Gulfstream sticking it to horseplayers again

[cj]

https://twitter.com/TimeformUSfigs/status/946490054700163072
https://twitter.com/TimeformUSfigs/status/946490058168848387

[cj]

I guess people are numb to Gulfstream, nobody seems to care. Won't bother in the future.

[Denny]

I care CJ.
Check my last post on the Jockey thread, made just a few minutes ago before reading this!

The name I coined for them is GulfSCAM Park.

You should see some of the posts I've made over the years at HRI (HorseRaceInsider.com).

[GMB@BP]

I guess people are numb to Gulfstream, nobody seems to care. Won't bother in the future.

I refuse to wager on that place after all your comments.

[cj]

They are calling these race "about" 7.5f but the times given are not for an about distance. They are for exactly 7.5f. It is just a blatant lie to cover up the sham that the distance of these races really is.

[AstrosFan]

The rebuilt GP is a sham!

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/947160670277025792





Let's Take Action

https://www.classaction.org/free-case-evaluation

If you've been harmed by a company's negligence or misconduct, you may have the right to sue for your losses. At ClassAction.org, we help people take action.

[jay68802]

One problem here is the the track is not set to have 7.5f races. When the races are run at that exact distance the first turn is to close to the starting gate. The other problem is that the owners and trainers want the 7.5f races. So the track bows to them, and as a result, handicappers are left with the problem of how to deal with the resulting information.

I am a landlord, and I try very hard to keep my renters happy. Fix the plumbing, keep the grass mowed, snow removal are all things that I have learned that are not to be put off. As a result, I have very few openings and no trouble filling them when I do. I am as proud of this as CJ seems to be of the accuracy of his figures. He seems to care not only because of his reputation, but he understands that his customers use his product because of this.

Horse racing seems not to have these values. They view their customers as revenue, and that is it. Can tracks time races accurately? Yes, but would rather spend the money by increasing purses than investing money in ways to keep their customers. Could horse racing get rid of drugs? Yes, but instead spend their revenue in other ways. Customer satisfaction is part of this game that could be easily increased, and the best way to do this is obvious.

Stop the song and dance and show some integrity.

[dilanesp]

One problem here is the the track is not set to have 7.5f races. When the races are run at that exact distance the first turn is to close to the starting gate. The other problem is that the owners and trainers want the 7.5f races. So the track bows to them, and as a result, handicappers are left with the problem of how to deal with the resulting information.

I am a landlord, and I try very hard to keep my renters happy. Fix the plumbing, keep the grass mowed, snow removal are all things that I have learned that are not to be put off. As a result, I have very few openings and no trouble filling them when I do. I am as proud of this as CJ seems to be of the accuracy of his figures. He seems to care not only because of his reputation, but he understands that his customers use his product because of this.

Horse racing seems not to have these values. They view their customers as revenue, and that is it. Can tracks time races accurately? Yes, but would rather spend the money by increasing purses than investing money in ways to keep their customers. Could horse racing get rid of drugs? Yes, but instead spend their revenue in other ways. Customer satisfaction is part of this game that could be easily increased, and the best way to do this is obvious.

Stop the song and dance and show some integrity.

Why not just standardize the run up and gice the exact distance then?

[cj]

One problem here is the the track is not set to have 7.5f races. When the races are run at that exact distance the first turn is to close to the starting gate. The other problem is that the owners and trainers want the 7.5f races. So the track bows to them, and as a result, handicappers are left with the problem of how to deal with the resulting information.

I am a landlord, and I try very hard to keep my renters happy. Fix the plumbing, keep the grass mowed, snow removal are all things that I have learned that are not to be put off. As a result, I have very few openings and no trouble filling them when I do. I am as proud of this as CJ seems to be of the accuracy of his figures. He seems to care not only because of his reputation, but he understands that his customers use his product because of this.

Horse racing seems not to have these values. They view their customers as revenue, and that is it. Can tracks time races accurately? Yes, but would rather spend the money by increasing purses than investing money in ways to keep their customers. Could horse racing get rid of drugs? Yes, but instead spend their revenue in other ways. Customer satisfaction is part of this game that could be easily increased, and the best way to do this is obvious.

Stop the song and dance and show some integrity.

Horsemen might want them for some unknown reason that makes no sense, but with the ridiculous run up they aren't really 7.5 furlong races anyway.


Gulfstream gets everything wrong. They can't time races, the make up a race and phony double the purse. The lie about run up and distance. They mistimed the Pegasus. The put the gate in the wrong place for a 5f turf stake. And yesterday, the creme de la creme, they released this ad a short time after a bunch of horses died in a fire. You can't make it up.

https://twitter.com/PegasusWorldCup/status/946759032676724736

[jay68802]

Why not just standardize the run up and gice the exact distance then?

The distance does not fit the track. To get the right distance when you move the rail out, the starting gate is still to close to the first turn. And the owners and trainers complain because the outside draws are at a disadvantage. Increasing the run up just adds to the problem. Just quit carding the bad distance and call it a flat mile, that is basically what it is anyway.

[jay68802]

Horsemen might want them for some unknown reason that makes no sense, but with the ridiculous run up they aren't really 7.5 furlong races anyway.


Gulfstream gets everything wrong. They can't time races, the make up a race and phony double the purse. The lie about run up and distance. They mistimed the Pegasus. The put the gate in the wrong place for a 5f turf stake. And yesterday, the creme de la creme, they released this ad a short time after a bunch of horses died in a fire. You can't make it up.

https://twitter.com/PegasusWorldCup/status/946759032676724736

Wow, I don't know what to say about the add. In their own little world I guess, no class.

