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05-24-2016, 10:05 PM
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#31
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
That depends upon the horse. Most thoroughbred racehorses (tbr) have the following extended gallop contact sequence:
RF---fly---LH-RH-LF-RF---fly---
However, about 25% of tbr have the following extended gallop contact sequence:
---fly---LH-RH---mini-fly---LF-RF---fly---
also known as the double air P2, or
---fly---LH-RH-LF---mini-fly---RF---fly---
also known as the double air P3.
About 2% of tbr have the following extended gallop contact sequence:
---fly---LH-RH---mini-fly---LF---mini-fly---RF---fly---
This is known as a triple air tbr. As you can see, it has both P2 and P3. The mini-fly open air suspension period is <.01s, hence it is impossible to directly observe with the naked eye.
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If what you are saying is correct, then the puff of dirt on the inside that looks like it was thrown forward must have been done by Secretariat's left front hoof, which means that he was on his left lead when the photo was taken, right?
And if the above is correct then the distance covered by the airborne horse must be at least the length of that horse, as pictorially demonstrated by the photograph...
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 05-24-2016 at 10:11 PM.
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05-25-2016, 12:39 AM
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#32
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
If what you are saying is correct, then the puff of dirt on the inside that looks like it was thrown forward must have been done by Secretariat's left front hoof, which means that he was on his left lead when the photo was taken, right?
And if the above is correct then the distance covered by the airborne horse must be at least the length of that horse, as pictorially demonstrated by the photograph...
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Traveling at 35 miles per hour, if a horse is airborne for 1\10th of a second he will travel about 5 feet.
If a person can visually notice all four feet off the ground while the horse is in motion then at least 1\10th of a second has elasped.
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 05-25-2016 at 12:47 AM.
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05-25-2016, 10:14 AM
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 441
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The following is offered by way of clarification of my earlier posts and in answer to your excellent questions. The following is a diagram of a single-air stride:
LH
RH
LF
RF
Double-air (P2):
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
Double-air (P3):
LH
RH
LF
RF
Triple-air:
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
............ = ground contact
Total air time is roughly 25% of stride time.
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05-25-2016, 12:07 PM
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#34
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
The following is offered by way of clarification of my earlier posts and in answer to your excellent questions. The following is a diagram of a single-air stride:
LH
RH
LF
RF
Double-air (P2):
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
Double-air (P3):
LH
RH
LF
RF
Triple-air:
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
............ = ground contact
Total air time is roughly 25% of stride time.
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Very interesting.... I love learning new things...thank you.
So the black dots to the right of the red dots on the RF line represent the amount of airborne stride time that occurs before the stride cycle resumes with LH, correct?
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 05-25-2016 at 12:08 PM.
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05-25-2016, 02:54 PM
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 4,252
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
The following is offered by way of clarification of my earlier posts and in answer to your excellent questions. The following is a diagram of a single-air stride:
LH
RH
LF
RF
Double-air (P2):
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
Double-air (P3):
LH
RH
LF
RF
Triple-air:
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
............ = ground contact
Total air time is roughly 25% of stride time.
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I dont disagree with your conclusions, but does not that 25% represent an average horse with a mass (including assigned weight) of about 548 kg in NA which is about 2.23 strides per second or stride time on average is about .45 seconds and air time would be about .11 seconds.
__________________
Independent thinking, emotional stability, and a keen understanding of both human and institutional behavior are vital to long-term investment success My hero, Warren Edward Buffett
"Science is correct; even if you don't believe it" - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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05-25-2016, 07:38 PM
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 4,252
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
Traveling at 35 miles per hour, if a horse is airborne for 1\10th of a second he will travel about 5 feet.
If a person can visually notice all four feet off the ground while the horse is in motion then at least 1\10th of a second has elasped.
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Not a bad guess; using Magistri Ludi"s methodology it calculates to 5.6 feet.
__________________
Independent thinking, emotional stability, and a keen understanding of both human and institutional behavior are vital to long-term investment success My hero, Warren Edward Buffett
"Science is correct; even if you don't believe it" - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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05-25-2016, 08:27 PM
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#37
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
The following is offered by way of clarification of my earlier posts and in answer to your excellent questions. The following is a diagram of a single-air stride:
LH
RH
LF
RF
Double-air (P2):
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
Double-air (P3):
LH
RH
LF
RF
Triple-air:
LH
..
RH
..
LF
..
RF
..
............ = ground contact
Total air time is roughly 25% of stride time.
