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Old 06-22-2016, 09:54 PM   #46
johnhannibalsmith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperPickle
I met this guy 100 times in other shapes and forms. I know the lyrics.

"I remember when these stands were full... on a WEDNESDAY."
"I remember when a good horse raced every week."
"I remember when the Jockey Club Gold Cup was a prestigous race."
"I remember when a trainer was a horseman first."
"None of these bums could could be Arcaro's valet."
"The Breeders Cup ruined the sport."


That was unfortunately kind of what I felt like I was reading. Nothing against the guy, he's obviously been an important influence and there was a point when I gave dosage at least some consideration too. But, I really didn't expect to click and read that, as someone else called it, manifesto, as a parting gift.
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Old 06-22-2016, 09:59 PM   #47
dilanesp
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Originally Posted by SuperPickle
I met this guy 100 times in other shapes and forms. I know the lyrics.

"I remember when these stands were full... on a WEDNESDAY."
"I remember when a good horse raced every week."
"I remember when the Jockey Club Gold Cup was a prestigous race."
"I remember when a trainer was a horseman first."
"None of these bums could could be Arcaro's valet."
"The Breeders Cup ruined the sport."
Of all of them, the complaints about the Breeders' Cup take the cake for me.

Of course the Breeders' Cup isn't perfect. But it does usually put together at least 10 amazingly competitive bettable races that bring together top horses from all over the country, and put them on before 50,000 spectators while bringing in over $100 million in betting.

In contrast, those New York races that Roman so fondly remembers often had short fields and often led to big disputes about year-end championships. Further, even when they didn't, it was usually because some good horse from California (or somewhere else) was ignored because the bulk of the voting was by writers who worked in New York. And while there was a time when there were 50,000 on hand for a big Saturday race at Aqueduct, that was more than 50 years ago; even in the 1970's, most of the big races in New York had seen big drops in attendance.

Some of the other things he's pissed off about I agree with (I especially don't like the infrequency with which good horses race these days). But the Breeders' Cup is one of the few things that this sport has done that was really right.
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by tucker6
Do you use any semblance of dosage in your own personal methodologies? What I see in a bunch of posts is that dosage had a place in the sport 30 years ago, but that influence has waned, so am fishing for whether that is true or not. If don't use any sort of dosage, what led you in that direction? You can be general if you'd like so as not to give away any proprietary info.
I will start my answering the second part of your question first.

When I came into the game breeding was “the talk of the town” so to speak and the big breeding farms like Lanes End, Calumet, Gainesway, and others appeared to be stallion rich or least I thought so at the time.

Also racing was in its heyday with likes of such racing greats as Dr. Fager, Buckpasser, Shuvee, and Damascus to name a few of the great horses racing at that time.

At the track breeding was readily talked about and Dr. Roman’s dosage became the reference of choice even though its target was the TC races, the sires used in Roman’s methodology was thought as the producers of champions.

Therefore being a youngster and a “newbie” at the time I was fascinated with Roman’s methodology and I jumped in head first; and later I added Beyer speed figure methodology.

However being trained in science I would eventually move away from both Roman and Beyer methodologies and toward an encapsulated predictive model which I use today.
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:54 PM   #49
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I thought it was an excellent piece by Mr. Roman. The only thing I disagreed with was the part about the synthetic tracks being put in because they would save money in the long run due to less cancellations.

I've always found dosage interesting and I still use it to check pedigrees as a basic reference point.

The highest priced winner I've ever hit on a win bet was $150, a first time starter. I bet the horse because it had a high DI in a short 4.5 or 5 furlong two year old sprint, something like a 6.0, and the other horses in the race had stamina-type, low dosage numbers. I actually hit quite a few bombs using that same theory.
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Old 06-22-2016, 10:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
... But the Breeders' Cup is one of the few things that this sport has done that was really right.
Wasn't it Marge something at Hollywood Park, one of the driving forces of the BC?
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:03 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cratos
... At the track breeding was readily talked about and Dr. Roman’s dosage became the reference of choice even though its target was the TC races, the sires used in Roman’s methodology was thought as the producers of champions.