[jay68802]

I think Andy Beyer did a opinion column on this very subject, and gave some reasons why the horsemen wanted this distance. I try to find it.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Horsemen might want them for some unknown reason that makes no sense, but with the ridiculous run up they aren't really 7.5 furlong races anyway.


Gulfstream gets everything wrong. They can't time races, the make up a race and phony double the purse. The lie about run up and distance. They mistimed the Pegasus. The put the gate in the wrong place for a 5f turf stake. And yesterday, the creme de la creme, they released this ad a short time after a bunch of horses died in a fire. You can't make it up.

https://twitter.com/PegasusWorldCup/status/946759032676724736

CJ, I certainly appreciate your personal war on American horse racing to be factual with timing, information, and all the includes wiht that, but the Pegasus ad I have to give a pass.

I have little doubt they have been working on that ad for well over 6 months, and yes, it looks horrible now.

Some breaks do need to be given.

[cj]

CJ, I certainly appreciate your personal war on American horse racing to be factual with timing, information, and all the includes wiht that, but the Pegasus ad I have to give a pass.

I have little doubt they have been working on that ad for well over 6 months, and yes, it looks horrible now.

Some breaks do need to be given.

You make a new ad, come on. It isn't that tough. Ads get pulled all the time as situations change. And six months? Come on, you could do that in a day.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

You make a new ad, come on. It isn't that tough. Ads get pulled all the time as situations change. And six months? Come on, you could do that in a day.

Why is it offensive?

Or are people just overly sensitive nowadays?

[cj]

Why is it offensive?

Or are people just overly sensitive nowadays?

Maybe you are underly sensitive? Horses on fire just not a good look right now in my opinion. Obviously you disagree. I'm sure you didn't really need me to tell you why I find it offensive, right?

[AltonKelsey]

The Ad is unfortunate. They really should pull it, if they haven't already.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Maybe you are underly sensitive? Horses on fire just not a good look right now in my opinion. Obviously you disagree. I'm sure you didn't really need me to tell you why I find it offensive, right?

Ok. They budget this ad, and then are stormed by other expenses including Hurricane Irma.

GS has given to Cali racing. Do you want them to expend more expenses that will be put on the horseplayer, which is what will more than likely happen with a better ad that 1 out of 1,000 people will see?

[cj]

Ok. They budget this ad, and then are stormed by other expenses including Hurricane Irma.

GS has given to Cali racing. Do you want them to expend more expenses that will be put on the horseplayer, which is what will more than likely happen with a better ad that 1 out of 1,000 people will see?

Come on, an eight grader could make that ad in his basement in a day.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Come on, an eight grader could make that ad in his basement in a day.

Well, I assume you are above 8th grade.

Make it and send it to them to make as their ad.

You are bitching to bitch.

[cj]

Well, I assume you are above 8th grade.

Make it and send it to them to make as their ad.

You are bitching to bitch.

Yeah, you're right. Its my fault. Gulfstream is perfect. Carry on.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Yeah, you're right. Its my fault. Gulfstream is perfect. Carry on.

Yep, that is exactly what I said.

Grow up man. Have some balls to look at a different opinion than your own.

And yes. Carry on.

[PaceAdvantage]

Come on, an eight grader could make that ad in his basement in a day.Yup

[PaceAdvantage]

Have some balls to look at a different opinion than your own.That's a good one. I'll put that in my book of totally ridiculous comebacks.

[Denny]

Unbelievably bad taste by the Stronach Group to show that add of a horse appearing to be on fire after San Luis Downs fire.

Another reason to add to my list on why I HATE GP and don't ever bet them.

How about the FINISH LINE on Turf races.

WHERE IS IT EXACTLY?

Are we supposed to guess based on some red tape on the rail?

Look at some photo-finish photos on a close finish. The RED TAPE extends BEYOND where the horses are!

[PaceAdvantage]

While complaining endlessly about the shortcomings of certain (all?) tracks is cool and all, I start thinking, after reading these things over and over again, that some of that "bitching time" could be better spent actually improving your handicapping skills. That is, if they could use improving, as I know most everyone who posts here thinks they are the best handicapper in the world...but only most of you, not all of you.

"All of you" is reserved for those posting on twitter. :lol::lol::lol:

[cj]

While complaining endlessly about the shortcomings of certain (all?) tracks is cool and all, I start thinking, after reading these things over and over again, that some of that "bitching time" could be better spent actually improving your handicapping skills. That is, if they could use improving, as I know most everyone who posts here thinks they are the best handicapper in the world...but only most of you, not all of you.

"All of you" is reserved for those posting on twitter. :lol::lol::lol:

I post while handicapping, doesn't take me long. :)

[cj]

Gulfstream has deleted the tweet apparently. Good for them.

[jay68802]

Unbelievably bad taste by the Stronach Group to show that add of a horse appearing to be on fire after San Luis Downs fire.

Another reason to add to my list on why I HATE GP and don't ever bet them.

How about the FINISH LINE on Turf races.

WHERE IS IT EXACTLY?

Are we supposed to guess based on some red tape on the rail?

Look at some photo-finish photos on a close finish. The RED TAPE extends BEYOND where the horses are!

Depends on if they are using the regular finish line or the "alternative" finish line. They have two of them.

[PaceAdvantage]

I post while handicapping, doesn't take me long. :)Yeah, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that...but you knew that...:headbanger:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

That's a good one. I'll put that in my book of totally ridiculous comebacks.

I'll take that as a compliment. :headbanger:

[Denny]

The "IMAGINARY" Finish Line.

When they show head-on replays afterwards they sometimes stop it BEFORE they even reach the red tape.

Plus the camera lines up with the inside rail. You get an angle view. The farther away the rails are from the inside, the worse the angle.

GP is a 2nd, no make that 3rd class operation masquerading as 1st.

[Afleet]

The "IMAGINARY" Finish Line.

