'WMD'? Yes," Cooper wrote in Time's current edition.

"When he said things would be declassified soon, was that itself impermissible? I don't know. Is any of this a crime? Beats me," Cooper wrote, adding that he was not certain what Rove meant by commenting he had already said too much.

Secretariat
07-17-2005, 07:54 PM
Common sense would say that Rove did not get her name from that memo.


The problem is Cooper has now stated publicly that BOTH Rove, AND Libby were sources. (I didn't know Libby gave him a waiver - he's squealing like a pig).

Cooper when asked whether he had recieved Plame's name prior to Rove's disclosure, he said know. In other words, he first heard from Rove about Plame...."Common sense" tells me that a man who is exposed to classified information working on top security issues in the WH, and a man who states that Plame was working on WMD issues, "common sense" tells me that you don't reveal this kind of information to a "reporter".

Seriously, can you imagine if any other adminstration, Repub, or Dem had done this. Bush I fired the guy, yet some here feel obligated to defend this scum. Frankly, I don't care whether Bush the son fires him or not..he's simply a political Limbaugh for a corrupt bunch in the WH. This is more about losing his job, it is about who is going to prison for treason.

So now Rove and Libby are implicated. Rove revealing Plame's identity to Cooper without Cooper's knowledge of Plame's status.

Novak, Rove, Libby....three stooges,...hopefully going down...the question is were they acting alone, or were they simply pushing something their bosses encouraged?

lsbets
07-17-2005, 08:01 PM
Sec apparantly you read pretty poorly too. All I talked about was Rove getting her name from that memo, as Suff asserted. Common sense still says he didn't get her name from that memo. I haven't defended anyone - I've tried to look objectivly at everything I have read, and none of it adds up. I will stand by what I have said - none of it adds up - Rove's motives, Wilson's actions and veracity, and the lack of any real evidence. I also stand by saying this will amount to nothing. It smells of partisan politics on both sides, nothing else.

Until you can convince me that she had an identity that most people who knew her were not aware of, I will not be convinced that any outing took place. Of course, your way of doing so was to call Andrea Mitchell by her husband's name - yeah, you make some strong arguments there. I have seen no one refute what Mitchell initially reported and what Plame's former supervisor said - it was well known that she worked for the CIA. So, if it was well known, how was she outed? Someone please tell me how you can out someone when a lot of people already know who she is?

Suff
07-17-2005, 08:07 PM
I

Does anyone else find it ironic that we are all talking about leaks coming from an investigation about leaks?

Do you find it interesting that you quote people totally unconnected to the incident....and I'm quoting people who are?

Who the F is this guy? (Common sense tell me that as a man....:bang: ) Another guy with an opinion and a "hypothosis"....




I don't understand what your doing? Acting for defense counsel for ROVE or the GOP? Your independent you say. there are 1000's of claims that debunk PLame and Wilson and exonerate Rove. It is of no real meaning at this point in the game. Thats what I am trying to tell you. Your using unsworn, uncoberated anecdotal examples to defend Rove and I'm not sure why?

If you were truly independent you would read the people who have spoken that have TESTIFIED under oath. Did you know Rove was called before the Grand Jury 4 times? And was stopped "unexpectedly" two times by FBI agents.....and interviewed informally? Did you know those FACTS!! Facts isbets.. not... "I woulda acted this way if I was cooper" silly stuff.

The WH was (scott mcellan) was saying from the presedential pulpit that ROVe and LIBBY were in NO WAY involved. Thats a FRIGGIN LIE!!!! Karl Rove was appearing before the GJ 4 times in 2004 and was interviewed by the FBI as a "subject" in the case. Not a target,,at that point.. but a SUBJECT...

Did you see me saying last week that Bush knows something we don't? He knows the Justice dept is going to raid the WH, while escorting Libby and Rove out in Handcuufs and the BUSH era is OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JustRalph
07-17-2005, 08:14 PM
Sec, you are starting to rave. You called Rove a political Limbaugh? What the hell does that mean? Rush is a radio personality??? How you compare these two, I think it is a reach.

