Once a cheater.....

[taxicab]

always a cheater. :eek:

http://www.drf.com/news/rodriguez-gets-25-days-banamine-positives

[Tom]

And what a punishment - his brother runs the stable. :rolleyes:
We will continue to have cheaters operating until they start wanting to stop it.

I wonder if he gets his needles on an employee discount?

[Stillriledup]

And what a punishment - his brother runs the stable. :rolleyes:
We will continue to have cheaters operating until they start wanting to stop it.

I wonder if he gets his needles on an employee discount?

He can head to South Beach with his swim trunks, sip pina coladas while training from the cellphone. No risk of losing clients or cash as there's no penalties in place for owners who patronize "rules breakers".

[Relwob Owner]

always a cheater. :eek:

http://www.drf.com/news/rodriguez-gets-25-days-banamine-positives


Ban giving horses to family members

Punish owners in some way.

I know, I know, the owners have no idea of what the trainers do and if they are up to nefarious things.......yeah, right. I think honest owners are more than happy to roll dice in any way if it means that owners that use juicers get punished when trainers are caught.

Between the stewards making DQ decisions and those enforcing these violations, I am just dumbfounded sometimes at what is done in this game most times.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think Indiana bans this practice.

[Stillriledup]

Ban giving horses to family members

Punish owners in some way.

I know, I know, the owners have no idea of what the trainers do and if they are up to nefarious things.......yeah, right. I think honest owners are more than happy to roll dice in any way if it means that owners that use juicers get punished when trainers are caught.

Between the stewards making DQ decisions and those enforcing these violations, I am just dumbfounded sometimes at what is done in this game most times.

You know what? I agree to punish the owner in some way.

In any one individual specific case, in advance, they can say they don't know. BUT, once these incidents pile up, there's a past performance record of owners who become "usual suspects" who always seem to patronize trainers who come out of nowhere to win 35%.

Its ok to say you don't know, but once you become a usual suspect and the trainer you patronize keeps breaking rules, you can't claim ignorance.

[chadk66]

how ironic is it that this penalty is less than the prior with the same number of overages. I think they got it backwards.

[luisbe]

how ironic is it that this penalty is less than the prior with the same number of overages. I think they got it backwards.
They make you better price for quantity :lol:

[Relwob Owner]

how ironic is it that this penalty is less than the prior with the same number of overages. I think they got it backwards.


Ironic and just plain sad.....backwards seems to be the norm. Just amazing

[Stillriledup]

Ironic and just plain sad.....backwards seems to be the norm. Just amazing

Maybe they have decided that kicking people out of racing won't increase betting handle enough to offset the financial costs of all the lawsuits.

[Relwob Owner]

Maybe they have decided that kicking people out of racing won't increase betting handle enough to offset the financial costs of all the lawsuits.

Interesting thought about the potential lawsuits impacting things. It would be sad to think that the tracks have so little power but I guess it could be the reality.

[Stillriledup]

Interesting thought about the potential lawsuits impacting things. It would be sad to think that the tracks have so little power but I guess it could be the reality.

They weight out all the financials and kicking guys out doesn't make financial sense as we bettors don't seem to stop betting if AC Avila only gets 60 days. In fact, we poured cash into the Masochistic race today, we bet with both fists and didn't abstain because a shady character had a horse in the race.

[Ruffian1]

I guess I have been gone too long when I read that Banamine is a therapeutic drug.
It sure was NOT when I was around. Not in Md.
It was given for horses that tied up or were in immediate need of pain relief from severe acute pain not normal aches and pains and running within 5 days was not an option. You were not worried about running, you were worried about helping your horse immediately. Unreal.

[chadk66]

I guess I have been gone too long when I read that Banamine is a therapeutic drug.
It sure was NOT when I was around. Not in Md.
It was given for horses that tied up or were in immediate need of pain relief from severe acute pain not normal aches and pains and running within 5 days was not an option. You were not worried about running, you were worried about helping your horse immediately. Unreal.that's exactly what I was thinking. And I didn't even remember it was an NSAID. I'd have to question that, don't believe it is. It's a pain killer not an anti-inflamatory as far as I know.

[Ruffian1]

that's exactly what I was thinking. And I didn't even remember it was an NSAID. I'd have to question that, don't believe it is. It's a pain killer not an anti-inflamatory as far as I know.

As you know, it can work in well under an hour instead of a shot of bute.