Therefore being a youngster and a “newbie” at the time I was fascinated with Roman’s methodology and I jumped in head first; and later I added Beyer speed figure methodology.

However being trained in science I would eventually move away from both Roman and Beyer methodologies and toward an encapsulated predictive model which I use today.
Way back when, where did you get your D.I. numbers because there was no internet and I don't recall them being published or sold?

I do recall articles probably on DRF but just never got into it.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
Of all of them, the complaints about the Breeders' Cup take the cake for me.

Of course the Breeders' Cup isn't perfect. But it does usually put together at least 10 amazingly competitive bettable races that bring together top horses from all over the country, and put them on before 50,000 spectators while bringing in over $100 million in betting.

In contrast, those New York races that Roman so fondly remembers often had short fields and often led to big disputes about year-end championships. Further, even when they didn't, it was usually because some good horse from California (or somewhere else) was ignored because the bulk of the voting was by writers who worked in New York. And while there was a time when there were 50,000 on hand for a big Saturday race at Aqueduct, that was more than 50 years ago; even in the 1970's, most of the big races in New York had seen big drops in attendance.

Some of the other things he's pissed off about I agree with (I especially don't like the infrequency with which good horses race these days). But the Breeders' Cup is one of the few things that this sport has done that was really right.

Yeah I used to be floored by the amount of older racing fans who hated the Breeders Cup. I understand that the Cup has dramatically altered the stakes schedule post Saratoga and Del Mar. Yes it's clearly watered down these races. Yes it's really hurt races like the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

However it's given more. We've had numerous horses meet who never would have. We also now have top class Euros come over every year. Prior to the Cup we almost never had Arc winners or Euro champions come over.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:29 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SuperPickle

However it's given more. We've had numerous horses meet who never would have. We also now have top class Euros come over every year. Prior to the Cup we almost never had Arc winners or Euro champions come over.
It ruined the DC International, did a number on the Canadian International, and changed the NY Fall Turf Stakes schedule, all races that had a history of drawing some very good Euros. I don't disagree that it has encouraged a lot more Euros, particularly milers like Miesque and others, but it's overall impact on Euro routers coming to the US, as well as damaging the racing landscape in that division, was pretty negative. However, I'm sure it's far from the only reason for that.

You could also argue it has mitigated some top horses meeting during the year.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:39 PM   #54
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It ruined the DC International, did a number on the Canadian International, and changed the NY Fall Turf Stakes schedule, all races that had a history of drawing some very good Euros. I don't disagree that it has encouraged a lot more Euros, particularly milers like Miesque and others, but it's overall impact on Euro routers coming to the US, as well as damaging the racing landscape in that division, was pretty negative. However, I'm sure it's far from the only reason for that.

You could also argue it has mitigated some top horses meeting during the year.
Yeah it definitely did a number on the October Grade Ones.

I go back and forth on the top horses meeting during the year. I use Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta. They wanted to race Rachel against the boys and they did it three times. On the other hand you can't convince me Zenyatta would have ever raced against males without there being a Classic.

I'll sum it up this way. You can add up all the great moments the fall Grade Ones have given us and combined they don't equal what the Breeders Cup has given us.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:40 PM   #55
Cratos
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
Way back when, where did you get your D.I. numbers because there was no internet and I don't recall them being published or sold?

I do recall articles probably on DRF but just never got into it.
You are correct, Roman's numbers were only published during the TC races, but using the methodology you could derived your own numbers.
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Old 06-22-2016, 11:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cratos
You are correct, Roman's numbers were only published during the TC races, but using the methodology you could derived your own numbers.
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That's my question, where and how were they published?

I just remember there were articles with some numbers but not for all of the horses.

