Betting with an Edge --- Mike Maloney

[cj]

https://shop.drf.com/cmsstatic/BettingwithanEdge_618x252.png


https://shop.drf.com/thoroughbred-wagering

Mike talks about it here:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/drf-players-podcast-november-14-2017

I've read some of this already. I think even Gus will like it!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Bought it! Thanks for the tip CJ.:ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

https://shop.drf.com/cmsstatic/BettingwithanEdge_618x252.png


https://shop.drf.com/thoroughbred-wagering

Mike talks about it here:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/drf-players-podcast-november-14-2017

I've read some of this already. I think even Gus will like it!

I will supply a thorough book-review as soon as I read it. :)

[detective]

Hi, Any one that has the book can you tell me if there is any good handicapping methods or money management or is the book just babble about this and that...Thanks

[cj]

Hi, Any one that has the book can you tell me if there is any good handicapping methods or money management or is the book just babble about this and that...Thanks

Not sure why it would be just babble about this and that, but I'm sure thask will give an honest assessment.

[FakeNameChanged]

Hi, Any one that has the book can you tell me if there is any good handicapping methods or money management or is the book just babble about this and that...Thanks
Listening to the above podcast gives some insights. Sounds like one chapter on the mentality needed to be pro level gambler. And how to address that with prospective spouse and gf or bf. Pretty sure I've not seen that before.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Hi, Any one that has the book can you tell me if there is any good handicapping methods or money management or is the book just babble about this and that...Thanks

Forget yet another handicapping the races book. We need more "playing the game" in real life and real time books.

[thaskalos]

The problem with our game is that the handicapping books don't turn much of a profit for their authors these days...and the monetary incentive simply isn't there for the emergence of a truly "revolutionary" handicapping work. Nor are the game's mutuel pools large enough to withstand the radical change that a truly "groundbreaking" handicapping book would bring about.

The handicapping books that we read state at the outset the "disclaimer" that there are no "secrets" to the handicapping process of the expert player...but that simply isn't the case. OF COURSE there are "handicapping secrets" that the expert players use! But these handicapping insights must remain secrets...because the expert players can make much more money by using them at the betting windows, than by writing about them.

[VigorsTheGrey]

The problem with our game is that the handicapping books don't turn much of a profit for their authors these days...and the monetary incentive simply isn't there for the emergence of a truly "revolutionary" handicapping work. Nor are the game's mutuel pools large enough to withstand the radical change that a truly "groundbreaking" handicapping book would bring about.

The handicapping books that we read state at the outset the "disclaimer" that there are no "secrets" to the handicapping process of the expert player...but that simply isn't the case. OF COURSE there are "handicapping secrets" that the expert players use! But these handicapping insights must remain secrets...because the expert players can make much more money by using them at the betting windows, than by writing about them.

I don't like to be cynical, but some deeply held feeling I have informs me that even the so called experts are subjected to the internal shenanigans in this sport....a sport where humans train and control the movements of horses and not the other way around...the best horse often does not win...the experts here are clearly in league with the insiders and the art of skilled handicapping is only one part of the theatrical scenery and often not the decisive one...the self- interested nature of human beings, being what it is...

[AndyC]

I don't like to be cynical, but some deeply held feeling I have informs me that even the so called experts are subjected to the internal shenanigans in this sport....a sport where humans train and control the movements of horses and not the other way around...the best horse often does not win...the experts here are clearly in league with the insiders and the art of skilled handicapping is only one part of the theatrical scenery and often not the decisive one...the self- interested nature of human beings, being what it is...

That's why handicapping the humans is every bit as important as handicapping the horses.

[cj]

That's why handicapping the humans is every bit as important as handicapping the horses.

Yep, and in some races even more important.

[JustRalph]

That's why handicapping the humans is every bit as important as handicapping the horses.

One of my greatest weaknesses when I was playing every day. And I hated it

[VigorsTheGrey]

Yep, and in some races even more important.

Which of course begs the question of how exactly that is done.
Sometimes, one can pick up stuff in the walking ring as trainers interact with jockey...I saw a video of Bob Baffert in the walking ring on Breeder Cup race...clearly he favored Collected over Arrogate as he was legging Martin Garcia up...what others ways can we handicap the trainers....?

Sometimes the presence of an entry may signal a higher intent to win with at least one of the runners...a friend of mine said that if you see connections all dressed up, (like they are ready to pose for pictures) that is a good sign, what have you noticed...?

[thaskalos]

Which of course begs the question of how exactly that is done.
Sometimes, one can pick up stuff in the walking ring as trainers interact with jockey...I saw a video of Bob Baffert in the walking ring on Breeder Cup race...clearly he favored Collected over Arrogate as he was legging Martin Garcia up...what others ways can we handicap the trainers....?

Sometimes the presence of an entry may signal a higher intent to win with at least one of the runners...a friend of mine said that if you see connections all dressed up, (like they are ready to pose for pictures) that is a good sign, what have you noticed...?

A friend of mine learned how to read lips...so he could decipher the conversations between the trainers and the jockeys in the paddock.

[VigorsTheGrey]

A friend of mine learned how to read lips...so he could decipher the conversations between the trainers and the jockeys in the paddock.

If I didn't know you better Gus I would think you are putting me on...I can only imagine... "Now remember, break real slow, then go to the front real hard and open up 3 or 4 right away, take him wide and do only enough to get third...Clem and I are singled to his horse only...":D

[AndyC]

Which of course begs the question of how exactly that is done.
Sometimes, one can pick up stuff in the walking ring as trainers interact with jockey...I saw a video of Bob Baffert in the walking ring on Breeder Cup race...clearly he favored Collected over Arrogate as he was legging Martin Garcia up...what others ways can we handicap the trainers....?

Sometimes the presence of an entry may signal a higher intent to win with at least one of the runners...a friend of mine said that if you see connections all dressed up, (like they are ready to pose for pictures) that is a good sign, what have you noticed...?

