Songbird Alabama

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I would buy this argument about why people run no chance entries in the Ky Derby.

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.

Yes, owners from all over the country yearn to win at Los Alamitos.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

I'm a 57 year old west coast guy. I've never been to Saratoga and I agree with thespaah.

Time to break down and give the SPA a whirl. its a great track.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

But Saratoga? The vast, vast majority of people in this gane do not give two hoots about Saratoga as a "special" place. That is a totally parochial, New York view.

LOL. why do you think American Pharoah ran in the Travers last year against the trainers advice?

He wanted to win it so much there, he could taste it.

Allan

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

One way to determine whether this is true is to look at average field sizes of big open stakes at Saratoga. Are they any larger than those at Del Mar, for instance? I've seen plenty of 5 horse (and even a few 4 and 3 horse) fields in the major Saratoga stakes over the years.

In what universe is field size in major stakes indicative of meet quality? Just because a race has such a weak favorite that it invites a lot of inferior horses to clutter up the field is no indication of quality. Great horses make great meets and great horses scare away sub par horses resulting in smaller more select fields. Give me a race with a small but select field, making a fair result more likely, any day.

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

One way to determine whether this is true is to look at average field sizes of big open stakes at Saratoga. Are they any larger than those at Del Mar, for instance? I've seen plenty of 5 horse (and even a few 4 and 3 horse) fields in the major Saratoga stakes over the years.

Dilanesp, I REALLY wish you were right because I think winning at these meets is overrated and I think the stockpiling of horse flesh for the meets hurts racing but you're not right. Lots of outfits put lots of added value at winning at both Saratoga and Del Mar.

There's a lot of evidence that supports this (wait till the last 2-3 weeks of Saratoga when you Ken Ramsey dropping everything to win the owners title) but you really don't need to look further than yesterday.

Barclay Tagg won the 5th race by 5+ lengths with a maiden for Fipke he'd been sitting on since a second place finish in December at Gulstream. The horse got pounded down to 2-1 off works that were called A by the clockers. In hindsight he could have ran this horse weeks ago maybe eve a month ago in a variety of spots downstate and won. Fipke loves Saratoga so they waited.

Then over at Del Mar Jeff Mullins had a horse jog in the last race off a nine month layoff. The race was a maiden $20K all be it a one with a larger field with more special weight droppers than usual. In hindsight this horse would have won any maiden $20K run at Santa Anita or Los Al the last 4-6 weeks and they run one almost everyday in SoCal. But Mullins is a big Del Mar guy so he waited.

Given the extent people go to win ordinary races on the undercard can you imagine what people do to try and win graded stakes?

[Fager Fan]

I've never heard of anyone wanting to win a race just because it's run at Saratoga. There may be a few, but instead I think they want to win a graded stakes, and they happen to be at Saratoga during a specific period. The only time I've heard of winning a race at the Spa as being a positive is when talking of a 2yo for the general reason that winning a MSW there probably meant you beat some decent horses.

Ramsey doesn't count. He gets off on winning owner titles, and think he's the only owner who cares at all about that.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

Dilanesp, I REALLY wish you were right because I think winning at these meets is overrated and I think the stockpiling of horse flesh for the meets hurts racing but you're not right. Lots of outfits put lots of added value at winning at both Saratoga and Del Mar.

There's a lot of evidence that supports this (wait till the last 2-3 weeks of Saratoga when you Ken Ramsey dropping everything to win the owners title) but you really don't need to look further than yesterday.

Barclay Tagg won the 5th race by 5+ lengths with a maiden for Fipke he'd been sitting on since a second place finish in December at Gulstream. The horse got pounded down to 2-1 off works that were called A by the clockers. In hindsight he could have ran this horse weeks ago maybe eve a month ago in a variety of spots downstate and won. Fipke loves Saratoga so they waited.

Then over at Del Mar Jeff Mullins had a horse jog in the last race off a nine month layoff. The race was a maiden $20K all be it a one with a larger field with more special weight droppers than usual. In hindsight this horse would have won any maiden $20K run at Santa Anita or Los Al the last 4-6 weeks and they run one almost everyday in SoCal. But Mullins is a big Del Mar guy so he waited.

