PHOTO FINISHES

[EMD4ME]

Ok, I'm ready for the abuse.........


Sam Houston race 2, March 10, 2017. The 2 won the race (not the 1 that was posted as the winner). No question, from any angle and no matter what planet you're from.

I'm not smart enough to post the replay or the photo (maybe someone can help me).

I saw the supposed photo. In that photo, neither horse's nose is on the fake finish line (The stupid blue thing they put up).

Regardless of the photo shop, I mean photo....


Watch that live. At NO POINT, in any of the last 50 yards, does the 1 own any part of ANY bob. Even at the wire, the 2 wins by a long nose/maybe a head. Not even close.

There's no stupid angle, NOTHING that can justify the 1 winning. Not even other optical illusions that we've all seen before.

Please, tell me with a straight face, that the 1 won race 2 at Sam Houston and I'll buy you a 6 pack, for your acting skills.

[cj]

https://www.shrp.com/horsemen-info/livereplay-videos

[EMD4ME]

https://www.shrp.com/horsemen-info/livereplay-videos

Thanks, I forgot that they had a website and offer replays.

Can you help me post that photo finish?

I knew this one smelled as soon as the camera person was fixated on the 1 on the gallop out.

Oh, the power of Broberg.


Even on the supposed PHOTO, the 1's nose is not on the fake blue line.

[cj]

It sure looks bad on replay and the mirror is in front of the finish line. The wet track, the bad lighting and the flash make it tough to be definitive though.

[EMD4ME]

It sure looks bad on replay and the mirror is in front of the finish line. The wet track, the bad lighting and the flash make it tough to be definitive though.

I've been betting SAM for 21 years. I know when I win and when I lose.

THAT was repulsive and disgusting. No, I am not using Hyperbole. Dead serious.

[EMD4ME]

Now, I'm more PISSED off.

Had Pick 3: 3 with 2 with 14. Beat 3/5 crappy loser in race 3.

That photo was complete bullcrap. Complete.

[ReplayRandall]

You're going to hate what I'm about to say, but I was able to freeze-frame finish right at the mirror edge, and the 1A won by the narrowest of margins. It was the only instance of the 1A ever being in front, right at the wire....Sorry, sport.

[EMD4ME]

You're going to hate what I'm about to say, but I was able to freeze-frame finish right at the mirror edge, and the 1A won by the narrowest of margins. It was the only instance of the 1A ever being in front, right at the wire....Sorry, sport.

I appreciate the feedback, can you help me post the photo please?

[NorCalGreg]

You lost---sorry

[EMD4ME]

You lost---sorry

Bro, you don't even know where the finish line is....

Maybe you should start there?

[EMD4ME]

19548

[rsetup]

Now, that's a BUSH photo.

[NorCalGreg]

Bro, you don't even know where the finish line is....

Maybe you should start there?

You asked for a photo "bro". Now you want to take out your hissy fit on me?

[EMD4ME]

You asked for a photo "bro". Now you want to take out your hissy fit on me?

That is funny :)

I didn't want a photo, I wanted "the" photo that those crooks put together.

[EMD4ME]

Now, that's a BUSH photo.

It took me an hour but I figured out how to do it (yes, I know I suck at tech).

There wasn't a single part of that last 50 yards where that 1 EVER had the bob/the lead (even by a millimeter).

[Mr. Pick 5]

Ok, I'm ready for the abuse.........


Sam Houston race 2, March 10, 2017. The 2 won the race (not the 1 that was posted as the winner). No question, from any angle and no matter what planet you're from.

I'm not smart enough to post the replay or the photo (maybe someone can help me).

I saw the supposed photo. In that photo, neither horse's nose is on the fake finish line (The stupid blue thing they put up).

Regardless of the photo shop, I mean photo....


Watch that live. At NO POINT, in any of the last 50 yards, does the 1 own any part of ANY bob. Even at the wire, the 2 wins by a long nose/maybe a head. Not even close.

There's no stupid angle, NOTHING that can justify the 1 winning. Not even other optical illusions that we've all seen before.

Please, tell me with a straight face, that the 1 won race 2 at Sam Houston and I'll buy you a 6 pack, for your acting skills.