For severe pain, both would be given. Banamine for the immediate relief and bute for the longer term relief.
Damn Chad, WTF has happened? The more I read , the more I feel lucky that I made the decision I made. Unless you are training elite horses, the game is all over the place it seems.
Maybe it's just me. I don't know.

[chadk66]

As you know, it can work in well under an hour instead of a shot of bute.

For severe pain, both would be given. Banamine for the immediate relief and bute for the longer term relief.
Damn Chad, WTF has happened? The more I read , the more I feel lucky that I made the decision I made. Unless you are training elite horses, the game is all over the place it seems.
Maybe it's just me. I don't know.The moral integrity of the game has eroded at an insane pace. Very few respect the animal anymore. Owners included. It's far easier (less work) to inject than actually train/condition. Add into the equation where we have come with synthetic drugs, etc. the sky has become the limit. And there has been no deterrent to using the stuff because there are no price to pay for doing it. And nobody is willing to stand up for the integrity of the sport. It just amazes me.

[Stillriledup]

The moral integrity of the game has eroded at an insane pace. Very few respect the animal anymore. Owners included. It's far easier (less work) to inject than actually train/condition. Add into the equation where we have come with synthetic drugs, etc. the sky has become the limit. And there has been no deterrent to using the stuff because there are no price to pay for doing it. And nobody is willing to stand up for the integrity of the sport. It just amazes me.

The leaders don't view this as a "Sport" they view it as they are running a gambling enterprise where people just make bets and they collect a percentage of those bets. It just so happens that horses running in a circle is the WAY that they get to collect those bets. These are gambling companies not "horse racing" companies....so their goal is to collect "fees" on the gambling. To care about the horses would entail them to actually be invested emotionally into the product...when all they care about is the gambling part of it. And it shows.

All the integrity stuff isn't something they want to spend money on because the math doesn't work...they haven't seen that people bet more money. Did bettors in NY raise their bets when Dutrow got kicked out for 10 years? No, people bet the same they normally bet, they went on with business as usual.

We complain about integrity and slaps on the wrists for cheaters, but will that get you to bet more? If you aren't going to bet more, why does "racing" need to spend time and effort on "extras"? Its easy to spend their money, but as long as bettors don't increase their bets if certain trainers get kicked out, there's no incentive to do anything but keep the status quo and keep collecting the takeouts on the wagers.

[chadk66]

The leaders don't view this as a "Sport" they view it as they are running a gambling enterprise where people just make bets and they collect a percentage of those bets. It just so happens that horses running in a circle is the WAY that they get to collect those bets. These are gambling companies not "horse racing" companies....so their goal is to collect "fees" on the gambling. To care about the horses would entail them to actually be invested emotionally into the product...when all they care about is the gambling part of it. And it shows.

All the integrity stuff isn't something they want to spend money on because the math doesn't work...they haven't seen that people bet more money. Did bettors in NY raise their bets when Dutrow got kicked out for 10 years? No, people bet the same they normally bet, they went on with business as usual.

We complain about integrity and slaps on the wrists for cheaters, but will that get you to bet more? If you aren't going to bet more, why does "racing" need to spend time and effort on "extras"? Its easy to spend their money, but as long as bettors don't increase their bets if certain trainers get kicked out, there's no incentive to do anything but keep the status quo and keep collecting the takeouts on the wagers.be careful blaming it on the handicappers :cool:

[Stillriledup]

be careful blaming it on the handicappers :cool:

I could be like Milli Vanilli and blame it on the rain. :D

[jk3521]

The Gustavo Rodriguez era starts tomorrow at Aqueduct, let's see what happens.

[Stillriledup]

The Gustavo Rodriguez era starts tomorrow at Aqueduct, let's see what happens.

We have gone thru this already, wasn't it in 2013 at some point? What's the point of the suspension if the guy can train from the cellphone while laying on the beach sipping pina coladas without any chance of losing one dollar or one client? Seems like a reward rather than a punishment.

[RacingFan1992]

Here is an idea get rid of all of the cheaters and liars in horse racing but that won't happen anytime soon. You get caught cheating and your banned for life, no suspension, LIFE. Sorry bout the ranting.

[Relwob Owner]

Here is an idea get rid of all of the cheaters and liars in horse racing but that won't happen anytime soon. You get caught cheating and your banned for life, no suspension, LIFE. Sorry bout the ranting.

