Belmont Derby, Oaks?

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

I do. As I said, firmer ground and lasix can make a difference. Secretariat generally gets the same sort of runner as this race and that BC Classic as you well know was a mess. That one was better on dirt anyway. Cox Plate win was a big deal though so I'll grant you that one but he was definitely still on the improve late in the season as his loss in this race but later strong success shows. Believe I had him on top for the Belmont Derby that year. Oops.

Again this race does not and likely will not ever get the "excellent horses" as the comment I was reacting to. A horse like Harzand or US Army Ranger would rip this field nine times out of ten and this is a fairly weak year. Former top middle distance 3yos like Australia or Sea the Stars would beat this lot by a pole.

The horses you mentioned are better than "excellent" horses. Believe it our not, Toast of New York and Adelaide were excellent horses. Gailo Chop was pretty good as well. You are going out of your way to knock this. Not your usual stuff.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by the little guy

The horses you mentioned are better than "excellent" horses. Believe it our not, Toast of New York and Adelaide were excellent horses. Gailo Chop was pretty good as well. You are going out of your way to knock this. Not your usual stuff.

Excellent by whose frame of reference? And why is this knocking the race? It gets a good competitive field but it simply isn't as strong a race as the G2 Humphrey Bogart just ran at Ascot. There is nothing wrong with that but it just isn't.

Excellent British and Irish horses aren't running in 3yo restricted races at this point of the year. That's because there aren't any restricted G1s left other than the St Leger, and that is a different beast, and only one G2 in July. Excellent 3yos are preparing to run against older at this point. The ones that are opting for this would previously be going for G3s and listed races if they weren't ready for older. Not to say the foreign horses might not improve like Adelaide did, but at this point they are not excellent in relation to their peers in their home country.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Excellent by whose frame of reference? And why is this knocking the race? It gets a good competitive field but it simply isn't as strong a race as the G2 Humphrey Bogart just ran at Ascot. There is nothing wrong with that but it just isn't.

Excellent British and Irish horses aren't running in 3yo restricted races at this point of the year. That's because there aren't any restricted G1s left other than the St Leger, and that is a different beast, and only one G2 in July. Excellent 3yos are preparing to run against older at this point. The ones that are opting for this would previously be going for G3s and listed races if they weren't ready for older. Not to say the foreign horses might not improve like Adelaide did, but at this point they are not excellent in relation to their peers in their home country.

So a Grade 1 3YO restricted race on turf in the US is not as good as a Grade 2 at Royal Ascot??? Who knew Al? You're really covering some new ground in this argument of semantics.

I can't tell if you are bent on knocking NYRA, trying to be overly pretentious demonstrating your knowledge of European racing, or just being silly. I'll get back to you on it later:-)

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by the little guy

So a Grade 1 3YO restricted race on turf in the US is not as good as a Grade 2 at Royal Ascot??? Who knew Al? You're really covering some new ground in this argument of semantics.

I can't tell if you are bent on knocking NYRA, trying to be overly pretentious demonstrating your knowledge of European racing, or just being silly. I'll get back to you on it later:-)

No, usually not. I see a first time in US starter in Gr1 who has won a G2 in England, Ireland, or France, he's my top pick. Not saying either there may be a US horse or two in the race that wouldn't be competitive, but on average the G2 field is better.

The rest of what you have to say here is completely ridiculous. First off, if I was so against NYRA, why do I still show up to help out at the Belmont Stakes for nothing? And frankly, I didn't think you followed European racing at all. I know a few years ago you didn't pay any attention to it. You want to counter my opinion, fine, but there are real arguments you could make instead of coming off like a schill. I know you and know you are smarter than that.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

No, usually not. I see a first time in US starter in Gr1 who has won a G2 in England, Ireland, or France, he's my top pick. Not saying either there may be a US horse or two in the race that wouldn't be competitive, but on average the G2 field is better.

The rest of what you have to say here is completely ridiculous. First off, if I was so against NYRA, why do I still show up to help out at the Belmont Stakes for nothing? And frankly, I didn't think you followed European racing at all. I know a few years ago you didn't pay any attention to it. You want to counter my opinion, fine, but there are real arguments you could make instead of coming off like a schill. I know you and know you are smarter than that.

