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Old 12-30-2017, 04:09 PM   #16
MonmouthParkJoe
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Canít argue with those selections

Anywhere I can find a list of all the people that have a vote?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:14 PM   #17
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Can't change them now, but feel free to rip away.
they don't have best juicer category?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:37 PM   #18
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they don't have best juicer category?
I don't pick the categories. But if that was one:

Best Juicer
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:14 PM   #19
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Why Songbird in the 2 hole?

She only ran 3 times and beat nobody this year.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:44 PM   #20
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Why Songbird in the 2 hole?

She only ran 3 times and beat nobody this year.
Thought it was a weak division, otherwise I wouldn't have picked three start Forever Unbridled 1st. She won her other two and narrowly lost to the champ. It wasn't one of my stronger opinions for sure.

Last edited by cj; 12-30-2017 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:01 PM   #21
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Thought it was a weak division, otherwise I wouldn't have picked three start Forever Unbridled 1st. She won her other two and narrowly lost to the champ. It wasn't one of my stronger opinions for sure.
Alright.

Honestly, my only real "beef" per say on your entire ticket.

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Old 12-30-2017, 08:30 PM   #22
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I'd be fine with that, but plenty of bad trainers and jockeys out there that don't their crafts either.

Other sports do the same thing. Cy Young isn't voted on by pitchers, etc. Interesting discussion.
They may not be very good, but they probably still have more insight into good training jobs than most in the press. It's not who won the most G1 races.

The same goes breeders. There have been years where someone had 3 G1 winners out of a 12-mare broodmare band, yet Godolphin or someone gets the award for having 5 G1 winners out of their 250-mare broodmare band.

The same goes with owners. Repeat the rest of the paragraph above for them. I'd also look at whether they seem to be good managers of not just a star horse who happens to be in their barn, but the others as well, and how sporting they are.

It's been a pet peeve of mine for years that there is seemingly no in-depth thought about what makes those entities exemplary, just pick 3 at or near the top of the earnings list.

I think in sports such as baseball, it doesn't take that much expertise to be able to know quality of play when you see it. With horses, I think few understand that training a sound, talented animal to a G1 win can be a whole lot less difficult than what may be entailed in training another animal. I also don't know of many trainers who don't recognize (and downgrade for) the animals really being trained by others.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:32 PM   #23
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They may not be very good, but they probably still have more insight into good training jobs than most in the press. It's not who won the most G1 races.

The same goes breeders. There have been years where someone had 3 G1 winners out of a 12-mare broodmare band, yet Godolphin or someone gets the award for having 5 G1 winners out of their 250-mare broodmare band.

The same goes with owners. Repeat the rest of the paragraph above for them. I'd also look at whether they seem to be good managers of not just a star horse who happens to be in their barn, but the others as well, and how sporting they are.

It's been a pet peeve of mine for years that there is seemingly no in-depth thought about what makes those entities exemplary, just pick 3 at or near the top of the earnings list.

I think in sports such as baseball, it doesn't take that much expertise to be able to know quality of play when you see it. With horses, I think few understand that training a sound, talented animal to a G1 win can be a whole lot less difficult than what may be entailed in training another animal. I also don't know of many trainers who don't recognize (and downgrade for) the animals really being trained by others.
Great.

Who do suggest?
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:53 PM   #24
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Great.

Who do suggest?
Klaravich should win the Owner's Eclipse. They had 3 different Grade I wins including the Preakness (King's Bishop and Frizette as well) and over 6.4 million in earnings. Juddmonte had $13.2 million in earnings in two races alone. They barely had over $3 million otherwise.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:56 PM   #25
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Why Songbird in the 2 hole?

She only ran 3 times and beat nobody this year.
Did you follow the field from the Ogden Phipps to see how they faired the rest of the year?

Arguably the single most productive race this year.
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Old 12-31-2017, 03:09 AM   #26
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Overall agree. But FM sprint were bad selections.

Ami's Mesa and Bar of Gold over Unique Bella?

Unique Bella won a G2, G1 and G3 sprinting. Also won a G3 and G2 routing which shouldn't count.

Ami's Mesa won a G3 on synthetic and finished second in the Breeders Cup. Other than that, you could have won those sprints at WO.

Bar of Gold finished 2nd in a G3 and won the Breeders Cup. Other than that no sprints in 2017.

You are giving way too much weight to the Breeders Cup. That race simply fell apart and resulted in a bizarre finish.

Unique Bella has a much better resume and is the better horse.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:32 AM   #27
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Klaravich should win the Owner's Eclipse. They had 3 different Grade I wins including the Preakness (King's Bishop and Frizette as well) and over 6.4 million in earnings. Juddmonte had $13.2 million in earnings in two races alone. They barely had over $3 million otherwise.
Problems like these seem to come up all the time in the human categories.

How do you weight connections that had 1 horse that earned a ton of money and most of the Grade 1s vs. the connections that accomplished a little less overall but with a greater variety of horses?

How do you weight connections that have a ton of horses accumulating accomplishments on volume vs. another with with fewer accomplishments but better results based on percentages?

There are no rules or guidelines. It depends on what you personally value.

I remember having an internal debate with myself in the year Bob Baffert won because of American Pharaoah. No one would argue that Baffert was a bad selection. I think he won in a landslide. But I still think Chad Brown had the better overall training year because BB's earnings and Grade1s were heavily weighted by one great horse. CB did it with a variety of horses. He also did well on dirt. The uniqueness of the Triple Crown swung the vote.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:15 PM   #28
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Overall agree. But FM sprint were bad selections.

Ami's Mesa and Bar of Gold over Unique Bella?

Unique Bella won a G2, G1 and G3 sprinting. Also won a G3 and G2 routing which shouldn't count.

Ami's Mesa won a G3 on synthetic and finished second in the Breeders Cup. Other than that, you could have won those sprints at WO.

Bar of Gold finished 2nd in a G3 and won the Breeders Cup. Other than that no sprints in 2017.

You are giving way too much weight to the Breeders Cup. That race simply fell apart and resulted in a bizarre finish.

Unique Bella has a much better resume and is the better horse.
All of Unique Bella's wins were in races restricted to 3yo other than the LA Express race which was a very, very weak race. It was a very weak division this year in my opinion so I weighted the BC quite heavily.

Last edited by cj; 12-31-2017 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:31 PM   #29
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All of Unique Bella's wins were in races restricted to 3yo other than the LA Express race which was a very, very weak race. It was a very weak division this year in my opinion so I weighted the BC quite heavily.
Has there ever been a year that the BC FM sprint champion has not been the eclipse award winner since the race was instituted?

I cant recall one, its a defacto one race award.
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:49 PM   #30
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Problems like these seem to come up all the time in the human categories.

How do you weight connections that had 1 horse that earned a ton of money and most of the Grade 1s vs. the connections that accomplished a little less overall but with a greater variety of horses?

How do you weight connections that have a ton of horses accumulating accomplishments on volume vs. another with with fewer accomplishments but better results based on percentages?

There are no rules or guidelines. It depends on what you personally value.

I remember having an internal debate with myself in the year Bob Baffert won because of American Pharaoah. No one would argue that Baffert was a bad selection. I think he won in a landslide. But I still think Chad Brown had the better overall training year because BB's earnings and Grade1s were heavily weighted by one great horse. CB did it with a variety of horses. He also did well on dirt. The uniqueness of the Triple Crown swung the vote.
The TC really wreaks havoc with these awards. They voted Affirmed HOTY in 1978, which raises the question of how many times would Seattle Slew have had to beat his ass to swing the vote.
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