When they show head-on replays afterwards they sometimes stop it BEFORE they even reach the red tape.

Plus the camera lines up with the inside rail. You get an angle view. The farther away the rails are from the inside, the worse the angle.

GP is a 2nd, no make that 3rd class operation masquerading as 1st.

Do what I do-don't play it

[Tom]

Depends on if they are using the regular finish line or the "alternative" finish line. They have two of them.

Plan B? :pound::pound:

[jay68802]

Plan B? :pound::pound:

Just in case the first one does not work.:)

[alhattab]

Depends on if they are using the regular finish line or the "alternative" finish line. They have two of them.

They use the alt finish only for 1 1/16 races on dirt I believe.

For the grass races I've always assumed the end of the red tape but based Denny's post will take another look while watching today

[thespaah]

I read the entire thread.
One question comes to mind.
What useful purpose is served by Gulfstream management fudging the run up distance, incorrectly reporting the run up or not reporting it at all?
Another question.
What useful purpose is served by mistiming of races?
And last one. Instead of caving to these prima donna horsemen, why does the racing secretary just not "yes them to death" and not card the distance?
What are they going to do? Boycott the entry box? Call Brookledge and have them haul off their horses to......Uh oh.....Where?

[cj]

I read the entire thread.
One question comes to mind.
What useful purpose is served by Gulfstream management fudging the run up distance, incorrectly reporting the run up or not reporting it at all?
Another question.
What useful purpose is served by mistiming of races?
And last one. Instead of caving to these prima donna horsemen, why does the racing secretary just not "yes them to death" and not card the distance?
What are they going to do? Boycott the entry box? Call Brookledge and have them haul off their horses to......Uh oh.....Where?

My theory is there are much bigger problems with the timing of races than we know about. They figure if the times are going to be wrong, lets make sure nobody can check them easily and pretend everything is fine.

[thespaah]

My theory is there are much bigger problems with the timing of races than we know about. They figure if the times are going to be wrong, lets make sure nobody can check them easily and pretend everything is fine.

Which brings me back to my question. For what possible purpose?
Or am I just so cynical, the I cannot stop myself from believing Gulfstream management has an ulterior motive?

[jay68802]

Since we are going to give theories about this subject, here is mine.

Horse racing is afraid of technology. Track managers and horsemen think accurate information will ruin the sport. Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.

[cj]

Since we are going to give theories about this subject, here is mine.

Horse racing is afraid of technology. Track managers and horsemen think accurate information will ruin the sport. Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.

Smaller fields and too many restricted races are the biggest reason prices have dropped IMO.

[JustRalph]

It’s simple. They save 2 salaries by not giving a shit about timing. They would probably have to hire 2 people to fix it and then keep things up.

[jay68802]

Smaller fields and too many restricted races are the biggest reason prices have dropped IMO.

True, But the fact remains that the track at Gulfstream does not move. And the ability to run races at a specific distance with a run up of x ft is easy to do. And it follows that timing of those same races is just as easy. If this was a one time thing then, well, let it go. But its not, it has been a problem that has been happening for years and it makes people wonder why.

[thespaah]

Smaller fields and too many restricted races are the biggest reason prices have dropped IMO.

Racing secretaries are spineless when dealing with the horsemen.
They write races to suit the demands of the trainers. The horsemen want small fields.
That is purely my opinion.

[Fager Fan]

Since we are going to give theories about this subject, here is mine.

Horse racing is afraid of technology. Track managers and horsemen think accurate information will ruin the sport. Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.

That's what handicappers should worry about. Trainers and owners only care that they win the race. It's a big leap to think that they want to screw up the timing to screw up speed figures to make gamblers happy.

[Fager Fan]

Racing secretaries are spineless when dealing with the horsemen.
They write races to suit the demands of the trainers. The horsemen want small fields.
That is purely my opinion.

Pure silliness. Trainers want races to go. You really think they somehow are manipulating the field sizes to be small? I'd love to hear how you figure they're pulling that off.

[jay68802]

That's what handicappers should worry about. Trainers and owners only care that they win the race.

You are right they want to win races. Some of them don't care how they do it, either. Danny Robertson, a clocker, was bribed by trainers to report slower work out times on their horses. Why? They wanted higher win mutual on their bet.


It's a big leap to think that they want to screw up the timing to screw up speed figures to make gamblers happy.

Then why not have accurate timing and distances? Why should it be off in some cases and just plain false in others. Whats the reason?

[Fager Fan]

Then why not have accurate timing and distances? Why should it be off in some cases and just plain false in others. Whats the reason?

I long ago learned to not take work times as gospel. I know of too many instances of inaccuracies, and not usually for nefarious purposes. And yes, there are known times where clockers weren't on thee up and up, including wanting to keep info to themselves for betting purposes.

I have no idea what the problems are with timing at GP. I assume someone has asked, so what was the answer? CJ could certainly call and ask. But I'm sure they're not deliberately messing up the times to mess up speed figures to supposedly raise prices on horses and make handicappers happy. Clearly they're not happy, right?

Though it's a good point that the wealth of info at handicappers' fingertips have driven down prices.

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/947160670277025792





Let's Take Action

https://www.classaction.org/free-case-evaluation

If you've been harmed by a company's negligence or misconduct, you may have the right to sue for your losses. At ClassAction.org, we help people take action.

https://twitter.com/LouisvilleWill/status/947176950174552065

[Afleet]

Pure silliness. Trainers want races to go. You really think they somehow are manipulating the field sizes to be small? I'd love to hear how you figure they're pulling that off.

trainer enters multiple horses to get the race to go(fill) then scratch the one's he/she never planned on running in the first place. Happens all the time

[Fager Fan]

https://twitter.com/LouisvilleWill/status/947176950174552065

Sure, get rich scheme for the lawyer.