Saw this race live...pretty certain the :2: won and I didn't think the :1a: ever got there when I saw it live or on the replay....it also took suspiciously long for them to post the winner....doesn't shock me that this has happened however as I've lost several photos over the years that I am certain I won

[EMD4ME]

Saw this race live...pretty certain the :2: won and I didn't think the :1a: ever got there when I saw it live or on the replay....it also took suspiciously long for them to post the winner....doesn't shock me that this has happened however as I've lost several photos over the years that I am certain I won

In the photo I posted (EXACTLY) on the glass, the 2 won.

In the gallop out, the camera person showed the 2, then he/she went to the 1. Chee, I wonder why.

They took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy to long and then come up with that BS photo (with a stupid blue line AND the "official" photo, didn't even have the ONE'S NOSE ON THE WIRE!!!!!!!! You could see seperation between the 1's nose and the wire AS WELL as seperation between the 2's nose and the wire). SO unprofessional.

Ridiculous.

[olddaddy]

Bad camera angles, poor lighting, not seeing exactly where the wire is, no stop action viewing of races at the wire right after race, its tough to see tight finishes. Thats racing here in the old US of A.

[EMD4ME]

Bad camera angles, poor lighting, not seeing exactly where the wire is, no stop action viewing of races at the wire right after race, its tough to see tight finishes. Thats racing here in the old US of A.

You make a good point, there's no HD, no wire cam (like some real tracks have).

It is a joke

[NorCalGreg]

How many people would you guess are involved in this conspiracy? Stewards, technical people, judges?

Add the chartmaker to the list of "crooks"--all getting together to change the outcome of some inconsequential race.

Yeah...that makes sense.

[Mr. Pick 5]

In the photo I posted (EXACTLY) on the glass, the 2 won.

In the gallop out, the camera person showed the 2, then he/she went to the 1. Chee, I wonder why.

They took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy to long and then come up with that BS photo (with a stupid blue line AND the "official" photo, didn't even have the ONE'S NOSE ON THE WIRE!!!!!!!! You could see seperation between the 1's nose and the wire AS WELL as seperation between the 2's nose and the wire). SO unprofessional.

Ridiculous.

I've seen this crap pulled at the likes of Del Mar, Santa Anita, and Churchill over the past 5 years or so, but I'm sure there are more....I'm not saying it's common because it's not, but it has happened....you can't tell me that Peter Miller horse didnt win that race last summer at Del mar, I'm pretty sure there was an entire thread here about it....in addition I've never been convinced songbird didn't win that breeders cup race(this one is debatable, the Del Mar example was pretty definitive that they got it totally wrong)....if it can happen at these tracks, it can happen anywhere

[Mr. Pick 5]

How many people would you guess are involved in this conspiracy? Stewards, technical people, judges?

Add the chartmaker to the list of "crooks"--all getting together to change the outcome of some inconsequential race.

Yeah...that makes sense.

What is the relevance of attaching the chart call?....ofcourse he's going to say that horse won as those were the "official results"....what else was he supposed to say?

[EMD4ME]

How many people would you guess are involved in this conspiracy? Stewards, technical people, judges?

Add the chartmaker to the list of "crooks"--all getting together to change the outcome of some inconsequential race.

Yeah...that makes sense.

Yup. Just like that awesome chart (look it up yourself please) for the 3rd race on Feb 18 at AQU, where the chartcaller said that Hector Diaz didn't ride his horse because the horse was slow to change leads.

One problem....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Horse changed leads perfectly and kept straight as an arrow.......

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135083&highlight=chart&page=163

Post 2445

[EMD4ME]

What is the relevance of attaching the chart call?....ofcourse he's going to say that horse won as those were the "official results"....what else was he supposed to say?

Exactly....No sane person would point to a chart for some sort of knowledge of what happened in a race.

I did that back in the days of no wifi and no internet :lol:

[EMD4ME]

I've seen this crap pulled at the likes of Del Mar, Santa Anita, and Churchill over the past 5 years or so, but I'm sure there are more....I'm not saying it's common because it's not, but it has happened....you can't tell me that Peter Miller horse didnt win that race last summer at Del mar, I'm pretty sure there was an entire thread here about it....in addition I've never been convinced songbird didn't win that breeders cup race(this one is debatable, the Del Mar example was pretty definitive that they got it totally wrong)....if it can happen at these tracks, it can happen anywhere

Real kicker was, the 1 was way overbet, to the point of 1/5 in the pick 4. I hit the remaining 3. Pick 4 paid $1000, if the 2 wins, I say it completely overpays and you get something like $8000.

