Turf Rail at Gulfstream

[cj]

Here is a replay from today that clearly shows what I'm discussing:

[YT="Gulfstream Replay"]DoEclUtfBOU[/YT]

[jasperson]

Today 1/19 the 4th thru the 7 look like the grass was worn out. I don't know what that mean in turf racing,but I would think it would be cupy I don't plan on betting that race.

[cj]

Here is a better example. From 1-16, Races 2 and 8. Both are at one mile and a sixteenth. Race 2 has the temp rail set at 115 feet. Race 8 has the temp rail set at 48 feet. It is clear they run MUCH farther in race 8 until they get to the finish line the first time. Why is it so much shorter for Race 2? Because the turns are farther when the rails are out. I can't even believe this is a discussion.


[YT="Race 2 - Rail 115 feet"]yv5cLvPmPEc[/YT]

In this race, it only takes about 15 rail posts until they reach the finish line. That is about 150 feet and the reported run up is 89 feet, leaving only 61 feet from the start of timing until the finish line.


[YT="Race 8 - Rail 48 feet"]KIy5Szx1-OI[/YT]

In this race, it takes 35 rail posts until they reach the finish line. That is about 350 feet and the reported run up is 125 feet, leaving 225 feet from the start of timing until the finish line.

So there is a difference of 225 - 61 = 184 feet. That is 184 feet more run on the straights when the rail is at 48 feet versus when the rail is at 115 feet. The reason is to make up for the longer distance of the turns with the rail at the wider setting.

[Jeff P]

Thanks man.

(But when I saw the pdf I had to ask.)



-jp

.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Thanks man.

(But when I saw the pdf I had to ask.)



-jp

.

I hope my explanation was clear, I tend to ramble.

To be fair I didn't look at the PDF. Why would I? I know how it works.

[HuggingTheRail]

and you got to use the word discorectangle again

[cj]

Originally Posted by HuggingTheRail

and you got to use the word discorectangle again

That is never a bad thing. In fact, it is what spurred me.to post. 😎

[cj]

I'm sure Cratos means well here. I've been trying to figure out his meaning and I think he is measuring the outer rail. Of course that never changes and would remain static. I just don't see what possible help that is to a bettor until the horses start racing on the outside of the course

I will say I'm a little worried that his profile shows he has been replying to this post for nearly an hour now. Look out!!!!!.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

I'll bite.

Mainly because I don't have a dog in this fight...

That and I might actually learn something.

Cratos,

The pdf attached to your post (#43 in this thread) shows radius of the turn for the Gulfstream turf course at a constant 445 feet (no matter what the position of the temp rail.)

Question - and I am being genuine when I ask this:

If the temp rail is listed at n feet - does that not mean the temp rails have been moved outward on the turn by n feet as well? (Which would increase the radius of the turn by n feet?)

I ask because:

1. Those times that I personally attended Gulfstream were at the old Gulfstream, many years ago (and before Frank remodeled the plant.)

I have not attended the new Gulfstream and have therefore not personally observed (with my own two eyes) whether or not when the temp rails are announced at n feet they are moved outward on the straightaways only - and not moved outward on the turns at all (as stated in the pdf attached to your post.)

2. I have attended other tracks where I have personally seen (with my own two eyes) the grounds crew physically move the temp rails outward on the turns so as to increase the radius of the turns.

Whether or not the the rails were moved outward the exact announced distance of n feet is another matter. (I did not go out there with a tape measure.) But I did observe that the temp rails were in fact moved outward (farther away from the hedge) on the turns.

When it comes to temp rail placement on the turns, is Gulfstream different than other tracks?


-jp

.

Jeff,

You are correct, but this can be done either by elongation or widening and here is something to think about; the circumference width of any turf course is fixed and if the radii are made larger theoretically the turf course approaches a straight line because mathematically that is what happens as a curve becomes larger.