It's too bad you don't put your collective power to better use. You're going to end hard-pressed to prove damages on this one. Why not go after drugs? It's far more easily proven how someone is damaged.

It's hard to take you seriously when you throw out class action suit both over this and also when it never happens.

[Andy Asaro]

Sure, get rich scheme for the lawyer.

It's too bad you don't put your collective power to better use. You're going to end hard-pressed to prove damages on this one. Why not go after drugs? It's far more easily proven how someone is damaged.

It's hard to take you seriously when you throw out class action suit both over this and also when it never happens.

What's your solution to the chronic timing problems and having false times show up in the PP's we pay for?

[Fager Fan]

What's your solution to the chronic timing problems and having false times show up in the PP's we pay for?

Really?

Don't bet Gulfstream if it's a real issue for you.

[lamboguy]

What's your solution to the chronic timing problems and having false times show up in the PP's we pay for?here is a very simple solution, stop buying the racing form and get off your ass and go to the track and time your own horses.

these fake times are nothing new in this game, especially in Florida

[Fager Fan]

trainer enters multiple horses to get the race to go(fill) then scratch the one's he/she never planned on running in the first place. Happens all the time

That's the opposite from manipulating for the purpose of having a small field, as you admit it's done to try to get a small field larger for the purpose of having it go.

[Andy Asaro]

Really?

Don't bet Gulfstream if it's a real issue for you.

Poor timing happens everywhere but Gulfstream is the worst.

And in other words you don't have a solution. It goes directly to the integrity of the game and making sure the PP's people pay for and use have the most accurate data possible.

[Andy Asaro]

here is a very simple solution, stop buying the racing form and get off your ass and go to the track and time your own horses.

these fake times are nothing new in this game, especially in Florida

Get off my ass and go to Gulfstream instead of expecting accurate data in the past performances I buy? I live in San Diego for one...........

[Denny]

It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

[Denny]

Not to be misunderstood. I don't mean figures themselves have ruined things.

I meant to say the widespread AVAILABILITY of good figures at little to no cost has taken away their advantage and it's only getting worse.

That City of Light horse last week is good example. Horse should have been 15-1 or more based on old handicapping. Instead he wins at 7-1.

[Tom]

Get off my ass and go to Gulfstream instead of expecting accurate data in the past performances I buy? I live in San Diego for one...........

Can you pick me up on your way?
I live in NY.:p

[Redboard]

It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Good point. On the other hand, since there's very little value to be had anymore (from honestly analyzing the past performances) why not just play the tote and let everyone else do the handicapping for you? In the past few months I started doing this and have found myself doing better than digging all night to find that 12-1 who ends up going off at 7/2.

Of course there are the last-second bets that tend to screw everything up.

[cj]

https://twitter.com/TimeformUSfigs/status/948259209086492672https://twitter.com/TimeformUSfigs/status/948260432049049601

[AltonKelsey]

Apparently, since speed figs , pace, trip notes have ruined the game, everyone complaining was winning before this happened.

Congrats.

[dilanesp]

Apparently, since speed figs , pace, trip notes have ruined the game, everyone complaining was winning before this happened.

Congrats.

Really!

Just like nobody got killed in the stock market in the days before securities laws required prospectuses and annual reports.

[thaskalos]

Really!

Just like nobody got killed in the stock market in the days before securities laws required prospectuses and annual reports.

I love it whenever the stock market crashes. I tell all my friends that I lost my money "in the market"...and I get real SYMPATHY! When they see me losing at gambling, not only do I get no "sympathy"...but they point an accusing finger at me, while warning their kids not to "turn out like me".

I guess it isn't whether you lose or not that's important. It's whether or not you lose in a "respectable manner". :)

[Denny]

Alton,
I was killing the game once with my own figures. Those days are long gone.

Now i need to use patience - and figures alone aren't enough anymore.
Yet, you never quite know when an opportunity will present itself.

For example:
Yesterday, last night, there was a P5 carryover at Pompano Park that I handicapped. In a race there was a solid Single at 2-1 ML. Figured he'd be even-money.
When the race came up, couldn't believe the horse was totally overlooked at 5-1 and I made a nice win bet.
I didn't hit the P5 (missed another race) but collected a $12.20 mutuel and a $27.20 exacta.
These things just don't come up that often.

[Valuist]

It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Physicality may be the last bastion.

I'm also not convinced there's no benefit to trip handicapping, as it is so subjective.

[thaskalos]

It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Bowling is a lot of fun. :)

[cj]

Bowling is a lot of fun. :)


They've made it too easy. Quit a decade ago and never looked back.

[thaskalos]

They've made it too easy. Quit a decade ago and never looked back.

I agree...that's why I only use an old, cheap bowling ball with a polyester coverstock. I want the 200-game to MEAN something. :ThmbUp:

[GMB@BP]

Seems timing doesnt seem to be a big deal as GP had the biggest gains year over last of any track in the country.

the things that seem to matter to us just do not resonate with the player the tracks target.

[cj]

Seems timing doesnt seem to be a big deal as GP had the biggest gains year over last of any track in the country.

the things that seem to matter to us just do not resonate with the player the tracks target.

Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

[GMB@BP]

Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

ok, thanks for that tid bit. makes a lot more sense.

[Fager Fan]

Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

Who are they selling their signal to dirt cheap? And how is it supposedly phony?

And have you called and discussed the problems? What is their explanation?

[cj]

Who are they selling their signal to dirt cheap? And how is it supposedly phony?

And have you called and discussed the problems? What is their explanation?

I already answered the first one. You expect me to print a list of names? LOL. That is all you are getting from me. I've never been one to make stuff up. Believe it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

It is phony because they are making a lot less on their "handle" than other tracks. Plenty others would be up if they had a bargain basement sale on bets.

