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Old 12-19-2016, 07:39 PM   #1
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Masochistic DQed from BC Sprint

http://www.drf.com/news/masochistic-...fied-bc-sprint
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:42 PM   #2
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This is the worst part:

"Neither the CHRB – whose medical director is Dr. Rick Arthur -- nor the Breeders’ Cup ordered Ellis to scratch. The decision was left to Ellis and Masochistic’s owners."

Basically just flipped the bird to bettors here.
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:49 PM   #3
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Beautiful.

Bettors be damned. What a fricken country!

How about scratching so that the wagering public does not get screwed?

Shame on you - Breeders Cup, Ellis, Shamlian and Siegel.

Are they hoping it won't register? I get that it is legal if administered appropriately but if you receive notice three days before of the bad result, c'mon!

Those that had a Defrong - Mind Your Biscuits exacta are enjoying this outcome immensely. I do realize that the dynamics of the race would have changed and the outcome may have been entirely different but the optics on this are horrible.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
This is the worst part:

"Neither the CHRB – whose medical director is Dr. Rick Arthur -- nor the Breeders’ Cup ordered Ellis to scratch. The decision was left to Ellis and Masochistic’s owners."

Basically just flipped the bird to bettors here.
I'm not following how its an f-u to bettors. The horse ran and finished second and bettors were paid.

Isn't it more of a massive f-u to the other owners. Defrong went wire-to-wire. But if Massochistic had dueled him into defeat and it turned out he tested positive and was essentially a non-runner how would you feel?

I know this forum is bettors centric but if any people should be livid it should be the other owners.

Btw... I personally don't feel anyone should be upset by this but the owners kinda have a case.

However I do think given Ellis knew their was a chance the horse was going to test positive and had an option to scratch and rolled the dice and lost. Given that coupled with its a championship race he deserves a punishment above and beyond.

Personally I think he banned from running horses in at least one Breeders Cup.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPickle
I'm not following how its an f-u to bettors. The horse ran and finished second and bettors were paid.

Isn't it more of a massive f-u to the other owners. Defrong went wire-to-wire. But if Massochistic had dueled him into defeat and it turned out he tested positive and was essentially a non-runner how would you feel?

I know this forum is bettors centric but if any people should be livid it should be the other owners.

Btw... I personally don't feel anyone should be upset by this but the owners kinda have a case.

However I do think given Ellis knew their was a chance the horse was going to test positive and had an option to scratch and rolled the dice and lost. Given that coupled with its a championship race he deserves a punishment above and beyond.

Personally I think he banned from running horses in at least one Breeders Cup.
It is an FU to bettors because they let a horse run that they knew was highly likely to fail a drug test. I don't know how you can't see that. What do I care about the owner? The owner's employee cheated. Now we know why he skipped the prep race.

Last edited by cj; 01-04-2017 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:10 PM   #6
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Also, if it wasn't that big a deal, why not tell the public beforehand?
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by cj
It is an FU to bettors because they let a horse run that they knew was highly likely to fail a drug test. I don't know how you can't see that.
Yeah but CJ you're going down the EMD/SRU PA Forum Rabbithole of what should happen versus what can happen.

You're a smart guy you have to grasp the CHRB is in a pretty crapy spot on this. They can't force the horse to scratch based on it might fail a drug test. Even a crappy chemist and a crappy lawyer could testify the horse had a reasonable chance of coming back clean. No court would back up the CHRB decision to scratch that horse. Either the Seigel's could have gotten an injunction to force him into the gate or a 3rd year law student could have taken the Breeders Cup and the CHRB to court and gotten the 1st prize money plus damages.

You're the voice of reason on this forum. Surely you grasp due process. You can't arrest a guy who's thinking about robbing a bank and you can't scratch a horse who might fail a drug test. Welcome to America.

Here's where you outrage should be...

Elis had an out of this mess and choose not use it. He should be suspended for months not weeks, denied entry for at least one Breeders Cup and lose his TVG work.

The real crime is if this guy gets two weeks and shows up on TVG this summer that's a MASSIVE slap in the face to integrity.