Given the extent people go to win ordinary races on the undercard can you imagine what people do to try and win graded stakes?

I bet there was another reason than winning at the Spa to spend $28k or so in training costs just to have him in a holding pattern for 7 months.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I've never heard of anyone wanting to win a race just because it's run at Saratoga. There may be a few, but instead I think they want to win a graded stakes, and they happen to be at Saratoga during a specific period. The only time I've heard of winning a race at the Spa as being a positive is when talking of a 2yo for the general reason that winning a MSW there probably meant you beat some decent horses.

Ramsey doesn't count. He gets off on winning owner titles, and think he's the only owner who cares at all about that.

I can't speak to that at Saratoga.

But I can say over my career I've met over a thousand owners that wanted to win just because it was Del Mar.

Hundreds of which would never even have thought about buying into a horse if winning at the beach wasn't on their horseracing bucket list.

[the little guy]

I can't speak for Del Mar, though I imagine it's much the same, but as far as Saratoga, the notion that winning here isn't considered anything special is laughably incorrect. It's a big deal, even to the biggest owners. It's really as simple as that.

It's OK, you know, for there to be some things about racing that people like. Everything doesn't have to suck all the time.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

Yes, owners from all over the country yearn to win at Los Alamitos.

Never said that. Los Al sucks.

But this Saratoga "mystique" doesn't exist as compared to major races on other circuits. For instance, there's likely to be four top horses entered in the Pacific Classic. I don't think any of their connections even considered the Whitney.

(In contrast, as I said earlier, the Kentucky Derby DOES have that mystique. People enter even no chance horses because they want to be there.)

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

In what universe is field size in major stakes indicative of meet quality? Just because a race has such a weak favorite that it invites a lot of inferior horses to clutter up the field is no indication of quality. Great horses make great meets and great horses scare away sub par horses resulting in smaller more select fields. Give me a race with a small but select field, making a fair result more likely, any day.

Read the start of the thread. The whole argument here is whether there are going to be no chance entrants that show up against Songbird at Saratoga.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Never said that. Los Al sucks.

But this Saratoga "mystique" doesn't exist as compared to major races on other circuits. For instance, there's likely to be four top horses entered in the Pacific Classic. I don't think any of their connections even considered the Whitney.

(In contrast, as I said earlier, the Kentucky Derby DOES have that mystique. People enter even no chance horses because they want to be there.)

This has to be an act.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Never said that. Los Al sucks.

But this Saratoga "mystique" doesn't exist as compared to major races on other circuits. For instance, there's likely to be four top horses entered in the Pacific Classic. I don't think any of their connections even considered the Whitney.

(In contrast, as I said earlier, the Kentucky Derby DOES have that mystique. People enter even no chance horses because they want to be there.)

This is how I feel about Saratoga. Just substitute Saratoga for Iowa.

John Kinsella: Is this heaven?
Ray Kinsella: It's Iowa.
John Kinsella: Iowa? I could have sworn this was heaven.
[starts to walk away]
Ray Kinsella: Is there a heaven?
John Kinsella: Oh yeah. It's the place where dreams come true.
Ray Kinsella: Maybe this is heaven.

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I bet there was another reason than winning at the Spa to spend $28k or so in training costs just to have him in a holding pattern for 7 months.

My point was that since both of them jogged they probably could have raced a month ago in a softer spot at Belmont or SA and jogged. Clearly the connections were waiting for their races versus racing them when they were ready.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by the little guy

I can't speak for Del Mar, though I imagine it's much the same, but as far as Saratoga, the notion that winning here isn't considered anything special is laughably incorrect. It's a big deal, even to the biggest owners. It's really as simple as that.

It's OK, you know, for there to be some things about racing that people like. Everything doesn't have to suck all the time.

I know a number of owners who have raced there or have the opportunity to do so, and I've never heard it said. Nor can I remember reading in 20+ years any owner quoted as wanting to win a race just because it's Saratoga. Maybe it's all just eluded me.