That makes way too much sense

[Stillriledup]

That makes way too much sense

What tracks need is do is open up a kickstarter account and get racing fans to donate to the account and the money donated to the account goes strictly to lawsuits that the tracks have to fight when they kick out the bad guys and the bad guys sue. Tracks haven't seen that kicking out a bad guy here and there creates larger betting handles, so they don't want to risk battling lawsuits when kicking out crooks doesn't get gamblers to bet more money.

[dirty moose]

What tracks need is do is open up a kickstarter account and get racing fans to donate to the account and the money donated to the account goes strictly to lawsuits that the tracks have to fight when they kick out the bad guys and the bad guys sue. Tracks haven't seen that kicking out a bad guy here and there creates larger betting handles, so they don't want to risk battling lawsuits when kicking out crooks doesn't get gamblers to bet more money.

Donate? That was sarcasm, yes?

[Relwob Owner]

What tracks need is do is open up a kickstarter account and get racing fans to donate to the account and the money donated to the account goes strictly to lawsuits that the tracks have to fight when they kick out the bad guys and the bad guys sue. Tracks haven't seen that kicking out a bad guy here and there creates larger betting handles, so they don't want to risk battling lawsuits when kicking out crooks doesn't get gamblers to bet more money.


Im not so sure about your theory that tracks are afraid of lawsuits. It may be a small reason but if they are and they don't have more financial bandwidth than individual trainers, that would surprise me. I think it leans more towards the idea of general ineptness, not caring, and realizing that fighting these trainers means more work.

[Stillriledup]

Im not so sure about your theory that tracks are afraid of lawsuits. It may be a small reason but if they are and they don't have more financial bandwidth than individual trainers, that would surprise me. I think it leans more towards the idea of general ineptness, not caring, and realizing that fighting these trainers means more work.

Another possibility is bad publicity, but i don't think they realize that brushing things under the rug is worse publicity than outing the cheaters and kicking them out or prosecuting them.

The perception that you have honest racing is the best publicity there can be, why more tracks don't shoot to be the "most honest track" is a mystery that hopefully can be answered one day.

[Stillriledup]

Donate? That was sarcasm, yes?

You'd be surprised how many people give money to kickstarter projects and in the name of getting rid of the cheats, i'd bet some people would donate to that. How much i don't know, hopefully a lot.

[Relwob Owner]

Another possibility is bad publicity, but i don't think they realize that brushing things under the rug is worse publicity than outing the cheaters and kicking them out or prosecuting them.

The perception that you have honest racing is the best publicity there can be, why more tracks don't shoot to be the "most honest track" is a mystery that hopefully can be answered one day.


Bad publicity? Not letting cheaters exist in the game would be the best publicity racing could hope for

[chadk66]

Here is an idea get rid of all of the cheaters and liars in horse racing but that won't happen anytime soon. You get caught cheating and your banned for life, no suspension, LIFE. Sorry bout the ranting.that'll never happen. one disgruntled employee could end a trainers career with the stroke of a syringe. not happening.

[Stillriledup]

that'll never happen. one disgruntled employee could end a trainers career with the stroke of a syringe. not happening.

I don't think anyone is suggesting a trainer who's the cleanest guy in the game who has one violation be banned, i think the "usual suspects" who have dozens of violations are the ones who have to worry.

[chadk66]

I don't think anyone is suggesting a trainer who's the cleanest guy in the game who has one violation be banned, i think the "usual suspects" who have dozens of violations are the ones who have to worry.good, I thought maybe the train left the tracks

[rastajenk]

I think it has, actually.

[Ruffian1]

Until the punishment fits the actual crime, this entire guidelines thing is a joke. The people on the backside know whats going on. The clean vets hate the crooked vets. The clean trainers hate the crooked trainers. You spend every single day of your life in an enclosed environment, otherwise known as the backside, and after a while, it all comes into focus. It's a place where everybody knows everybody else's business. They know who you took to lunch or dinner. It's gossip central.They know everything and I mean everything. Including who is cheating both trainers and vets and husbands and wives while we are at it.