Real frieken annoying.

[Mr. Pick 5]

Exactly....No sane person would point to a chart for some sort of knowledge of what happened in a race.

I did that back in the days of no wifi and no internet :lol:

I'll take it a step further...we are talking about a man who has stated he prefers to look at charts rather than watch race replays :faint:

[Mr. Pick 5]

Real kicker was, the 1 was way overbet, to the point of 1/5 in the pick 4. I hit the remaining 3. Pick 4 paid $1000, if the 2 wins, I say it completely overpays and you get something like $8000.

Real frieken annoying.

I felt the same way when they dead heated that Peter Miller horse that won that race at Del Mar....beyond obnoxious....this game is hard enough as is, even harder when you're not a track expert insider and they're stacking decks against you left and right

[NorCalGreg]

I've seen this crap pulled at the likes of Del Mar, Santa Anita, and Churchill over the past 5 years or so, but I'm sure there are more....I'm not saying it's common because it's not, but it has happened....you can't tell me that Peter Miller horse didnt win that race last summer at Del mar, I'm pretty sure there was an entire thread here about it....in addition I've never been convinced songbird didn't win that breeders cup race(this one is debatable, the Del Mar example was pretty definitive that they got it totally wrong)....if it can happen at these tracks, it can happen anywhere

Well see...now you are making sense. Mistakes happen everywhere in life...of course there's a chance the official finish of a race was wrong.

That's a hell of a lot different than accusing half-dozen people of being "crooks" in some conspiracy all because you (not you personally) lost a bet.

I think I'm done here. We still friends, EMD :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

Well see...now you are making sense. Mistakes happen everywhere in life...of course there's a chance the official finish of a race was wrong.

That's a hell of a lot different than accusing half-dozen people of being "crooks" in some conspiracy all because you (not you personally) lost a bet.

I think I'm done here. We still friends, EMD :ThmbUp:

Same here man, same here :ThmbUp:

[sour grapes]

why bet when everyone in the industry is conspiring against you?:headbanger:

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I agree here with the previous comment that perhaps the placing judges got the call wrong. I just cant imagine everyone would conspire to put up the wrong number to aid one trainer. The track really doesnt benefit one way or another.

[no breathalyzer]

You're going to hate what I'm about to say, but I was able to freeze-frame finish right at the mirror edge, and the 1A won by the narrowest of margins. It was the only instance of the 1A ever being in front, right at the wire....Sorry, sport.

Sorry EMD4ME i will say agree with this statement.... it look it did look like the 2 had won watching regular speed tho

[no breathalyzer]

There have been some ridiculously close photos in the past couple weeks.. couple against me it starts weighing i n on you after a while

[cj]

I don't think anyone anywhere is conspiring to help Karl Broberg win races. He isn't exactly a beloved guy.

[whisperlunch]

I'm sorry to post this but I'm so glad someone else got screwd. It's refreshing to know I'm not the only one. The 2 won this race. The announcer called the 2
Camera guy followed the 2, it took forever to post the finish. It should have been a dead heat if not the 2.
This is a horrible call.

[rsetup]

I'm sorry to post this but I'm so glad someone else got screwd. It's refreshing to know I'm not the only one. The 2 won this race. The announcer called the 2
Camera guy followed the 2, it took forever to post the finish. It should have been a dead heat if not the 2.
This is a horrible call.

In other words, as is the case for the overwhelming majority of tracks in N.A., they just don't have the technology in place to clearly and quickly show the correct finish in a tight race. Dated equipment, poor camera angles, no clear marking of the finish 'line', etc. are all issues. This isn't HKG where you know if you won a photo a few seconds after they race because they slow it down and put a line at the wire so that you can see which nose hits it first. I know that they always take what seems an inordinate amount of time to post photo finish results at WO. And there are certainly results I don't agree with given my viewing of the race. Last thing I believe, however, is that they're STEALING from me.

LARCENY seems to be a prevailing theme in the racing purview of the original poster. If it's not tracks doctoring photo finish results to screw him out of hits, it's jocks consorting to fix results or jocks not riding to his specification or even, winless apprentices going out of their way not to break their maiden (for whatever reason that makes sense to him). I know I wouldn't be playing this game as seriously as the OP, if I believed that some of these things were true. At the very least, I'd have migrated to HKG ages ago. Transparency is demanded but not pursued, apparently.