You wonder who is going to prison for treason? Come on ? You state:

"or were they simply pushing something their bosses encouraged?"

You never heard of a dis-information campaign? I think there was probably a good reason (and we may never know why) these guys leaked the info and there probably would have been more revelations or other tactics employed had the need arisen. Now the chips fall where they may........but you guys are screaming way too loud and hard.........way too early. As usual........

lsbets
07-17-2005, 08:14 PM
Suff,

What I find intersting is that someone who claims to be a great handicapper such as yourself is totally and completely unable to analyze things because analysis points to a result he doesn't want to see. If you did that in your capping you'd go broke.

So there is something wrong with reading and sharing an analysis that comes to a conclusion contrary to yours. Well, sorry Suff, we are allowed to think for ourselves and don't have to blindly follow your proclomations.

You don't understand what I'm doing? I'm trying to look at all of the information and point out what I see as some big inconsistancies between what appear to be the facts and what is being spun in the media. Somehow, based on some of your recent posts, I am not surprised that you cannot understand wanting to know the truth.

JustRalph
07-17-2005, 08:17 PM
Hey Suff.........Grand Jury info is secret. Even if McClellen did know the info you cite, he couldn't relate it. It is going to be interesting. I think your prediction of the Bush era being over is a little bit of wishful thinking..........

Suff
07-17-2005, 08:20 PM
Suff,



. Well, sorry Suff, we are allowed to think for ourselves and don't have to blindly follow your proclomations.

No ....Your not. Free to make up a story. You must incooperate KNOWN facts or else what are you doing?

I am not proclaiming anything. I am demonstrating the KNOWN FACTS so perhaps you can address them, or research them and come to a different conclusion.

If your going to ignore sworn testimony then why have a conversation?

lsbets
07-17-2005, 08:35 PM
Suff,

Its called analysis. Sorry you are so offended that I showed you are probably wrong. You didn't show a known fact, you came to a conclusion - and chances are you were wrong, and you're pissed because I showed why you are probably wrong.

Known facts - Bush and Powell went to Africa. Powell had a memo. Reporters called Rove about Wilson and maybe Plame (if you believe the sworn testimony, which you seem to do when it is convenient).

Your conclusion- Rove got Plame's info from the memo.

My conclusion - the reporters called Rove in the White House, so he was not in Africa. If he was not in Africa, than he did not see the memo that Powell took with him to Africa.

Yeah, I'm making up stories. It's ironic you talk about known facts, when apparantly you don't even know what a fact is. Give me a friggin break.

Suff
07-17-2005, 08:38 PM
ok.. I'll give you the last word on this today. Only because I think you'll eat crow by thursday:lol:


I know what I know. they f'd up. Ralph knows it.

lsbets
07-17-2005, 08:49 PM
If I eat crow, I'll admit. My question is - will you?

And I'll also apologize for directing my anger at our whole political system towards you. I am thoroughly disgusted with the way things are in Washington these days. We have real problems that need to be addressed and aren't because (IMO) the opposition party is more interested in making Bush look bad than finding solutions, so they constantly jump on the newest bandwagon, the WH fires back, and no one does anything about the real problems we face. Its sickening.

Secretariat
07-17-2005, 09:05 PM
Until you can convince me that she had an identity that most people who knew her were not aware of, I will not be convinced that any outing took place. Of course, your way of doing so was to call Andrea Mitchell by her husband's name - yeah, you make some strong arguments there. I have seen no one refute what Mitchell initially reported and what Plame's former supervisor said - it was well known that she worked for the CIA. So, if it was well known, how was she outed? Someone please tell me how you can out someone when a lot of people already know who she is?

I'll let someone familiar with WH scandals and an attorney state it better than I. As to Andrea Greenspan, she only states that it was well known...oh, really...well, Andrea also states she was unaware until AFTER Novak's article.