Not saying this can/will happen as illustrated by the sketch in my attached PDF, but the racetrack management have a choice to either “elongate” or “widen” when the temporary rail is moved. This is not a math problem which is very elementary, but a simple choice because neither one is optimal with respect to geometry and I would guess it is economic driven based on the number of turf races run.

Also with the alleged larger radii, either the straightaway lengths must become shorter or there is a repositioning of the starting gate with respect to the turn to compensate for the larger radii. And with different rail settings for the same race distance, constructing reliable speed and pace analyses is a conundrum.

However, all of this is unnecessary with simple "elongation" as oppose to "widening" the inner circumference of the turf course.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Cratos

Jeff,

You are correct, but this can be done either by elongation or widening and here is something to think about; the circumference width of any turf course is fixed and if the radii are made larger theoretically the turf course approaches a straight line because mathematically that is what happens as a curve becomes larger.

Not saying this can/will happen as illustrated by the sketch in my attached PDF, but the racetrack management have a choice to either “elongate” or “widen” when the temporary rail is moved. This is not a math problem which is very elementary, but a simple choice because neither one is optimal with respect to geometry and I would guess it is economic driven based on the number of turf races run.

Also with the alleged larger radii, either the straightaway lengths must become shorter or there is a repositioning of the starting gate with respect to the turn to compensate for the larger radii. And with different rail settings for the same race distance, constructing reliable speed and pace analyses is a conundrum.

However, all of this is unnecessary with simple "elongation" as oppose to "widening" the inner circumference of the turf course.

This is pretty much what I've been saying all along, I just provided examples. Isn't it nice to agree sometimes?

[cj]

Gulfstream was back to running turf races with three different rail settings on the same card this weekend.

I'm working on an article and queried the turf races at Gulfstream. There are 405 unique combinations of rail settings and run up for the races there...405. They often use a different combination for every single turf race on a card, and they aren't shy about loading cards with turf races either.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by cj

Gulfstream was back to running turf races with three different rail settings on the same card this weekend.

I'm working on an article and queried the turf races at Gulfstream. There are 405 unique combinations of rail settings and run up for the races there...405. They often use a different combination for every single turf race on a card, and they aren't shy about loading cards with turf races either.

CJ, are you saying that they sometimes change the rail settings race to race? If so, how long does that take? Maybe that's why they delay post times so much ?

[cj]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

CJ, are you saying that they sometimes change the rail settings race to race? If so, how long does that take? Maybe that's why they delay post times so much ?

No, the rails are in place before racing begins. It is a very wide course. There are always at least two, and sometimes three, different course set up each day.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by cj

Gulfstream was back to running turf races with three different rail settings on the same card this weekend.

I'm working on an article and queried the turf races at Gulfstream. There are 405 unique combinations of rail settings and run up for the races there...405. They often use a different combination for every single turf race on a card, and they aren't shy about loading cards with turf races either.

HOW can there possibly be 405 rail settings...What exactly constitutes a unique setting...? I thought there were 3-5 standard distances out from a permanently set initial rail....what gives...?

Maybe they just set the stating gate up where ever it lands provided there is some minimum run-up distance...?

[cj]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

HOW can there possibly be 405 rail settings...What exactly constitutes a unique setting...? I thought there were 3-5 standard distances out from a permanently set initial rail....what gives...?

Maybe they just set the stating gate up where ever it lands provided there is some minimum run-up distance...?

The combinations include run up, not just rail.

There are 405 unique combinations of rail settings and run up for the races

For example, this could happen for one day at GP. They do generally mix up the distance, but running the same distance on the same rail setting with three different run ups is actually standard practice.

Rail at 0:

1m 1/16 run up 20
1m 1/16 run up 50
1m 1/16 run up 134

Rail at 60

1m 1/16 run up 5
1m 1/16 run up 65
1m 1/16 run up 190

Rail at 115

1m 1/16 run up 15
1m 1/16 run up 115
1m 1/16 run up 221