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Old 03-22-2017, 06:13 AM   #16
Murph
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
How is the change of leads accomplished...? Does the horse have both front legs in the air at one time during which the flip is made...? Or is there some subtle shuffle that takes place...is a right lead defined by the right hoof being in front when it touches the ground...? Do the rear legs ever change "leads"...
There are a variety of ways and reasons runners change leads. I need to be better at finding and using these subtle but powerful indicators so I can compete with wagering warriors who use these tools as sharpened swords. My old take on a positive lead change was like the porn judge who said "I know it when I see it."

Many current posters have previously weighed in on this subject. Check out the new "tag" at the bottom of this thread. It's a nice example of the gold mine of information were are sitting on here for anyone to dig into.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Murph View Post
There are a variety of ways and reasons runners change leads. I need to be better at finding and using these subtle but powerful indicators so I can compete with wagering warriors who use these tools as sharpened swords. My old take on a positive lead change was like the porn judge who said "I know it when I see it."

Many current posters have previously weighed in on this subject. Check out the new "tag" at the bottom of this thread. It's a nice example of the gold mine of information were are sitting on here for anyone to dig into.
Lots of people can talk about a horse changing leads and it can be noticed when it happens...but the exact mechanics of the swap remains a mystery to me...some have said there is a slight studder step (what is that?) involved...but really I think it is just which hoof the horse reaches the farthest out with at any given time...would appreciat some slow motion video on this that shows what exactly is going on...it is interesting that trainers can train the horses to to it...the jockey lets the horse know when sometimes...are there any experts out there who can tell us more...?

Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 03-22-2017 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
Lots of people can talk about a horse changing leads and it can be noticed when it happens...but the exact mechanics of the swap remains a mystery to me...some have said there is a slight studder step (what is that?) involved...but really I think it is just which hoof the horse reaches the farthest out with at any given time...would appreciat some slow motion video on this that shows what exactly is going on...it is interesting that trainers can train the horses to to it...the jockey lets the horse know when sometimes...are there any experts out there who can tell us more...?

I will try and help you.

Horses run with one leg extended and one leg for support. Trainers do not teach that. That is how they run. There is no playing with that.
But... because they were made to run in open space and we have them run on ovals, they need to use the inside( left) leg to go around left handed turns turns. Therefore, they use the outside leg to lead on the straightaways.
If you cannot see this switch happen in any replay, google a barrel event or cutting horse video. They go around very sharp turns. You will see them use their inside leg as the lead leg no matter what direction they go in.

You need to watch the legs ONLY of any horse in any race that you can see.
Do not watch anything else.
Most will switch just as they start to straighten away turning for home.
they will slide about 2-3 feet to the right as they turn for home.
This switching is what causes horses to check out of inside positions just before turns. More on that later.
Once you see this, try it on yourself. You will look like a total tool box so do it alone. For everyone's sake Lol.
Do it on carpet if you can.
check your footprints.
You will notice that your running line shifts by the width of you body because your legs are on the outer edges of your torso.
Same with horses which is why a horse inside with a small hole will have that hole close up when the horses in front switch.
Once you see it, it will start to make sense.
At that point, ask another question that I can help you with.
Hope that helps for starters.

Last edited by Ruffian1; 03-22-2017 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 03-22-2017, 07:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
Lots of people can talk about a horse changing leads and it can be noticed when it happens...but the exact mechanics of the swap remains a mystery to me...some have said there is a slight studder step (what is that?) involved...but really I think it is just which hoof the horse reaches the farthest out with at any given time...would appreciat some slow motion video on this that shows what exactly is going on...it is interesting that trainers can train the horses to to it...the jockey lets the horse know when sometimes...are there any experts out there who can tell us more...?
Watch which hind leg strikes the ground first. If it's the left, the horse is on the right lead, and visa versa. This is MUCH easier than trying to discern which front leg is extending.

Runners that switch late , don't switch at all, or worse, switch back and forth, may have physical issues.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:47 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Watch which hind leg strikes the ground first. If it's the left, the horse is on the right lead, and visa versa. This is MUCH easier than trying to discern which front leg is extending.

Runners that switch late , don't switch at all, or worse, switch back and forth, may have physical issues.
This is what a closer look thru the lifetime PP's reveal about Sparkle Slew. When this happens there is something making her uncomfortable physically. My question for mountainman was kind of redundant. He's spoken on the subject before and I have plenty of information available to make the correct judgement on this one.

What we all receive now is an excellent tip on how to watch for the lead change in action! I have not heard this before about a thoroughbred stride but this is the same way I watch standardbreds run in gait. The rear legs show better when the runner is struggling to keep on stride.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:34 PM   #21
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http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-work-in-ocala

RE: Classic Empire
"The Pioneerof the Nile colt has refused to breeze twice since being scratched Feb. 19 from the March 4 Xpressbet.com Fountain of Youth Stakes (G2) due to a hoof abscess."

