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Old 03-07-2018, 04:25 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
AlsoEligible, ok , if you want to say the intermediate hubs cause a delay, thats fine. Still no reason why everything , everywhere, can't be on a 5 second or less cycle.
AE already explained that. AE is right. AE is obviously well informed and is trying to enlighten PA members.

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3) Concerns about on-track equipment, TV displays, etc not being able to handle refreshing odds every 4-5 seconds. By the time the public has a chance to look at the board, it's already turning over again. Not to mention older equipment/boards that simply won't be able to handle a refresh rate like that without burning out. This would require a lot of tracks investing in new infield boards and displays around the track, which blows up that $50k estimate.
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:03 AM   #182
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Can't find any old articles on this, but I seem to recall hearing someone proposing the idea of a new "high-speed" network similar to this. That said, the current tote systems/network (at least in North America) are already capable of doing updates every ~5 seconds, if the industry wanted it.

The main reasons this hasn't been done already are:

1) You're only as fast as your slowest/weakest link. The US network can send/receive updates every 5 seconds, but there's also several off-shore sources with crappy networks in places like Central/South America, Africa, etc. Collecting 90% of the money in 5 seconds does no good if you have to wait another 10+ seconds for the other 10%.

So why can't they update the odds with the info from the Us Network every 5 second and just add the data from the crappy offshore networks when they are available? Why do they have to wait for the slower data that I assume is fairly irrelevant anyhow?

2) Certain US states (Florida and Arizona) require money to be sent through multiple tote systems (including an "in-state" system) before it reaches the host. These "double hops" add a lot of latency, something around 10-15 seconds. This isn't a tech problem, it's a legislative one, and good luck getting a state legislator to pay attention to your concerns about updating parimutuel tote networks. We've tried.

3) Concerns about on-track equipment, TV displays, etc not being able to handle refreshing odds every 4-5 seconds. By the time the public has a chance to look at the board, it's already turning over again. Not to mention older equipment/boards that simply won't be able to handle a refresh rate like that without burning out. This would require a lot of tracks investing in new infield boards and displays around the track, which blows up that $50k estimate.

Why is this even a concern? Why can't they update the on track equipment at the same snails pace they currently do as long as the adw's are having their data updated at faster intervals, all is good. If anyone at the track wants a more updated odds they can turn on their smartphone. Couldn't the host track also just put the most current data on their own web site which I assume would update quickest of all.

Right now most tracks are still on 45-60 second updates, and within 3 MTP that time comes down to 20-30 seconds. Over the next couple years the industry will probably try to reduce that further to 10-20, but I don't see it going much lower than that unless the issues above are addressed.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying any of these are good excuses. I'm just explaining what the discussions inside the industry are on this topic, and why things haven't gotten faster. You can decide if they're valid reasons or not.
AE, I have a couple of questions. See above. I don't know much about this tech stuff so...............
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:41 PM   #183
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AE, I have a couple of questions. See above. I don't know much about this tech stuff so...............
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So why can't they update the odds with the info from the Us Network every 5 second and just add the data from the crappy offshore networks when they are available? Why do they have to wait for the slower data that I assume is fairly irrelevant anyhow?
You're right that most of the time offshore money is going to have little to no impact on the odds. It would require re-writing the protocol that all of the totes currently use to commingle handle and calculate odds (which currently forces a system to wait until all money from all wagering sources are received). There's no reason that can't be done, but it circles back to the question of who's volunteering to put in the money and effort to do it. This isn't a bad idea, though.

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Why is this even a concern? Why can't they update the on track equipment at the same snails pace they currently do as long as the adw's are having their data updated at faster intervals, all is good. If anyone at the track wants a more updated odds they can turn on their smartphone. Couldn't the host track also just put the most current data on their own web site which I assume would update quickest of all.
Tracks already don't want people using their smartphones/tablets to go to ADWs while they're at the track. Because you're then more likely to bet through the ADW, rather than to the windows....which means that the track/horsemen/etc get a smaller cut of your handle. This became a big issue in California over the past year, and will probably spill over to other states as everyone tries to salvage their pieces of the shrinking pie.

You may not care about any of that as a player, and I don't blame you. But unfortunately telling tracks "we're going to 5 seconds and your patrons will just have to go to TVG or TwinSpires to see faster odds" would go over like a fart in church.

More and more tracks are rolling out their own mobile sites, where you can view odds and place bets from your smartphone (but all of the bets are treated as if they're made through a window). When that becomes more widespread, then it sort of eliminates the problem above...but like everything else, that's moving at a snail's pace.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:54 PM   #184
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So bottom line is, customers don't matter to the racing industry.
ALL of it is minor league.

Lots of reason why things can't be done, not hearing much of what can be done.

Other than, of course, sto playing and find other avenues of entertainment.

Of which there are many, some of which even respect their customers.

Bad timing, wrong distances, hidden informations, post time overlapping, late odds changes......make me wonder if racing is capable of doing anything correctly.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:47 PM   #185
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So bottom line is, customers don't matter to the racing industry.
ALL of it is minor league.

Lots of reason why things can't be done, not hearing much of what can be done.

Other than, of course, sto playing and find other avenues of entertainment.

Of which there are many, some of which even respect their customers.

Bad timing, wrong distances, hidden informations, post time overlapping, late odds changes......make me wonder if racing is capable of doing anything correctly.

Tom

Back in the day the only players advocate in the room was me, and I was a horseman. That got me in trouble and I had to dial that back somewhat.

Without a voice, the player will be a non factor almost every time.

Hopefully the players are starting to get a voice, at least that's what I read here sometimes, but it is baby steps.