Do you use trainer stats? That is people handicapping. Do you handicap jockey connections? Do you follow owners? Do you see which owners and trainers dress up when they have a live one running? Do you know which trainers are superstitious and where lucky clothing when running a contender? Can you tell me the workout patterns of the winning horses of the trainers at your local or favorite track? Can you tell me which trainers like to give their horses a race at the track before trying to crack down? There are many other people factors that can be handicapped. Failing to account for the people factor ignores pertinent information.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Do you use trainer stats? That is people handicapping. Do you handicap jockey connections? Do you follow owners? Do you see which owners and trainers dress up when they have a live one running? Do you know which trainers are superstitious and where lucky clothing when running a contender? Can you tell me the workout patterns of the winning horses of the trainers at your local or favorite track? Can you tell me which trainers like to give their horses a race at the track before trying to crack down? There are many other people factors that can be handicapped. Failing to account for the people factor ignores pertinent information.
All valid points here....I do like my jockeys but have heard numerous times how agents are really the ones who get the live mounts of course, so when I notice that jockey x has 2 mounts and both run, we like to say that jockey x CHOSE this one over that one , so therefore, the one jockey x remains on, must be the one with the better shot. Don't know how true this is or whether his agent really makes the call.....but to do all that you say for as many as 6 tracks would take a photographic mind or else I'd look like that crazy guy I see at my local who wears the same old clothes and sweaters all the time and is overburdened with notebooks galore, pouring over them and cursing all the time when his nags lose, regardless of all his record keeping and ledger wizardry....

[AndyC]

All valid points here....I do like my jockeys but have heard numerous times how agents are really the ones who get the live mounts of course, so when I notice that jockey x has 2 mounts and both run, we like to say that jockey x CHOSE this one over that one , so therefore, the one jockey x remains on, must be the one with the better shot. Don't know how true this is or whether his agent really makes the call.....but to do all that you say for as many as 6 tracks would take a photographic mind or else I'd look like that crazy guy I see at my local who wears the same old clothes and sweaters all the time and is overburdened with notebooks galore, pouring over them and cursing all the time when his nags lose, regardless of all his record keeping and ledger wizardry....

Jockeys are allowed to talk to their agents. Absent political situations or contractual obligations the jockey would most likely make the call.

But my point remains that human handicapping is an integral if not the most important part of handicapping.

[thaskalos]

Jockeys are allowed to talk to their agents. Absent political situations or contractual obligations the jockey would most likely make the call.

But my point remains that human handicapping is an integral if not the most important part of handicapping.

It is also the biggest reason why many full-time horseplayers are now only playing the horses part-time...if they haven't given up the game altogether. "Human handicapping" isn't why we originally fell in love with this game. If I want to handicap humans, then I'd rather do it at the poker table...where I can get a better look at them.

[MONEY]

I've been doing this for over 40 years and handicapping people has always been part of the game.

Hall of Fame Jockeys
https://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/jockeys

Hall of Fame Trainers
https://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/trainers

[AndyC]

It is also the biggest reason why many full-time horseplayers are now only playing the horses part-time...if they haven't given up the game altogether. "Human handicapping" isn't why we originally fell in love with this game. If I want to handicap humans, then I'd rather do it at the poker table...where I can get a better look at them.

If you mean that players are giving up the game because of their inability to handicap the humans, I would agree. But be it poker or racing, successful people tend to repeat their successful patterns or moves. It would be foolish to ignore.

Winning bets is why we originally fell in love with the game, not usually the love of horses or the desire to compute speed figures. In pursuit of winning bets handicapping humans is far more fun than just handicapping horses.

[thaskalos]

If you mean that players are giving up the game because of their inability to handicap the humans, I would agree. But be it poker or racing, successful people tend to repeat their successful patterns or moves. It would be foolish to ignore.

Winning bets is why we originally fell in love with the game, not usually the love of horses or the desire to compute speed figures. In pursuit of winning bets handicapping humans is far more fun than just handicapping horses.

I don't agree. The appeal for me from my early beginnings in this game was the HORSE-handicapping aspect of it. I want nothing to do with a game that places the VETERINARIAN in higher emphasis than the horse itself. When it becomes a contest of one "super-trainer" against another...then I leave the track and head for the poker room. A gambler can "win bets" in all sorts of places these days...without having to deal with the nagging suspicion that he has been "robbed".

[acorn54]

i agree with thaskalos
i want no part of having to deal with studying human behavior. i get a kick out of analysis of a field of racehorses, if there is monkey business going on, its a sure thing outsiders like us will get the short end of the stick.

[cj]

It is also the biggest reason why many full-time horseplayers are now only playing the horses part-time...if they haven't given up the game altogether. "Human handicapping" isn't why we originally fell in love with this game. If I want to handicap humans, then I'd rather do it at the poker table...where I can get a better look at them.

I agree 1000% with this point. The more important I think the humans are in a race, the less likely I am to bet it.

[cj]

https://shop.drf.com/cmsstatic/BettingwithanEdge_618x252.png


https://shop.drf.com/thoroughbred-wagering

Mike talks about it here:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/drf-players-podcast-november-14-2017

I've read some of this already. I think even Gus will like it!

A disclaimer is in order. I had no idea I was mentioned in this book a few times when I posted the link.

[AndyC]

I don't agree. The appeal for me from my early beginnings in this game was the HORSE-handicapping aspect of it. I want nothing to do with a game that places the VETERINARIAN in higher emphasis than the horse itself. When it becomes a contest of one "super-trainer" against another...then I leave the track and head for the poker room. A gambler can "win bets" in all sorts of places these days...without having to deal with the nagging suspicion that he has been "robbed".

So you find no value in considering trainers and their tendencies? I couldn't imagine handicapping without considering the trainer. You write as if games and shenanigans are something new to racing. Owners and trainers have been cheating since the first bet was ever placed on a race.

[AndyC]

I agree 1000% with this point. The more important I think the humans are in a race, the less likely I am to bet it.

Do you bet maidens, layoffs, claims, first-time anything, etc., etc.? In my view humans provide the edge for a bettor. There is a limit as to what you can do with speed figs and horse data only.

[thaskalos]

Do you bet maidens, layoffs, claims, first-time anything, etc., etc.? In my view humans provide the edge for a bettor. There is a limit as to what you can do with speed figs and horse data only.

If the "human angle" provides such an edge for the bettor...then, why have some of the game's most renowned handicappers chosen to spend their time on the golf course instead of at the racetrack?

[cj]

Do you bet maidens, layoffs, claims, first-time anything, etc., etc.? In my view humans provide the edge for a bettor. There is a limit as to what you can do with speed figs and horse data only.

Of course. I said less likely. The humans always matter. I just don't like races where they are the overriding factor imo. I do just fine skipping those.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Of course. I said less likely. The humans always matter. I just don't like races where they are the overriding factor imo. I do just fine skipping those.

In this age of the uncoupled entry, multiple horses with same trainer it is difficult to gauge intention human...is the second horse a rabbit. or some other kind of team player...?

I wish they would go back to the entry rules of yesteryear but they decoupled to increase field size...a coup for trainers...it becomes a case of the "tragedy of the commons"....with the rational being something like, " hey, trainer X works it to his advantage... Why shouldn't I...?"