[EMD4ME]

Boys boys boys...


When a horse is overbet in many pools, they lose the race, they take 9 minutes to doctor, err, post the result AND THEN they post a photo with neither horse touching a weird (blue and not straight) line, WHAT ELSE would you think than someone had some motivation to make sure the 1A got that call?

Why else would it take 8-9 minutes (felt like an hour) to post the result?

Why else would the photo look so terrible? If you want me to believe it was simple pure incompetence, I'm not buying it.

Was born at night, not last night.

I posted a freeze frame on the real wire. If you can't see that the 2 won the race, I have no clue what to tell you. I love RR and NB but guys, seriously? Look at my post, you don't see the glass right behind the freeze frame? You guys actually see the 1's nose AHEAD of the 2.

I say 99.9999999999999999999% the 2 won by 3 inches. Only a 00.00000000000000000000001% chance of a dead heat.

The 1 winning? , negative 75986893645% chance.

[elhelmete]

I say 99.9999999999999999999% the 2 won by 3 inches. Only a 00.00000000000000000000001% chance of a dead heat.

The 1 winning? , negative 75986893645% chance.

Please tell me you're not a morning line maker too....:lol::lol:

[EMD4ME]

Please tell me you're not a morning line maker too....:lol::lol:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Good one :ThmbUp:

[no breathalyzer]

actually a couple frames before the wire the :1: is fully extended and for one stride is no worse then a dh.. but i understand where you are coming from

[Fox]

Why else would it take 8-9 minutes (felt like an hour) to post the result?

.

For the record, it took about 5:50 to display the result on the toteboard. Long time, yes. 9 minutes, not quite.

[PaceAdvantage]

I posted a freeze frame on the real wire. If you can't see that the 2 won the race, I have no clue what to tell you.What did you post? THIS?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2133921&postcount=11

That's about as crappy a picture as NCG posted...how am I supposed to decipher anything from what anyone has posted thus far?

[EMD4ME]

What did you post? THIS?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2133921&postcount=11

That's about as crappy a picture as NCG posted...how am I supposed to decipher anything from what anyone has posted thus far?

1) welcome to Sam Houston :lol:

2) even with that crappy pic, you can see them hit the mirror with the 2 in front on the rail.

[vince]

I've been on this finish line around 50 times, the finish line from the view we see on the replay actually slants to the right about 2 ft from the top to the bottom of the track, it's not even close to being straight.

You actually have to be ahead a bit if you are on the right to be a tie so based on my past experience at the finish line the #2 won without a doubt watching the replay.

[EMD4ME]

I've been on this finish line around 50 times, the finish line from the view we see on the replay actually slants to the right about 2 ft from the top to the bottom of the track, it's not even close to being straight.

You actually have to be ahead a bit if you are on the right to be a tie so based on my past experience at the finish line the #2 won without a doubt watching the replay.

Does Sam Houston actually have a photo finish database?

[arw629]

Saratoga harness race 1 March 11th...the 2 looked a winner and the 4 was put up...anyone bored want to watch the race and let me know if I'm crazy?

[AskinHaskin]

LARCENY seems to be a prevailing theme in the racing purview of the original poster. If it's not tracks doctoring photo finish results to screw him out of hits, it's jocks consorting to fix results or jocks not riding to his specification or even, winless apprentices going out of their way not to break their maiden (for whatever reason that makes sense to him).

I know I wouldn't be playing this game as seriously as the OP, if I believed that some of these things were true. At the very least, I'd have migrated to HKG ages ago. Transparency is demanded but not pursued, apparently.



I wouldn't term it "seriously".


He sees win where everyone else sees second.


He sees herding where they have no herds.


When he wins, it was his genius, but when he loses it was somebody else's fault every time.



And on his very best days he talks about mouthwash here all night.



.

[EMD4ME]

Saratoga harness race 1 March 11th...the 2 looked a winner and the 4 was put up...anyone bored want to watch the race and let me know if I'm crazy?

I don't know harness lines too well but that reminds me of the Yonkers line and the old Roosevelt line.

