Ramon Dominguez. Best jockey ever?

[Marshall Bennett]

Originally Posted by boomman

Not in my top 3, no......In fact as good of a rider as he obviously was, I think he was overrated a bit..........I never saw him as one of the best of all time.......

Boomer

Well said .

[Jeremy Jet]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

So, you're saying that riders in general haven't improved at all in the last 30 years?

That wasn't my primary point, but yes, I certainly do believe it to be the case. After all, why would they be better now? Advances in training and performance enhancing drugs would be the only reasons I can think of, as unlike other sports, being bigger and stronger is a non-starter for jockeys. As to the other two factors, I don't either of them having a significant impact on jockeys.

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by cj's dad

I read "A day at the races" 20+ years ago; was he the guy who had his head crushed at the top of the starting gate ????

yes

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Jet

That wasn't my primary point, but yes, I certainly do believe it to be the case. After all, why would they be better now? Advances in training and performance enhancing drugs would be the only reasons I can think of, as unlike other sports, being bigger and stronger is a non-starter for jockeys. As to the other two factors, I don't either of them having a significant impact on jockeys.

If the riders of today are even 1% stronger than their counterparts from the 1950s, that could be worth everything. We need to constantly keep in mind that many horse races are won or lost by hundredths of seconds. The difference in many races from 1st or 5th is most times, less than 1 second and quite often, its a tenth of a second. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are riding on tenths of seconds. If you're a tenth of a second faster, you can make tens of thousands more dollars. We're not talking minutes or hours, we're talking tenths of seconds. So, if a jockey was 1% stronger, or had 1% more 'balance' or 1% more inherent athletic ability than a jock from 1950, that's everything. The best jock today would be better than the best jock in 1950, which means that if Ramon Dominguez has 1% more strength, balance and inherent athletic ability than Eddie Arcaro, he's superior.

I think most people really don't like to knock the older great jock. People don't want to knock Shoe, Angel, Eddie or any of the greats from 40 and 50 years ago and say that some guy named Ramon Dominguez is actually better, it doesn't make sense to them.

Think about it this way. Think about who Ramon Dominguez's competition is? Its many guys who are similar to him, young, incredibly athletic, shredded little bodybuilders with incredible strength......who was Eddie Arcaro riding against? This is the same argument that works in all sports also. Look at baseball. People say Babe Ruth was the greatest player, but who was he hitting all those homeruns off of? He wasn't hitting homers off Mariano Rivera, Tim Lincecum, Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay, he was hitting them off John Doe and Joe Blow for the most part. Also, Babe Ruth was hitting homeruns off white guys, he didnt' have to face latin, asian or black pitchers and he didn't have to face relief specialists who came in to mix and match in the 8th and 9th innings. Ruth faces a bunch of out of shape white guys who worked in the offseason pumping gas and waiting tables at restaurants to make a few extra bucks. The pitchers Ruth faced, for the most part, weren't nearly as good as the pitchers Albert Pujols and Alex Rodriguez face in today's game.

So, the argument really comes down to how far advanced today's athlete is from the guys of yesteryear. I believe its quite a bit, in almost all sports.

[46zilzal]

Come on NO rider alive was stronger than Laffit Pincay Jr.


NONE of them and very few as fearless

George Wolfe NEVER lost a photo finish in a stakes race. That has nothing to do with pure strength but is perfect timing.

NO one has ever shown the patience and as coaxing a ride as the Shoe. no one period.

Todhunter Sloan and Carroll Shilling re wrote the record books in their day.

You really need to get a book and read about this sport and it's history as greatness is not limited to the last 20 years.

[46zilzal]

Sloan, ‘Todhunter’ (1873–1933)

US jockey. Often winning as many as five races in a day, he rode 137 winners from 369 mounts in 1897 and an amazing 186 winners from 362 mounts (45.1 %) in 1898.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_H._Shilling
In a short career, Carroll Shilling won 969 races and in his final three seasons, had a remarkable thirty-four percent winning percentage. In 1970, the National Museum of Racing at Saratoga Springs, New York recognized the talent of Carroll Shilling and inducted him in their Racing and Hall of Fame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Garrison

Garrison was so well-known for this that a contest where the winner pulls ahead at the last moment to score the victory is known as a Garrison finish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Sande

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

George Wolfe NEVER lost a photo finish in a stakes race. That has nothing to do with pure strength but is perfect timing.

NO one has ever shown the patience and as coaxing a ride as the Shoe. no one period.

