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Old 02-02-2018, 02:35 PM   #46
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Not everyone has access to private pace and speed numbers that are superior to the publicly available ones...how do you compete with that?

I don't understand the reasoning here, and I never have, as this debate has been going on for quite a while.
Everyone can either purchase or calculate their own pace and speed figures, its readily available data.

The big issue is that some people do not have access to the ability to make these bets yet have to live with the payouts that others do, patently unfair. If the pools were separate then you have a valid argument.

I dont even see a comparison between speed figures and a computer batch betting program.

And all that is beyond if this is good for the overall health of the sport, which its not.
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Old 02-02-2018, 02:42 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GMB@BP View Post
Everyone can either purchase or calculate their own pace and speed figures, its readily available data.

The big issue is that some people do not have access to the ability to make these bets yet have to live with the payouts that others do, patently unfair. If the pools were separate then you have a valid argument.

I dont even see a comparison between speed figures and a computer batch betting program.

And all that is beyond if this is good for the overall health of the sport, which its not.
Their edge is being able to analyze the pools.

If *I* am able to write a program that automatically bets for me after analyzing pool data, then IT'S NOT THAT IMPOSSIBLE.

Sure, these guys are doing it on a much more advanced level, but it's still basically the same thing.

I DID IT.

That means it's not so impossible to acquire...

The HARD PART is writing a program that actually is able to make a profit. The hard part IS NOT writing a program that reads data and makes bets.

That's the EASY part.

Their edge isn't being able to bet at the last second. Anyone can do that.

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Old 02-02-2018, 05:37 PM   #48
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Racing has been doing really well with the adapting...I predict big things for its future.
I get the feeling those big players are the only reason the game is still here.

Think Star Wars. That big ass ship floating through space with 500 little fighters shooting at each other while the big ship just keeps slowly lumbering across the screen.

Guess which one you are........
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Old 02-02-2018, 11:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Their edge is being able to analyze the pools.

If *I* am able to write a program that automatically bets for me after analyzing pool data, then IT'S NOT THAT IMPOSSIBLE.

Sure, these guys are doing it on a much more advanced level, but it's still basically the same thing.

I DID IT.

That means it's not so impossible to acquire...

The HARD PART is writing a program that actually is able to make a profit. The hard part IS NOT writing a program that reads data and makes bets.

That's the EASY part.

Their edge isn't being able to bet at the last second. Anyone can do that.


These guys are making numerous bets at the last minute. They're not standing at a SAM punching in tickets. They have access to pool info that isn't available to the public. They can see the will pays to the horses in the 8th race in the P3 pool while betting is going on in the 6th race. Sorry boss. This is HORSESHIT.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ultracapper View Post
These guys are making numerous bets at the last minute. They're not standing at a SAM punching in tickets. They have access to pool info that isn't available to the public. They can see the will pays to the horses in the 8th race in the P3 pool while betting is going on in the 6th race. Sorry boss. This is HORSESHIT.
Tons of ADWs let you batch bet at the last minute. This isn't something weird that NOBODY can do except a select few.

That's for starters. You can write your own program to submit tons of bets near the end if you have the right ADW.

As for access to pool info that isn't available to the public, I call BS on that.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:45 AM   #51
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I get the feeling those big players are the only reason the game is still here.

Think Star Wars. That big ass ship floating through space with 500 little fighters shooting at each other while the big ship just keeps slowly lumbering across the screen.

Guess which one you are........
Oh I totally get which one I am....but my story is one that should highlight how racing did its best to eliminate a player like me from being interested in betting the sport.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:54 AM   #52
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Oh I totally get which one I am....but my story is one that should highlight how racing did its best to eliminate a player like me from being interested in betting the sport.
And yet, you persist in this game...and so do I. The horseracing industry is betting that we won't voluntarily give up this game...even if we are greatly "inconvenienced" while playing it. And, to a large degree...the industry is right.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:57 AM   #53
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And yet, you persist in this game...and so do I. The horseracing industry is betting that we won't voluntarily give up this game...even if we are greatly "inconvenienced" while playing it. And, to a large degree...the industry is right.
I have friends in the game, if I didnt I am not so sure.