[Clocker]

So you find no value in considering trainers and their tendencies? I couldn't imagine handicapping without considering the trainer. You write as if games and shenanigans are something new to racing. Owners and trainers have been cheating since the first bet was ever placed on a race.

The issue is information. Chess is a game of complete information. Everything about the immediate situation of the game is known to both players. Poker is a game of incomplete information. The object of the game is to gain as much information as possible while denying it to your opponents.

Horse racing is a game of incomplete information. Trainer patterns and tendencies and intentions are information. The precise condition of the horse is information. The ability of the jockey is information. No one can ever have complete information.

Unless it violates specific rules, trainers and owners concealing information is not cheating. You don't need to have all the information, you just need more than the betting public. Same as it ever was.

[AndyC]

If the "human angle" provides such an edge for the bettor...then, why have some of the game's most renowned handicappers chosen to spend their time on the golf course instead of at the racetrack?

Probably because doing human handicapping to maintain the edge is a job and golfing is a passion. To be a good handicapper and bettor requires you to be all in. It requires a lot of time and energy. It's actually quite a selfish endeavor. I can understand why many choose to let go after keeping at it for a lifetime.

[AltonKelsey]

Probably because doing human handicapping to maintain the edge is a job and golfing is a passion. To be a good handicapper and bettor requires you to be all in. It requires a lot of time and energy. It's actually quite a selfish endeavor. I can understand why many choose to let go after keeping at it for a lifetime.


For a single person it's a massive undertaking. Much better suited to a team, but I suspect few do it that way or desire to.

I see my rep power is only 2. You guys with high ratings must really rock!

[pandy]

The amount of emphasis you put on "humans" can certainly have an effect on win percentage. For instance, if two horses look like the two main contenders in a race, both seem about equal talent and fitness, and one is trained by Pletcher and has Johnny V riding and the other is trained by a trainer who has a lifetime win percentage of 8% with an average jockey up, the Pletcher horse has a better chance of winning. But if the Pletcher horse is 6-5 and the other horse is 12-1, the 12-1 shot is still the better bet.

[thaskalos]

The amount of emphasis you put on "humans" can certainly have an effect on win percentage. For instance, if two horses look like the two main contenders in a race, both seem about equal talent and fitness, and one is trained by Pletcher and has Johnny V riding and the other is trained by a trainer who has a lifetime win percentage of 8% with an average jockey up, the Pletcher horse has a better chance of winning. But if the Pletcher horse is 6-5 and the other horse is 12-1, the 12-1 shot is still the better bet.

What if the Pletcher horse is 5-2 and the other horse is 4-1?

[pandy]

What if the Pletcher horse is 5-2 and the other horse is 4-1?

Pletcher horse at those odds.

I do think, however, based on my experience, that it's not necessary to look at the human factor at all. For instance, someone who only bets on longshots and uses some combination of pace handicapping and angles would probably be better off concentrating on that and ignoring the human factor. The human factor increases win probability but can lower ROI. However, I guess someone who is extremely patient could find overlays among high percentage trainers and jockeys.

And there are other ways to use the human factor. For instance, there are some small time owner/trainers who are particularly good at winning with longshots in certain situations. For instance, John Barile, The Tampa Bay Downs handicapper, keeps trainer stats and looks for those small barn boxcar longshot winners. And he doesn't need to hit that many each year because some pay huge prices. For a player who specializes like that, the human factor is important.

[acorn54]

i will add my two cents. if you are factoring in people such as jockeys and trainers, you are dealing with dependent varialbles. if you are using handicapping factors, you are dealing with INDEPENDENT variables. it is not good practice if one is attempting to make a prediction model to mix both.

[AndyC]

i will add my two cents. if you are factoring in people such as jockeys and trainers, you are dealing with dependent varialbles. if you are using handicapping factors, you are dealing with INDEPENDENT variables. it is not good practice if one is attempting to make a prediction model to mix both.

Please elaborate. A trainer stat is a handicapping factor, e.g. 0 for 100 with FTS 2 year olds. I am not sure what factors would be independent variables other than horse's age, color, height and length.

[acorn54]

independent variables are completely isolated from INFLUENCE of other factors, such as recency is independent of the class factor.
however a jockey that is a leading rider or a go-to rider for the stable incorporates and is a reflection of a multitude of independent factors.
i hope that makes sense.

[Clocker]

independent variables are completely isolated from INFLUENCE of other factors, such as recency is independent of the class factor.

But is recency, just as an example, independent of the trainer? The same number of days or weeks since the last race means one thing with one trainer and it means something else with another.

[AndyC]

But is recency, just as an example, independent of the trainer? The same number of days or weeks since the last race means one thing with one trainer and it means something else with another.

Exactly, not to mention workouts between races or finish in last race, etc.

[AndyC]

independent variables are completely isolated from INFLUENCE of other factors, such as recency is independent of the class factor.
however a jockey that is a leading rider or a go-to rider for the stable incorporates and is a reflection of a multitude of independent factors.
i hope that makes sense.

OK. You then beg the question, which independent variables can actually provide enough info to make a difference?

[Boulder]

Has anybody review his book yet? Just wondering what everybody's thoughts are?

Thanks

Boulder

[VigorsTheGrey]

Do you think many trainers intentionally "darken" their horses' form and subsequent racelines in order to bag betting windfalls down the road...if so, would that mean collaboration with the jockey to attain these ends...? If I remember correctly, the jockey is required to work for the best possible outcomes for each race they ride in...but what if the trainer is pointing for another race and just wants a nice 4 or 5 panel work from the current race, and not to exert the horse trying to win right now...there's nothing preventing the connections from doing this, right...?

I mean, it seems like this is pretty common, to be entered in a race with absolutely no intent to win it...and this is no doubt one angle trainers use....they have inside information here that the public is not aware of and that is huge especially if his horse is generally considered a true contender...it was, after all, the great Willie Shoemaker who remarked that his "job" was to "ride and STIFF horses"....!

[acorn54]

i am not going to argue. i just thought i would add some intelligent thought to the conversation of how statistics are used in models of predictability, to avoid redundancy of the influence of variables.

[AndyC]

i am not going to argue. i just thought i would add some intelligent thought to the conversation of how statistics are used in models of predictability, to avoid redundancy of the influence of variables.

No argument sought nor intended. Would simply like you to expand on the concept of independent variables as something useful in betting horses. be specific as to what variables you believe would yield the best results.

[MONEY]

No argument sought nor intended. Would simply like you to expand on the concept of independent variables as something useful in betting horses. be specific as to what variables you believe would yield the best results.

I have no idea what you are asking of him.

These are independent variables.
Post time favorites win about 35% of the time.

