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Old 01-02-2018, 07:34 PM   #31
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It's all gambling. Some bets (investments) are sounder (ie. LESS RISKY) than others, but it's all gambling, because there are no guaranteed returns. There are close to guaranteed returns, like a savings account, but you see what those are paying these days. Hardly worth it.

PLENTY of people have lost EVERYTHING investing...there have been TONS of S&P pit traders (when that existed) who have lost it all. There have been TONS of day traders that have lost it all.

There have been people who "invested" in places like Enron who have lost it all...even pension funds and the like, who were supposedly "safe."

MONEY IS AT RISK in all of these situations...that's gambling.

If there were no risk, there would be no return.
The difference is that gambling in a casino involves cycling your money through a game that is designed to hold some percentage of that wager for the house. Even if itís a fraction of 1%, over the long run you should lose money.

Investing involves owning a limited liability interest in a (hopefully) money making enterprise. You can certainly screw that up any number of ways but looking at historical returns on equities, itís much, much harder for someone who buys and holds through a market cycle to lose money than it is for anyone to win in a casino.

If you want to compare investing to gambling, at least recognize the distinction that itís gambling in a form that has a positive return for those who play built in. It takes some serious effort to lose everything in the market. The minimal effort of diversifying across just a few holdings mitigates that possibility to near zero.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:36 PM   #32
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Yes and no. One can say that putting their money in anything but the mattress means they're gambling, but they could even lose the money in the mattress if they're robbed.

I guess we're "gambling" every day with our lives as we drive a car or board a plane or cross a street or eat a cheeseburger.

So we can take it all to the extreme, but we generally know what we're talking about when we talk about investing and gambling and the differences between the two.

So would you not call betting on horses gambling? We call playing a slot machine gambling, or blackjack gambling...both games you are guaranteed to lose. Horse racing though, you CAN win at, since you are playing against other players and not the house's built-in edge.

So should we call horse racing betting - investing? To distinguish between horses and craps etc.?

These are the types of lines you're trying to draw.

Anything with risk should be called gambling...

Life IS a gamble...

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 01-02-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:54 PM   #33
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So would you not call betting on horses gambling? We call playing a slot machine gambling, or blackjack gambling...both games you are guaranteed to lose. Horse racing though, you CAN win at, since you are playing against other players and not the house's built-in edge.

So should we call horse racing betting - investing? To distinguish between horses and craps etc.?

These are the types of lines you're trying to draw.

Anything with risk should be called gambling...

Life IS a gamble...
Horse Racing you are playing against other players AND the hold. You can be an extraordinarily talented and disciplined player and still not beat the hold.

Investing you can be an extraordinarily untalented investor and so long as you are disciplined, itís still difficult to lose money.
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Our brains are way too big for our mother's hips.
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Old 01-02-2018, 08:25 PM   #34
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An investment is a risk in producing a product.

A gamble is a product that is created to produce a gamble.