Yes, I've had discussions with Tim Ritvo and PJ Campo in the past. They proved fruitless. The explanation from Gulfstream is they really don't understand and they really don't care. I can only beat my head against the wall so long.

They don't really care for me much because I've caught them on mistiming the Pegasus and also placing the gate in the wrong place for the Ladies' Turf Sprint won by Lady Shipman a few years ago. I even gave them the courtesy of telling them first only to be blown off and told I was wrong both times initially---I wasn't.

[cj]

https://timeformusblog.com/2016/02/09/the-curious-case-of-the-ladies-turf-sprint-stakes-at-gulfstream-park/

https://timeformusblog.com/2017/01/30/pegasus-world-cup-12-million-race-questionable-timing/

[VigorsTheGrey]

I agree...that's why I only use an old, cheap bowling ball with a polyester coverstock. I want the 200-game to MEAN something. :ThmbUp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHAGbD3dlhE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AClQyr2koxc

[AskinHaskin]

If only racing society had known in 1955 that to call the distance of the San Juan Capistrano "about" 1 3/4 Miles equated to "another middle finger to bettors".

One wonders why nobody has caught on to same until last week on Pace Advantage.




Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.


That's a classic interpretation of the reality right beneath your collective eyes.


Get off my ass...........


That'll be the day

[Fager Fan]

I already answered the first one. You expect me to print a list of names? LOL. That is all you are getting from me. I've never been one to make stuff up. Believe it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

Yes, I do. Why not? It's well known that rebate shops are sold the signal at a far lower cost. That doesn't make the handle coming from them "phony."

It is phony because they are making a lot less on their "handle" than other tracks. Plenty others would be up if they had a bargain basement sale on bets.

So what? All the tracks have special rates for rebate shops, other tracks, non-profits, etc, so I guess they all have phony handle.

Yes, I've had discussions with Tim Ritvo and PJ Campo in the past. They proved fruitless. The explanation from Gulfstream is they really don't understand and they really don't care. I can only beat my head against the wall so long.

Well, that's enlightening. Why not just report their reasons instead your opinion of their reasons?

[cj]

Yes, I do. Why not? It's well known that rebate shops are sold the signal at a far lower cost. That doesn't make the handle coming from them "phony."



So what? All the tracks have special rates for rebate shops, other tracks, non-profits, etc, so I guess they all have phony handle.



Well, that's enlightening. Why not just report their reasons instead your opinion of their reasons?

Sorry, I'm just not inclined to share a lot of info with some anonymous person on the internet. Crazy I know but that's just me. I gave the answers I wanted to give.

Obviously you missed my point about the pricing. It isn't just a special rate. It is a bargain basement rate. There is a difference. I didn't realize I had to spell it out for you.

Moving on.

[jay68802]

If only racing society had known in 1955 that to call the distance of the San Juan Capistrano "about" 1 3/4 Miles equated to "another middle finger to bettors".

One wonders why nobody has caught on to same until last week on Pace Advantage.







That's a classic interpretation of the reality right beneath your collective eyes.


About distances and inaccurate timing have been issues for speed handicappers for as long as I can remember. The failure of tracks to correct the problems is a mystery. I put forward a theory as to why, and if you can enlighten every one as to the answere, I would love to here it. Or if you want, explain it to me over a game of poker. I can tell you before hand that the deck will have "about" 52 cards in it. And that, my friend, is slightly more that the deck you are dealing with.

[cj]

If only racing society had known in 1955 that to call the distance of the San Juan Capistrano "about" 1 3/4 Miles equated to "another middle finger to bettors".

One wonders why nobody has caught on to same until last week on Pace Advantage.







That's a classic interpretation of the reality right beneath your collective eyes.





That'll be the day

You really should try to keep up. Some tracks run about distances out of necessity. That isn't what is happening at Gulfstream, and in fact it isn't even true. The times given for the races are for exactly 7.5f races. They are misrepresenting the distance of the races and they are misrepresenting the run up. Neither of these things should be mysterious, be it 1955 or 2018.

[dilanesp]

If only racing society had known in 1955 that to call the distance of the San Juan Capistrano "about" 1 3/4 Miles equated to "another middle finger to bettors".

Bad analogy. The San Juan is a once a year race on a unique course. It really, honestly doesn't matter if cj gets an accurate figure for it.

Quite a bit different than mucking around with a common distance.

[linrom1]

Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

Just what I expected. Their pools never made sense to me, I often thought how could they generate pools of $800-$900k when they ran their crappy $20-30k claimer races and Belmont could only get about $500k when they ran graded stake races?

They let their big bettors feed on little guys and that's what RITVO said.

[Tom]

Forget about Gulfstream - the fastest horse in the world just ran a :19 opening quarter at Tampa! :eek:

[jay68802]

Forget about Gulfstream - the fastest horse in the world just ran a :19 opening quarter at Tampa! :eek:

Ran so fast the camera could not keep up.:lol:

[Fager Fan]

Sorry, I'm just not inclined to share a lot of info with some anonymous person on the internet. Crazy I know but that's just me. I gave the answers I wanted to give.

Obviously you missed my point about the pricing. It isn't just a special rate. It is a bargain basement rate. There is a difference. I didn't realize I had to spell it out for you.

Moving on.

I call BS on you. The rates for the rebate shops are already bargain basement, and every track has those, but here you are, making up nonsense again, this time about "fake handle."

The handle is the handle, and if they want to give their signal away for free every day, all day, to everyone, it's still the handle. And frankly, none of your business as far as it making sense to their business.

[cj]

I call BS on you. The rates for the rebate shops are already bargain basement, and every track has those, but here you are, making up nonsense again, this time about "fake handle."