It's like they place the camera in a slanted position on purpose :bang:

[EMD4ME]

In other words, as is the case for the overwhelming majority of tracks in N.A., they just don't have the technology in place to clearly and quickly show the correct finish in a tight race. Dated equipment, poor camera angles, no clear marking of the finish 'line', etc. are all issues. This isn't HKG where you know if you won a photo a few seconds after they race because they slow it down and put a line at the wire so that you can see which nose hits it first. I know that they always take what seems an inordinate amount of time to post photo finish results at WO. And there are certainly results I don't agree with given my viewing of the race. Last thing I believe, however, is that they're STEALING from me.

LARCENY seems to be a prevailing theme in the racing purview of the original poster. If it's not tracks doctoring photo finish results to screw him out of hits, it's jocks consorting to fix results or jocks not riding to his specification or even, winless apprentices going out of their way not to break their maiden (for whatever reason that makes sense to him). I know I wouldn't be playing this game as seriously as the OP, if I believed that some of these things were true. At the very least, I'd have migrated to HKG ages ago. Transparency is demanded but not pursued, apparently.


How's that challenge with Thaskalos going ? :pound::pound::lol::lol:

[EMD4ME]

I wouldn't term it "seriously".


He sees win where everyone else sees second.


He sees herding where they have no herds.


When he wins, it was his genius, but when he loses it was somebody else's fault every time.



And on his very best days he talks about mouthwash here all night.



.

You were correct PA. I never ever have been Trolled here on this site. :lol::lol::lol:



For someone who has no clue what a lead change looks like, you sure do speak too much on a horse forum. I wonder what retread you are, actually, no, I don't care enough to wonder ;)

[arw629]

I don't know harness lines too well but that reminds me of the Yonkers line and the old Roosevelt line.

It's like they place the camera in a slanted position on purpose :bang:

I bet the 2...

[EMD4ME]

I bet the 2...

I'm sorry arw629.....

[NorCalGreg]

What did you post? THIS?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2133921&postcount=11

That's about as crappy a picture as NCG posted...how am I supposed to decipher anything from what anyone has posted thus far?

haha....the man said he didn't know how to post a freeze-frame pic.....so I tried my best, that was as close as I could get to the wire :D.

[charm city whizz]

Saratoga harness race 1 March 11th...the 2 looked a winner and the 4 was put up...anyone bored want to watch the race and let me know if I'm crazy?



I do know that at Saratoga harness in order for the outside horse to win a photo he has to be between half a head and a nose in in front, more if there is a lot of space in between

It's almost the complete opposite of Yonkers just not as severe

[charm city whizz]

Ok, I'm ready for the abuse.........


Sam Houston race 2, March 10, 2017. The 2 won the race (not the 1 that was posted as the winner). No question, from any angle and no matter what planet you're from.

I'm not smart enough to post the replay or the photo (maybe someone can help me).

I saw the supposed photo. In that photo, neither horse's nose is on the fake finish line (The stupid blue thing they put up).

Regardless of the photo shop, I mean photo....


Watch that live. At NO POINT, in any of the last 50 yards, does the 1 own any part of ANY bob. Even at the wire, the 2 wins by a long nose/maybe a head. Not even close.

There's no stupid angle, NOTHING that can justify the 1 winning. Not even other optical illusions that we've all seen before.

Please, tell me with a straight face, that the 1 won race 2 at Sam Houston and I'll buy you a 6 pack, for your acting skills.

This race is a complete stinkbomb.....2 wins the race and it's not even close

[EMD4ME]

This race is a complete stinkbomb.....2 wins the race and it's not even close

exactly........

[EMD4ME]

haha....the man said he didn't know how to post a freeze-frame pic.....so I tried my best, that was as close as I could get to the wire :D.

I didn't know how to post a you tube video :(

PA had to help me.

I finally figured it out.

At least my pic was right on the wire. Yours was 5 feet past the wire.

Have some sympathy, will ya ! I'm getting used to the new site.

[PaceAdvantage]

You were correct PA. I never ever have been Trolled here on this site. :lol::lol::lol:Someone who completely disagrees with you is not a troll. Someone who completely disagrees with you and insults you isn't necessarily a troll either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AskinHaskin isn't someone who interacts with you all the time...following you from thread to thread, telling you the same thing over and over again, is he? THAT would be a troll.

