Sherman wants a purse increase for the Pacific Classic..

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by spiketoo

You're a gem. Gotta love people that use the misnomer of free market along with make as much money as you can in the same sentance . Guess this isn't as bad as a pharma company, but it does reek a tad of greed. Double what you normally pay or we'll go elsewhere because well, we are the best and America is all about who is the best and you must give us more money to have the best set hoof in your plant.

Your take is make as much money as you can no matter who may have to pay the price (and I confess of not knowing who may have to pony up here). It's arrogant and wrong, but that's never stopped anybody. At some juncture it has to be more than just making the most money if this sport and country are to survive.

So if Del Mar makes the business decision to increase the purse the sport and COUNTRY won't survive?

Yes my take is too make as much money as you can. You said no matter who has to pay the price. Just what price are you suggesting must be paid?

Arrogant and Wrong? 5 years ago you could go to a Golden State Warriors game and sit in good seats for $50. Now the same seat is $1000 a copy. What's arrogant and wrong about that?

Since the owners of CC are being greedy. Please map out the schedule for the remainder of his career if you owned him. Where and how often would you run? Would you run at all? Would you run in races with smaller purses so people like you wouldn't think you were being greedy?

There have been 100 threads on this site lamenting the early retirement of our biggest stars. Many saying the money grab of huge stud fees is horribly greedy.

People buy and raise racehorses to make MONEY. Now they have a great one and want to prosper and they're all pieces of shit?

You're a gem.

[chiguy]

They already schedule a give away on PC day which leads to the turnstile spinners. I do believe they would get a bump of 5-7k of casual racing fans if he shows up. Not a great increase in handle but plenty of beers and nachos. However if they get lucky and Beholder is ready to roll the thought of Beholder vs CC would be unreal and worth the extra million. That match up would lead to a much higher handle if you consider pick4, pick 6 and a nation of horse players attracted to that match up. I have to believe that the PC is already on Beholders schedule and adding the million to lock up CC would make it one heck of a day. Also a good dress rehearsal for the 2017 BC.

[spiketoo]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Yes my take is too make as much money as you can. You said no matter who has to pay the price. Just what price are you suggesting must be paid?

Um, $1,000,000.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by spiketoo

Um, $1,000,000.

You know very well that's not you were referring to. Let's change the word price to toll.

Then you won't have to troll.

[SuperPickle]

Vic and SRU,

With the irony of lumping you two together you two couldn't be more wrong.

I could point out that lots of top owners like Stonestreet, Repole, The Mosses and Jim Rome never shock down tracks for purse bumps and appearances fees.

I could also point out the same group of people tried to shake down the same track tow years ago for appearance money just to parade the horse.

But I'll tackle your point. Which is essentially capitalism. It's a free market. Del Mar can take or leave the horse. There's nothing wrong with getting as much money for your product (the horse) when people want your product. Greed is good. Greed is fair.

Only what you're not acknowledging is horse racing especially in SoCal isn't capitalism. Far from it.

There's a reason i post at least once a week that horseman are killing horse racing. BECAUSE HORSEMEN ARE KILLING THE SPORT OF HORSE RACING!

Art Sherman underscores this argument perfectly.

Horse racing is a co-op. You need multiple groups for it to exist. You need horseman (lumped in for this purpose with owners and jockeys,) race track operators, regulatory groups and always last bettors. Out of all these groups the one groups who never plays nice with the others is the horseman. Insurance costs up? We got to raise the takeout or the horseman will walk! Feed costs up? We got to raise the takeout. Hollywood Park closing? Horseman can't afford their own shipping costs. We've got to reach into the takeout and create a fund to pay for their shipping. Welfare on top of welfare.

So when Art Sherman had a barn full of crappy horses and his business was going to fail along with lots of other trainers. We raised the takeout. How many times in California racing did we raise the takeout in the last 20-30 years because if we didn't give Art and his buddies this handout he'd quit? SoCal trainers are the welfare queens of the raise the takeout solution. True or false through takeout I will pay more to ship his horses to race than he will?

So Art's the welfare queen and he hits the lottery and gets a once in lifetime horse. So now what does he want? Well he wants more money. Sure we had an agreement on purse structure and a stakes schedule but like with all horsemen when things are good or bad those things go out the window.

So you two want to give Art another million. Why not? Art always gets what he wants. Lets make the purse $5 million and just fund it with 40% takeout.

