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View Full Version : Bring Back the Cheap Speed


maliksealy210
05-07-2017, 12:54 PM
I think the win mutual was way more fun, and the race itself more enjoyable prior to the current points system. I think we need to either put a couple 7f 3 yr old races on the points trail or get rid of the system. It was fun watching pace meltdowns and three across the wire finishes. This was one spread out field this year, even worse than the previous two.

Julz
05-07-2017, 01:06 PM
Amen brother. Point system killed the derby. I have been saying the same thing since I figured out the point system. Biggest and best race of the year is just no fun anymore. 5 straight years of favorites. Belmont has become a way better race.

PowerUpPaynter
05-07-2017, 06:28 PM
at least tweak it... add more races worth pts, take the early 10 pts races and make them worth 25 to the winner and scale down from there

nomadpat
05-07-2017, 06:34 PM
It's actually a plan to bring new fans to the game. Millennials want things easy, so CDI obliged ;):)

letswastemoney
05-07-2017, 07:03 PM
I spent years and years trying to understand the "old" Kentucky Derby and its nuances, so I'd rather get the cheap speed back too rather than accept the new era.

Julz
05-07-2017, 09:23 PM
I would accept it if weren't so boring and predictable.

PowerUpPaynter
05-07-2017, 09:32 PM
eh nothing we can do to change it. We just got to change. Tactical speed horse thats logical favorite bet it and bet hard.

VigorsTheGrey
05-07-2017, 10:03 PM
I agree, American racing needs rabbits to chase in the races...there ought to be rabbits provided by the track for just this purpose, so there will always be true pace and so the front end can not be milked for an easy score...

PaceAdvantage
05-08-2017, 03:56 PM
I agree, American racing needs rabbits to chase in the races...there ought to be rabbits provided by the track for just this purpose, so there will always be true pace and so the front end can not be milked for an easy score...That makes a lot of sense...NOT...:rolleyes:

Julz
05-08-2017, 04:02 PM
Pace, you're absolutely correct. I've been telling myself this for the past 4 years. The problem is that I never listen to myself come derby day.

VigorsTheGrey
05-08-2017, 04:05 PM
That makes a lot of sense...NOT...:rolleyes:

ok, track owned rabbits are a no go idea...but in europe, rabbits are a common feature in most races aren't they...?

What explains this...?

PaceAdvantage
05-08-2017, 04:10 PM
ok, track owned rabbits are a no go idea...but in europe, rabbits are a common feature in most races aren't they...?

What explains this...?Lots of horses bred to be closers on the turf who need an honest pace to run at? That's just a guess.

elhelmete
05-08-2017, 04:12 PM
Why should we 'subsidize' closers? Makes no sense.

Grits
05-08-2017, 04:13 PM
People have short memories. They forget all the years of constant complaining about horses that didn't belong. This would be a horrible idea. Just looking at the payouts for this Derby, alone, should allow anyone to see how horrible an idea this would be. In other words, it is on you, not Churchill, if you didn't find value this year. It was there.

Exotic1
05-08-2017, 04:17 PM
People have short memories. They forget all the years of constant complaining about horses that didn't belong. This would be a horrible idea. Just looking at the payouts for this Derby, alone, should allow anyone to see how horrible an idea this would be. In other words, it is on you, not Churchill, if you didn't find value this year. It was there.


Perfect !!

I wrote an incoherent books worth and you found a way to say it in two sentences.

elhelmete
05-08-2017, 04:18 PM
People have short memories. They forget all the years of constant complaining about horses that didn't belong. This would be a horrible idea. Just looking at the payouts for this Derby, alone, should allow anyone to see how horrible an idea this would be. In other words, it is on you, not Churchill, if you didn't find value this year. It was there.

Sidney's Candy was the last "cheap" speed I recall being touted prior to the points system.

o_crunk
05-08-2017, 04:48 PM
What sprinter has the points system kept out?

Names please.

VigorsTheGrey
05-08-2017, 06:00 PM
Maybe the upper sprint Stakes ought to be included in the points system...Hell, why not include ALL the stakes in the points system and the highest point earners overall get to decide if they want to go in the Derby or not....they are always going to fill the race nowadays...why not let the best of ALL DISTANCES and surfaces compete for the Roses...?

elhelmete
05-08-2017, 06:17 PM
Maybe the upper sprint Stakes ought to be included in the points system...Hell, why not include ALL the stakes in the points system and the highest point earners overall get to decide if they want to go in the Derby or not....they are always going to fill the race nowadays...why not let the best of ALL DISTANCES and surfaces compete for the Roses...?

Then we'd get a slew of threads bitching and moaning about why these speed-and-fade types are taking away spots from bona-fide classic distance runners. "What's he doing here?!?!?!?" type of stuff, ad nauseum.

Nothing prevents sprinters and turfers from entering stakes races for which points are awarded.

VigorsTheGrey
05-08-2017, 07:59 PM
Then we'd get a slew of threads bitching and moaning about why these speed-and-fade types are taking away spots from bona-fide classic distance runners. "What's he doing here?!?!?!?" type of stuff, ad nauseum.

Nothing prevents sprinters and turfers from entering stakes races for which points are awarded.

Good points...!

