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Old 09-30-2012, 04:45 PM   #1
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Bill Finley - Cheaters: Lock them up

Some of us have been saying this on here (and thinking this) for years!

And it seems the 10-year suspension handed down to Dutrow is now catching on:

Quote:
John Bassett, a top Quarter Horse trainer, has been suspended 10 years and fined $10,000, by New Mexico stewards after two horses in his care tested positive for the drug dermorphin, or "frog juice."
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.
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If a Basset-trained horse was indeed racing with performance-enhancing drugs in its system then crimes were committed. Bassett won the eighth race that day with a horse named Don't Tell Lila, which tested positive for dermorphin. That means that anyone betting on anyone else in the race never had a fair chance. They were defrauded. That means that the owners of the other nine horses in the race (at least the ones whose horses ran clean) were defrauded, as well. He may not have pulled a gun on anyone, but his alleged actions robbed people of money.
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.
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This is not really about picking on Quarter Horse racing, sending a message or even making an example out of one trainer. It's about the racing industry and law enforcement finally coming to its senses when it comes to how egregious it is when people put potent and dangerous drugs in a horse's system in order to try to win a race. It's beyond egregious. It's criminal.
http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/stor...423682/lock-up

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 09-30-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:49 PM   #2
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These people should absolutely be prosecuted. States make too much money from betting to treat this lightly.
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:56 PM   #3
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Still too soft,IMHO, but it is a start
I think owners need to made to hurt severely and trainers need to banned for life.

On the other side of the coin, the industry needs to step up and act like a professional outfit - which they do not. The stupidity of drug testing and identification offenses is half of the problem.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:16 PM   #4
Ernie Dahlman
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[QUOTE=Tom]Still too soft,IMHO, but it is a start
I think owners need to made to hurt severely

My family has owned horses for almost 50 years. None of our horses has ever had a positive. I have nothing to do with my perfect record, yet you think I should be "hurt severely" if one of my horses tests positive?
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie Dahlman
I have nothing to do with my perfect record, yet you think I should be "hurt severely" if one of my horses tests positive?
I wouldn't go that far. You and your family choose which trainers get your horses, do you not? And I'm sure you don't make such decisions lightly.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:44 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
I wouldn't go that far. You and your family choose which trainers get your horses, do you not? And I'm sure you don't make such decisions lightly.
The Trainer Insurer rule is a problem for "Locking People Up". Most people know that there is no real security in the barn area. All it takes is for someone to walk up and touch the horses nose to get a positive of some kind because the tests now are so sensitive.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
The Trainer Insurer rule is a problem for "Locking People Up". Most people know that there is no real security in the barn area. All it takes is for someone to walk up and touch the horses nose to get a positive of some kind because the tests now are so sensitive.
In order to lock people up, you still need a conviction in a criminal court of law. And that, in my opinion, will be very hard to obtain partly because of what you write above.

It will be very difficult to prove (absent a confession or evidence in the form of something like a video recording), who actually administered the illegal substances into the horse's system. And without such proof, it will be nearly impossible to criminally convict someone and lock them up.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:09 PM   #8
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Just to play with Mr. Dahlman's post a bit - looking at the thoroughbredrulings.com site, I can't find a ruling for Bassett before the May demorphin rulings. I looked at a few others and they obviously go back a while and Bassett isn't exactly a fresh face on the scene. To be honest, he lives down the way from me and has had some of our young horses to get ready. One of those was fairly detestable to be around and as a reward/punishment, he ended up training him (actually a TB) for a while at RUI where he broke his maiden. Nothing indicated at the time that John was using anything illegal and I don't believe that he was. So, with no information available to suggest that he was inclined, and past experiences that suggested otherwise - what would my punishment have been had he trained something for us that suddenly popped with one of these positives?

