Here is what the president of the PTHA thinks of bettors

[Tom]

Everyone involved thinks customers cannot stay away . For a day? OK. For two days ? OK. For a week ? No way !

And they are betting on that.

When did the boycott of SA and GP start?
I'm still staying away.

But Paex is unique.
Parx sux.
Morons can't evan spell!

I've been there before - it will make a nice Walmart when they lose thier welfare from slots and have to close.

Personally I welcome the day the plug gets pulled and half the GD tracks in the country go under, because they are not good enough to justify opening their doors.

[barahona44]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

How about I e-mail him and mail him 40000 letters explaining how I don't play PARX because their takeout sucks?

Maybe I'll paste his words in the letter and send it to the local newspapers?

All signed by 40,000 different people?

I figure, I can do 100 a day, give me 400 days

I don't think the Philadelphia papers cover Parx anymore.I was in the Philly airport last summer, had the Inquirer and all they had for Parx was a race results summary and a 'entries today' tucked in with the sports scores; no analysis, predictions or handicapping.

[DeanT]

I dont know what the solution is, but what they've done with their massive slot money at Parx sure hasn't worked.

[barahona44]

Originally Posted by The Judge

I haven't noticed any new tracks opening, I wonder why. There are less races being run on fewer days and fewer bettors are showing up at the track, yet the bettor doesn't know or care about the takeout. Unbelievable of course this has been the attitude all along. We are seen as no more then degenerate gamblers picking numbers and color of horses to place our bets.

Diners paying for the menu. Tracks are closing this must mean something.

Racing is in decline is because people have dozens of options for their gambling dollar that didn't exist outside Nevada and the tracks 40 and more years ago.Starting with the blossoming of lotteries in the 70's, Atlantic City in the 80's, the explosion of casinos in the 90's and last but not least Internet betting and gambling.

Adjusted for inflation, horse racing hit its handle peak in 1964.That was 52 years ago.It's more than just increased takeout.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Ruffian1

They , and let's not call this horsemen without citing management and therefore ownership as well, unless of course it makes you feel better, have known since day one that realize it or not, customers won't stand together and do a damn thing about it except bitch. Between races that is.

I see nothing funny about that.

I don't disagree, their treatment of customers is right in line with what you say, however, wouldn't they make more money if they treated customers with some respect? It wouldn't cost them a thing and they would create good will, which would turn into dollars. They don't even have to give one penny back in kickbacks, not one discount on food or drink at the track, nothing except a thank you and some appreciative words. Tom Durkin gets it, unfortunately, not many others do.

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[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I don't disagree, their treatment of customers is right in line with what you say, however, wouldn't they make more money if they treated customers with some respect? It wouldn't cost them a thing and they would create good will, which would turn into dollars. They don't even have to give one penny back in kickbacks, not one discount on food or drink at the track, nothing except a thank you and some appreciative words. Tom Durkin gets it, unfortunately, not many others do.

[YT=""]ZD-bdbPPCuQ[/YT]

Yes, they would make much more money if they did as you suggest. As I said many times, I am on the customers side this time and just about every time. I was a customer before I was ever a backstretch employee or horseman.

I just wish you customers could see your way clear to unite . You have all the power if everyone would band together. Just doesn't seem like it will ever happen though.

And to Tom's point about Parx being a crummy track.

It was a dump on opening day when it was Keystone and remains a dump today. Always hated that place.

I totally agree Tom.

[classhandicapper]

Maybe this has already be done, but they should do a survey of some kind to determine sensitivity to track takeout and break it out by annual handle.

For example, when NYCOTB was around, I bet if you surveyed those customers, most would probably not understand the track takeout and associated issues. So if you hit them with an extra couple percent, they wouldn't know or care. In terms of number of customers, that's a LOT of people.

If you did the same thing among people that bet 100k a year more more, a lot more of them would understand the issue and be be very track take sensitive.

If you then added up the handle of both groups, you'd get a different impression of the customers than you would by their sheer numbers.

Impressions may be coming from the "typical" horse player in terms of numbers and not in terms of their handle.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Maybe this has already be done, but they should do a survey of some kind to determine sensitivity to track takeout and break it out by annual handle.