A jock with a buzzer gets 5 years. 1st time offender, ok, I can handle that. But when he has been caught before? Really?
Meanwhile, Ricky D. gets 10 years, and the entire backside community knows he was not a drug trainer. But the high up stuff shirts that got tired of his antics and profound honesty( did he just say steroids on national TV after winning the Preakness?) give him 10 years after the most obvious plant job that was sooo 1975, it was comical when I first heard about it.
A high school dropout, Rick knows one thing, the track. But make no mistake, he is one of the best pure horsemen I know and he trained circles around a lot of others. His aloof attitude, which I would never condone, got the best of him. He was a knucklehead, and brought problems on himself. However, he did not bring on himself what he ultimately received. That ruling is a disgrace.

Then we have this guy in Md. who has his wife as the vet. Unreal. And when he gets shown the gate, he goes to Penn. Nat., where many a cheater got there start.

It's a mess with no end in sight. Seems that's just the way the track owners and racing management want it, because if they did not, it's really not a hard fix at all.

[jk3521]

Excuse me , but I think that thoughts of cheating in this sport is part of the mystique of horse racing. Movies have always portrayed handlers as holding back horses for a larger payoff and other shady doings. We would not have much to talk and b_tch about any longer and we wouldn't have "angles" to include in our handicapping. I say leave horse racing as it is. If it should all of a sudden become "honest" it would not bring new fans in the game anyway! Just saying.

(Of course this does not include anything which might harm any animal physically or mentally)

[Ruffian1]

Excuse me , but I think that thoughts of cheating in this sport is part of the mystique of horse racing. Movies have always portrayed handlers as holding back horses for a larger payoff and other shady doings. We would not have much to talk and b_tch about any longer and we wouldn't have "angles" to include in our handicapping. I say leave horse racing as it is. If it should all of a sudden become "honest" it would not bring new fans in the game anyway! Just saying.

(Of course this does not include anything which might harm any animal physically or mentally)


Well, it seems we are talking about two different things.
What I am talking about is peoples lives and careers being either ruined , held back or manipulated by a few crooks.
For those that are directly affected by those crooks, it is disgusting to them that it just runs wild.
There are plenty of handicapping angles to play without turning a blind eye to what is right.
IMO the game deserves better than that, but that's just me.

Not to worry though, the game will never be totally honest. No game played with money is.

[magwell]

Not to worry though, the game will never be totally honest. No game played with money is.[/QUOTE]...........:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp :

[Relwob Owner]

Excuse me , but I think that thoughts of cheating in this sport is part of the mystique of horse racing. Movies have always portrayed handlers as holding back horses for a larger payoff and other shady doings. We would not have much to talk and b_tch about any longer and we wouldn't have "angles" to include in our handicapping. I say leave horse racing as it is. If it should all of a sudden become "honest" it would not bring new fans in the game anyway! Just saying.

(Of course this does not include anything which might harm any animal physically or mentally)


There are many, many things that add up to the mystique of horse racing and why I love it so much and "thoughts of cheating" never has been one of them.

[chadk66]

Ruffian and I could go to work for the feds on a national racing/drug policy and we could fix this in a few weeks. But I don't think either one of us would see the light of day 48 hrs. after the rules were implemented.

[jk3521]

There are many, many things that add up to the mystique of horse racing and why I love it so much and "thoughts of cheating" never has been one of them.
Not saying it is right , just saying it's always been and always will be. I don't remember there being any uproar way back when Oscar was working his magic in the early 1980's or Pete Ferriola or any "miracle worker" . I think one difference is back then it might have been just talk around the OTB and now it's on message boards such as this one across the internet. Everybody seems so righteous now days. :faint:

[Stillriledup]

Not saying it is right , just saying it's always been and always will be. I don't remember there being any uproar way back when Oscar was working his magic in the early 1980's or Pete Ferriola or any "miracle worker" . I think one difference is back then it might have been just talk around the OTB and now it's on message boards such as this one across the internet. Everybody seems so righteous now days. :faint:

I don't know if its righteous to want clean racing. Maybe since that's the way its "Always been" makes it ok, we are desensitized by it.

[Relwob Owner]

Not saying it is right , just saying it's always been and always will be. I don't remember there being any uproar way back when Oscar was working his magic in the early 1980's or Pete Ferriola or any "miracle worker" . I think one difference is back then it might have been just talk around the OTB and now it's on message boards such as this one across the internet. Everybody seems so righteous now days. :faint:


I dont think people are being righteous. They just see blatant corruption and don't like it. Im sure people have felt the exact same way about it for years but as you say, the internet makes it more visible.