In Turf Paradise dirt races, early speed wins many more races than late speed.
At some other track late speed might be king.

Next year late speed might be the way to go at Turf Paradise.

The only consistent variable besides post time favorites in horse racing is money.
Year after year Trainers, Jockeys, Owners & Horses that make the most money continue to win races and make more money.

Using any the above variables may help us with our handicapping, but none of them will make us better gamblers.

[jballscalls]

I read Mike's book over the weekend and had him on my show today. I found the book to be a good mix of biography/stories, handicapping psychology, handicapping, and betting.

To me the most interesting stuff was the horseplayer psychology stuff. I think that's some of the less talked about stuff that I find the most interesting. Interview with Mike starts about 8 minutes in if you want to listen.

https://extra.betamerica.com/barn-podcast-12517-2/

[AndyC]

I have no idea what you are asking of him.

".....if you are using handicapping factors, you are dealing with INDEPENDENT variables. it is not good practice if one is attempting to make a prediction model to mix both."

I am asking him to explain what he means. To me, handicapping factors are overwhelmingly dependent variables. I would like to know how one would go about trying to improve handicapping results by using independent variables exclusively.

These are independent variables.
Post time favorites win about 35% of the time.

In Turf Paradise dirt races, early speed wins many more races than late speed.
At some other track late speed might be king.

Next year late speed might be the way to go at Turf Paradise.

The only consistent variable besides post time favorites in horse racing is money.
Year after year Trainers, Jockeys, Owners & Horses that make the most money continue to win races and make more money.

Using any the above variables may help us with our handicapping, but none of them will make us better gamblers.

In all races that have odds-on favorites at TUP do the favorites still win 35% of the time? If not, what good is that stat?

Does early speed win more races than late speed where there are 4 dedicated frontrunners in the race?

Are your examples of independent variables really independent if they are dependent on the makeup of each race or are they just averages?

[Clocker]

I have no idea what you are asking of him.

These are independent variables.
Post time favorites win about 35% of the time.

In Turf Paradise dirt races, early speed wins many more races than late speed.


The variables discussed here are the data used in statistical analysis. That would include things like split times, final times, speed figures, recency, etc. The question raised here is which of those are independent of human influence, such as the trainer or the jockey.

In the context of statistical analysis, the statement "early speed wins many more races" would be a conclusion, not a variable.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I read Mike's book over the weekend and had him on my show today. I found the book to be a good mix of biography/stories, handicapping psychology, handicapping, and betting.

To me the most interesting stuff was the horseplayer psychology stuff. I think that's some of the less talked about stuff that I find the most interesting. Interview with Mike starts about 8 minutes in if you want to listen.

https://extra.betamerica.com/barn-podcast-12517-2/

I like your show and I listen to it regularly...any way we can get Michelle back on the jury...? Thought she had some good picks...

[VigorsTheGrey]

The author said that before the Super went under a dollar, there was value there and it frequently paid out to ALL ....that's all changed now that the DIME is here, which he said leveled the playing field-- something, he said was good for racing....he also said that when the Super was a buck, he would structure his tickets on the assumption that it would indeed payoff to an ALL...I guess that would look something like this:

Bombs
Bombs
Bombs/ Contenders
Any single

Anybody have a take on what his strategy would have looked like...?

[AndyC]

I read Mike's book over the weekend and had him on my show today. I found the book to be a good mix of biography/stories, handicapping psychology, handicapping, and betting.

To me the most interesting stuff was the horseplayer psychology stuff. I think that's some of the less talked about stuff that I find the most interesting. Interview with Mike starts about 8 minutes in if you want to listen.

https://extra.betamerica.com/barn-podcast-12517-2/

Great interview Jason. I had the pleasure of working with Mike on the NTRA Player's Panel back in 2004(?). We wrote the tax portion of the panel's recommendations. I am sure that when the recent regulations were enacted regarding withholding that he was the happiest horseplayer around. He shared with me his yearly battles to finance his betting because his money was all tied up in tax withholding. He is/was an exotic player and most of his wins would result in tax withholding. He could cash winning tickets totaling $2,000,000 and have a profit of $200,000 but need betting money because $560,000 was being withheld from the winning tickets.

[MONEY]

I read Mike's book over the weekend and had him on my show today. I found the book to be a good mix of biography/stories, handicapping psychology, handicapping, and betting.

To me the most interesting stuff was the horseplayer psychology stuff. I think that's some of the less talked about stuff that I find the most interesting. Interview with Mike starts about 8 minutes in if you want to listen.

https://extra.betamerica.com/barn-podcast-12517-2/
So, do you now have an edge?

[linrom1]

I listened to the interview---there was nothing in there that would benefit handicappers except I found it a bit distressing that he said that Keenland and Red Mile give him office space.

Does he pay for this, or is it a perk given to large bettors; of course, at mine expense and many other small bettors?

[pandy]

I listened to the interview---there was nothing in there that would benefit handicappers except I found it a bit distressing that he said that Keenland and Red Mile give him office space.

Does he pay for this, or is it a perk given to large bettors; of course, at mine expense and many other small bettors?

I just started reading the book last night, so far so good. As for his perks, I don't see how giving him office space would hurt anyone else. It's just good business to give your best customers some perks.

[AndyC]

I listened to the interview---there was nothing in there that would benefit handicappers except I found it a bit distressing that he said that Keenland and Red Mile give him office space.

Does he pay for this, or is it a perk given to large bettors; of course, at mine expense and many other small bettors?

How much is unused office space going for at the Red Mile? How much money do you think that the Red Mile makes due to Maloney betting there? Assuming he bets $5,000,000, (it could be more but it couldn't be too much less) and the Red Mile makes 3% on his action or $150,000, how does that hurt you? What expense are you paying for?

[linrom1]

How much is unused office space going for at the Red Mile? How much money do you think that the Red Mile makes due to Maloney betting there? Assuming he bets $5,000,000, (it could be more but it couldn't be too much less) and the Red Mile makes 3% on his action or $150,000, how does that hurt you? What expense are you paying for?

It's not office space, but, everything that goes with it such as: access to the racing office, trainers, jockeys' agents, etc. How about unfettered access to the tote?

This guy sounds like such a lovable guy who cares about handicappers:D Can I stop laughing now?

[AndyC]

It's not office space, but, everything that goes with it such as: access to the racing office, trainers, jockeys' agents, etc. How about unfettered access to the tote?.....

What's stopping you from going to the racing office or talking to trainers and jockey's agents? Unfettered access to the tote sounds sounds very grassy knoll-like.

[Franco Santiago]

Do you use trainer stats?