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I tap the stride out on my thigh. For single air: pinky finger, ring, middle, index and up...
Pinky, ring, middle, index, up...
For double air (P2): pinky, ring, up, middle, index, up...
Pinky, ring, up, middle, index, up...
For triple air (P3): pinky, ring, up, middle, up, index, up...
Pinky, ring, up, middle, up, index, up...
P2 and P3 seem like they would place extra load on the front legs...
I wonder if these uncommon stride types lead to increased rates of breakdown?
Could certain horses learn to run at high speed incorrectly, that leads to their own demise?
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 05-25-2016 at 08:28 PM.
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05-26-2016, 09:14 AM
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cratos
I dont disagree with your conclusions, but does not that 25% represent an average horse with a mass (including assigned weight) of about 548 kg in NA which is about 2.23 strides per second or stride time on average is about .45 seconds and air time would be about .11 seconds.
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This study was conducted in North America with >3000 thoroughbred racehorses (tbr) with professional jockeys at 44-66 ft/s.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
I tap the stride out on my thigh.
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Very clever!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
P2 and P3 seem like they would place extra load on the front legs...
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An astute observation, and one originally shared by the researchers. However, double-air tbr did not have more injuries than single-air. In fact:
career starts ranked from least to most
single-air
double-air P-3
triple-air
As an interesting aside:
career earnings ranked from least to most
double-air P-2
single-air
double-air P-3
triple-air
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05-26-2016, 09:56 AM
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#39
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
This study was conducted in North America with >3000 thoroughbred racehorses (tbr) with professional jockeys at 44-66 ft/s.
Very clever!
An astute observation, and one originally shared by the researchers. However, double-air tbr did not have more injuries than single-air. In fact:
career starts ranked from least to most
single-air
double-air P-3
triple-air
As an interesting aside:
career earnings ranked from least to most
double-air P-2
single-air
double-air P-3
triple-air
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Does airtime occur in both acceleration and deceleration?
In other words, while a horse is accelerating will at least 1 hoof always be on the ground?
There must be a certain lift off velocity threshold to be achieved for airtime to occur. How long and how far does it take a tbr to reach this minimum threshold?
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 05-26-2016 at 10:03 AM.
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05-26-2016, 12:09 PM
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
Does airtime occur in both acceleration and deceleration?
In other words, while a horse is accelerating will at least 1 hoof always be on the ground?
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Seeing is believing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NPGqr6olrk
See, e.g., #7.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
There must be a certain lift off velocity threshold to be achieved for airtime to occur. How long and how far does it take a tbr to reach this minimum threshold?
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Not very, apparently. This one may be a different story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHCsfX57t2c
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05-26-2016, 12:25 PM
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 441
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Additional info: at a velocity of 53 ft/s, total air time is about .12 s.
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05-26-2016, 04:33 PM
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 4,252
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
This study was conducted in North America with >3000 thoroughbred racehorses (tbr) with professional jockeys at 44-66 ft/s.
Very clever!
An astute observation, and one originally shared by the researchers. However, double-air tbr did not have more injuries than single-air. In fact:
career starts ranked from least to most
single-air
double-air P-3
triple-air
As an interesting aside:
career earnings ranked from least to most
double-air P-2
single-air
double-air P-3
triple-air
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I used a 51 feet/second average and the study you referenced is using a 55 feet/second average; this will change the horses air time from my suggested 5.6 feet to 6.0 feet.
__________________
Independent thinking, emotional stability, and a keen understanding of both human and institutional behavior are vital to long-term investment success My hero, Warren Edward Buffett
"Science is correct; even if you don't believe it" - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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05-26-2016, 04:46 PM
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 4,252
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Magister Ludi
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Thanks for posting two very good videos.
__________________
Independent thinking, emotional stability, and a keen understanding of both human and institutional behavior are vital to long-term investment success My hero, Warren Edward Buffett
"Science is correct; even if you don't believe it" - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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05-26-2016, 04:53 PM
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 4,252
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
Does airtime occur in both acceleration and deceleration?
In other words, while a horse is accelerating will at least 1 hoof always be on the ground?
There must be a certain lift off velocity threshold to be achieved for airtime to occur. How long and how far does it take a tbr to reach this minimum threshold?
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The gravity velocity equation for objects upward/downward can be used to answer your question.
However you will have to make some assumptions about the horses mass and force.
__________________
Independent thinking, emotional stability, and a keen understanding of both human and institutional behavior are vital to long-term investment success My hero, Warren Edward Buffett
"Science is correct; even if you don't believe it" - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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