I'm not naive and have a pretty solid grasp on how veterinary billing can work with this sort of stuff. I think that is where the line needs to be drawn if you are going to head down this path - if you really want to hold accountable an owner, you need to be able to demonstrate that the owner was aware of the treatment and then codify an "owner's responsibility" rule much like the one that applies to trainers that specifies that they bear the burden of inquiring what some obscure charge on the bill is with a misleading description. Then you are going to need some evidence, or a reasonable belief, that the owner knew that the charge for 177291d 9/5/12 P/R Vit. Boost was in fact something illegal. It just seems like a tough road to head down in all but the most clear-cut cases or when it becomes a pattern for the owner over a span of several or more different trainers.

For the record, I think Bassett should get every bit of this punishment and probably more. But, having been on the owner and trainer end of it, I'm just not convinced that cracking down on owners is viable without a mountain of evidence. And considering that the thread begins with the case of Bassett, who is basically unknown to anyone outside of AZ/NM/LosAl and hasn't had any public violations or any discernible rulings on the public record, it really seems like an implausible proposition in this context.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
In order to lock people up, you still need a conviction in a criminal court of law. And that, in my opinion, will be very hard to obtain partly because of what you write above.

It will be very difficult to prove (absent a confession or evidence in the form of something like a video recording), who actually administered the illegal substances into the horse's system. And without such proof, it will be nearly impossible to criminally convict someone and lock them up.
I agree. The thing is that most Horseplayers want these guys to be locked up without due process.

To this day I don't know how Dutrow can be so Evil yet do so well under all the scrutiny he's under. I think he has a big mouth but is one of the best Trainers around.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:30 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=Ernie Dahlman]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Still too soft,IMHO, but it is a start
I think owners need to made to hurt severely

My family has owned horses for almost 50 years. None of our horses has ever had a positive. I have nothing to do with my perfect record, yet you think I should be "hurt severely" if one of my horses tests positive?
If your trainer cheats. yes, your are ultimately responsible for your
horses. If you also read all of my post, I clearly said the definition need to be over-hauled as well. But, if your horse gets a legitimate positive, yes, YOU should be held accountable and receive a stiff fine, one that rises to the level of cheating tens of thousands of people. You think you are
above it all? Your records could be taken into account, but what really matters is ot the last 50 years, but today.

If I read you right, you are saying you own horses and have nothing to do with them?

Sorry, but you own them you are the ultimate responsible party. You cannot insulate yourself from your responsibility as an owner.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:44 PM   #11
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Right. I want a system that puts Dahlman (and other owners like him) on the same level as Dubb, Riccio, the Ramseys, and any of the many other owners that employ super trainers.

Why don't we start at the top and then work our way down? Assuming we want to actually make an impact, that is.

Last edited by Itamaraca; 09-30-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith
Just to play with Mr. Dahlman's post a bit - looking at the thoroughbredrulings.com site, I can't find a ruling for Bassett before the May demorphin rulings.
Are quarterhorse trainer violations listed there?
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Some of us have been saying this on here (and thinking this) for years!

And it seems the 10-year suspension handed down to Dutrow is now catching on:

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/stor...423682/lock-up
Enough of this. There should be criminal sanctions as well.
I don't know, perhaps fraud. or taking money by false pretense. Larceny.\
These horsemen need to be put on notice that if they get caught, they will be hauled into court and prosecuted.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:15 PM   #14
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[QUOTE=Ernie Dahlman]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Still too soft,IMHO, but it is a start
I think owners need to made to hurt severely

My family has owned horses for almost 50 years. None of our horses has ever had a positive. I have nothing to do with my perfect record, yet you think I should be "hurt severely" if one of my horses tests positive?
If an owner is proved to be part of a conspiracy to use illegal drugs on a horse then yes, prosecute them. If the violation is without the knowledge of a third party( owner) then, no.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thespaah
Enough of this. There should be criminal sanctions as well.
I don't know, perhaps fraud. or taking money by false pretense. Larceny.\
These horsemen need to be put on notice that if they get caught, they will be hauled into court and prosecuted.
Isn't that what the article was all about? Criminal prosecution of trainers who are caught using performance enhancing drugs on their horses?
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