Anway, a great read by John Dean, former Nixon WH attorney, who asserts laws were broken here.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Impeachment/DeanOnWilsonLeakWorseThanNixon.html

By JOHN W. DEAN
On July 14, in his syndicated column, Chicago Sun-Times journalist Robert Novak reported that Valerie Plame Wilson - the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, and mother of three-year-old twins - was a covert CIA agent. (She had been known to her friends as an "energy analyst at a private firm.")

Why was Novak able to learn this highly secret information? It turns out that he didn't have to dig for it. Rather, he has said, the "two senior Administration officials" he had cited as sources sought him out, eager to let him know. And in journalism, that phrase is a term of art reserved for a vice president, cabinet officers, and top White House officials.

On July 17, Time magazine published the same story, attributing it to "government officials." And on July 22, Newsday's Washington Bureau confirmed "that Valerie Plame ... works at the agency [CIA] on weapons of mass destruction issues in an undercover capacity." More specifically, according to a "senior intelligence official," Newsday reported, she worked in the "Directorate of Operations [as an] undercover officer."

JustRalph
07-17-2005, 09:30 PM
I know what I know. they f'd up. Ralph knows it.

I agree they F'd up. Unless they wanted all this attention. These guys are too smart to be this transparent. I wonder what we are missing because this thing is taking up everybodies time?

I also agree that they are dancing on the line when it comes to the law. I think they probably know that they won't end up with any real penalty and once again.......... it reminds me of the old magician who distracts you with one hand and pulls a rabbit out with the other...............it makes me wonder if the Dems are rushing in to scream and holler and in the mean time Bush (i.e rover) is slipping something else by them...........like I say.......it is going to be interesting..........

My other thought is that they are inviting some kind of charges so that they can then ask for charges against someone else.......on the other side? Someone who has done something worse...but along the same lines. You never know..????? Maybe Hillary or somebody who could be an opponent in the next election cycle might get caught up in the same web if Rove gets charged.............think about it............

Tom
07-17-2005, 10:03 PM
Do some research into Rove's history - his methods of getting things done.

He is just as bad, if not worse that moveon.org. People like him, on either side, are rattlesnakes and have no place in a civilized governement. We need to drive them out on both sides of the aisle. And lobbyists with them.
This governments is supposed to represent us.....does anyone out there seriously entertain the idea that Carl Rove is working to better America or help us, the people? If yes, PM me, I have a bridge you might like to look at.
All this crap from fringe people on both sides is garbage. Rush Limbaugh is a pompous ass who presents one side of the story and has a goal to make money. He is funny at times doing it. On the other side, Randy Rhodes is trailer park trash who presents one side of the story and has a goal of I don't know what....get layed? Be believed. She is never funny while doing it.

All this crap is fringe stuff to keep us from looking at the real issues. You are not going to learn anything listening to either right or left wing radio.

Suff
07-17-2005, 10:14 PM
Anway, a great read by John Dean, former Nixon WH attorney, who asserts laws were broken here.

."

On both sides. Who cares what John Dean thinks? Maybe my Judical experience is different from others. They have sworn testimony. That is all that matters... It's not partisian any longer. In America putting someone in Jail opens up pressure points. Judy Miller/NY times have lawyers w/$$. As we speak they're preparing motions to release e-mails, unclassified memo's, GJ testimony and everything else.

imho estimation this will be a conspiracy by friday. They agreed in unision to take Wilson/Plame down at any costs.

Lefty
07-17-2005, 10:19 PM
Tom, can't get a line on you. One day you're on 1 side another, who the hell knows. Without Rush Limbaugh blazing the trail we would only be getting the libs' side of everyting. Sure glad Rush is there. He makes no bones about being a conservative unlike others who say they're objective but clearly are not.
Rush set out to be on the radio, not to make money. But, us conservatives who were glad to see our side finally get aired have made him a fortune. What's wrong with that? Capitalism is great, except for libs who yearn for socialism.
All you know about Rove is what the libs present. Get on 1 side or the other. You're making me dizzy.