That's where the outrage should be.

Btw... you can already tell in the DRF article where it mentions how clean he is how its going to go down.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:17 PM   #8
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Can we count on the journalistic integrity at TVG to ask Ellis why he didn't scratch?

If they are concerned about not losing wagering dollars, shouldn't this be addressed so they can build trust with their "employer", the wagering public?

Maybe we can get Talamo's wife to ask her dad on camera?
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:20 PM   #9
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It sounds like they thought it would be out of his system in time, but absolutely knew there was a risk it would not and didn't have the ability to do one last test just before the race to make sure. They basically gambled on it coming back clean and lost.

The issue is whether they should have been allowed to gamble like that to begin with because a positive would be a blow to the reputation of the sport and a "positive horse" could also impact the race.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:20 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cj
Also, if it wasn't that big a deal, why not tell the public beforehand?
CHRB bet on the 90% thing Ellis said and lost. They deserve some heat.

They should have been more transparency I'll give you that. But I don't think there's an action they could take.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPickle
Yeah but CJ you're going down the EMD/SRU PA Forum Rabbithole of what should happen versus what can happen.

You're a smart guy you have to grasp the CHRB is in a pretty crapy spot on this. They can't force the horse to scratch based on it might fail a drug test. Even a crappy chemist and a crappy lawyer could testify the horse had a reasonable chance of coming back clean. No court would back up the CHRB decision to scratch that horse. Either the Seigel's could have gotten an injunction to force him into the gate or a 3rd year law student could have taken the Breeders Cup and the CHRB to court and gotten the 1st prize money plus damages.

You're the voice of reason on this forum. Surely you grasp due process. You can't arrest a guy who's thinking about robbing a bank and you can't scratch a horse who might fail a drug test. Welcome to America.

Here's where you outrage should be...

Elis had an out of this mess and choose not use it. He should be suspended for months not weeks, denied entry for at least one Breeders Cup and lose his TVG work.

The real crime is if this guy gets two weeks and shows up on TVG this summer that's a MASSIVE slap in the face to integrity.

That's where the outrage should be.

Btw... you can already tell in the DRF article where it mentions how clean he is how its going to go down.
Why not tell the public then? Let them know a horse might very well fail a drug test. What is the point of that out of competition testing leading up to the BC if you can't use it for anything. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I 100% agree with you on Ellis. He should be hammered. But we all know he won't be. He'll keep running his horses two or three times a year so he can drug them up in between races. I smelled a rat when he skipped the prep race and commented on it. Something was fishy then, I just knew it.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:25 PM   #12
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Someone should get hammered for this.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stringmail
Can we count on the journalistic integrity at TVG to ask Ellis why he didn't scratch?

If they are concerned about not losing wagering dollars, shouldn't this be addressed so they can build trust with their "employer", the wagering public?

Maybe we can get Talamo's wife to ask her dad on camera?
Ellis said he thought that there was a 90% chance it would be out of his system by race day. That is why he didn't scratch. I don't blame him. If he thought it was 90% I would have run him also.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:33 PM   #14
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Someone should get hammered for this.
It should not be Ellis. The horse should have been scratched by the stewards or BC officials. It should not have been up to Ellis to make the call.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Why not tell the public then? Let them know a horse might very well fail a drug test. What is the point of that out of competition testing leading up to the BC if you can't use it for anything. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I 100% agree with you on Ellis. He should be hammered. But we all know he won't be. He'll keep running his horses two or three times a year so he can drug them up in between races. I smelled a rat when he skipped the prep race and commented on it. Something was fishy then, I just knew it.
And that's why the outrage should be focused on Ellis and not the CHRB or the bettors or whatever.

It's a simple riskversus reward formula. He rolled on the dice on the reward of the horse winning and him making $100K+ versus two weeks vacation and $10K fine.

If he's forced to loss real money and real consequences after this that's the only way to prevent future issues.

Everyone on the forum should be emailing TVG demanding they end their relationship with him.

If you want to stop this stuff you start by doing that.
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