[EMD4ME]

Someone who completely disagrees with you is not a troll. Someone who completely disagrees with you and insults you isn't necessarily a troll either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AskinHaskin isn't someone who interacts with you all the time...following you from thread to thread, telling you the same thing over and over again, is he? THAT would be a troll.

1) follows me in thread to thread - check
2) keeps saying Diaz Diaz Diaz -check
3) is subtle and sometimes blunt while trying to only get a reaction out of me-check

But don't worry about it. I was just pointing it out, not asking for any help.

He just doesn't matter.

[PaceAdvantage]

1) follows me in thread to thread - check
2) keeps saying Diaz Diaz Diaz -check
3) is subtle and sometimes blunt while trying to only get a reaction out of me-check

But don't worry about it. I was just pointing it out, not asking for any help.

He just doesn't matter.Ummm...no...that's AltonKelsey...

So, do you want me to repeat what I wrote earlier? Or do you get it now?

[EMD4ME]

Ummm...no...that's AltonKelsey...

So, do you want me to repeat what I wrote earlier? Or do you get it now?

Does "OOPS" cover it ? :lol::lol::lol::pout: :pout:

My deepest apologies. To Askin. Two Syllables by two syllables. Starts with an A, OH forget it, I have ZERO EXCUSE.

My fault......

[Andy Asaro]

I attended the meeting at Del Mar over their photo finish controversy.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/close-call-distorted-online-photo-raised-questions-del-mar-dead-heat/

The photo finish system is not 100%. It may be 99% accurate but on this day they got it wrong and there is no doubt in my mind.

Some months later the CHRB had a representative from the Photo finish company give a power point presentation. The guy screwed it up and it didn't work. Then he started talking. The so called "expert" began speaking with a quote from Wikepedia about how the system works. I kid you not. Then the CHRB Board Members all said that the people complaining about what happened are basically out of their minds or just causing trouble. Then Mike Wellman, the part Owner of Well Measured stands up and refutes what they just said. He knows he won the race and so did Peter Miller.

I can go into more detail but the audio of the meeting is on the CHRB meeting archives and anyone can listen.

[Racetrack Playa]

Hi Andy , Just wondering ,What was the date of that meeting?
http://www.selectstreaming.com/live/chrb/archives.php

[Andy Asaro]

Hi Andy , Just wondering ,What was the date of that meeting?
http://www.selectstreaming.com/live/chrb/archives.php

I was too lazy to look for it. I'll try to find out.

[Andy Asaro]

Thursday January 26th. It's item #8

http://www.chrb.ca.gov/Board/board_packages/Jan2017.pdf

[Racetrack Playa]

I was too lazy to look for it. I'll try to find out.
Thanks Andy

[Andy Asaro]

CHRB meeting archives click the link. January 26th item 8

http://www.selectstreaming.com/live/chrb/archives.php

[toddbowker]

I posted a freeze frame on the real wire.

Well, no you actually didn't. You posted a freeze frame from the pan camera at a spot you "think" is the actual wire.

Two problems with that.

1) The pan camera is clearly positioned to the left of the finish line, which is the case at nearly every racetrack, because the placing judges and photo finish camera are actually on the finish line. That will always make the inside horse look further "ahead" than the outside horse, even when it isn't.

2) Unless you know exactly where the actual photo finish camera is pointed, you have no way of knowing if your freeze frame was the "real" wire, even if the pan camera had been perfectly aligned to the finish line.

I can't believe I have to keep coming here and explaining how photo finish cameras and the placing of races actually work .... :bang:

[EMD4ME]

Well, no you actually didn't. You posted a freeze frame from the pan camera at a spot you "think" is the actual wire.

Two problems with that.

1) The pan camera is clearly positioned to the left of the finish line, which is the case at nearly every racetrack, because the placing judges and photo finish camera are actually on the finish line. That will always make the inside horse look further "ahead" than the outside horse, even when it isn't.

2) Unless you know exactly where the actual photo finish camera is pointed, you have no way of knowing if your freeze frame was the "real" wire, even if the pan camera had been perfectly aligned to the finish line.

I can't believe I have to keep coming here and explaining how photo finish cameras and the placing of races actually work .... :bang:

Hello.....knock knock knock... I was replying to NCG's pan freeze shot which was 6 FEET AFTER THE WIRE.

Don't take stuff out of context and try and make yourself be a hero by knocking the always hated EMD.