Were they sold only from his company?
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:30 AM   #57
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Wasn't it Marge something at Hollywood Park, one of the driving forces of the BC?
John Gaines' (of Gainesway Farm) idea. Marje Everett committed Hollywood Park to it and spent a bunch of money on renovations, and was awarded two of the first four BC's.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by dilanesp
John Gaines' (of Gainesway Farm) idea. Marje Everett committed Hollywood Park to it and spent a bunch of money on renovations, and was awarded two of the first four BC's.

Marje Everett was the one I was remembering. She was a good race track owner with good ideas. Didn't she push for the pick 6 and Friday night racing?
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:58 AM   #59
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look at the bright side breedingwinners.com site is still up and running lol
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Old 06-23-2016, 02:17 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by whodoyoulike
Marje Everett was the one I was remembering. She was a good race track owner with good ideas. Didn't she push for the pick 6 and Friday night racing?
She was a mixed bag. She came from a racetrack family. Her father owned the Chicago tracks for many years and was very well respected. He was one of the pioneers of regular season-long turf racing in the US, had set up the Swaps-Nashua match race, and discovered a couple of announcers held in pretty high esteem here-- Harry Henson and Phil Georgeff. When he ran the Chicago tracks, they were very profitable.

She took over Hollywood Park around 1970 and came with a ton of ideas. Her innovations included the exacta, the Pick Six, attaching a carryover to the Pick Six, various racetrack giveaways such as free tote bags and t-shirts, and Friday Night Racing. She also worked the phones and used her personal connections with owners to get big-time horses out to Hollywood Park-- Riva Ridge, Foolish Pleasure, and Seattle Slew are three examples. (She actually tried very hard to get Secretariat to come here too.) She set up probably the best match race in the history of California racing-- Convenience and Typecast, and also got Chris Evert to come out for a match race after she won what is now called the Triple Tiara (at the time, the Filly Triple Crown) in New York. And she was responsible for bringing Michael Wrona from Australia to America to call races.

As you noted, she was also instrumental in the creation of the Breeders' Cup. Gaines was very set on the idea that the event should usually be held in Southern California because we had warm weather (and thus off tracks were unlikely) and big grandstands at our tracks. Plus, the NYRA people were very skeptical about the thing because they were worried about the disruptions to their fall stakes schedule. (NYRA refused to "winterize" Belmont Park to hold a Breeders' Cup in 1985, which is why the first New York Breeders' Cup was at Aqueduct. Santa Anita wanted to wait and see and agreed to stage the 1986 Breeders' Cup after they saw how successful the 1984 renewal was.) Everett put up a bunch of money personally to renovate Hollywood Park in exchange for two of the first four Breeders' Cups-- they were a huge success for the track and convinced skeptics at other tracks that the event was worth supporting. It's possible that the Breeders' Cup would have had problems getting off the ground without her support.

And for the first 15 years of her tenure, the track drew huge crowds, as it had been drawing before she got here, and was immensely profitable.

However, in the later years of her tenure, racing started to decline. The crowds disappeared (except on Friday nights), she started cycling through various track announcers after firing Harry Henson near the end of his career, she got into disputes with members of the media (which hurt her attempts to do publicity), she got into big disputes with the members of her board of directors, a lot of maintenance was deferred and the track became more dingy, and, most importantly, the track was losing money. Things came to a head in early 1991, when she was ousted in a board dispute. R.D. Hubbard, who had a bunch of investments in quarter horses but no experience running a major thoroughbred track, took over.

And this is where the legacy of Everett was really mixed-- Hubbard improved things a lot AND turned a profit. He renovated the place, cleaned it up, reconfigured the track so that races would all finish in front of the grandstand again, turned the pavilion into a very successful card club, hired Trevor Denman and ended the cycling in and out of track announcers, and eventually did such a good job that the Breeders' Cup came back and held a third Breeders' Cup day there and Churchill bought the track at a huge markup (and proceeded to ruin it and sell it at a fire sale to the real estate developers who eventually closed it).

And all of that indicates that near the end, despite all of her skills, Everett really was doing a lousy job and had to go.
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