And I love how both of you frame it as "Del Mar's money." Like Harper is just going to cut a million off his end. At least admit that you're not naive enough to think the extra million isn't going to come out of the bettors pockets one way or another. At least admit the people on this board will finance giving a million dollars to a horse who's already made $10 million.

So when Art has crappy horses I have to finance his business through raised takeout because Art whines he's not making a living. And when Art has good horses I need to pay additional purse money because he feels he has leverage and the sports NEEDS California Chrome. The bettors always pays. Bettors will finance this sport on horsemen's terms until the day the last track closes.

And you two sit back and call this free market capitalism. I'm pretty sure Adam Smith and David Hume would question whether you two were paying attention in school.

[PaceAdvantage]

Post of the year

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Post of the year

PA, I appreciate that but I'm honestly highly annoyed that the majority of posters on this broad can't see through the B.S. of CC's connections.

So far we've had the post Belmont tirade, the refusal to parade the horse at Del Mar unless they got paid, forcing Dubai on the trainer, then firing the trainer, the failed trip to England with a new trainer and that whole fiasco, Dubai forced again and now a shakedown of Del Mar for the second time for appearance money.

All Jim McIngvale did was fire a trainer and he's Hitler on this board. These guys did that and all the other things and people trip over themselves to defend them.

How much more do these clowns have to do for people to understand these are not likable people who are not good for racing.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

Vic and SRU,

With the irony of lumping you two together you two couldn't be more wrong.

I could point out that lots of top owners like Stonestreet, Repole, The Mosses and Jim Rome never shock down tracks for purse bumps and appearances fees.

I could also point out the same group of people tried to shake down the same track tow years ago for appearance money just to parade the horse.

But I'll tackle your point. Which is essentially capitalism. It's a free market. Del Mar can take or leave the horse. There's nothing wrong with getting as much money for your product (the horse) when people want your product. Greed is good. Greed is fair.

Only what you're not acknowledging is horse racing especially in SoCal isn't capitalism. Far from it.

There's a reason i post at least once a week that horseman are killing horse racing. BECAUSE HORSEMEN ARE KILLING THE SPORT OF HORSE RACING!

Art Sherman underscores this argument perfectly.

Horse racing is a co-op. You need multiple groups for it to exist. You need horseman (lumped in for this purpose with owners and jockeys,) race track operators, regulatory groups and always last bettors. Out of all these groups the one groups who never plays nice with the others is the horseman. Insurance costs up? We got to raise the takeout or the horseman will walk! Feed costs up? We got to raise the takeout. Hollywood Park closing? Horseman can't afford their own shipping costs. We've got to reach into the takeout and create a fund to pay for their shipping. Welfare on top of welfare.

So when Art Sherman had a barn full of crappy horses and his business was going to fail along with lots of other trainers. We raised the takeout. How many times in California racing did we raise the takeout in the last 20-30 years because if we didn't give Art and his buddies this handout he'd quit? SoCal trainers are the welfare queens of the raise the takeout solution. True or false through takeout I will pay more to ship his horses to race than he will?

So Art's the welfare queen and he hits the lottery and gets a once in lifetime horse. So now what does he want? Well he wants more money. Sure we had an agreement on purse structure and a stakes schedule but like with all horsemen when things are good or bad those things go out the window.

So you two want to give Art another million. Why not? Art always gets what he wants. Lets make the purse $5 million and just fund it with 40% takeout.

And I love how both of you frame it as "Del Mar's money." Like Harper is just going to cut a million off his end. At least admit that you're not naive enough to think the extra million isn't going to come out of the bettors pockets one way or another. At least admit the people on this board will finance giving a million dollars to a horse who's already made $10 million.

So when Art has crappy horses I have to finance his business through raised takeout because Art whines he's not making a living. And when Art has good horses I need to pay additional purse money because he feels he has leverage and the sports NEEDS California Chrome. The bettors always pays. Bettors will finance this sport on horsemen's terms until the day the last track closes.

And you two sit back and call this free market capitalism. I'm pretty sure Adam Smith and David Hume would question whether you two were paying attention in school.

Good post (contrary to PA I've had 17 posts in the last HOUR that were better but still. Well done Pickle)

I totally agree that horsemen are not running the game as a CO OP, but who IS running it as a CO OP? Why should DMR make 100 pct of the additional revenue that CC specifically generates?