I disagree that it is any way related to the "mystique" and can't imagine too many people view it that way. It is one of the worst parts, if not the worst, in the sport. It is immoral, unethical, dishonest and it endangers the lives of the horses and jockeys who ride in the races.

[Stillriledup]

Its amazing to me how there isn't one person in power in horse racing who is so offended by the cheating and the bad perception that he doesn't make it his lifes work just to not only get the cheaters out of the game, but to try and get them prosecuted for race fixing (or murdering horses in some cases)

Some jurisdictions have race fixers and horse murderers handed to them on a silver platter and theres either a minimial fine and suspension and or no fine or no suspension...so, racing speaks loud and clear that its ok to do this stuff and we won't really care too much..they're too busy sticking trainers with 10 year suspensions for being loudmouths and giving jocks 5 year suspensions for buzzers when trainers are sticking lethal chemicals into horses, killing them, and are lauded as heroes.

Paddock interviews are all smiles and good times and its all forgotten we won't ever ask the hard question.

[jk3521]

There is one very low percentage trainer in N.Y. ,has a one horse stable and has been handed a suspension or fine every year in the last five years for illegal substance or syringe found in the barn. Now if the racing officials can't even get a trainer with a one horse stable in line what makes anyone think that anything would be done to alleviate cheating done by high profile stables. We can b_tch and moan among ourselves and that's as far as it is going to go.

By the way was just honored by being given the "stable of the month" award

[chadk66]

Not saying it is right , just saying it's always been and always will be. I don't remember there being any uproar way back when Oscar was working his magic in the early 1980's or Pete Ferriola or any "miracle worker" . I think one difference is back then it might have been just talk around the OTB and now it's on message boards such as this one across the internet. Everybody seems so righteous now days. :faint:I think the big difference is back then they didn't have access to near the goods trainers have now days.

[jk3521]

I think the big difference is back then they didn't have access to near the goods trainers have now days.
I'm sure there is more stuff out there now including synthetic drugs.

[ezpace]

as someone said from
another forum said
His choice BAN HIM FROM RACING OR

NO DAYS AND

GELD HIM! ! !

[WJ47]

It's a real turn off to see cheaters getting so many chances in horse racing. I've pretty much stopped betting although I still enjoy keeping up with the stakes races and racing news. Between horrendous jockey rides, jockeys using buzzers, drugging trainers and darkened forms, it was driving me crazy. I've played the horses since I was a teenager (I'm 47) and I know that there has always been a certain amount of cheating in the sport, but it seems so much worse today. Now that I'm getting older and my blood pressure is high, it's time to step back and stop getting aggravated 20x a day.

I don't believe cheaters can change. As the old saying goes, a leopard can't change his spots. Racing needs to have a "3 strikes, you're out" rule. The 3rd offense should be banishment for life.

As someone pointed out, when a cheating trainer gets banned, usually a close friend or family member takes over during the suspension period. That's a real harsh punishment. :(

[taxicab]

The Rudy bro Gustavo went 3 for 4 @ The Big A today.
Including Ackeret{bet down from 12-1 to 6-1} defeating a super nice Chad horse in the 100k Stake.
He finished off the card producing a $33.80 winner.
Cheaters are rewarded yet again.

[Stillriledup]

The Rudy bro Gustavo went 3 for 4 @ The Big A today.
Including Ackeret{bet down from 12-1 to 6-1} defeating a super nice Chad horse in the 100k Stake.
He finished off the card producing a $33.80 winner.
Cheaters are rewarded yet again.

What do you mean? The penalty for RRR is massive, its going to cost him a TON of money and do you know why?

Because his owners are going to leave him in droves because none of them want to be associated with someone who continues to get drug positives, its a tremendous penalty, almost impossible to overcome, you can't ever say that racing jurisdictions in America are light handed when it comes to the integrity of the game.

No sir, not them.

[taxicab]

What do you mean? The penalty for RRR is massive, its going to cost him a TON of money and do you know why?

Because his owners are going to leave him in droves because none of them want to be associated with someone who continues to get drug positives, its a tremendous penalty, almost impossible to overcome, you can't ever say that racing jurisdictions in America are light handed when it comes to the integrity of the game.

No sir, not them.
:D :D

[Stillriledup]

RRR claimed a nice looking animal off a 9 pct trainer, got the best jock at the track, looked nice warming up, loves Belmont (recorded a 90'beyer there) and ran flat as a board.