Tom
07-17-2005, 10:36 PM
Lefty....there is only one side - the truth. Neither Rush nor the libs offer it up completley. Do some research on Rove and tell you would want your son to grow up do some of the things he did.

I can't pick one side over the other - both are right and wrong on some things.
I am looking for result - actual result in the real world. Neither side is delivering much. Yeah, tow nations freed from tyrants, but that was not what I signed up for - I signed on to kill terrorsits, not build sidewalks. How many potential murderers are lioving tight here like those four in England, just waiting? You think frsiking grandmas at the airport are doing anything to halt terroism?
What I am saying is both sides are miserable failures and both sides need to be completely overhauled top to bottom. We need leaders, not politicians. We need governement that represents the people, not big businesses and lobbyists.
Over 100 elected representatives just sold thier votes Friday to undermine national securitiy in favor of their deals with China. Where is the outrage over that?

Steve 'StatMan'
07-17-2005, 10:38 PM
They agreed in unision to take Wilson/Plame down at any costs.

Whether Plame was covert and getting the secrets, or not-covert but passing on the secrets, and Wilson gets sent their actually on his and his wife's own, finds out the lousy work that his wife and her coworkers are responsible for that affects how the president handles foreign affairs, then openly bashes the president in the media for using his wife and her co-worker bad information in making decisions, that rotten dumb-ass and his lousy wife deserve to go down. Lucky for the two of them we're not in the G. Gordon Liddy days, they'd have both been asassination targets, and deservedly so.

Find out the informatino is bad, fine. Blast the public president for using you're wife's bad information and making people think it's the president's fault, before the election, sorry. "ploot! ploot!", Nite-Nite!

Suff
07-17-2005, 10:51 PM
Whether Plame was covert and getting the secrets, or not-covert but passing on the secrets, and Wilson gets sent their actually on his and his wife's own, finds out the lousy work that his wife and her coworkers are responsible for that affects how the president handles foreign affairs, then openly bashes the president in the media for using his wife and her co-worker bad information in making decisions, that rotten dumb-ass and his lousy wife deserve to go down. Lucky for the two of them we're not in the G. Gordon Liddy days, they'd have both been asassination targets, and deservedly so.
!

Boy ....your on straight coolaid to huh? This just in.... 20 mins ago on Drudge


CNNWASHPOST HOWARD KURTZ: A lot of people have picked up on your description in the memos to your bureau chief of that conversation -- "It was on double super secret background." What did that mean?

TIME MATT COOPER: Well, Howie, I can now reveal that it was a joke. Karl Rove, when we had the conversation, wanted it to be on deep background, which I took to mean I could use the material but not quote it directly, and certainly not attribute it, that I had to protect the identity of my source. When I wrote the note to my bureau chief, just moments after the conversation with Rove, in a slightly playful way, I echoed the line in the movie "Animal House," where John Belushi's wild fraternity is put on double secret probation. So it was a little bit of humor

R U BLIND? Matt cooper testified, please provide counter testimony that shows Karl Rove was not:

#1 His source.... not the other way around.

#2 Rove stressed the deepness of the background. Goes to motive.


Please, can you provide counter SWORN testimony that debunks this?

wonatthewire1
07-17-2005, 11:00 PM
do a little searching and you'll find out why...

Tom has the "right stuff" when it comes to looking at both sides of the issue > agreeing with one side on one issue and another on another side should it make sense...ideology is a politician's tool to keep the minds busy while they are making their deals > power is the name of the game > ideology is the sideshow to get on TV & on radio...

Its an interesting story and one that has far-reaching implications; not that any of us will find out the "whole story" but it is troubling to see how far people will go once the grip of hubris has enveloped a situation.

Something just smells really bad about the entire situation :ThmbDown:

lsbets
07-17-2005, 11:20 PM
So Sec, your answer is still "Andrea Greenspan". Your answer is something I'm sure you consider wit, but I would just call lame.