.

So a great jockey does more than just sit in the saddle and go along for the ride. He has to have patience and timing. Right?

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

So a great jockey does more than just sit in the saddle and go along for the ride. He has to have patience and timing. Right?

when the animal beneath him is competitive, the best of the best can garner that tiny bit of extra to keep it running to the level it is capable of but not much more.

Old sayings stay around for a reason and we all know that "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

[Jeremy Jet]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

If the riders of today are even 1% stronger than their counterparts from the 1950s, that could be worth everything. We need to constantly keep in mind that many horse races are won or lost by hundredths of seconds.

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense. Joackeys, in case you haven't noticed, are totally unique athletes. They don't fight for rebounds, hit or throw balls, etc. They guide 1,000 pound animals around a track. They do not, and cannot force a racehorse to run faster than that which it is capable. Might a stronger rider have an advantage over a weaker one in a photo finish? Sure, but even that isn't guaranteed, as the decisions made earlier in the race are often far more important than the final thrusts to the wire.

If you don't think that the great finesse riders of the past would be successful today, then you must not understand the relative importance of variables other than strength.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Jet

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense. Joackeys, in case you haven't noticed, are totally unique athletes. They don't fight for rebounds, hit or throw balls, etc. They guide 1,000 pound animals around a track. They do not, and cannot force a racehorse to run faster than that which it is capable. Might a stronger rider have an advantage over a weaker one in a photo finish? Sure, but even that isn't guaranteed, as the decisions made earlier in the race are often far more important than the final thrusts to the wire.

If you don't think that the great finesse riders of the past would be successful today, then you must not understand the relative importance of variables other than strength.

There's a lot of variables. And yes, they can and do make horses run much faster. The difference between Joy Scott and Ramon Dominguez is at least 5 lengths at a mile. Its one full second from a below average rider and an elite rider. At least 1 second imo. And, in horse racing, one second is a light year.

[only11]

Originally Posted by boomman

Not in my top 3, no......In fact as good of a rider as he obviously was, I think he was overrated a bit..........I never saw him as one of the best of all time.......

Boomer

Boom always had in horse in a position to win..

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

There's a lot of variables. And yes, they can and do make horses run much faster. The difference between Joy Scott and Ramon Dominguez is at least 5 lengths at a mile. Its one full second from a below average rider and an elite rider. At least 1 second imo. And, in horse racing, one second is a light year.

No rider can make a horse run faster than it is capable as much as that fantasyland belief hangs around with the ignorant.

One race will be determined at the 2nd call, another after drafting and rating etc. NO scenario is the same as it is determined by the pace mixture that is projected.

I cash all the time when the crowd mentality jumps all over the rider rather than the runner.

The form cycle of a horse is commonly aligned with a positive jockey switch which leaves the impression of cause and effect but it is simply the horse, not the rider that is doing the running

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

No rider can make a horse run faster than it is capable as much as that fantasyland belief hangs around with the ignorant.

One race will be determined at the 2nd call, another after drafting and rating etc. NO scenario is the same as it is determined by the pace mixture that is projected.

I cash all the time when the crowd mentality jumps all over the rider rather than the runner.

The form cycle of a horse is commonly aligned with a positive jockey switch which leaves the impression of cause and effect but it is simply the horse, not the rider that is doing the running

This why racing is the greatest game on earth. I too take advantage of mistakes the public makes both ways. I take advantage of the crowd when they overbet the human connections and i take advantage of them the opposite way too when they make a mistake thinking a rider doesn't mean as much as it really does. More than one way to skin a cat.

Like i said, greatest game on earth.

[only11]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

Come on NO rider alive was stronger than Laffit Pincay Jr.


NONE of them and very few as fearless

George Wolfe NEVER lost a photo finish in a stakes race. That has nothing to do with pure strength but is perfect timing.

NO one has ever shown the patience and as coaxing a ride as the Shoe. no one period.

Todhunter Sloan and Carroll Shilling re wrote the record books in their day.

You really need to get a book and read about this sport and it's history as greatness is not limited to the last 20 years.

Eddie D MAy have been stronger then Pincay....

[boomman]

Originally Posted by only11

Boom always had in horse in a position to win..

only: I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, although late in his career he and his agent hand picked and chose low-odds horses that certainly put him in a better position to win. If you want to talk about someone that always had his horses in position to win, how about Pat Day? Most riders would LOVE to win A riding title @ Churchill Downs. Pat won 34 of 'em!!!!

Boomer