Cheating in Racing Today

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by cj

The whole point of the article was that horses are being drugged with things that won't show up in tests. What good are positive test stats in that light?

I've talked to vets and equine pharmacologists and have asked them whether there can be many substances that have a PED effect and do no show up among the 1,800 substances the modern GCMS can detect. For the most part they are stumped. Obviously I don't have the training to know what the answer is, but think about it for a minute. If you asked a pharmacologist to speculate on what sort of substance could be out there and undetectable, if he actually knows the answer it becomes a matter of adding that test. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but considering how long they've been playing cat and mouse with dopers, tough to figure out what it could be. Then, you have to find someone to compound it - I mean if it was a known substance we'd already be testing for it. You have to have a distribution network that is totally underground. And then you have to have racing commissions that ignore it. That's a lot of pieces that would have to fall into place.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

If you've seen this situation happen on more than one occasion, why didn't you take out your I-phone, I-pad, etc. and gets this on video? If you REALLY cared about what you say, wouldn't it behoove you to get evidence, at the least, in this manner?.....I'm not buying your devotion to the integrity of the sport when you just walk away.

You are off base. He's been out of the game a while, certainly before iPhones and iPads.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Mr. Halvey...it was YOU who turned this thread into a conversation about Joe Gorajec and Indiana Racing. Before your interjection, we were talking about cheating in GENERAL...and we were voicing our opinions about it. NONE of us here are trying to "destroy" anyone; we are just commenting about a topic that's "near and dear" to all of us -- a topic that directly affects our finances.

And if we are "speculating" here...SO WHAT? Isn't that what horseplayers are SUPPOSED to do? Are you attempting here to deprive the horseplayer of his inherent right to SPECULATE?

Actually the editorial that started the thread was written by Gorajec. That makes him fair game.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

If you've seen this situation happen on more than one occasion, why didn't you take out your I-phone, I-pad, etc. and gets this on video? If you REALLY cared about what you say, wouldn't it behoove you to get evidence, at the least, in this manner?.....I'm not buying your devotion to the integrity of the sport when you just walk away.

I could be wrong, and he can correct me if so, R2, but I believe Ruffian1 left training, and the industry, long before the introduction of I-phones and I-pads. Years before the advent of any smart device as we know them today. Something tells me the stewards, the racing secretaries wouldn't cotton to him walking in with a tape recorder, asking, "where can I plug it in, fellas?" I remember, too, when the first video camcorders by Sony were the size of one that could be seen on a movie lot today.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by cj

You are off base. He's been out of the game a while, certainly before iPhones and iPads.

Sorry. I didn't see your post. My bad.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by GatetoWire

Not the infamous spleen argument again!!
The spleen argument is complete BS

I guess the horses that I have seen put on Epogen and improved exponentially must have been missing their spleens!!

Or maybe the trainers used an anti-coagulant in conjunction with the EPO!!!

Whoever said the truth will set you free never posted here. How many medical people have to say something until you believe it is true?

[NorCalGreg]

Originally Posted by cj

What is wrong with a bettor wanting a clean game? Can't the two be separate issues?

The same thing wrong with a trainer who blames the game. A trainer is ultimately in the business of winning horse races--either adapt, change with the game in whatever way necessary...or find another game

Same goes for a horse bettor, store owner, or any other pursuit in life.

They have a saying in the infantry---

"lead, follow, or get out of the way"

A "bettor" wanting a clean game is worried about his bottom line...ultimately.

My position as a "bettor" ...isn't as chaste as wanting a clean game, because it's morally correct.. I doubt any other bettor or trainer's stance is much different.

[cj]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

I've talked to vets and equine pharmacologists and have asked them whether there can be many substances that have a PED effect and do no show up among the 1,800 substances the modern GCMS can detect. For the most part they are stumped. Obviously I don't have the training to know what the answer is, but think about it for a minute. If you asked a pharmacologist to speculate on what sort of substance could be out there and undetectable, if he actually knows the answer it becomes a matter of adding that test. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but considering how long they've been playing cat and mouse with dopers, tough to figure out what it could be. Then, you have to find someone to compound it - I mean if it was a known substance we'd already be testing for it. You have to have a distribution network that is totally underground. And then you have to have racing commissions that ignore it. That's a lot of pieces that would have to fall into place.

This is the exact reason that Olympians are subject to OOC testing. It isn't mystery substances. It is getting the test while it is still in the system. The effects last long after the test will come back clean. If they didn't, people wouldn't be using them. What would be the point?

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Ruffian 1...may I ask you an honest question?

You had the option and the means to move on to something else instead of compromising your integrity...but, what about those "honest" trainers who have no other readily identifiable way of earning a living? When the stewards turn their backs on these trainers...what else are they left to do? Sit there and watch the cheaters ply their trade undisturbed?

Starting a new career at age 46 with 3 kids getting ready for college and no formal training in anything wasn't much option but I felt I could do it. Thankfully, it worked out as well as it did.

There are many truly gifted trainers who are as honest as they come. They can stay the course because they are really fine horsemen or women. But for those trainers that were very average or below average , they retire, give up training and become agents, or asst. trainers or do what it takes to make a buck or just plod through with a few horses. And yes, some will have to decide that if others are doing things, they must as well. I know it sounds kind of vague and I'm sorry for that but that's what I've seen from the other honest trainers. And do know, they were the majority not the minority.

Lastly,I don't know if the 24 hour rule has been cleaned up at all. No clue and honestly no interest .

Hope that helps.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by cj

You are off base. He's been out of the game a while, certainly before iPhones and iPads.

My bad......didn't see a time-frame listed by the poster.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

If you've seen this situation happen on more than one occasion, why didn't you take out your I-phone, I-pad, etc. and gets this on video? If you REALLY cared about what you say, wouldn't it behoove you to get evidence, at the least, in this manner?.....I'm not buying your devotion to the integrity of the sport when you just walk away.

It was the summer of 2000. Would have been a camcorder and are you suggesting that I go on a one man crusade to catch people doing illegal things that I work with daily? Seriously?
Yes, I REALLY cared about what I said. It was my livelihood. At the time it was all I knew.

I will pass on the rest of what you said.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

It was the summer of 2000. Would have been a camcorder and are you suggesting that I go on a one man crusade to catch people doing illegal things that I work with daily? Seriously?
Yes, I REALLY cared about what I said. It was my livelihood. At the time it was all I knew.

Please disregard my post in it's entirety.....My apologies, sir.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by NorCalGreg[b

]The same thing wrong with a trainer who blames the game. A trainer is ultimately in the business of winning horse races--either adapt, change with the game in whatever way necessary...or find another game [/b]

Same goes for a horse bettor, store owner, or any other pursuit in life.

They have a saying in the infantry---

"lead, follow, or get out of the way"

A "bettor" wanting a clean game is worried about his bottom line...ultimately.

My position as a "bettor" ...isn't as chaste as wanting a clean game, because it's morally correct.. I doubt any other bettor or trainer's stance is much different.

I found another game rather than be a cheating piece of crap. Hope your ok with that.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Please disregard my post in it's entirety.....My apologies, sir.

No problem. It's forgotten.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by cj

The whole point of the article was that horses are being drugged with things that won't show up in tests. What good are positive test stats in that light?

Mr. Halvey obviously thinks that if it doesn't show up in the testing...then it doesn't exist.