The handle is the handle, and if they want to give their signal away for free every day, all day, to everyone, it's still the handle. And frankly, none of your business as far as it making sense to their business.

Whatever dude. You're wrong. And none of my business? :lol::lol::lol: I've never made up anything. I have no history of that and you pretending I do is bullshit.

Keep on being anonymous Gulfstream employee. Say hi to PJ for me. Tell him to shoot for the moon and make the Pegasus a billion dollar race next year. If you're going to lie, make it a big one!

[Fager Fan]

Whatever dude. You're wrong. And none of my business? :lol::lol::lol:

Keep on being anonymous Gulfstream employee. Say hi to PJ for me. Tell him to shoot for the moon and make the Pegasus a billion dollar race next year. If you're going to lie, make it a big one!

What's the rate, CJ? Let's see how much lower it is than CA and the rebate shops.

[Fager Fan]

Oh, and now you're giving me an infraction for challenging you? lol. Just shows your true colors.

[Fager Fan]

Oh, and now you're giving me an infraction for challenging you? lol. Just shows your true colors.

And now another infraction for posting about you giving me an infraction.

What a child. Why don't you answer the question. What's the rate, CJ?

[cj]

Oh, and now you're giving me an infraction for challenging you? lol. Just shows your true colors.

Nope, was for insulting me.as I made clear in the message. The second for doing the same via PM.

[cj]

And now another infraction for posting about you giving me an infraction.

What a child. Why don't you answer the question. What's the rate, CJ?

I owe you nothing, particularly when you act like a fool.

[Fager Fan]

Nope, was for insulting me.as I made clear in the message. The second for doing the same via PM.

My insult was "I call BS." So tell me, CJ, do you give demerits to everyone who says similar here, or just when someone challenges you and ticks you off?

You say you don't allow unverified info here. I've seen you reprimand people and delete posts. Yet you posted unverified info, then refused to give any sort of verification when asked. Did you give yourself any demerits or delete your own post?

You won't answer a very simple question to explain more about what you mean by "fake handle" and some group of players getting a "bargain basement discount." How so? Through a rebate shop, which all tracks bargain with? Is it lower than the rebate shops? If so, what is it? And why do you call GP's handle "fake" when all would be fake except for CA since they all give bargain basement rates to the rebate shops?

[jocko699]

My insult was "I call BS." So tell me, CJ, do you give demerits to everyone who says similar here, or just when someone challenges you and ticks you off?

You say you don't allow unverified info here. I've seen you reprimand people and delete posts. Yet you posted unverified info, then refused to give any sort of verification when asked. Did you give yourself any demerits or delete your own post?

You won't answer a very simple question to explain more about what you mean by "fake handle" and some group of players getting a "bargain basement discount." How so? Through a rebate shop, which all tracks bargain with? Is it lower than the rebate shops? If so, what is it? And why do you call GP's handle "fake" when all would be fake except for CA since they all give bargain basement rates to the rebate shops?

Maybe other people give you demerits also.

[jocko699]

Maybe other people give you demerits also.

Thanks for giving me demerits although I did not give you any. I was just stating a fact.

[Fager Fan]

Thanks for giving me demerits although I did not give you any. I was just stating a fact.

Who are you talking to?

The demerits I'm talking about are the "official" demerits that come in our mailboxes from CJ that count towards banning a person from the site.

I'm not talking about the ranking thing over there by our names, and I didn't give you any "demerit" over there.

[jocko699]

Who are you talking to?

The demerits I'm talking about are the "official" demerits that come in our mailboxes from CJ that count towards banning a person from the site.

I'm not talking about the ranking thing over there by our names, and I didn't give you any "demerit" over there.

I was referring to the idiot who did.

[cj]

My insult was "I call BS." So tell me, CJ, do you give demerits to everyone who says similar here, or just when someone challenges you and ticks you off?

You say you don't allow unverified info here. I've seen you reprimand people and delete posts. Yet you posted unverified info, then refused to give any sort of verification when asked. Did you give yourself any demerits or delete your own post?

You won't answer a very simple question to explain more about what you mean by "fake handle" and some group of players getting a "bargain basement discount." How so? Through a rebate shop, which all tracks bargain with? Is it lower than the rebate shops? If so, what is it? And why do you call GP's handle "fake" when all would be fake except for CA since they all give bargain basement rates to the rebate shops?

That wasn't the insult. You said I'm lying again, implying not only that I am here and have before. That isn't true and was uncalled for in my opinion. I've been on this board a long time and have never been accused of making stuff up.

I answered your questions the first time. I guess they weren't good enough for you. Too bad, it is all I'm going to say. But you just go on and on and on. I'm under no obligation to answer an anonymous internet poster. If PA thinks I posted something out of line, he'll tell me and that is fine. You? No chance.

[PaceAdvantage]

My insult was "I call BS."I would have given you a "demerit" also. cj doesn't make shit up. And everyone knows who he is, so why in the world WOULD he make things up?

That WAS an idiotic move on your part. Something anonymous posters are want to do...

[Fager Fan]

I would have given you a "demerit" also. cj doesn't make shit up. And everyone knows who he is, so why in the world WOULD he make things up?

That WAS an idiotic move on your part. Something anonymous posters are want to do...

Oh, put a sock in it. And remember you, Mr. PA, called me idiotic.

He most certainly DID make up or lie or whatever one wants to call it when he says it's a "fake" handle. It isn't "fake" handle to take rebate shop handle or otherwise give a discounted signal. It also isn't "fake" handle if Stronach has set up his own rebate shop to undercut CD's and other rebate shops. If CJ wants to demonstrate how it's "fake" then he could do so, but instead leaves an unverified and frankly illogical claim out there, something you don't allow of others.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry, my bad. It's "wont to do" not want to do...:lol:

Surprised some of the know it alls on here were slow to call me out on that one.