Steve 'StatMan'
07-17-2005, 11:32 PM
Boy ....your on straight coolaid to huh?

Too much caffeine, too many diet cokes.

Wonder what Wilson's and Plame's excuse is. Give the leaders screwed up ntelligence, then blame the leaders for using it. Geeze, hope this couple didn't reproduce. I think they did already. Hope they don't go into government jobs when they grow up.

Rove or Not Rove. Personally I don't care. Hope nobody broke the law, don't really want people breaking the law. May not have if she wasn't covert like I'm reading elsewhere. Nasty, yes, but just returning a nasty favor back to where it came from. Super-Secret, yes, more like a "Please don't tell them I'm the backstabber", but if they find the law wasn't actually broken, then we'll just know it was a nasty payback for a nasty deed in the first place. Still, if the Bush admin. was really this supposedly Evil Empire with all sorts of nasty actions, murderous designs on world and oil/energy domination, and evil gulags, then why not "ploot! ploot!", end of a bad spy and her worthless husband that made a lot of trouble, and then tried to make the Presiden's fault instead of their own for the bad information? Guess the Bush Admin. isn't the total ultimate evil after all.

Steve 'StatMan'
07-18-2005, 12:03 AM
Hey, Bush could have appointed Wilson & Plame as U.S. Ambassadors to Iraq. :D

Secretariat
07-18-2005, 01:14 AM
So Sec, your answer is still "Andrea Greenspan". Your answer is something I'm sure you consider wit, but I would just call lame.

But her name is Andrea Greenspan. I hope I haven't "outed" her.

Frankly, with Cooper confirming Libby and Rove as sources today in his article, it ties directly to two men who have the direct ear of the President and Vice President. The question I have is: Why? Why would BOTH Libby and Rove feel the need to call Cooper and inform him about Plame. As Novak said in his original article, he was "sought out" by two senior admisntration officials. Dean's article and Novak's orignal article are very important, not what they say a year later.

As to Rove, he's done this before and simply been fired. I, like you, just want to get at the truth, and hopefully by the end of the summer, we may have the Grand Jury's actual testimony. "If" this drags into next year, I doubt those involved in mid-year elections want this and Iraq hanging around their neck

hcap
07-18-2005, 07:54 AM
From Meet the Press..

Cooper
"So did [Karl] Rove leak Plame's name to me, or tell me she was covert? No. Was it through my conversation with Rove that I learned for the first time that [Joe] Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and may have been responsible for sending him?"--to Niger. "Yes. Did Rove say that she worked at the `agency' on `WMD'?"--weapons of mass destruction. "Yes. When he said things would be declassified soon, was that itself impermissible? I don't know."

Russert
For the record, the first time you learned that Joe Wilson's wife worked for the CIA was from Karl Rove?

MR. COOPER: That's correct. '


From
Juan Cole....

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/rove-it-is-all-going-to-be.html

We may conclude from Mr. Cooper's statements that Karl Rove not only knew that Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife worked at the CIA, but also that she was working on the Weapons of Mass Destruction issue. I conclude that he must have known that telling Time Magazine about her would negatively affect her ability to do her job with regard to WMD.

We may also conclude that Karl Rove knew that he was discussing classified information with Mr. Cooper. Why otherwise promise that the information would be declassified?

...Moroever, the reason for which Rove wanted to discredit Wilson was that he was afraid the false Niger story would become an issue in the 2004 presidential campaign. Rove intended to paint Bush as a war hero who could be trusted with the nation's security. If Bush routinely went to war because he had gullibly swallowed a load of bull, then the American public might not put him back in. Wilson's credibility had to be destroyed.

hcap
07-18-2005, 08:07 AM
Also from MTP

"RUSSERT: When one is given classified clearance, they are asked to sign an oath, and they are given a briefing book with form. Standard Form 312, it's called.

And if you read this briefing book, it says this:

"Before...confirming the accuracy of what appears in the public source, the signer of [the] SF 312 must confirm through an authorized official that the information has, in fact, been declassified. If it has not...confirmation of its accuracy is also an unauthorized disclosure."