Towering moon in the 7th

[nijinski]

that's exactly what I was thinking. And I didn't even remember it was an NSAID. I'd have to question that, don't believe it is. It's a pain killer not an anti-inflamatory as far as I know.


While I don't condone overuse on the track of Banamine (Flunixin) it is an NSAID .

[HalvOnHorseracing]

If you read my piece on Bill Brashears and banamine you'd have a better idea about positives for Banamine (flunixin). The standard was set at 20 ng/mL by RCI. Testing by their laboratory arm, RMTC, suggested that setting the standard at 50 ng/mL would ensure 99% compliance after a 10cc dose given 24 hours before a race. The RCI decided to adopt the lower standard under the assumption it represented what is called a 95/95 standard. This means there was a 95% level of confidence that 95% of the horses would test below the standard at the recommended dose and withdrawal time. In other words, in a ten horse card, if the first and second place finishers were tested, one horse would come back positive. That is a poor standard.

Once the standard went into effect, positives were coming back at more like 25%. RCI quickly commissioned RMTC to do another study, this time using treadmill testing. RMTC confirmed the 25% violation rate. This was reported to RCI, and instead of raising the standard from 20 ng/mL to something more in line with the results of the RMTC study, they instead decided to change the recommended withdrawal time to 32 hours.

Remember, the withdrawal time is NOT part of the standard. It is a recommendation. Any concentration above 20 ng/mL is a violation regardless of when the shot was given.

There are two effects associated with the administration of Banamine. The first is analgesic. Pharmacologists and vets agree that after about 15 hours the analgesic (or performance enhancing) effect disappears. The second is anti-inflammatory. This effect disappears after about 36 hours. In other words, the entire reason for giving the horse a NSAID almost totally disappears under the RCI standard and recommended withdrawal time.

The use of NSAIDs is important to the health of the equine athlete. Failure to treat any inflammatory condition will result in increased damage to the joint. And, critically, the use of Banamine does not mask serious injury or allow the horse to run through pain. It is no more effective than an ibuprofen tablet is on a human 32 hours after you take it. If you've ever sprained an ankle, try only taking ibuprofen once every day and a half. This is not animal abuse but proper care.

The larger issue should be obvious. RCI wanted to ban the use of Banamine, but could not in the face of information from their veterinary committee, so they did the next best thing - they tried to ban it through the back door by setting a standard that was so low it wouldn't pay for a trainer to take a chance on using banamine.

You can get angry at RuRod. You can throw around the word "cheat." But if you ask me, it is far more likely Rodriguez was caring for his horses than looking to gain an edge. If you don't believe me, find out what the level of the violation was. You never see that published because it would be indicative of the joke the flunixin standard is.

As I've said, the RCI crows about cleaning up the drugs in racing. Cleaning up a legitimate therapeutic at ridiculously low levels isn't cleaning up racing. But it does generate a lot of support for the position cheaters abound in racing.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

always a cheater. :eek:

http://www.drf.com/news/rodriguez-gets-25-days-banamine-positives

A couple of things I love about those articles. First, they neglect to mention that all the shots in NY are given by a state vet. Unless the vet was in some sort of cahoots with RuRod, he was likely giving the horse the recommended dosage with the recommended withdrawal time. Second, they neglect to mention the level of the violation. Any violation lower than 50 ng/mL would not fall into the category of heinous offense, and would hardly merit the label "cheating." While RuRod technically was in violation and deserves punishment, the assigned penalty in this instance was probably fair.

[Stillriledup]

Analyzing micrograms of this and picograms of that is not something the horse player cares about because that's all behind the scenes administrative stuff. That's for racing jurisdictions, labs and judges to sort out. Players care about one thing and that is if a trainer is winning at a very high percentage, if he moves up horses off otherwise good trainers or his/her horses fall off the map when claimed away, you know, things we can all see on paper and with our eyes on tape.

If a horse is running 60 beyers in the barn of a hall of famer and then gets claimed by one of these license from a Cracker Jack box guys and runs a 90 first time out while being hard to pull up on the gallop out, I'm not going to dismiss what I saw if that horse somehow doesn't come up positive.