Not very often.
Do you handicap jockey connections? Never

Do you follow owners? Never

Do you see which owners and trainers dress up when they have a live one running? Never

Do you know which trainers are superstitious and where lucky clothing when running a contender? Never

Can you tell me the workout patterns of the winning horses of the trainers at your local or favorite track? No, but I don't care.

Can you tell me which trainers like to give their horses a race at the track before trying to crack down? No, but I don't care.

There are many other people factors that can be handicapped. Failing to account for the people factor ignores pertinent information.

Mostly a bunch of impertinent noise, IMO.

[dlivery]

All I hear at my local track the jockeys are taking turns winning Bah Bah:popcorn::puke:

[AndyC]

Mostly a bunch of impertinent noise, IMO.

One man's noise is another man's music. There are edges to be found everywhere, you just have to turn over enough rocks.

[pandy]

Has anybody review his book yet? Just wondering what everybody's thoughts are?

Thanks

Boulder


This thread really got off topic, so I'll get it back on track. I just finished reading Betting With An Edge by professional horseplayer Mike Maloney. I liked it a lot. If you like racetrack stories, Mike has been doing this a long time and has some great stories in this book. I really enjoyed that part of it. As for the handicapping information, in a way it's fundamental, albeit thorough, handicappiing, but I liked it. Most people play the horses for entertainment and don't actually do a lot of work. Maloney does a lot of work, it's a full time job and then some. I have a friend who's a professional harness bettor and his approach is very similar to Maloney's, he does his own speed figures for at least a couple of circuits, he keeps strict records on track bias, etc.

One thing that I'll tell you is that even though Maloney uses Speed Figures, he doesn't trust one number, not even his own. I found that interesting because I believe that it's better to use more than one set of figures if you are serious about handicapping and betting. For instance, Maloney will compare the Beyer figures against Timeform's. If they don't agree, that's a red flag, and then he can't be that confident about the horse's ability.

If you want to read a book that's all about handicappping you might be disappointed, but if you like racetrack stories, you may love this book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. As for the handicapping part of it, there are certain parts of this book, where Maloney writes about how he bets the horses, that I truly think will help me, even though I've been doing this for a long time. I don't want to say too much because it's not fair to give out his secrets, you have to read the book. But I loved how he shows how he implements his Lock It Up and Kill Bet strategies. I'm going to use both from now one. Other parts of the book will also help me and I'll be using my copy as a reference when I'm placing my bets.

I'm pretty much the only one who has come out with handicapping books the last few years. I like reading about handicapping and horse racing and I was anxious to read this book by this renowned professional bettor. it didn't disappoint.

[FakeNameChanged]

This thread really got off topic, so I'll get it back on track. I just finished reading Betting With An Edge by professional horseplayer Mike Maloney. I liked it a lot. If you like racetrack stories, Mike has been doing this a long time and has some great stories in this book. I really enjoyed that part of it. As for the handicapping information, in a way it's fundamental, albeit thorough, handicappiing, but I liked it. Most people play the horses for entertainment and don't actually do a lot of work. Maloney does a lot of work, it's a full time job and then some. I have a friend who's a professional harness bettor and his approach is very similar to Maloney's, he does his own speed figures for at least a couple of circuits, he keeps strict records on track bias, etc.

One thing that I'll tell you is that even though Maloney uses Speed Figures, he doesn't trust one number, not even his own. I found that interesting because I believe that it's better to use more than one set of figures if you are serious about handicapping and betting. For instance, Maloney will compare the Beyer figures against Timeform's. If they don't agree, that's a red flag, and then he can't be that confident about the horse's ability.

If you want to read a book that's all about handicappping you might be disappointed, but if you like racetrack stories, you may love this book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. As for the handicapping part of it, there are certain parts of this book, where Maloney writes about how he bets the horses, that I truly think will help me, even though I've been doing this for a long time. I don't want to say too much because it's not fair to give out his secrets, you have to read the book. But I loved how he shows how he implements his Lock It Up and Kill Bet strategies. I'm going to use both from now one. Other parts of the book will also help me and I'll be using my copy as a reference when I'm placing my bets.

I'm pretty much the only one who has come out with handicapping books the last few years. I like reading about handicapping and horse racing and I was anxious to read this book by this renowned professional bettor. it didn't disappoint.
Good review Pandy, the highlighted portion is something I've learned the hard way, and practically no other hcp-ing writers mention it.

[mikesal57]

Good review Pandy, the highlighted portion is something I've learned the hard way, and practically no other hcp-ing writers mention it.

Has anyone ever do a side by side comparison?

The numbers I know are Timeform's, Beyer's, and HDW's....are there more?

And to answer my question..its probably NO because of the cost it will occur....:)

Mike

[pandy]

Has anyone ever do a side by side comparison?

The numbers I know are Timeform's, Beyer's, and HDW's....are there more?

And to answer my question..its probably NO because of the cost it will occur....:)

Mike


For speed figures in the most widely used past performances, there are Bris, Trackmaster (Equibase), Timeform, Beyer. I actually think that the speed figures that Trackmaster generates in their pps are different from the regular Equibase speed figures that appear in the track programs that are sold at simulcast centers. So there are five different types of speed figures regularly available in the most well-known past performance publications. Every one has occasional bad or suspect figures. We know this because one could have a horse's last race as clearly the fastest in the race, while another may show the same last race performance as the third fastest in the race. Obviously, one of them is wrong. When you make speed figures, you're taking your best guess. Sometimes you guess wrong. Equibase and Brisnet are computer generated figures, but because of tricky track changes (such as a track that gets faster or slower as the day goes on), or limited data (six turf races, only three dirt races), it can be tough to compute an accurate variant, be it by computer or a real live handicapper.

Obviously, Maloney makes some really big bets. In his book he pointed out that if, for instance, the Beyer speed figure is much different than the Timeform speed figure on a particular horse, that raises a red flag. If you think about it, say you are a big chalk bettor who likes to bet $500 to win. You see a horse that ran a 95 Beyer in his second career start, and the horse looks at least two lengths better than anything in the field. The horse is 7-5 today. Now you check Timeform and see that the horse was given an 85 for its last race and two other horses in the race are ranked ahead of it. Are you still going to bet the $500? Is the horse the fastest in the race or not?

[mikesal57]

Thxs Pandy for clearing the names up...

But I assume no one has done a study on them....correct?

Mike

[Clocker]

Has anyone ever do a side by side comparison?

The numbers I know are Timeform's, Beyer's, and HDW's....are there more?

And to answer my question..its probably NO because of the cost it will occur....:)

Mike

BRIS also makes their own speed figures. You can get selective PPs free here:

http://www.trks2day.com/trks2day.html

[pandy]

Thxs Pandy for clearing the names up...