Either way when I was 26 (16 years ago) I put 500k through the windows, last year I was around 20k.
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:11 AM   #54
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I have friends in the game, if I didnt I am not so sure.

Either way when I was 26 (16 years ago) I put 500k through the windows, last year I was around 20k.
When a horseplayer gives up the game, or greatly reduces his betting over time...the industry doesn't interpret this as if the player made a rational decision to do so because he became "disgruntled" with the way the game has devolved. To the industry, the horseplayer who stops betting either DIED...or he went broke. In either case, this player is no longer of any use to the track...so the track no longer bothers with him. So...the track now looks for some new way by which they could attract a new group of "live ones"...to replace the ones who "died, or went broke". That's how the rebates and the Whales were created...IMO.

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Old 02-03-2018, 11:57 AM   #55
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What's unfair about someone having an edge? That's the whole purpose of the game...to get an edge other people do not have.

Well what's wrong with sponging... or using ping-pong balls then?


Hell, why limit yourself?


Race fixing? Sure, great!


Buzzers? Bring'em on! They must be great for the sport...



The problem with it all, from the perspective of those running horse racing, is that all of it maintains the lethal lack of parity in the mutuel pools.


It is rather amusing, though, to read this thread and observe those who are the problem being deeply intimidated by a self-perceived bigger problem which threatens their own edge.

That while they continue to have zero concept of what they themselves have been doing to bury horse racing for decades now.


It is as simple as the following:


The guy who walks in off the street, having never been to a horse race before, wants reason to feel that he has just as much hope/chance as does anyone.

He feels that when he purchases a lotto ticket. He feels that when he plays Keno at some local restaurant. He feels that when he plays roulette.


He can tell immediately that he is at a great disadvantage when he arrives at the track and he never returns as a result.

That's it. It is that simple.



So, still again, the correct reaction to such a simple equation is to do everything in the industry's power to greatly improve the chances of the newcomer, from day one, so that he will stay in the game.


When seeking optimum parity in racing's parimutuel pools, we'll get around to you guys getting cleaned-out by robotic wagering entities many years from now, only after we have greatly offset your own disastrous effect on today's newcomers.


Just look around at wagering menus at today's tracks and see if you can blame robotic wagering for those disasters.


Racing has been burying itself for decades, so why attempt to stand in its way?
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:03 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by AskinHaskin View Post
Well what's wrong with sponging... or using ping-pong balls then?


Hell, why limit yourself?


Race fixing? Sure, great!


Buzzers? Bring'em on! They must be great for the sport...



The problem with it all, from the perspective of those running horse racing, is that all of it maintains the lethal lack of parity in the mutuel pools.


It is rather amusing, though, to read this thread and observe those who are the problem being deeply intimidated by a self-perceived bigger problem which threatens their own edge.

That while they continue to have zero concept of what they themselves have been doing to bury horse racing for decades now.


It is as simple as the following:


The guy who walks in off the street, having never been to a horse race before, wants reason to feel that he has just as much hope/chance as does anyone.

He feels that when he purchases a lotto ticket. He feels that when he plays Keno at some local restaurant. He feels that when he plays roulette.


He can tell immediately that he is at a great disadvantage when he arrives at the track and he never returns as a result.

That's it. It is that simple.



So, still again, the correct reaction to such a simple equation is to do everything in the industry's power to greatly improve the chances of the newcomer, from day one, so that he will stay in the game.


When seeking optimum parity in racing's parimutuel pools, we'll get around to you guys getting cleaned-out by robotic wagering entities many years from now, only after we have greatly offset your own disastrous effect on today's newcomers.


Just look around at wagering menus at today's tracks and see if you can blame robotic wagering for those disasters.