I go on what I see on paper and video to determine the cheats, the picogram stuff is not something I care about.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Analyzing micrograms of this and picograms of that is not something the horse player cares about because that's all behind the scenes administrative stuff. That's for racing jurisdictions, labs and judges to sort out. Players care about one thing and that is if a trainer is winning at a very high percentage, if he moves up horses off otherwise good trainers or his/her horses fall off the map when claimed away, you know, things we can all see on paper and with our eyes on tape.

If a horse is running 60 beyers in the barn of a hall of famer and then gets claimed by one of these license from a Cracker Jack box guys and runs a 90 first time out while being hard to pull up on the gallop out, I'm not going to dismiss what I saw if that horse somehow doesn't come up positive.

I go on what I see on paper and video to determine the cheats, the picogram stuff is not something I care about.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Is Rudy a cheat because he had two Banamine positives or not?

Whether or not you care, Commissions that adopt absurd standards hurt the game as much as any alchemist. Administrative stuff? You're taking away a trainer's livelihood and that is not a trivial thing. You compromise the health of a horse by limiting the ability of a trainer to treat it with proper therapeutics.

You're certainly welcome to be as ignorant as you want to be. I would hope that most horseplayers who care about the game would find your suggestion that horseplayers don't care about the development and enforcement of rules as disappointing as I did.

[Stillriledup]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Is Rudy a cheat because he had two Banamine positives or not?

Whether or not you care, Commissions that adopt absurd standards hurt the game as much as any alchemist. Administrative stuff? You're taking away a trainer's livelihood and that is not a trivial thing. You compromise the health of a horse by limiting the ability of a trainer to treat it with proper therapeutics.

You're certainly welcome to be as ignorant as you want to be. I would hope that most horseplayers who care about the game would find your suggestion that horseplayers don't care about the development and enforcement of rules as disappointing as I did.

Bettors care about betting and getting an honest shake for their buck. Not caring and being ignorant are two different things. If racing jurisdictions have rules and enforce them, that has nothing to do with me or other bettors, we are just trying to cash our next wager.

No need to be disappointed that not everyone cares about pictograms, we aren't chemists nor want to be them.

As far as a trainers livelihood goes, that has nothing at all to do with bettors or handicappers. Do we want to see someone lose their job? Of course not, but it's not something that's any kind of factor for me, it's not something I'm thinking about when I'm trying to bet on my next winner.

[Saratoga_Mike]

SRU - you're wasting your time. A trainer could claim 100 horses, and improve every one of them by 20 Beyer points first-off-the claim. HalveRacing would say everything is fine.

[Stillriledup]

SRU - you're wasting your time. A trainer could claim 100 horses, and improve every one of them by 20 Beyer points first-off-the claim. HalveRacing would say everything is fine.

I like halv, but I think his voice would be stronger if he, on occasion, called out a cheat and called a spade a spade. Part of the reason that some generally honest trainers get caught up in the 'cheat web' is because the real cheaters are not called out on the carpet for cheating.

If people hide behind nano grams, they won't ever see the forest for the trees. I'd say watch the races, know the horses, watch the overnight miracles, it's not hard to sniff out the cheats, we all know who they are even without any kinds of tests the proof is in the results and how they are obtained.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I like halv, but I think his voice would be stronger if he, on occasion, called out a cheat and called a spade a spade. Part of the reason that some generally honest trainers get caught up in the 'cheat web' is because the real cheaters are not called out on the carpet for cheating.

If people hide behind nano grams, they won't ever see the forest for the trees. I'd say watch the races, know the horses, watch the overnight miracles, it's not hard to sniff out the cheats, we all know who they are even without any kinds of tests the proof is in the results and how they are obtained.

I wholeheartedly agree that the real cheats should be punished harshly, and I whole heartedly agree that commissions expend a lot of effort punishing marginal therapeutic violations. There are a very small percentage of trainers who are real alchemists. No problem from me getting rid of them.

If commissions really wanted to get the real cheaters, they would spend much less time and money on testing that results in less than one-half of one percent positives for drugs/medications. It would be like the cops saying they don't have time or money to crack down on gangs because all the effort is going into getting shoplifters. That's one of the issues I attack.

I came down on A.C. Avila when he had the acepromazine positive in California, but my practice seems to be centered around trainers who have been treated unfairly by the system. They actually find me, I don't go looking for them.

I understand the picogram argument. I think RCI has an agenda to ban drugs from horseracing, including useful therapeutics like Banamine. I think the commissions can be overbearing, arbitrary and in some cases mean as hell. I see my job as keeping them from screwing up racing from the administrative end just as they see their job as keeping cheating trainers from screwing up racing. Whether or not horseplayers care, I think someone has to be the person protecting them from bad decisions.

