TVG refunded what was thought to be winning wagers!

[andymays]

Yesterday a problem arose from a dispute between TVG and whoever. The bottom line from a Bettors standpoint is that if bets were made earlier in the day (before 4:00pm EST) on races 2-8 they were refunded and not paid even if they were winning wagers.

A friend of mine called in his wagers from work and below I have copied and pasted an email that I sent to about 12 persons in the media and various Racing bodies.

My opinion of the situation is stated below along with a copy of the TVG bets that my friend made for the day!

email body:

I sent this to some of you yesterday and I am sending it again because it is fundamental to what we do. Anything less than outrage at this situation is unacceptable no matter what the fine print may say. If you are involved in the Thoroughbred Industry in whatever capacity and don’t stick up for the little guy that makes a bet while he’s at work, thinks he’s won, gets home to find that instead of winning his bets were refunded.

If anyone I’m sending this to doesn’t have the time or will to address this then you should get out of the business! You are part of the fundamental problem plaguing this industry. Apathy for something that doesn’t directly affect you is the problem.

For those of you who are actively looking into this I appreciate it. These are the bets made by a close friend of mine who doesn’t have a computer and called these in to TVG from work!


My friend placed these wagers with TVG earlier in the day. The times are Eastern Standard Time. All of the bets were accepted and many of them won including 5 of 6 in the Pick 6. Pick 3’s and 4’s were also hit for over $1000. They did not pay him and they only refunded the money after they accepted the bets. This is criminal. Is there any recourse?

4/22/2009 12:52 PM 40094D297363 Keeneland 1 $3.00 P3 5/6/2,5 IVR WAGER $6.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:53 PM 040959077363 Keeneland 2 $2.00 P4 6/2,5/2/8,11 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:54 PM D00962157363 Keeneland 1 $15.00 DB 5/6 IVR WAGER $15.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:54 PM A8096CE57363 Keeneland 3 $2.00 P3 2,5/2/8,11 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:55 PM 3C0979BB7363 Keeneland 4 $3.00 P3 2/8,11/3,5 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:56 PM 240983C37363 Keeneland 5 $3.00 P3 8,11/3,5/2 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:57 PM 040996897363 Keeneland 6 $1.00 P4 3,5/2/8,9/2,7 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 12:58 PM 14099BFF7363 Keeneland 6 $3.00 P3 3,5/2/8,9 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 1:07 PM 780A5B117363 Hollywood Park 1 $1.00 PPA 3/4/1/2,3/1,3/6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 1:08 PM 7C0A651D7363 Hollywood Park 1 $3.00 P4 3/4/1,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 1:08 PM 540A71BB7363 Hollywood Park 2 $3.00 P3 4/1,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $12.00 Refund: $12.00
4/22/2009 1:09 PM 1C0A83777363 Hollywood Park 3 $2.00 P6 1,3/2,3/1,3/6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $32.00 Refund: $32.00
4/22/2009 1:11 PM 300A95DD7363 Hollywood Park 3 $3.00 P3 1,3/2,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $24.00 Refund: $24.00
4/22/2009 1:11 PM 7C0AA1657363 Hollywood Park 4 $3.00 P3 2,3/1,3/5,6 IVR WAGER $24.00 Refund: $24.00
4/22/2009 1:12 PM 000AAEBB7363 Hollywood Park 5 $2.00 P4 1,3/5,6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $16.00 Refund: $16.00
4/22/2009 1:13 PM 780AB7557363 Hollywood Park 5 $4.00 P3 1,3/5,6/3,4 IVR WAGER $32.00 Refund: $32.00
4/22/2009 1:13 PM 0C0ABFF17363 Hollywood Park 6 $15.00 P3 5,6/3/7 IVR WAGER $30.00 Refund: $30.00
4/22/2009 1:14 PM 600AC57D7363 Hollywood Park 8 $5.00 TR 7/1,2/1,2,5,6 IVR WAGER $30.00 Refund: $30.00
4/22/2009 3:29 PM C41502077363 Keeneland 6 $2.00 P4 4/2/8,9/2,7 IVR WAGER $8.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:30 PM 0415117D7363 Keeneland 6 $3.00 TR 4/3,5/3,5,9 IVR WAGER $12.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:35 PM 041589817363 Keeneland 6 $1.00 P4 3,4,5/5/8,9/2,7,8 IVR WAGER $18.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:36 PM 64159CEF7363 Keeneland 7 $5.00 P3 5/8,9/2,7,8 IVR WAGER $30.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:40 PM 3C15BF657363 Hollywood Park 1 $2.00 P4 2,3/4/1,3/2,3 IVR WAGER $16.00 $0.00
4/22/2009 3:41 PM D015D28F7363 Hollywood Park 5 $3.00 P4 1,3/5,6/3,4/7 IVR WAGER $24.00 Refund: $24.00
4/22/2009 3:42 PM 3415DEC37363 Hollywood Park 6 $15.00 P3 5,6/3/7 IVR WAGER $30.00 Refund: $30.00

[gemcity39]

From a legal standpoint, not emotional, the TVG disclosure has specific guidelines on what happens if wagers accepted cannot be completed due to transmission errors, (which this is not), and "other" actions which result in the non co-mingling of pools. So from a legal standpoint the issue would be did the money bet co-mingle in the Holloywood pool totals, or did TVG never actually place the bets, but refunded them after deciding not to take wagers on Hollywood Park. If the money never co-mingled then TVG is covered strictly from a legal standpoint, (criminal), as you stated.