I checked today and so far, no options on /XBT, to my disappointment.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:26 AM   #35
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A year after I bought my Chicago-area home...I lost the entire 25% down payment that I had submitted, because of the subsequent explosion of the "housing bubble". I kept thinking about how much more fun it would have been to blow that money in Las Vegas.
With most real estate you only "lost" if you sold. People who continued their ownership generally have seen in increase in their investment.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:34 AM   #36
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With most real estate you only "lost" if you sold. People who continued their ownership generally have seen in increase in their investment.
Not unlike those who held equities and didnít sell when the world was supposed to be ending.
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Our brains are way too big for our mother's hips.
So nature she devised this alternative:
We emerge half formed and hope whoever greets us on the other end.
Is kind enough.
To fill us in.
And, babies, that's pretty much how it's been.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:39 AM   #37
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A year after I bought my Chicago-area home...I lost the entire 25% down payment that I had submitted, because of the subsequent explosion of the "housing bubble". I kept thinking about how much more fun it would have been to blow that money in Las Vegas.
Did you miss payments and get foreclosed and kicked to the street, losing all previous payment because you were upside down on the property? If not, how did you lose? In most places, a lower appraisal means lower property taxes - Chicago may be an exception.
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:43 AM   #38
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Did you miss payments and get foreclosed and kicked to the street, losing all previous payment because you were upside down on the property? If not, how did you lose? In most places, a lower appraisal means lower property taxes - Chicago may be an exception.
I lost because my house's value quickly decreased by the exact same 25% that I put as a down-payment...thereby making it seem as if I gave no down-payment at all. It was as if I flushed that 25% down the toilet. And, in the last 12 years, my property taxes for my Chicago-area home have gone UP by 53%...while my house's value now stands at only 79% of what I paid for it. Of course, as AndyC stated, I may still see the house's value climb to its purchase price...if I live long enough. But still...I wish I had taken that 25% down-payment to Las Vegas instead...
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:54 AM   #39
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With most real estate you only "lost" if you sold. People who continued their ownership generally have seen in increase in their investment.
It's odds-on that my home "investment" will never become profitable during my lifetime. However...there is a better-than-average chance that I might recoup my losses by investing in Bitcoin and Ripple.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:47 AM   #40
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Cryptocurrencies are the monies of the future, they are here to stay. It doesn't surprise me old people don't understand and/or can't grasp the concept.
Yep people are stuck in the 1980's thinking. It is the year 2018.
Betcha Fager fan still makes bets at the track.

Hooray for progress in technology.

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Old 01-03-2018, 08:56 AM   #41
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Futures killed the volatility of BTC. It's been stuck between mid 12s-high 13s for quite some time. Staying long, no more trading for me.
LOL. UP 8.3% today as typing this at 14700.

Allan
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:24 AM   #42
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Yep people are stuck in the 1980's thinking. It is the year 2018.
Betcha Fager fan still makes bets at the track.

Hooray for progress in technology.

Allan
Why don't you ask for your next paycheck to be paid in bitcoins? Have fun paying your bills. The only way you'll be able to do so is by finding someone who will exchange it for US dollars. It's not a currency yet, and I predict it never will be. It's just a trading speculation. Not backed by any government or anything. It's a huge Ponzi scheme. All the excitement over this is over speculation or how to use it for illegal purposes. The only way for it to succeed as currency is for there to be no excitement over those two reasons, which would make it no better than the US dollar, so why would I prefer it over the US dollar?

I look forward to the day when all the fools are crying over holding their worthless bitcoins. But congrats on giving millions and millions to the people who first invented the computer play money.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:02 AM   #43
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LOL. UP 8.3% today as typing this at 14700.

Allan
It is difficult to predict when an investment speculative bubble will burst. It was at 18000 the day trading opened.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:41 AM   #44
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It is difficult to predict when an investment speculative bubble will burst. It was at 18000 the day trading opened.
He doesn't even realize the issue with such an increase. Unless it's very stable, it won't be a currency.

As straight currency, would the used car dealer take a $14,700 valued bitcoin over $14,700 in cash? No. It's too volatile. That's in addition to now having to find an auction house to accept bitcoins to buy his next car at auction and utility companies doing the same to pay his bills.

It's playing musical chairs. I'm happy with the fact I won't be left without a chair when the music stops.

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Old 01-03-2018, 10:54 AM   #45
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Why don't you ask for your next paycheck to be paid in bitcoins? Have fun paying your bills. The only way you'll be able to do so is by finding someone who will exchange it for US dollars. It's not a currency yet, and I predict it never will be. It's just a trading speculation. Not backed by any government or anything. It's a huge Ponzi scheme. All the excitement over this is over speculation or how to use it for illegal purposes. The only way for it to succeed as currency is for there to be no excitement over those two reasons, which would make it no better than the US dollar, so why would I prefer it over the US dollar?

I look forward to the day when all the fools are crying over holding their worthless bitcoins. But congrats on giving millions and millions to the people who first invented the computer play money.




I watched the documentary on Netflix which was very detailed about Bitcoin. I can't imagine I would spend a penny on it until its backed by something or more regulated. Its like a fraud wrapped in a con built on a ponzi scheme. It is great for online wagering or drug dealing. Outside that, the only way to make money appears to be buying and hoping hucksters hype it up enough to resell to a bigger sucker. I'll pass for now.
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