I am not pro-performance enhancing drug by any stretch. I make no equivocation - you use performance enhancing medication, I think you should get the book thrown at you. Banamine, phenybutazone, and Lasix don't fall into the category of performance enhancing the same way methamphetamine or nikethamide might. Technically, every medication is performance enhancing because it makes you feel better. I draw the line with drugs that do things like improve heart-lung function - those are the PEDs I am concerned about. Steroids, uppers, drugs that improve heart-lung function - those are the drugs of concern for me.

The problem is no one other than me is defending the trainers who are getting screwed. Ray Paulick is in the pocket of the commissions, and that isn't my offhanded opinion, that's the position of every horseman I've talked with. Check out his stuff and count the number of times he gets an exclusive quote from a trainer. He engages mostly in what I call "press-release journalism," relying on the stuff the commissions put out. And look at how many people cite Paulick and then start a whole string of "another f'ing cheater" posts. My job is to relate the truth and not just parrot something that came from Joe Gorajec. Read my stuff. It is meticulously documented. You tell me what in the Chris Grove or Kellyn Gorder articles was not factual. I'm not defending cheaters and I resent anyone who suggests that.

Doug O'Neill's oxazepam violation in New York was a joke. Kellyn Gorder's meth positive was almost certainly cross contamination. Chris Grove was essentially found innocent of doping his horse and was fined and suspended anyway. Bill Brashears was the victim of a standard designed to ban a drug through the back door. Ferris Allen got caught up in a ridiculous effort to have zero-tolerance standards for a known and useful therapeutic. I have never defended a trainer that was clearly looking to gain an edge.

In my post about RuRod I pointed out the bullshit standard, but clearly said he got an appropriate punishment. I don't think he was a cheat as many suggested. He used a legal drug in what was likely the way it was intended to be used. In the Chris Grove article I wasn't very kind to Julio Cartagena, if you're looking for someone I think is a cheat and should be banned from racing. I have no problem punishing the trainers guilty of getting an edge with an illegal drug that has no therapeutic purpose.

What people don't know is how many trainers I advise to take the days, pay the fine, and be careful next time.

Look at the stats. Something like 0.015% (about one in ever 7,000 tests) is for a real performance enhancing drug. You want to quote me? Trainers who use performance enhancing drugs with no therapeutic value should be punished as harshly as possible. The fact that I am generally pro-therapeutics, including Lasix, does not mean I favor the use of drugs willy-nilly. The person who suggested I defend everyone should re-read my pieces. Every article picks on a different aspect of bad administration.

Doug O'Neill for oxazepam in NY - almost certainly cross contamination, NY screws up by not having enough fluid to do a split sample test, an historical problem in NY, and blatantly a violation of a trainer's rights.

Ferris Allen for stanozolol in MD - MD goes to zero-tolerance resulting in violations for levels so low they could not have any performance enhancing effect. Most jurisdictions set de minimis levels in recognition of the fact that anything below that level is irrelevant to performance.

Bill Brashears for Banamine in CO - RCI sets a standard well below the level their own testing said it should be set at them gave trainers erroneous information about withdrawal time resulting in a high percentage of violations associated with standard dosages. RCI does this in a back door effort to ban Banamine.

Chris Grove for Nikethamide in WV - shows the arbitrariness of the absolute insurers rule, in essence finding Grove innocent of injecting the horse and guilty anyway.

Kellyn Gorder for methamphetamine in KY - almost certainly cross-contamination, but more important for the completely absent investigation done by KY.

I'm working to protect horseplayers from arbitrary, incompetent actions by commissions by working for good, honest horsemen.

My next big investigation will be about Mike and Sheri Norris in Indiana. If you read Paulick's article they sound like Bonnie and Clyde. Unfortunately, Paulick never got to talk to the Norrises but I did and it turns out there are two sides to the story. The angle will be about how Joe Gorajec in Indiana runs an often arbitrary, vindictive system, marking the Norrises for extinction because they refused to cooperate in Gorajec's campaign to get veterinarian Ross Russell.

To me this is important stuff, and it isn't about apologizing for trainers who get caught. It's about having a fair system where commissions don't have the power to target someone just because they don't like the person. Punish the guilty, but be just.