The lack of ethics by TVG not making the decision to refuse wagers should have been made before accepting any wagers. Your friend may have civil recourse for monetary damages because he can in fact show loss of revenue due to the refunds. However he would have to find an attorney willing to represent him that would evaluate the case and see it as a winner.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by gemcity39

From a legal standpoint, not emotional, the TVG disclosure has specific guidelines on what happens if wagers accepted cannot be completed due to transmission errors, (which this is not), and "other" actions which result in the non co-mingling of pools. So from a legal standpoint the issue would be did the money bet co-mingle in the Holloywood pool totals, or did TVG never actually place the bets, but refunded them after deciding not to take wagers on Hollywood Park. If the money never co-mingled then TVG is covered strictly from a legal standpoint, (criminal), as you stated.

The lack of ethics by TVG not making the decision to refuse wagers should have been made before accepting any wagers. Your friend may have civil recourse for monetary damages because he can in fact show loss of revenue due to the refunds. However he would have to find an attorney willing to represent him that would evaluate the case and see it as a winner.

You are right in everything you say. My point is how about somebody in the Industry doing the right thing once in a while. The Horseplayer always takes the worst of all situations.

All bets that were made should be in action and should be paid. I made bets in the 1st race and was paid on the early pick 3. In my opinion that means any bets made before the 1st would have been sent in.

I sent the email to several in the Media. It's their job to get to the bottom of this and inform the public.

[cj's dad]

It appears that your friend made these wagers via the telephone. TVG offers a "cancel" wager option via the net up to seconds before post. Because of this option (fairly recent) all bets made with TVG are able to be cancelled just seconds before post, as I have done.

However, before the 2nd race began, wagering into HP's pool was no longer an option, therefore, no wager = refund. What exactly would you have liked TVG to do ??

They do not book bets, they are merely a conduit for the wagers at a pre-set price of $.25 per wager.

Hope that helps your friend.

[andymays]

The wagers were made by phone. They would say online in the wager information line. His say IVR whatever that stands for (maybe interactive voice recognition).

Frankly I don't believe that the early wagers were not transmitted to Hollywood Park. Maybe I'm wrong.

TVG should have told whoever that they had accepted wagers and would honor them. The people who stopped TVG if that's what happened should have allowed the bets that were in to stand!

These knee jerk reactions seems to always end the same way. The Horseplayer takes the worst of it!

[lamboguy]

why in anyone's right mind pay .25 to make a $2 wager? seems to me they have a very flawed business plan at TVG.

i can get you the video, the replays, and all the pp's, get you every single north american track, and lots of other tracks world wide and get you a good rebate to boot.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

why in anyone's right mind pay .25 to make a $2 wager? seems to me they have a very flawed business plan at TVG.

i can get you the video, the replays, and all the pp's, get you every single north american track, and lots of other tracks world wide and get you a good rebate to boot.

Thanks for the information but the subject is about an injustice done to a Horseplayer.

Every Horseplayer should be outraged that this could happen!

[rrbauer]

Originally Posted by andymays

Frankly I don't believe that the early wagers were not transmitted to Hollywood Park. Maybe I'm wrong.

ADW wagers get transmitted to the host track via their hub. Hub-stored wagers do not get transmitted for any specific race until the track opens those races for wagering over the network. For the 1st race of the day, that is usually 1/2 hour, or so, before the race. For subsequent races, it is after the previous race has been made official and prices have been posted.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by rrbauer

ADW wagers get transmitted to the host track via their hub. Hub-stored wagers do not get transmitted for any specific race until the track opens those races for wagering over the network. For the 1st race of the day, that is usually 1/2 hour, or so, before the race. For subsequent races, it is after the previous race has been made official and prices have been posted.

Thanks for clearing that up. What do you believe is the right thing to do here?

My friend would have put in the wagers with Twin Spires if he would have known. He was at work so how could he have known?

[andymays]

Im sure there are more knowlegable people than me on this forum so let me ask.

Who is at fault here?

[Tom]

TVG.

Nice to see they do not put all their morons on the air, that they have a good supply held back in the offices. You never know when you will need an extra moron.

They had no business taking wager they were not certain they could honor.
People have had their knees broken for this. Maybe a few more should.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by andymays

Thanks for the information but the subject is about an injustice done to a Horseplayer.

Every Horseplayer should be outraged that this could happen!

yes that is an injustice to a horse player. if they accept the bet, they have no right to cancel it. how does one know ahead of time that they don't have a bet? if they knew ahead of time they might have found a different option to play the race.

the place i played with had a tote problem a few weeks ago, i had made my bets earlier before the tote problem. unfortunately all the bets i made lost, so i can't say i got paid for a winning bet.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

yes that is an injustice to a horse player. if they accept the bet, they have no right to cancel it. how does one know ahead of time that they don't have a bet? if they knew ahead of time they might have found a different option to play the race.

the place i played with had a tote problem a few weeks ago, i had made my bets earlier before the tote problem. unfortunately all the bets i made lost, so i can't say i got paid for a winning bet.

Thanks for the input.

I have a feeling TVG was blindsided by this action but they should fight for their customers first and foremost!

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by andymays

Thanks for the input.

I have a feeling TVG was blindsided by this action but they should fight for their customers first and foremost!

sounds to me like you are right. but tvg did have the option of taking the high road or the low road. in my opinion by not paying their players out of their own pockets they chose the low road. if it was me i would have said all bets count and we cannot accept any further bets.

what would have happened if someone placed a bet on a big jackpot and the bet won for something like $100k? that might be a life changing score to someone.

[gillenr]

While it seems likely that TVG acted legally, if they had "booked" the bets, they would probably have made a profit and people who made losing bets would be complaining.
PS - I wouldn't pay 0.25 to make any bet!