OK, Al, now you are just writing BS. At least now we know what's really going on here.

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by the little guy

OK, Al, now you are just writing BS. At least now we know what's really going on here.

Really? You mean like when you didn't know who Sea the Stars was before the Epsom Derby until I told you, you were closely following European racing? You mean the time I told you Ffos Las was not polytrack as you had just announced on Talking Horses, but you decided you were right so no need to correct the error? Sure Andy, whatever. I guess I'm just a NYRA hater now because despite everything I've ever done, I've dared to disagree with you on this.

BTW the reason the European group races are better fields is because anyone who is any good has to show up because there aren't alternatives to duck to. The Belmont Derby lucked out when Colonial collapsed and we lost the Virginia Derby. Otherwise you would have had a much weaker race. How much better would the Sword Dancer be if the Arlington Million wasn't running within a week if not on the same weekend as it had for some years? How much better would the Travers be if you didn't have quality horses going off to run in the Haskell or the almighty Pennsylvania Derby? US races are diluted, both turf and dirt. Gr1s generally get a couple Gr1 caliber runners, a couple Gr2 runners and some filler. And those are supposed to be the top races. Everything has been turned into a prep for the Breeder's Cup, including what was used to be a great month of October at Belmont. Still very good but not what it was.

Doesn't happen that way in the top Euro races. Top to bottom they are better because class ranks have to shake out more tightly there than here. G3 runners simply don't jump up and win G1 races as often as happens here. G1s are full of G1 caliber horses with a couple trying to step up from G2. If you paid much attention to European racing you would see that all the way from the lowest class handicaps to the top rated stakes races.

[burnsy]

I think its a great idea. But does anyone know why they don't have it this weekend for the holiday? Am I missing something? Because I think this new "attraction" has a nice draw. It seems to go well but why not milk the holiday weekend?

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by burnsy

I think its a great idea. But does anyone know why they don't have it this weekend for the holiday? Am I missing something? Because I think this new "attraction" has a nice draw. It seems to go well but why not milk the holiday weekend?

I would guess because of

1) race scheduling (horse's timing races right)

2) they factor a decent crowd on this weekend anyway. Next weekend is a blah weekend (post holiday weekend), so the races can spruce up an average weekend.

Just my 2 cents.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by burnsy

I think its a great idea. But does anyone know why they don't have it this weekend for the holiday? Am I missing something? Because I think this new "attraction" has a nice draw. It seems to go well but why not milk the holiday weekend?

Holiday weekends are actually mediocre for racing/sports as most people are involved with family activities ( barbecues, vacations, etc ). I understand it sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. Baseball teams would prefer not to play home games on Memorial Day, July 4th, and Labor Day.

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Holiday weekends are actually mediocre for racing/sports as most people are involved with family activities ( barbecues, vacations, etc ). I understand it sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. Baseball teams would prefer not to play home games on Memorial Day, July 4th, and Labor Day.

Oh I see. That's seems like pretty good logic because on Memorial Day weekend and the 4th people do have a thousand other things they can do. I'm not married but I can see some guys would be catching flack if they wanted to pay attention to the track all day on those holidays. It seems great to some one like me that has grown kids and no wife but it is probably better if they stagger it the week after. Not everyone can be a "weekend degenerate" like the less attached people can. That's probably a good call too now that you guys (Little Guy and END4ME) bring that up. Not everyone can drop everything on those weekends and bet, luckily my girlfriend could care less.....I'm out of her hair for a few hours......lol. And you guys already know I'm a hyper pain in the ass.

[lamboguy]

maybe holidays are bad days to race. i was just looking for entries for monday's cards and saw that Monmouth doesn't have a card. as far as i know they usually run on July 4th. correct me if i am wrong. they probably read this thread and decided not to run.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

maybe holidays are bad days to race. i was just looking for entries for monday's cards and saw that Monmouth doesn't have a card. as far as i know they usually run on July 4th. correct me if i am wrong. they probably read this thread and decided not to run.

as luck would have it, they just put up the july 4th card