In a perfect world we would all work in harmony together, if Harper came and said "we are bumping purse to 2 mil IF CC races" nobody would have had a problem with that, why did Art have to say anything?

[senortout]

I truly believe CC a very nice runner. That said, his bloodlines are vaguely but regularly dismissed as quite ordinary. This, and this alone, may be why Chrome even continues to race. Just my opinion, nothing against any of the connections, nothing against an older horse continuing to compete. Just saying. (Whats to have prevented the owners from having already checked his actual fertility?)

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

Vic and SRU,

With the irony of lumping you two together you two couldn't be more wrong.

I could point out that lots of top owners like Stonestreet, Repole, The Mosses and Jim Rome never shock down tracks for purse bumps and appearances fees.

I could also point out the same group of people tried to shake down the same track tow years ago for appearance money just to parade the horse.

But I'll tackle your point. Which is essentially capitalism. It's a free market. Del Mar can take or leave the horse. There's nothing wrong with getting as much money for your product (the horse) when people want your product. Greed is good. Greed is fair.

Only what you're not acknowledging is horse racing especially in SoCal isn't capitalism. Far from it.

There's a reason i post at least once a week that horseman are killing horse racing. BECAUSE HORSEMEN ARE KILLING THE SPORT OF HORSE RACING!

Art Sherman underscores this argument perfectly.

Horse racing is a co-op. You need multiple groups for it to exist. You need horseman (lumped in for this purpose with owners and jockeys,) race track operators, regulatory groups and always last bettors. Out of all these groups the one groups who never plays nice with the others is the horseman. Insurance costs up? We got to raise the takeout or the horseman will walk! Feed costs up? We got to raise the takeout. Hollywood Park closing? Horseman can't afford their own shipping costs. We've got to reach into the takeout and create a fund to pay for their shipping. Welfare on top of welfare.

So when Art Sherman had a barn full of crappy horses and his business was going to fail along with lots of other trainers. We raised the takeout. How many times in California racing did we raise the takeout in the last 20-30 years because if we didn't give Art and his buddies this handout he'd quit? SoCal trainers are the welfare queens of the raise the takeout solution. True or false through takeout I will pay more to ship his horses to race than he will?

So Art's the welfare queen and he hits the lottery and gets a once in lifetime horse. So now what does he want? Well he wants more money. Sure we had an agreement on purse structure and a stakes schedule but like with all horsemen when things are good or bad those things go out the window.

So you two want to give Art another million. Why not? Art always gets what he wants. Lets make the purse $5 million and just fund it with 40% takeout.

And I love how both of you frame it as "Del Mar's money." Like Harper is just going to cut a million off his end. At least admit that you're not naive enough to think the extra million isn't going to come out of the bettors pockets one way or another. At least admit the people on this board will finance giving a million dollars to a horse who's already made $10 million.

So when Art has crappy horses I have to finance his business through raised takeout because Art whines he's not making a living. And when Art has good horses I need to pay additional purse money because he feels he has leverage and the sports NEEDS California Chrome. The bettors always pays. Bettors will finance this sport on horsemen's terms until the day the last track closes.

And you two sit back and call this free market capitalism. I'm pretty sure Adam Smith and David Hume would question whether you two were paying attention in school.

If they double the purse to $2 million and California Chrome wins Art Sherman will make an additional $60,000.

It's his fault that California racing has been left behind by other states. Because he trained average horses for 40 years?

It's his fault California botched the opportunity to stay competitive with slot machines? Lost thousands of horses and hundreds of owners to other jurisdictions? Raised takeout to mitigate those mistakes while not raising purses?

While he fed his family and provided jobs for his sons while persevering though lean year after lean year. And the current state of racing is his fault?

I understand your frustration. As a lover of racing and a bettor it must be difficult to stay the course.

But to suggest the owners and trainers are responsible for horse racing's demise is ridiculous.

[SuperPickle]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

If they double the purse to $2 million and California Chrome wins Art Sherman will make an additional $60,000.

It's his fault that California racing has been left behind by other states. Because he trained average horses for 40 years?

It's his fault California botched the opportunity to stay competitive with slot machines? Lost thousands of horses and hundreds of owners to other jurisdictions? Raised takeout to mitigate those mistakes while not raising purses?