For example, when NYCOTB was around, I bet if you surveyed those customers, most would probably not understand the track takeout and associated issues. So if you hit them with an extra couple percent, they wouldn't know or care. In terms of number of customers, that's a LOT of people.

If you did the same thing among people that bet 100k a year more more, a lot more of them would understand the issue and be be very track take sensitive.

If you then added up the handle of both groups, you'd get a different impression of the customers than you would by their sheer numbers.

Impressions may be coming from the "typical" horse player in terms of numbers and not in terms of their handle.

The DRF did a survey on the major issues horseplayers have. Number one among small and non-players was drugs. Number one among larger bettors was take, with drugs far down on the list. Real players know what the hurts their bottom line the most.

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Maybe this has already be done, but they should do a survey of some kind to determine sensitivity to track takeout and break it out by annual handle.

For example, when NYCOTB was around, I bet if you surveyed those customers, most would probably not understand the track takeout and associated issues. So if you hit them with an extra couple percent, they wouldn't know or care. In terms of number of customers, that's a LOT of people.

If you did the same thing among people that bet 100k a year more more, a lot more of them would understand the issue and be be very track take sensitive.

If you then added up the handle of both groups, you'd get a different impression of the customers than you would by their sheer numbers.

Impressions may be coming from the "typical" horse player in terms of numbers and not in terms of their handle.

The thing is, even if you don't what takeout is or care, you feel the effect.

[Tom]

The OTB crowd knew takeout under it's alias: Crappy Odds.
I would say that affects the small player far more seriously than a higher roller.
If you go to the track on Saturday with $20-$40, the difference between a 9-5 shot and 5-2 shot might be your whole day.

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by cj

Maybe he is right. People here would rather talk about announcers!

Not true, If anyone reads my bitching, its always something related to this sort of thing. The product, the insensitive acting's of management and some of the horseman. Frankly, I follow my own horses and view the race myself. I could give a crap about the announcer even though I think NY gets the best ones usually. I can't hear good anyway.

And.....I don't play the second rate tracks like this, never have, never will. Its hard enough trusting the "A" tracks....logic dictates the "cheating" and "Shenanigans'" are way worse at joints like this. I go to Finger Lakes once in a blue moon and bet the simulcast and maybe 2 live races tops.

Its one thing to play these tracks....to each their own. The thing that gets me are the people I call "cheer leaders" and "shills". They are a problem and they are brain washed. They will put you down for complaining and, even worse, jump up and down telling everyone "its great".....even after they read something like this. People like that, are why people like this have jobs. They get away with things like this with people still "sucking up", then people sit there and wonder why the attitude towards us is that we are stupid. Secretly, they think to themselves: "these folks will eat shit and come back begging for more."

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by cj

The thing is, even if you don't what takeout is or care, you feel the effect.

Absolutely.

To get change, you need more people to complain to get the message across. But unfortunately, even if those "OTB type" players are feeling the effect, they don't seem to know it and apparently neither do many in the industry (or they don't think it matters).

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Absolutely.

To get change, you need more people to complain to get the message across. But unfortunately, even if those "OTB type" players are feeling the effect, they don't seem to know it and apparently neither do many in the industry (or they don't think it matters).

I understand this thought, but in what industry do people complain about something like price of the product as customers and force change that way?

If a restaurant, or a car maker, or anything, really, is not serving a good product at a good price, consumers walk away and they lose market share, or go out of business. So, if they want to grow, or stay in business, they have to improve. There isn't a customer committee who complains, they just stop spending money.

Haven't customers been telling racing this for years with their dollars?

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by DeanT

I understand this thought, but in what industry do people complain about something like price of the product as customers and force change that way?

If a restaurant, or a car maker, or anything, really, is not serving a good product at a good price, consumers walk away and they lose market share, or go out of business. So, if they want to grow, or stay in business, they have to improve. There isn't a customer committee who complains, they just stop spending money.

Haven't customers been telling racing this for years with their dollars?

Interesting how the big dropoffs seem to fall right in line with the plastic track mandate in calif. or, maybe it's not interesting, what do I know.

[ultracapper]

Also an economic downturn at that time. Most industries have bounced back from the '06-'08 economic crash. Horse racing betting just dropped and then flat lined, creating a new base line 25% below the pre downturn base line. Another economic crash and handle will drop to 5M a year.