I know that's not the actual photo. Since Sam H doesn't provide photo's, I was giving the best shot possible.

You people never cease to amaze me. :bang:

[toddbowker]

Hello.....knock knock knock... I was replying to NCG's pan freeze shot which was 6 FEET AFTER THE WIRE.

Don't take stuff out of context and try and make yourself be a hero by knocking the always hated EMD.

I know that's not the actual photo. Since Sam H doesn't provide photo's, I was giving the best shot possible.

You people never cease to amaze me. :bang:

Not a hero, just someone who has conservatively placed over 15,000 races as a placing judge. Someone who actually knows what goes on in the judges stand and knows your conspiracy theory is flat out wrong.

In the photo I posted (EXACTLY) on the glass, the 2 won.

Here's the second reference. There's no "out of context". You said in two posts that the two won based on what you saw and attempted to offer up the screenshot you posted to prove it.

I just clearly explained why what you saw was incorrect as far as the actual placing of the race goes.

It's not the "best shot possible". It may be the best shot from a low resolution camera which is off axis, and screenshotted from a compressed streaming video replay. In other words, the worst shot possible ... which still means nothing when it comes to actually determining the order of finish.

Believe me or not, I don't care. If you honestly think that at a minimum, 3 placing judges, 3 stewards and a photo finish operator are going to risk their entire careers just to collude together to screw you out of a P4, then you should probably just stop betting now.

[cj]

Believe me or not, I don't care. If you honestly think that at a minimum, 3 placing judges, 3 stewards and a photo finish operator are going to risk their entire careers just to collude together to screw you out of a P4, then you should probably just stop betting now.

I don't doubt any of this for a second. I do have a question though, why are tracks still running things like it is 1964 in this regard? Is it just a money thing? Seems to me like the expense of putting in better equipment would be well worth it just to get rid of the any hint of screwing up photos. I watch racing overseas and there is never a doubt about the placings once they show the overhead with the camera on the wire. Not putting photos online is pretty poor practice too. Only a few tracks actually post them.

[SharpCat]

I don't doubt any of this for a second. I do have a question though, why are tracks still running things like it is 1964 in this regard? Is it just a money thing? Seems to me like the expense of putting in better equipment would be well worth it just to get rid of the any hint of screwing up photos. I watch racing overseas and there is never a doubt about the placings once they show the overhead with the camera on the wire. Not putting photos online is pretty poor practice too. Only a few tracks actually post them.

Hell Thistledowns show's the overhead with the camera on the wire. What's the excuse for every other track that doesn't?

[Andy Asaro]

At the meeting at Del Mar we started in the Stewards office. A few minutes in I could see that Scott Chaney was a little uncomfortable with the call so I asked him what he thought. Apparently the day it happened he wasn't there and Louie Jaregui sat in his spot. He said that when he got in and saw the photo on his computer he was somewhat skeptical of the dead heat but when he saw the printed photo it looked more like a dead heat. He's right there was a difference between the screen shot and the printed photo. Wouldn't the screen shot be more accurate? Then we went up to the Stewards booth to see what they do up there. That screen shot was closer but IMO there was still a small space. While we were they they moved the race back and forth in thousands of a second to see where the noses were immediately before the wire and after.

I gotta tell you that the technology needs to be updated. If I recall they didn't even have high def monitors.

Anyway they got that wrong IMO but its still accurate 99% of the time.

[toddbowker]

I don't doubt any of this for a second. I do have a question though, why are tracks still running things like it is 1964 in this regard? Is it just a money thing? Seems to me like the expense of putting in better equipment would be well worth it just to get rid of the any hint of screwing up photos. I watch racing overseas and there is never a doubt about the placings once they show the overhead with the camera on the wire. Not putting photos online is pretty poor practice too. Only a few tracks actually post them.
Actually they aren't. When I first became a placing judge they were still using black and white film. It was the mid 90's when the digital systems first started getting used, and they were black and white. Now they are color, and the lenses have improved greatly.

You're really talking about two different issues. The photo finish equipment and the CCTV equipment.

The photo finish gear is already high resolution nearly everywhere, but unfortunately even with the best equipment there is, there will always be races that are difficult to call. Horses with covered up noses, horses whose noses are the same color as the track surface, bad lighting, bad weather, etc. Compared to film, the new systems are capable of splitting horses down to the pixel level. I called a lot more dead heats in the days of film because they weren't as accurate.