While he fed his family and provided jobs for his sons while persevering though lean year after lean year. And the current state of racing is his fault?

I understand your frustration. As a lover of racing and a bettor it must be difficult to stay the course.

But to suggest the owners and trainers are responsible for horse racing's demise is ridiculous.

What I'm suggesting is in the co-op which is racing horsemen are the ones you whine the loudest and fight innovation the hardest. They are the ones who always quickly threaten to take their ball and go home. In the last two weeks we've Art threaten us with not running his horse. We've had Dale Roman threaten to quit and move to Hong Kong unless we helped him win more races or whatever his compliant was.

These guys are terrorists. When they don't get there way its screw the sport because I only care about what's best for me at this moment.

Why is the takeout high in California? The horseman. Ask the horsemen to lower takeout to try and grow the game to compete with other games of skill. Non-starter. What happened to exchange wagering in California? The second the horsemen found out Betfair wouldn't give them the cut they wanted it died overnight. The guy at Colonial Downs went back and forth with the horsemen for a year and final just got tired of it shut the track so racing dies in a huge state.

Vic I've been involved in the sport too long to buy into this argument Art and his buddies are just innocent victims who have been hijacked by a changing world. They've blocked every attempt to bring this game into the 21st century because at the end of the day no horsemen group will give a dime away today regardless if it means a dollar in 5-10 years.

So I'm over financing Art Sherman and his buddies through more takeout. Make the economics work or do something else for a living. If a million isn't enough for him to put the horse in the gate he can stay in the barn because i'm not paying.

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

Good post (contrary to PA I've had 17 posts in the last HOUR that were better but still. Well done Pickle) ...

Only 17 in the last hour???

Good one! So, you are keeping track!!

[Redboard]

If DMTC wants to bump up the purse of the Pacific Classic to attract CC, good for them. The last running of the Pacific Classic was a disappointment as far as attendance and handle goes, even with Beholder. If they don’t, fine(I personally wouldn’t). If NYRA wants to bump of the purse of the Whitney or Woodward to attract him, that’s good too. If they don’t, that’s fine by me but again, I wouldn’t do it, and I don’t think NYRA would either. I can’t think of another track that has the resources to be in the game. I’m not sure what "other tracks that want CC" Sherman has in mind.

[cj]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

While he fed his family and provided jobs for his sons while persevering though lean year after lean year. And the current state of racing is his fault?

I understand your frustration. As a lover of racing and a bettor it must be difficult to stay the course.

Lean years for Art Sherman? ROFLMAO.

http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Res...ype=T&eID=1710

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

What I'm suggesting is in the co-op which is racing horsemen are the ones you whine the loudest and fight innovation the hardest. They are the ones who always quickly threaten to take their ball and go home. In the last two weeks we've Art threaten us with not running his horse. We've had Dale Roman threaten to quit and move to Hong Kong unless we helped him win more races or whatever his compliant was.

These guys are terrorists. When they don't get there way its screw the sport because I only care about what's best for me at this moment.

Why is the takeout high in California? The horseman. Ask the horsemen to lower takeout to try and grow the game to compete with other games of skill. Non-starter. What happened to exchange wagering in California? The second the horsemen found out Betfair wouldn't give them the cut they wanted it died overnight. The guy at Colonial Downs went back and forth with the horsemen for a year and final just got tired of it shut the track so racing dies in a huge state.

Vic I've been involved in the sport too long to buy into this argument Art and his buddies are just innocent victims who have been hijacked by a changing world. They've blocked every attempt to bring this game into the 21st century because at the end of the day no horsemen group will give a dime away today regardless if it means a dollar in 5-10 years.

So I'm over financing Art Sherman and his buddies through more takeout. Make the economics work or do something else for a living. If a million isn't enough for him to put the horse in the gate he can stay in the barn because i'm not paying.

I've been able to tell you're part of our industry for a long time.

Your contributions are heartfelt. Your love for our game evident.

On this issue I'm 100% in disagreement with you. I think we should covet the horsemen. Do everything we can to help them stay aloft in these shark infested waters.

We have many people on these pages who work in the business and contribute.

Very few though to say who they actually are.

I respect your right to anonymity. I'd respect you even more if you owned your takes with your real name.

Thanks for caring about our sport. I agree with many of your takes. On this though I think you're completely off base.

VJS