But I assume no one has done a study on them....correct?

Mike

I believe there was a study done comparing Bris to Beyer.

[mikesal57]

BRIS also makes their own speed figures. You can get selective PPs free here:

http://www.trks2day.com/trks2day.html

Thxs Clocker....one of my favorite sites for years :headbanger:

I believe that every handicapper should read the PP's no mater what they do manually or with a computer.

EX:

I use one of the top expensive programs that's related to this board
Quite a few times , it will spit out a horse like this:

RAces 28...wins 2....seconds 8....thirds 6

what are the chances of him winning?
what are the chances of him coming in the money?

Will you know this WITHOUT reading PP's ???

Another example will be a horse coming out of a limit wins condition, racing against multiple winners with twice their wins...

What are their chances....???


What I'm saying is read the PP's!!!

Mike

[ubercapper]

Thxs Pandy for clearing the names up...

But I assume no one has done a study on them....correct?

Mike

This was mentioned a few months back. The answer is yes and here's the post that was most pertinent.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2223097&postcount=79

[mikesal57]

This was mentioned a few months back. The answer is yes and here's the post that was most pertinent.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2223097&postcount=79

Thxs buddy...appreciate that


IMO ....Theres no doubt he found something ...
come on ,anyone with all that info in the palm of thier hands has to come up with something...
and to say that it was his plan and he knew exactly what was going to happen..
he played all their egos and came out the winner!!!

mike

[MEC]

Well I would like to order it..but ... From DRF the book is about U.S.$35 ,
great...but shipping is another U.S. $37 !!
So I go to Amazon.Com...they want U.S. $48...well OK, but .. they want another U.S. $43.93 for shipping.
Convert those amounts to our 'sad ass Canadian 'Turdo' dollars and you are looking at well over a hundred bucks or so.
Any viewers from "The Great White North" have you got any better sources ??

(and don't tell me to wait until our dollar goes back up in value, I probably won't live that long !) Still it sounds like a interesting read.

[AltonKelsey]

huh? since when is shipping so high to canada?

[cj]

Started reading it last night.

[JustRalph]

No kindle version?

$48 bucks on Amazon........? Hardcover only?

Now I know what his edge is.....

[thaskalos]

Pandy's book-review dissuaded me from buying this book. I am not looking for "amusing racetrack stories". I have accumulated plenty of those on my own.

[pandy]

This thread really got off topic, so I'll get it back on track. I just finished reading Betting With An Edge by professional horseplayer Mike Maloney. I liked it a lot. If you like racetrack stories, Mike has been doing this a long time and has some great stories in this book. I really enjoyed that part of it. As for the handicapping information, in a way it's fundamental, albeit thorough, handicappiing, but I liked it. Most people play the horses for entertainment and don't actually do a lot of work. Maloney does a lot of work, it's a full time job and then some. I have a friend who's a professional harness bettor and his approach is very similar to Maloney's, he does his own speed figures for at least a couple of circuits, he keeps strict records on track bias, etc.

One thing that I'll tell you is that even though Maloney uses Speed Figures, he doesn't trust one number, not even his own. I found that interesting because I believe that it's better to use more than one set of figures if you are serious about handicapping and betting. For instance, Maloney will compare the Beyer figures against Timeform's. If they don't agree, that's a red flag, and then he can't be that confident about the horse's ability.

If you want to read a book that's all about handicappping you might be disappointed, but if you like racetrack stories, you may love this book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. As for the handicapping part of it, there are certain parts of this book, where Maloney writes about how he bets the horses, that I truly think will help me, even though I've been doing this for a long time. I don't want to say too much because it's not fair to give out his secrets, you have to read the book. But I loved how he shows how he implements his Lock It Up and Kill Bet strategies. I'm going to use both from now one. Other parts of the book will also help me and I'll be using my copy as a reference when I'm placing my bets.

I'm pretty much the only one who has come out with handicapping books the last few years. I like reading about handicapping and horse racing and I was anxious to read this book by this renowned professional bettor. it didn't disappoint.


Another thing about Maloney's book, it's interesting to see how a professional gambler thinks. It's different because he's more attuned to the various parimutuel pools. You get to see how he manages his bankroll and figures out how to bet each key horse that he likes.

[Tom]

Ordered it today.
Ralph, only $32 at DRF.

[jahura2]

https://shop.drf.com/cmsstatic/BettingwithanEdge_618x252.png


https://shop.drf.com/thoroughbred-wagering

Mike talks about it here:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/drf-players-podcast-november-14-2017

I've read some of this already. I think even Gus will like it!

Thanks for posting this CJ. I have known Mike for over 40 years and can guarantee this will be a good read. Spent many college road trips on I-75 heading to Latonia to bet the races with him and his dad in the early 70's. I have learned so many useful things from Mike but he left me far behind in knowledge and handicapping/betting years ago. One of the truly "good" guys I have met in this game over the years. Regardless of how many racing stories anyone has heard its always great to hear more. Havent read it yet but definitely looking forward to it.

[cj]

Thanks for posting this CJ. I have known Mike for over 40 years and can guarantee this will be a good read. Spent many college road trips on I-75 heading to Latonia to bet the races with him and his dad in the early 70's. I have learned so many useful things from Mike but he left me far behind in knowledge and handicapping/betting years ago. One of the truly "good" guys I have met in this game over the years. Regardless of how many racing stories anyone has heard its always great to hear more. Havent read it yet but definitely looking forward to it.

That is really cool to hear, thanks for sharing.

[cj]

Enjoying it so far, have been busy and took a few days away, back soon.

[classhandicapper]

Obviously, Maloney makes some really big bets. In his book he pointed out that if, for instance, the Beyer speed figure is much different than the Timeform speed figure on a particular horse, that raises a red flag. If you think about it, say you are a big chalk bettor who likes to bet $500 to win. You see a horse that ran a 95 Beyer in his second career start, and the horse looks at least two lengths better than anything in the field. The horse is 7-5 today. Now you check Timeform and see that the horse was given an 85 for its last race and two other horses in the race are ranked ahead of it. Are you still going to bet the $500? Is the horse the fastest in the race or not?

I went down the road of looking at two or more sets of figures a very long time ago. At one time I had Beyer figures, CJ figures, Logic Dictate figures, reviewed major stakes days on my own, and occasionally had Thoroghgraph or Ragozin figures. I also spent the time required to understand the methodology differences that accounted for some of he differences.

There are some obvious upsides when figures agree. The problem is that when all the major figure makers agree, the prices reflect that. So I quickly switched to trying to figure out which figure maker had it right or wrong when they disagreed. I started looking closely at the field, the day in question, how horses were coming out of the race, was there a potential methodology flaw at work etc..