So by confirming a story from Robert Novak or sharing information with Matt Cooper, no matter where it came from, if, in fact, it was classified information, without seeking to determine whether it was declassified, it is an unauthorized disclosure."


I believe SF 312, also known as the “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement,” is separate from the criminal investigation.


It’s about proper behavior for government employees with high security clearances such as Rove

hcap
07-18-2005, 08:26 AM
Credability of the administration vs Joe Wilson.

In September, 2003, on Meet the Press, again , Dick Cheney said he did not know Joseph Wilson and had never met him.

CHENEY: "No. I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson."

..."And Joe Wilson—I don’t who sent Joe Wilson. He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back.

...like I say, I don’t know Mr. Wilson. I probably shouldn’t judge him. I have no idea who hired him and it never came..."


Dick Cheney was Defense Secretary under former President Bush during Gulf War I. Joseph Wilson was charge d'affaires in Baghdad.

ljb
07-18-2005, 10:39 AM
Please don't quote me on this but, I am hearing stories that this is just the tip of the iceberg. This investigation will not only expose Rove and Cheney's staff as treasonous persons, it will also get into additional lies and scams the administration used in fooling the public into supporting their invasion of Iraq. Hang on folks this could get ugly.

Secretariat
07-18-2005, 12:17 PM
Credability of the administration vs Joe Wilson.

In September, 2003, on Meet the Press, again , Dick Cheney said he did not know Joseph Wilson and had never met him.

CHENEY: "No. I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson."

..."And Joe Wilson—I don’t who sent Joe Wilson. He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back.

...like I say, I don’t know Mr. Wilson. I probably shouldn’t judge him. I have no idea who hired him and it never came..."


Dick Cheney was Defense Secretary under former President Bush during Gulf War I. Joseph Wilson was charge d'affaires in Baghdad.

Well, it either speaks to incompetence to <Cheney> is a liar. Since he said the exact same thing about Edwards during the campaign, and then is shown sitting beside him ay a dinner, we kind of know it is the latter. Cheney was a part of the Nixon WH. Of course he's a liar.

Secretariat
07-18-2005, 12:19 PM
Also from MTP

"RUSSERT: When one is given classified clearance, they are asked to sign an oath, and they are given a briefing book with form. Standard Form 312, it's called.

And if you read this briefing book, it says this:

"Before...confirming the accuracy of what appears in the public source, the signer of [the] SF 312 must confirm through an authorized official that the information has, in fact, been declassified. If it has not...confirmation of its accuracy is also an unauthorized disclosure."

So by confirming a story from Robert Novak or sharing information with Matt Cooper, no matter where it came from, if, in fact, it was classified information, without seeking to determine whether it was declassified, it is an unauthorized disclosure."


I believe SF 312, also known as the “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement,” is separate from the criminal investigation.


It’s about proper behavior for government employees with high security clearances such as Rove


Thanks for the info. Pretty obvious Rove has violated that oath.

46zilzal
07-18-2005, 12:26 PM
Credability of the administration vs Joe Wilson.

In September, 2003, on Meet the Press, again , Dick Cheney said he did not know Joseph Wilson and had never met him.

CHENEY: "No. I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson."

..."And Joe Wilson—I don’t who sent Joe Wilson. He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back.

...like I say, I don’t know Mr. Wilson. I probably shouldn’t judge him. I have no idea who hired him and it never came..."


Dick Cheney was Defense Secretary under former President Bush during Gulf War I. Joseph Wilson was charge d'affaires in Baghdad.


Didn't he say the same thing about Edwards and then the press showed them at a meeting together??? Selective forgetfullness??

JustRalph
07-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the info. Pretty obvious Rove has violated that oath.