[dilanesp]

Oh, put a sock in it. And remember you, Mr. PA, called me idiotic.

He most certainly DID make up or lie or whatever one wants to call it when he says it's a "fake" handle. It isn't "fake" handle to take rebate shop handle or otherwise give a discounted signal. It also isn't "fake" handle if Stronach has set up his own rebate shop to undercut CD's and other rebate shops. If CJ wants to demonstrate how it's "fake" then he could do so, but instead leaves an unverified and frankly illogical claim out there, something you don't allow of others.

Fager, this is purely a matter of characterization. There's nothing wrong with arguing that additional handle obtained by hook or by crook isn't fake. CJ disagrees with that opinion. Neither opinion is a "lie".

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Well this made for an interesting read on a snowy morning here in the northeast.

"Fake" or "inflated", $2 wagered on a race is still $2 wagered on a race and at its most basic level, handle.

Top line its all the same, bottom line is a different story.

A discussion of margins would be more fruitful, but that information is not exactly readily available. A comparison of net revenue margins on handle across race tracks/companies and their respective "blend" would shine some light on things. Not all rebates are created equal and a lot depends on their client mix.

[linrom1]

Well this made for an interesting read on a snowy morning here in the northeast.

"Fake" or "inflated", $2 wagered on a race is still $2 wagered on a race and at its most basic level, handle.

Top line its all the same, bottom line is a different story.

A discussion of margins would be more fruitful, but that information is not exactly readily available. A comparison of net revenue margins on handle across race tracks/companies and their respective "blend" would shine some light on things. Not all rebates are created equal and a lot depends on their client mix.

If additional handle does not contribute to purses paid to horsemen than it's "phoney." GP was able to dramatically increase its handle , yet its purse structure has not increased much; therefore, its either bogus or Stronach interests are somehow able to befool horsemen.

[Tom]

The only statistic I care about is how much do I get paid.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

If additional handle does not contribute to purses paid to horsemen than it's "phoney." GP was able to dramatically increase its handle , yet its purse structure has not increased much; therefore, its either bogus or Stronach interests are somehow able to befool horsemen.

Any idea of what their purse account looks like? I have no idea, but I would imagine they could have been in an overpayment situation prior to the increase in hande.

Are they running more races compared to before? Stakes boosted? The purse money is going to purses, how it is distributed I dont know since I do not follow Florida.

Comparing handle to how the purse money is distributed is a bit much. Handle is a wager. If it is a person, robot, or my dog Charlie on his Ipad placing the bet, it doesnt matter. Trying to say it is phoney or fake because the margins are low or you dont see where the purse money is a little off.

[cj]

Any idea of what their purse account looks like? I have no idea, but I would imagine they could have been in an overpayment situation prior to the increase in hande.

Are they running more races compared to before? Stakes boosted? The purse money is going to purses, how it is distributed I dont know since I do not follow Florida.

Comparing handle to how the purse money is distributed is a bit much. Handle is a wager. If it is a person, robot, or my dog Charlie on his Ipad placing the bet, it doesnt matter. Trying to say it is phoney or fake because the margins are low or you dont see where the purse money is a little off.

Maybe a little off, but it was to make a point. It was stated Gulfstream is up more than everyone else is so bettors must not care about their shenanigans. Like most blanket statements in racing, this doesn't tell the whole story. If other tracks were using the same pricing model as Gulfstream, I'm sure their handle would be up as well. But there bottom line would not be. If pushed to the extreme, a track could take bets and knowingly LOSE money on the bets and still report this is handle.

So my point was saying handle is up, or good, by itself doesn't mean much at all. That is why I said it is phony or fake or whatever word I used. Just like the purse of the Pegasus is fake. You have to dig a little deeper than just reading press releases. I'm not sure why people are anxious to defend a track that is currently outright lying about the distance of its races, but whatever. That is horseplayers for you.

[Denny]

Has anybody come across a head-on replay of the jockey falling and costing someone the Rainbow 6.

I still would like to see what made the horse veer ever so sharply. He'd already been struck several times before without reacting.

[Denny]

The Rainbow is now over 1.1 million.

There's something more to this story and I think Gulf is hiding it by not showing the complete head-on replay to the public.

But, maybe that's just me thinking that.

[cj]

Has anybody come across a head-on replay of the jockey falling and costing someone the Rainbow 6.

I still would like to see what made the horse veer ever so sharply. He'd already been struck several times before without reacting.

I've seen it. It was the whip. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but in this case there's nothing here unless you think the horse was also in on it.

[MutuelClerk]

The Rainbow is now over 1.1 million.

There's something more to this story and I think Gulf is hiding it by not showing the complete head-on replay to the public.

But, maybe that's just me thinking that.

We had a guy at our track yesterday play all/all/all/all/all/all in the Rainbow. Think it was 14,800. Tough day at the track when you hit the P6 and lose 10k.

[tophatmert]

I've seen it. It was the whip. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but in this case there's nothing here unless you think the horse was also in on it.

I don't know CJ the horse isn't talking I assume he has lawyered up..

[jdhanover]

I've seen it. It was the whip. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but in this case there's nothing here unless you think the horse was also in on it.

Was the whip and then a bad step by the horse. I had the eventual winner so I was 'happy' (once I heard there were no injuries involved). But you can see clearly the horse takes a strange step to the side. At that speed, the jockey gets thrown - he is not expecting that and it is too fast/sudden to compensate. Have also seen it before.

A jockey would never purposefully fall off with a dozen horses coming behind him...might mean he dies (kick to the head etc which has happened).

Sometimes i think we forget they are horses not machines.