That helps sometimes, but most of the time it's really tough to be sure who has it right even after the fact. After years of practice, I found that looking at multiple figures can be just as paralyzing and time consuming as it was helpful.

I would say that now I just accept that whatever set I am looking at will have some errors. I'm more concerned with their overall performance and ROI hoping to at least be in more fertile grounds than an alternative.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I just started reading it and am enjoying it. I like the stories about the history and evolution of an author in this game. Will check back in!

[Tom]

My copy came yesterday - reading now and it is a really good book.
I like the perspective of a guy I might be leaning on the rail alongside talking.

Especially liked the chapter on the past-posting and the typical reply from those supposedly running the game - you know, the lying morons. :pound:

And nice to see CJ getting some props - having watched him grow from a guy in the stands to an industry voice right here on PA! :headbanger:

[aaron]

I went down the road of looking at two or more sets of figures a very long time ago. At one time I had Beyer figures, CJ figures, Logic Dictate figures, reviewed major stakes days on my own, and occasionally had Thoroghgraph or Ragozin figures. I also spent the time required to understand the methodology differences that accounted for some of he differences.

There are some obvious upsides when figures agree. The problem is that when all the major figure makers agree, the prices reflect that. So I quickly switched to trying to figure out which figure maker had it right or wrong when they disagreed. I started looking closely at the field, the day in question, how horses were coming out of the race, was there a potential methodology flaw at work etc..

That helps sometimes, but most of the time it's really tough to be sure who has it right even after the fact. After years of practice, I found that looking at multiple figures can be just as paralyzing and time consuming as it was helpful.

I would say that now I just accept that whatever set I am looking at will have some errors. I'm more concerned with their overall performance and ROI hoping to at least be in more fertile grounds than an alternative.

I have looked at many different figures over time. I think the most important thing when looking at figures is to have confidence in the figures you are using.
Then analyze, if it was a bias or a trip enhanced figure and go from there. If you believe the figure,then analyze the race and you are getting a fair price, then you have a bet.Generally,IMO,I think you are better off with figures that are not publicly published, because less players have access to them. In many cases due to circumstances, the figure makers are just making an educated guess as to what the figure should be. I have seen many figure makers change their numbers after subsequent races have been run. The most important thing to remember about figures is that they are just another tool for you to work with.

[cj]

I like his track bias stuff. I'm really liking the money management. There is a section about people with gambling problems that I think is very good. We'll all known someone like that or been there ourselves. More to come...

[cj]

Disclaimer: I work for the publisher and I'm mentioned positively a few times in the book. I didn't know that to be the case when I bought the book. And yes, I did buy it.

Overall I think this book is great. I'm not as big on the stories as some probably will be because as horseplayers we all have them, but I'm sure many will enjoy them.

That said, what more could a horseplayer ask for than a real winning player telling you exactly how he does things? He covers so many things and he also talks about stuff nobody else has in any horse racing books I've ever read, and that number is over 100 I'm sure. I picked up several things I plan on using from the book. It is well worth the price in my opinion.

[GMB@BP]

I finally finished the book....what can I say, I am busy.

One thing to note, I would consider myself an expert at handicapping, as close to being professional level, without being professional. I am sure some would not agree but I have been doing this a long time and have been around some of the best handicappers in this country. So my views are from that perspective.

I do love reading handicapping books, the subject itself is entertaining enough that just about any book I will enjoy. If you like handicapping you will enjoy this book, I have no doubts.

Mike is great, and having listened to him many times over the years, he relates handicapping and his time at the track very well. His stories are great and provide the book more enjoyment than just a pure numbers and data analysis type of handicapping book.

That is a strength of the book, that it ties real track experience and handicapping. Telling it with actual stories provides context that we can often relate to, in our own handicapping story world.

The books strengths are the sections on Bias, Trip Handicapping, Performance Figures, and activism chapter at the end. I would like to see a more expanded Performance Figure discussion, it’s a concept I played around with but have never implemented in any real fashion. I feel with Timeform figures adjusted for pace, adjusting them further in his Performance Figure concepts would provide the best possible data point to use.

The one thing I think is tough, and while he mentions its not easy, the Bias and Trip work, at the level he is talking about is not possible for the non-professional player. I am a working professional with 2 kids. I tried doing trip/bias work for Saratoga this summer, then SA and Del Mar in the fall. Its just too tough. Not enough hours in a week. I think the only way one gets this done is to team up with 2-3 people and share data, or purchase it.

I was taken back though that while Mike bets through Keeneland, he is open about the fact he gets a rebate, but what I didn’t know was that Kee provided the rebate. So when he bets on Keeneland and say gets a 5% rebate he effectively is given a different takeout rate by Kee, that doesn’t not sit well with me. This is not an ADW playing with their own margins, this is the track that sets the takeout rates. Maybe I am splitting hairs but just doesn’t feel right.

The past posting is beyond disgusting, but not a surprise.

Anyways, good book, worth the read.

[baconswitchfarm]

I listened to the interview---there was nothing in there that would benefit handicappers except I found it a bit distressing that he said that Keenland and Red Mile give him office space.

Does he pay for this, or is it a perk given to large bettors; of course, at mine expense and many other small bettors?

I am in the office next door to Mike. There are five professional guys total. Luckily , there is one office still open. They would like you to bet at least 300k a month for free programs and the office space. Outside that, there are really no extra perks. Come on down.

[ultracapper]

That's why handicapping the humans is every bit as important as handicapping the horses.

Getting into the head of the trainer is a major plus.

[ultracapper]

Not handicapping the humans is like not using your 5,6, and 7 irons. We all have those clubs we just can't hit, but the occasion always arises where one of those clubs is the best shot. You gotta try to get into their heads a little. And sometimes from 175 yards away, you just got no choice.

[metro]

Thanks for posting this CJ. I have known Mike for over 40 years and can guarantee this will be a good read. Spent many college road trips on I-75 heading to Latonia to bet the races with him and his dad in the early 70's. I have learned so many useful things from Mike but he left me far behind in knowledge and handicapping/betting years ago. One of the truly "good" guys I have met in this game over the years. Regardless of how many racing stories anyone has heard its always great to hear more. Havent read it yet but definitely looking forward to it.

Really happy for Mike...

Like yourself I've had the pleasure and good fortune to not only know Mike but sit with him, his dad "Rullah," and an assorted cast of other characters impossible to describe, playing the ponies from his Keeneland suite. Seems like yesterday but this was several years back in the mid to late 90s and through the early 00s. I'm not near the player that Mike was, and now is, but we shared a lot of the same handicapping angles, mainly playing biases.