Well you better get busy on the Kerry investigation. He outted a "currently undercover" operative and nobody seems to give a damn........I didn't hear you calling for his head ...........on treason charges............duplicity once again.....

ljb
07-18-2005, 06:48 PM
The water is getting hotter. Bush is now hedging his bets on this fiasco. First he said anyone involved in leaking would be out. Now he says anyone "convicted" of leaking would be out. The damage has been done, no matter what the neocons say, this clarification by Bush is an admission of guilt.

JustRalph
07-18-2005, 07:29 PM
The water is getting hotter. Bush is now hedging his bets on this fiasco. First he said anyone involved in leaking would be out. Now he says anyone "convicted" of leaking would be out. The damage has been done, no matter what the neocons say, this clarification by Bush is an admission of guilt.

So what? What will the real effect be? None.........that's what. It won't change a damn thing. Bush has 3 more years either way.

Lefty
07-18-2005, 09:42 PM
lbj, are ya dreaming? Why should he get rid of an innocent man? If Rove is convicted, he's out. Why isn't that good enough? Cause you're a sheep following lib, that's why.
Cooper called Rove and then changed the subject. He was the one that started brght up the subject, and Rove told him toi get his facts strght. It's AMBUSH journalism. You guys couldn't score with all the other crap you tried to smear Bush with and you won't get him now. Why? Cause unlike Clinton, he's a principaled man.
Why would A N.Y. Times reporter sit in jail if her source was Rove. Why won't any you libs theorize on that one, you're so damn good at theorizing.

ljb
07-18-2005, 11:35 PM
lbj, are ya dreaming? Why should he get rid of an innocent man? If Rove is convicted, he's out. Why isn't that good enough? Cause you're a sheep following lib, that's why.
Cooper called Rove and then changed the subject. He was the one that started brght up the subject, and Rove told him toi get his facts strght. It's AMBUSH journalism. You guys couldn't score with all the other crap you tried to smear Bush with and you won't get him now. Why? Cause unlike Clinton, he's a principaled man.
Why would A N.Y. Times reporter sit in jail if her source was Rove. Why won't any you libs theorize on that one, you're so damn good at theorizing.
Lefty,
Bush's flip-flopping on his dumping anyone involved in outing a cia operative creates a free pass for Karl. The trial won't be over until Bush is long gone.
As for the sheep remark, did you like my redneck joke ? It had a sheep in it.
Clinton lied no one died, Bush lied thousands died and counting. Guess your idea of principles is different then mine. I have no idea why the N.Y. Times reporter is sitting in jail, perhaps N.Y. Times folks have higher values? Whatcha think ?

Lefty
07-18-2005, 11:50 PM
lbj, Ny times have values, now THAT's a joke!
She's in jail for not naming her source. If it was Karl Rove she'd have blabbed in a N.Y. second. Clinton lied and lottsa old people lost their savings in the Whitewater scandal and 12 people went to jail while slick Willie escapes.
Bush didn't lie that's the lie you sheep keep repeating. Lottsa people been saved if you're referring to Iraq and you are. Saddam's death and torture camps no longer operating. 2 democracies in the midddle east and terorists killed and captured every dayand yet you libs keep on pounding Bush. My guess, he represents capitalism and you are a bunch of socialists. Only thing I can figure. The Dem party wants their power back and the country and world be damned but you sheep? Has to be socialism thing.

Lefty
07-18-2005, 11:58 PM
lbj, btw, because of Clinton a lot of us may die. He allwed his biggest contributor to sell a satellite launching system to China. Only a matter of time till they figure out how to launch missiles with it. In light of recent threat, they may have already done it. So get real. Clinton a disaster for this country.

Secretariat
07-19-2005, 12:39 AM
Why would A N.Y. Times reporter sit in jail if her source was Rove. Why won't any you libs theorize on that one, you're so damn good at theorizing.

I'll take a shot. Perhaps Miller's source was not Rove, but someone like Libby who has not given her a waiver to talk. However, Rove did give Cooper a waiver, and Cooper confirmed that Rove was his source.