VigorsTheGrey
05-08-2017, 08:07 PM
What they should do is have splits of the Derby to allow for more three year olds to compete...then the Preakness and Belmont would stand a better chance of filling. And you could have the excitement of the two Derby winners matching up in the Preakness...There could still be a Triple Crown winner. It is the most exciting 2 minutes in sports...Why not double the excitement...they split other Stakes so the idea is not novel...

elhelmete
05-08-2017, 08:11 PM
What they should do is have splits of the Derby to allow for more three year olds to compete...then the Preakness and Belmont would stand a better chance of filling. There could still be a Triple Crown winner. It is the most exciting 2 minutes in sports...Why not double the excitement...they split other Stakes so the idea is not novel...

What possible benefit would this have? Why would it lead, as you suggest, to larger fields for the Preakness and Belmont? If anything, I'd imagine the opposite is true...you'd have a second set of 20 worn out 3-yo trying to run back in 2 weeks.

:confused:

VigorsTheGrey
05-08-2017, 08:14 PM
What possible benefit would this have? Why would it lead, as you suggest, to larger fields for the Preakness and Belmont? If anything, I'd imagine the opposite is true...you'd have a second set of 20 worn out 3-yo trying to run back in 2 weeks.

:confused:

So it is the 2 week interval that is the real issue here then...?

elhelmete
05-08-2017, 08:19 PM
So it is the 2 week interval that is the real issue here then...?

What issue? I don't think there is an issue, at least not one that could be addressed by screwing with the TC.

Heck, lots of nickle claimers don't even run 2 weeks back.

dilanesp
05-08-2017, 09:45 PM
I agree, American racing needs rabbits to chase in the races...there ought to be rabbits provided by the track for just this purpose, so there will always be true pace and so the front end can not be milked for an easy score...

Well, I guess we could attach an electric rabbit to the inside rail for the horses to chase..... :P

VigorsTheGrey
05-08-2017, 10:18 PM
Well, I guess we could attach an electric rabbit to the inside rail for the horses to chase..... :P

Actually, I think it would be fun to just put them in the gate without jockeys and let them go....the first one to cross a certain electronic beam would be declared the winner and so on...they could be funneled back to the corral like rodeo bulls and another set of "freshies" could be loaded up for another race...But I'm sure the riders would object...

señorclipclop
05-08-2017, 10:20 PM
There were plenty of sprinters in this race... State of Honor, Practical Joke, Irish War Cry, McCraken, Untrapped, and Tapwrit all might be best at 7f.

Fager Fan
05-09-2017, 01:34 AM
Then we'd get a slew of threads bitching and moaning about why these speed-and-fade types are taking away spots from bona-fide classic distance runners. "What's he doing here?!?!?!?" type of stuff, ad nauseum.

Nothing prevents sprinters and turfers from entering stakes races for which points are awarded.

You mean like it was before the point system?

No other race in the world has the restrictions of having to score points in certain races to garner entry into another race.

It wasn't broken the way it was.

PowerUpPaynter
05-09-2017, 07:54 AM
There were plenty of sprinters in this race... State of Honor, Practical Joke, Irish War Cry, McCraken, Untrapped, and Tapwrit all might be best at 7f.

Practical Joke is going to be a hell of a sprinter. I see Breeders Cup Champ in his future. Wouldnt be surprised if he went on and had the best career of this crop.

cj
05-09-2017, 10:09 PM
You mean like it was before the point system?

No other race in the world has the restrictions of having to score points in certain races to garner entry into another race.

It wasn't broken the way it was.

Before the points system they used graded stakes earnings, which was a much worse system in my opinion.

nancy4487
05-09-2017, 10:41 PM
Practical Joke is my Hard Spun-doesn't quit

elhelmete
05-09-2017, 10:53 PM
You mean like it was before the point system?

No other race in the world has the restrictions of having to score points in certain races to garner entry into another race.

It wasn't broken the way it was.

Yes, like before the point system.

I didn't mind the old system per se. But IIRC the purses for some graded stakes got way out of wack and skewed the eligibility. You could win a less-tough, less well known prep but with an inflated purse and get in. Didn't the Louisiana tracks figure big in this? I could be wrong about all of it, but that's what I recall.

Fager Fan
05-10-2017, 01:30 AM
Yes, like before the point system.

I didn't mind the old system per se. But IIRC the purses for some graded stakes got way out of wack and skewed the eligibility. You could win a less-tough, less well known prep but with an inflated purse and get in. Didn't the Louisiana tracks figure big in this? I could be wrong about all of it, but that's what I recall.

Yes, but instead we get CD deciding to punish competitors and give them zero points for their big Derby prep. And awarding points to inane foreign races. We had a juvenile champ who could've well not made the field.

We can always fuss about some horse that didn't make the field under any system, but CD is meddling way too much now under this system. This includes fillies running as well. Case in point, had Mandella tried to get points to have the option of running in the Derby by running in the SA Derby. He could've won, or finished 2nd or third, whatever, and his choice to run in the Oaks evaporated. She would've only been given points to run in the Derby, not Oaks, and with the field at 14, she would've been shut out.

It wasn't broke, but they fixed it anyway, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing.

EasyGoer89
05-10-2017, 04:23 AM
Why should we 'subsidize' closers? Makes no sense.

Because closers generally pay bigger prices and horseplayers need bigger prices to have a chance to hold their own.