While the book is surely invaluable for what he shares the stories will be my main interest. Some of which I've likely heard, others that maybe more recent since I've moved from Lexington about 10 years ago and only see Mike on occasion these days.

Just reading this thread there are obviously plenty of posters here that know Mike or have interacted with him in some way. I think most all would agree there is no greater ambassador for the sport....at least on the side of the player.

[Dave Schwartz]

I really want to read this book. Just purchased it on Kindle and the book is unreadable.

It is simply not formatted properly for Kindle. Make sure you purchase the print edition.

Edit: Bought it on DRF.com.

[AltonKelsey]

Kind of shocking to hear.

How hard is it to format a book ?

How is it unreadable?

[Dave Schwartz]

Kind of shocking to hear.

How hard is it to format a book ?

How is it unreadable?

There are two pages on each kindle page, the font is about 5 points (no joke) and cannot be made larger.

But, for the record, formatting a book for kindle is really difficult if it was not written with Kindle in mind to begin with.

[JustRalph]

That’s why I didn’t buy it. If I can’t read it on kindle I usually pass. I read somewhere it was not for kindle.

[Tom]

Real smart to put out a product you can;t use.
Who runs that place, morons? :lol:

[Pensacola Pete]

Who runs that place, morons? :lol:

DRF staff isn't up to that level yet.

[erikeepper]

The Kindle version from Amazon works fine.

[Tom]

Now that the sun is back and it getting warmer outside, I have to grab a 6 pack and go sit by the lake and really digest this book. He has some really good ideas in it. I like his using two races and then adding or subtracting for certain factors.

Lots to take in.

[GMB@BP]

Now that the sun is back and it getting warmer outside, I have to grab a 6 pack and go sit by the lake and really digest this book. He has some really good ideas in it. I like his using two races and then adding or subtracting for certain factors.

Lots to take in.

I do to, wish there was more examples, or if we could get another DRF seminar where they go through a card and see some of the adjustments.

I use Timeform pace adjusted figures and then adjust for trips and other factors.

what I typical do is make a "in form" Performance figure and the second number is more of a "top performance figure" and then I try to figure what has to happen for them to get from A to B.

[rcknhrse]

being a compulsive!if i dot every I and cross every T then i win but if I wake up ,go to computer and turn on a steeple chase from ireland and just throw chips i crash and burn .Same thing log in 2 min to post and scramble , look at the bris summary on the video feed and try and play that way sometimes hit but usually lose especially throwing $$ at exotics

[Dave Schwartz]

I am truly savoring Mike Maloney's book. Reading it really slowly for the full effect. (It is too good to speed through.)

My favorite horse racing book of all time was Andy Beyer's, My $50,000 Year at the Races. Now I will have two favorites.

It will be a classic.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I am truly savoring Mike Maloney's book. Reading it really slowly for the full effect. (It is too good to speed through.)

My favorite horse racing book of all time was Andy Beyer's, My $50,000 Year at the Races. Now I will have two favorites.

It will be a classic.

Wow Dave a lot I agree with here. I read good books slowly and deliberately too. I have only read portions of this one and have gotten a lot out of it. And I was thrilled when I got my Beyer's 50 K book in the mail from Amazon and in great condition. I love that one!

[Helles]

I'm pretty sure I have an Amazon gift card in the junk drawer at home. I shall now use it.

[Wiley]

I am truly savoring Mike Maloney's book. Reading it really slowly for the full effect. (It is too good to speed through.)

My favorite horse racing book of all time was Andy Beyer's, My $50,000 Year at the Races. Now I will have two favorites.

It will be a classic.

That's a big endorsement to me. Beyer's $50,000 year at the races book is my all time favorite horse racing or horse related book and I have read probably in the hundreds. I have read that book maybe 15 to 20 times, it's like an old friend.

It was also the first horse racing related book I ever read, my sister got it for me for a Christmas gift in maybe 1979 or so. Hooked ever since. I will check this one out. Thanks.

[JustRalph]

Can anybody confirm it now works well on kindle?

[Wiley]

Can anybody confirm it now works well on kindle?

I used the Kindle cloud sample version through Amazon and it is awful to read. On my computer, I could not change the text size which is very small. Maybe the Full version is better, don't know. Ended up just ordering a hard copy.

[JustRalph]

I read the Kndle version. The formatting sucks.

It’s a good book. Worth the read.

it reminds me that there are some big fish out there. If you’re going to go swimming with them.......you might get hurt

[Dave Schwartz]

I used the Kindle cloud sample version through Amazon and it is awful to read. On my computer, I could not change the text size which is very small. Maybe the Full version is better, don't know. Ended up just ordering a hard copy.

Same here. Both Kindle issue and hard back.

The book is just excellent. Very enjoyable read.

[erikeepper]

The Kindle version from Amazon works fine.

Strange that people are having so much problem with a kindle version. Mine works wonderfully. There was a problem with the version that first came out but it was fixed pretty soon.

[thaskalos]

Strange that people are having so much problem with a kindle version. Mine works wonderfully. There was a problem with the version that first came out but it was fixed pretty soon.

The kindle sample on the Amazon website is flawed...and the kindle edition there is advertised as having only 146 pages, while the hardback edition lists 286 pages.

[cj]

Been reading this again in my spare time. I think this book is really good and I'm catching things this time I missed the first time through. The writer is a proven winner and details how he does it. Not sure what more people could ask.

[ReplayRandall]

Our guests this week Peter Fornatale and Mike Maloney. Together they have authored Betting With an Edge; A Professional Horse Player's Life in Thoroughbred Racing. Mike has been betting the horses since he was a child, but quit his job in 2000 to pursue it professionally. Mike is the Daily Racing Form Tournament editor, as well as the host of the DRF Players' Podcast.

https://youtu.be/KhjmAaLRLVM

[01:19] How did the book come about?

[07:59] How did Peter meet Mike?

[09:31] How did the computer assisted betting in the 90’s affect Mike’s betting?

[10:11] When did Mike quit his job?

[13:36] What is track bias, and how does Mike handle it on multiple tracks?

[16:49] What is mapping routes?

[19:44] Is there a way to narrow down the candidates for looking for biases?

[21:55] The threshold for getting rebates and how much can you expect?

[23:21] Declines in the popularity of the U.S. tracks

[29:17] “The Sting” and cheating in the 21st century

[38:41] Ways where Horse racing could improve

[49:05] Tournament horse racing v.s. normal horse racing

[52:47] Resources for getting started in horse racing

[56:07] Handicapping thoroughbred horses and quarter horses