Lefty, I almost feel sorry for you. You're desperately going back to Clinton, and calling Rove an honorable man. It reveals how fearful you really are that things are unraveling. Had you simply said like Isbets and PA, let's wait till the facts come out i would udnerstand, but I am afraid you are going to have a heart attack about this. It's just a horse forum Lefty. Relax and look forward to SAR next week. I'm sure Karl is.

hcap
07-19-2005, 08:16 AM
Scotty Mclellans WH press briefing

"Scott, the President seemed to raise the bar and add a qualifier today when discussing whether or not anybody would be dismissed for -- in the leak of a CIA officer's name, in which he said that he would -- if someone is found to have committed a crime, they would no longer work in this administration. That's never been part of the standard before, why is that added now?"

Okeedokee, the prez backpeddles into now "criminal" vs previous "involvement".

So "if someone is found to have committed a crime, they would no longer work in this administration"

Two questions.
1-Elliott Abrams
2-John Poindexter

Both convicted criminals.
Pardoned by poppy bush, like gerry ford pardoning nixon.

hcap
07-19-2005, 08:26 AM
Waxman: Bush Statement on Rove Conflicts with Executive Order
By Rep. Henry A. Waxman
Monday 18 July 2005

Dear Mr. President:

In June 2004, you said that you would fire anyone found to be involved in the disclosure of Valerie Wilson's identity as a covert CIA agent. [1] Today, you significantly changed your position, stating that you would remove Karl Rove or other White House officials involved in the security breach only "if someone committed a crime." [2]

Your new standard is not consistent with your obligations to enforce Executive Order 12958, which governs the protection of national security secrets. The executive order states: "Officers and employees of the United States Government ... shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently ... disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified." [3] Under the executive order, the available sanctions include "reprimand, suspension without pay, removal, termination of classification authority, loss or denial of access to classified information, or other sanctions." [4]

Under the executive order, you may not wait until criminal intent and liability are proved by a prosecutor. Instead, you have an affirmative obligation to take "appropriate and prompt corrective action." [5] And the standards of proof are much different. A criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, which Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald is investigating, requires a finding that Mr. Rove "intentionally disclose[d]" the identity of a covert agent. [6] In contrast, the administrative sanctions under Executive Order 12958 can be imposed without a finding of intent. Under the express terms of the executive order, you are required to impose administrative sanctions - such as removal of office or termination of security clearance - if Mr. Rove or other officials acted "negligently" in disclosing or confirming information about Ms. Wilson's identity. [7]

I have enclosed a fact sheet on Karl Rove's Nondisclosure Agreement and its legal implications, which provides additional detail about the President's national security obligations. I urge you to act in compliance with Executive Order 12958 and your responsibility to safeguard national security secrets.

Sincerely,

Henry A. Waxman
Ranking Minority Member

lsbets
07-19-2005, 08:40 AM
Just to keep things honest, here is Bush's first statement from Sept 2003 about the leak:

"Let me just say something about leaks in Washington. There are too many leaks of classified information in Washington. There's leaks at the executive branch; there's leaks in the legislative branch. There's just too many leaks. And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of. "

And here is the exchange from June 2004:

"Q Given -- given recent developments in the CIA leak case, particularly Vice President Cheney's discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, a suggestion that it might be difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name?

THE PRESIDENT: That's up to --

Q And, and, do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And that's up to the U.S. Attorney to find the facts. "


To me, it sounds like he is saying what he always did, if someone violated the law they will be fired, of course, it is being spun completely different.

Kreed
07-19-2005, 08:40 AM
Frank Rich in Sundays' NYT Op Ed says that Rove will resign. I let Rove off
the hook, thinking that He, Rove, just corroborated someone's elses rumor
about Valerie P., but now it seems He, Rove, was the rumor's source. No matter
what happens its important to recall that Rove is a NoBody in the scheme of
things, but this Bush is beyond contempt. I am 100% ashamed of Bush and
I can't forgive anyone who voted for him for his 2nd term.