Racing has been burying itself for decades, so why attempt to stand in its way?
Screw parity and screw the newbie. There's nothing stopping a newbie from going to the track, picking up a program, and doping out a winner just like everyone else.

This game is about finding a long term EDGE. From the player's perspective, it has always been that way and always WILL be that way.

Listing things that are clearly ILLEGAL and trying to equate them to betting activity and handicapping edges that are clearly NOT illegal is the height of ignorance.

Maybe we should go back to horse and buggies too so the Amish are on equal ground to the rest of the country? Those poor newbies...

This might be the dumbest post you've ever made, and that's saying something.

Every newbie at the track I've ever known (including me), went in there thinking that exact same thing...when we won, we thought "WOW, how long has THIS been going on."

Then we got our clocks cleaned (and wow, there WEREN'T ANY REBATES BACK THEN, OR COMPUTER ROBOTIC WAGERING, or whatever the latest complaint is).

When you get your clock cleaned as a newbie, that's the crossroads. You either leave the game, or you become an even bigger fan and set out to IMPROVE YOUR GAME, because UNLIKE THE LOTTERY, you CAN IMPROVE YOUR GAME.

Thank me very much.

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Old 02-03-2018, 12:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Screw parity and screw the newbie.

This game is about finding an EDGE. From the player's perspective, it has always been that way and always WILL be that way.

Listing things that are clearly ILLEGAL and trying to equate them to betting activity and handicapping edges that are clearly NOT illegal is the height of ignorance.

Maybe we should go back to horse and buggies too so the Amish are on equal ground to the rest of the country? Those poor newbies...

This might be the dumbest post you've ever made, and that's saying something.
Screw parity and screw the newbie???? How is the game supposed to grow? Having an information edge is one thing but having a skill edge, a bankroll edge, a massive rebate edge, and a personal tote edge kinda goes against the spirit of parimutuel wagering. Skill and luck are supposed to determine the winners. There should be one takeout rate for everyone. Having said that I don't blame anyone who gets them but I do take issue with the opinion that those getting them are entitled to them.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:11 PM   #58
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I know that line needed more explanation, so I edited it while you were replying.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:14 PM   #59
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I know that line needed more explanation, so I edited it while you were replying.
It's cool. You can delete my bolded quote.

The way wagering is being conducted must change for the game to grow. The people getting the big rebates have always said that they would like one lower takeout rate for all yet most of them openly defend the status quo IMO.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by AskinHaskin View Post
Well what's wrong with sponging... or using ping-pong balls then?


Hell, why limit yourself?


Race fixing? Sure, great!


Buzzers? Bring'em on! They must be great for the sport...



The problem with it all, from the perspective of those running horse racing, is that all of it maintains the lethal lack of parity in the mutuel pools.


It is rather amusing, though, to read this thread and observe those who are the problem being deeply intimidated by a self-perceived bigger problem which threatens their own edge.

That while they continue to have zero concept of what they themselves have been doing to bury horse racing for decades now.


It is as simple as the following:


The guy who walks in off the street, having never been to a horse race before, wants reason to feel that he has just as much hope/chance as does anyone.

He feels that when he purchases a lotto ticket. He feels that when he plays Keno at some local restaurant. He feels that when he plays roulette.


He can tell immediately that he is at a great disadvantage when he arrives at the track and he never returns as a result.

That's it. It is that simple.




So, still again, the correct reaction to such a simple equation is to do everything in the industry's power to greatly improve the chances of the newcomer, from day one, so that he will stay in the game.


When seeking optimum parity in racing's parimutuel pools, we'll get around to you guys getting cleaned-out by robotic wagering entities many years from now, only after we have greatly offset your own disastrous effect on today's newcomers.


Just look around at wagering menus at today's tracks and see if you can blame robotic wagering for those disasters.


Racing has been burying itself for decades, so why attempt to stand in its way?
You've said this many times...but you've never specified what exactly WE have done...to make this game so "inhospitable" for these "newcomers"...who are just DYING to get in this game?
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