As for the CCTV, there are two things that would help a lot. First, converting over to HDTV cameras and switching equipment, and paying for an HD uplink. Easy for the CD, NYRA and Stronach Groups of the world, not so much for struggling racetracks. Even at today's prices, it's a ton of money. Same for the HD uplink. RCN can do it for anyone, but from what I have been told, it is something around 3x-4x the price of the SD uplink, and you still need to have outlets that have converted their gear to HD to see the benefit.

And that will only marginally benefit the compressed streaming video at most ADWs.

You also have an issue with camera placement. Many tracks don't have 3 story press boxes. The placing judges and photo finish camera have to be on the wire. In the old days of film, the cameras and darkroom were on the second floor immediately above the placing judges stand. That usually meant the pan camera and announcer were in the next two offices up the stretch (to the left when looking at the track). This is why track announcers miss their calls if they try to split horses when they shouldn't, and why you can't use the pan camera to place with. They are both off axis This is only fixable if there is enough physical space.

[EasyGoer89]

Well, no you actually didn't. You posted a freeze frame from the pan camera at a spot you "think" is the actual wire.

Two problems with that.

1) The pan camera is clearly positioned to the left of the finish line, which is the case at nearly every racetrack, because the placing judges and photo finish camera are actually on the finish line. That will always make the inside horse look further "ahead" than the outside horse, even when it isn't.

2) Unless you know exactly where the actual photo finish camera is pointed, you have no way of knowing if your freeze frame was the "real" wire, even if the pan camera had been perfectly aligned to the finish line.

I can't believe I have to keep coming here and explaining how photo finish cameras and the placing of races actually work .... :bang:

Most major t bred tracks either have the camera on the line or before the line, golden gate is a great example. At GG, the outside horse looks further ahead, in order to safely win at GG (visually I'm talking) you really need the outside horse to appear to be at least a long neck in front. Is there a major track you're thinking of where the camera is AFTER the wire and gives a visual advantage to the inside runner?

As for the race in question here, it appears that the outside horses nose is under the thick line, now why not make the edge of the thick line on the outside horses nose, wouldn't that move the line out?

I think the more high res photo that's not shown to the public can be of use if you can't determine a winner from this 'low res' photo, but this photo clearly suggests the outside horse won clean as part of his nose is hidden while the inside horse is not.

Is there a reason that on the photo shown to the public, the line is so thick? I think that line could be much thinner, no?

[PaceAdvantage]

The thickness of the line doesn't matter...only the far left edge counts anyway, so the line could be as thick as half the photo for all I care.

[SoCalCircuit]

So this photo probably cost me around a 25k pick 5 today in the ninth at Gulfstream. I'm still not seeing it honestly - I'm only seeing the 2's nose where the red ends.

[ReplayRandall]

So this photo probably cost me around a 25k pick 5 today in the ninth at Gulfstream. I'm still not seeing it honestly - I'm only seeing the 2's nose where the red ends.
Nice shot of the finish line pole....Genius, pure genius.

[mountainman]

The thickness of the line doesn't matter...only the far left edge counts anyway, so the line could be as thick as half the photo for all I care.

Long ago, when low-def, sometimes fuzzy pics left potential ambiguity about extremely tight results, the occasional practice was to avoid controversy by using a thick wire to simulate dead-heat. This was done by "burying " the actual winner just a fraction of an inch until the line touched both noses, but the thick wire prevented the winner from poking through.

At the outset of my career , I worked mainly as a placing judge and called the photo guy out on this. Given one NANO-meter of margin, my vote was to split them. And I relished some controversy.

[SoCalCircuit]

Nice shot of the finish line pole....Genius, pure genius.

Not following. I'd prefer to look at the official photo shot but I can't find it...

[Racetrack Playa]

Not following. I'd prefer to look at the official photo shot but I can't find it...
@20:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLlvW5LNUHCIyKoTaaaSzZ9VamXSJAg75R&v=H2gv4tsf0q8

[Robert Fischer]

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2vtdtzm.jpg.

[SoCalCircuit]

@20:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLlvW5LNUHCIyKoTaaaSzZ9VamXSJAg75R&v=H2gv4tsf0q8

Thanks for the link. Once of the few time where I finish watching a race thinking I'm good, to the rude awakening that I apparently misread the finish.