Hoof abcess or any foot ailment seems like as good a reason as any for a runner to not change leads properly. I only know of these kind of issues when it's media reported for a stakes level horse.

Makes me want to ask how many on a typical card go to the gate within 30 days or so of being treated for hoof ailments. I expect it is very common but I don't know. Most runners appear to change instinctively when in top form. Recovery from those type of injuries might explain some form reversal and layoff winners!
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:00 AM   #22
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To me, it is vital to take notes on exactly how and when every horse changes leads in the entire race (not just the stretch).
Very smart.
I thought I was beginning to be an expert on lead changes, a few years ago, and someone sent me a private message regarding a highly regarded horse who had just won a triple crown prep. The horse hadn't changed leads in a part of the race I wasn't scouting.
Not only did the horse then disappear from the Triple Crown Trail, he showed up months later and lost a couple races as a heavy favorite.
Eventually, he did win a big stakes race the following year.

Always something to learn. Always potential for seeing something valuable.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:06 PM   #23
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Watch which hind leg strikes the ground first. If it's the left, the horse is on the right lead, and visa versa. This is MUCH easier than trying to discern which front leg is extending.

Runners that switch late , don't switch at all, or worse, switch back and forth, may have physical issues.

Before this thread l have always tried to look at the front legs but could never catch it. This helps thanks.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:30 PM   #24
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Before this thread l have always tried to look at the front legs but could never catch it. This helps thanks.

I'd have thought this would be something that just comes naturally after watching enough races.

Of course, lead changes are not as evident in the headon view.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:38 PM   #25
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Slow-motion horse

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...9&action=click

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...700c422c48269e



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Old 03-23-2017, 11:02 PM   #26
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Slow-motion horse Delta Downs

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...b8&action=view

At 6:25 in the video the horse is running on his left lead from the turn, then at 6:30 he switches to right lead...watch the rear hoofs, right rear down first equals left lead, then left rear down first equals right lead..

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Old 03-24-2017, 02:38 AM   #27
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One of the most famous examples of refusing to change leads is below. Probably cost Firing Line the Derby. Showed he had some health issues. Stevens confirmed in an interview after the race the horse stayed on one lead the whole race. He compared it to carrying a suitcase in one hand for a mile and a quarter without changing hands. Ran up the track in the Preakness - he should have never been in that race given his stretch run in the Derby. Tried to make a comeback but was never the same horse and had to be retired. Soft tissue injury. At lower level claiming races, you see horses refusing to change leads all the time and sometimes they can get away it. If you see it at the stakes level, big red flag. Regardless, you need to watch for it.


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Old 03-27-2017, 04:24 AM   #28
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Some famous lead switchers include Strike The .gold in the Derby, I believe he switched leads W 70 yards remaining in the race.

Alydar didn't switch leads in his battles w affirmed, probably cost him at least one of those races, Strike the gold has Alydar blood lines, maybe lead switching hereditary?

Fun fact was that Ruffian (the horse, not the poster!) was usually on the wrong lead too, I'm not sure if she ever switched leads in the stretch.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:23 AM   #29
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Some famous lead switchers include Strike The .gold in the Derby, I believe he switched leads W 70 yards remaining in the race.

Alydar didn't switch leads in his battles w affirmed, probably cost him at least one of those races, Strike the gold has Alydar blood lines, maybe lead switching hereditary?

Fun fact was that Ruffian (the horse, not the poster!) was usually on the wrong lead too, I'm not sure if she ever switched leads in the stretch.
I find myself on the wrong lead from time to time.
Happens to the best of us.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:49 PM   #30
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Hi everyone! Sorry to jump in as a stranger (unless you happen to know me as Flute from thoroughbredchampions lol but I hardly post there anymore), but I thought I might add a little more to the technical explanation of this, in case anyone was really THAT curious.

When a horse gallops, they are starting their stride by pushing off with one hind foot, then they move to the other hind foot, and the diagonally opposite front foot, followed lastly by the other front foot (that would be the "lead" that people tend to look at). I would Google "horse gallop foot falls" if you really want to see this visually, there are good diagrams out there that show the "Z" shape. After they move off that final front foot, there is a period of time in the stride where they are completely off the ground (this is also called the "gathering" stage of the stride). This little horse below is demonstrating that part of the stride quite nicely.

This gathering part of the stride is where the horse changes his lead, and he simply switches to pushing off with the other hind foot at that point and then reverses the foot falls. This is something they do naturally in the wild, every horse knows how to do it even though some are more adept at it than others. It happens right in stride, there is no stutterstep or other kind of hesitation that would change the forward momentum of the horse unless they are doing something REALLY weird, and I wouldn't imagine they would finish out the race well in that case.

Ok, back to lurking and fiddling with my little handicapping program (I'm a web/python dev), nice to meet you all.

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