[Denny]

No jock would jump off like that. I wasn't trying to imply he did.
I was just wondering if something else spooked the horse.
Thanks.

He was actually lucky to be so far ahead when he fell. The others may have had a little more time to react. (Though he still did hurt.)

Not like what happened to Mike Venezia. He went off right in front of and next to Robbie's horse and there was no chance to avoid him.
I was watching with my binoculars from the 2nd floor of the grandstand and can still see it now in my mind.

[dilanesp]

Was the whip and then a bad step by the horse. I had the eventual winner so I was 'happy' (once I heard there were no injuries involved). But you can see clearly the horse takes a strange step to the side. At that speed, the jockey gets thrown - he is not expecting that and it is too fast/sudden to compensate. Have also seen it before.

A jockey would never purposefully fall off with a dozen horses coming behind him...might mean he dies (kick to the head etc which has happened).

Sometimes i think we forget they are horses not machines.

He actually tried to stay on by holding onto the horse's neck. 30 years ago a Northern California jockey named Nate Hubbard won a race by doing that.

[dilanesp]

No jock would jump off like that. I wasn't trying to imply he did.
I was just wondering if something else spooked the horse.
Thanks.

He was actually lucky to be so far ahead when he fell. The others may have had a little more time to react. (Though he still did hurt.)

Not like what happened to Mike Venezia. He went off right in front of and next to Robbie's horse and there was no chance to avoid him.
I was watching with my binoculars from the 2nd floor of the grandstand and can still see it now in my mind.

For some reason I still remember the names of the two horses involved in that: Drums in the Night and Mister Walter K.

[cj]

Was the whip and then a bad step by the horse. I had the eventual winner so I was 'happy' (once I heard there were no injuries involved). But you can see clearly the horse takes a strange step to the side. At that speed, the jockey gets thrown - he is not expecting that and it is too fast/sudden to compensate. Have also seen it before.

A jockey would never purposefully fall off with a dozen horses coming behind him...might mean he dies (kick to the head etc which has happened).

Sometimes i think we forget they are horses not machines.

The reaction the whip was immediate. Whether the sudden move caused the rider to lose it or the horse also took a bad step I'm not sure.

[ultracapper]

We had a guy at our track yesterday play all/all/all/all/all/all in the Rainbow. Think it was 14,800. Tough day at the track when you hit the P6 and lose 10k.

Knowing the way the RB6 is designed to pay, you gotta figure more often than not an "all" bet isn't going to get it done.

[Fager Fan]

Oh, now he's deleting my posts and giving me another demerit, and demanding I post under my real name.

You're something else, CJ.

[Fager Fan]

If additional handle does not contribute to purses paid to horsemen than it's "phoney." GP was able to dramatically increase its handle , yet its purse structure has not increased much; therefore, its either bogus or Stronach interests are somehow able to befool horsemen.

If Cj doesn't delete this message again, I'll repeat that all these contracts are blessed by the horsemen, so whatever he's talking about can't be much different than rebate shop pricing. Why he's jumping all over GP for rebate pricing when many including all the big tracks other than CA do it, I don't know. But it's "real" handle however it's sliced.

[cj]

Oh, now he's deleting my posts and giving me another demerit, and demanding I post under my real name.

You're something else, CJ.

I didn't demand anything, another falsehood.

Here is what I said:

Not playing that game. Sorry. Put a name on your account and maybe we'll talk.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Cj doesn't delete this message again, I'll repeat that all these contracts are blessed by the horsemen, so whatever he's talking about can't be much different than rebate shop pricing. Why he's jumping all over GP for rebate pricing when many including all the big tracks other than CA do it, I don't know. But it's "real" handle however it's sliced."Whatever he's talking about" = "You don't understand it, so it must be false."

Not good math.

[Fager Fan]

"Whatever he's talking about" = "You don't understand it, so it must be false."

Not good math.

That wasn't the math. It was not being able to imagine a scenario where handle is "fake" because some of it is derived from selling the signal at a "bargain basement rate", the only bit of information CJ gave to bolster his claim that it's fake. That is already well known to being done through rebate shops, and no one has ever proposed that this makes the handle of many tracks, not just GP, fake.

It is highly frustrating to know how bad these contracts are for the host tracks and racing, but that's a nationwide problem outside of CA who got their legislature to cap it at 5%, and it doesn't make any of the handle fake or smoke and mirrors or any other perjorative. It just makes them horrible deals for the host tracks and racing.

[cj]

That wasn't the math. It was not being able to imagine a scenario where handle is "fake" because some of it is derived from selling the signal at a "bargain basement rate", the only bit of information CJ gave to bolster his claim that it's fake. That is already well known to being done through rebate shops, and no one has ever proposed that this makes the handle of many tracks, not just GP, fake.

It is highly frustrating to know how bad these contracts are for the host tracks and racing, but that's a nationwide problem outside of CA who got their legislature to cap it at 5%, and it doesn't make any of the handle fake or smoke and mirrors or any other perjorative. It just makes them horrible deals for the host tracks and racing.

Perhaps I could have worded it better. The handle is the handle, but the reporting that handle increases mean business is great and profits are up is simply false.

If I offered rebates that matched takeout, I'd lose money, for example. But handle would certainly be up by a lot. Its a false positive.

[Fager Fan]

Perhaps I could have worded it better. The handle is the handle, but the reporting that handle increases mean business is great and profits are up is simply false.

If I offered rebates that matched takeout, I'd lose money, for example. But handle would certainly be up by a lot. Its a false positive.


Unfortunately the sport is saturated with getting tiny slivers of the pie now. I don't understand why they can't get together and reverse the bad decisions made at the start of the ADW era, but they don't. So they keep fighting for the scraps.

I appreciate the discussion we've had via PM. Peace.