I remember being with a group of about ten people consisting of about 6 trainers, the track super, the general manager of the track and two riders trying to decide whether to run or not at Bowie on a 10 degree morning while walking the track . The jocks had virtually no say in the matter.
That was 1976. Fast forward 40 years and the jocks call ALL the shots. The trainers have no say to speak of. Why? The riders have a voice and it's the only voice when it comes to track safety.
It CAN happen, but it needs a lot more push than is currently available.

If the fans would all get up and walk out at the same time, that would be a start and probably all that would be needed moving forward but we all know that will never happen in the dog eat dog game of gambling.

By the way, we did run that day and cheap claimers were running 9 and change and better. I was 22 then and walking the track with a couple of future hall of famers and a bunch of 50 year olds and in hind sight,we never should have run. It was a terrible decision.
But the handle was up.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:59 PM   #186
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Today's odds - Race 3 at GP

At 1:41pm with half the field loaded

Win pool: $55,591

1 - 3,188 (12)
2 - 12,952 (5/2)
3 - 14,835 (2) Favorite
4 - 12,839 (5/2)
5 - 2,408 (18)
6 - 9,367 (7/2)

At 1:44pm crossing the finish line

Win pool: $92,547

1 - 3,943 (18)
2 - 21,725 (5/2)
3 - 20,672 (5/2)
4 - 30,866 (7/5) Favorite
5 - 3,702 (19)
6 - 11,637 (5)

$36k added into the win pool, in those last couple of minutes
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:25 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by AlsoEligible View Post
I'm not claiming that you need to be part of a syndicate to batch wager through ADW. That's absolutely accessible to anyone who wants to do it.

The post I quoted was talking about batch wagering directly into one of the major tote providers, bypassing any ADW at all. That interface is not available to just anyone who emails a tote company and asks for a hookup.
And while “batch wagering” might not be an advantage by itself, it would certainly be an advantage to be able to make the *last* wager, which I am convinced they figured out how to do, whether it be through superior technology, or whatever.
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:42 PM   #188
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And while “batch wagering” might not be an advantage by itself, it would certainly be an advantage to be able to make the *last* wager, which I am convinced they figured out how to do, whether it be through superior technology, or whatever.
you are right, if i could i would let people without the consuls batch bet, let me bet against them, and i would give them back half of what they lose every month. i couldn't beat the boys with the consuls with a baseball bat and that is what seems to be in these pools now.

i don't think there are more than 10 people that have these $40,000 consuls. i know about them because i was offered one and didn't want to be a slave to them.

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Old 03-07-2018, 04:08 PM   #189
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And while “batch wagering” might not be an advantage by itself, it would certainly be an advantage to be able to make the *last* wager, which I am convinced they figured out how to do, whether it be through superior technology, or whatever.
THEY? Are we assuming there is only one THEY ?

I thought there were a dozen THEYS. THEY cant' all make the last wager can THEY?
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:07 PM   #190
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Ruffian, I totally support any jockey decisions to not race over a suspect track.

You can have a meeting of track-people, trainers, owners, etc, but the whe gate opens, the only ones who might die of never walk again are the jockeys.

You seem to be a decent guy, so thanks for your input.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:40 PM   #191
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So bottom line is, customers don't matter to the racing industry.
ALL of it is minor league.

Lots of reason why things can't be done, not hearing much of what can be done.

Other than, of course, sto playing and find other avenues of entertainment.

Of which there are many, some of which even respect their customers.

Bad timing, wrong distances, hidden informations, post time overlapping, late odds changes......make me wonder if racing is capable of doing anything correctly.
Since the bettors are the ones who want things fixed, why don't the bettors get together and pay for all the updates to fix the things they chronically whine about?
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Old 03-07-2018, 07:43 PM   #192
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Since the bettors are the ones who want things fixed, why don't the bettors get together and pay for all the updates to fix the things they chronically whine about?
bettors are already paying over 30% for superfectas and trifectas at some tracks, they are paying 25% and more for pick 2's and pick 4's. how much more do you want them to pay?
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Old 03-07-2018, 07:44 PM   #193
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Since the bettors are the ones who want things fixed, why don't the bettors get together and pay for all the updates to fix the things they chronically whine about?
A lot of us have taken our wagering dollars and moved them elsewhere. And that is not about to change.

From your response, you are either a horseman or work in track management.
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Old 03-07-2018, 07:48 PM   #194
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Ruffian, I totally support any jockey decisions to not race over a suspect track.

You can have a meeting of track-people, trainers, owners, etc, but the whe gate opens, the only ones who might die of never walk again are the jockeys.

You seem to be a decent guy, so thanks for your input.


Thanks Tom.

What I failed to write though was that IMO the riders SHOULD have the final say. Nobody can tell you the amount of shock and vibration that the horses legs will be asked to absorb more than the person on the horses back. And it is their lives that are on the line as well as the horses. Thankfully, the riders now control that aspect.

Another point I failed to write was the reason they did not have any say back then was because if the leading 4 riders refused to ride, which they did often enough, there were struggling jocks in the room that would say, "I'll ride em". As a result, they had a fractured union. That no longer exists. They stand as one. And THAT is what makes them, or any union, strong.
The downside of that for the customer is that it will be darn near impossible to get all the players on the same page and similarly stand as one. The opportunity will always be there. I just cannot see the public being able to come together as one voice and be willing to walk, or simply place no bets on a race, or a card, if their voice is not heard. It would be great to see though.
If kids in high school can do it, you would think the grown up fans at a particular track could as well. I guess we can hope.
That is what I wanted to say in my last post.
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Old 03-07-2018, 07:52 PM   #195
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A lot of us have taken our wagering dollars and moved them elsewhere. And that is not about to change.

From your response, you are either a horseman or work in track management.
Naw...he just likes to play "devil's advocate"...so he could prove to himself how smart he is.
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