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Old 01-07-2016, 06:16 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Yeah, it can be a find, but most of the time figure guys like me or Beyer or whoever know something is fishy and it is built into the figure anyway, so the value isn't as much as people pretend. It just gets super annoying.
I am sure your figures ARE superior CJ, but over the years I have found many that slipped through the cracks from other providers. One situation has been profitable: when a timing/fat finger mistake happens in maiden races.I have found 2 of these before subsequent races and at least 5 postmortem.
Sometimes other people(speed figure guys and insiders) KNOW that the Number posted is incorrect and they bet the horse hard. Usually nonmaiden races have horses with other good or adequate races to judge a horse by. At the bigger tracks these errors are caught. At the smaller tracks not so much.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:24 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by cj
The racetracks that employ Trakus do not want them to give out this data. I have no idea why this is the case. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if somebody with access to it isn't using the data for profit.
That is quite a statement CJ!!! I wouldn't be surprised either. My already cynical view of racing is approaching paranoia/derangement. Between Frog Juice, crooked officials, drug happy trainers, and whales ....
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:27 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by maddog42
That is quite a statement CJ!!! I wouldn't be surprised either. My already cynical view of racing is approaching paranoia/derangement. Between Frog Juice, crooked officials, drug happy trainers, and whales ....
I'm not saying it is a conspiracy or anything like that, but if I had access to data nobody else had I'd sure as hell use it to full advantage.
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Old 01-07-2016, 09:30 PM   #64
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I an think of no other reason why the REAL data is being withheld.
No one will convince me some people are using it and the tracks support it.
I am under no delusion that tracks give a crap about their paying customers.
No tracks, period.

I suggest everyone send 5 emails a day to NYRA and ask for a legitimate reason. Flood their mailboxes with honest requests for the truth.

Bet no one gets a satisfactory reply.

Maybe not NYRA......they don't ride horses the first half mile there.
Try Santa Anita instead. Early timing might be a value where you have real jockeys!
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Old 01-08-2016, 07:57 PM   #65
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Hopefully you read this before both are deleted, EMD.

You missed a critical aspect of PA's post. It had to do with how you word what you say. That's all. I don't think PA cares in the least if you bring attention to what you perceive as shenanigans or whatever, hell, he likes even bigger conspiracies than what you've suggested. Just meet him halfway in how you phrase certain things. You've taken it on the chin many times, this is something you can handle.
As usual, John Hannibal is dead right. EMD4ME is obviously the queen of drama queens on here. I have no desire to delete or ban anyone at the moment.

Just wish they would SHOW ME a little respect by honoring the FEW RULES I have on here...rules I've REPEATEDLY ASKED NICELY to be followed WELL BEFORE I GO LOCKING THREADS and asking moderators to start deleting.

But *I'M* the bad guy...screw you EMD4ME....and I mean that with all peace and love.

And don't expect to be banned...I'm not in the habit of banning for no reason, Mr. Drama Queen

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Old 01-09-2016, 05:22 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog42
That is quite a statement CJ!!! I wouldn't be surprised either. My already cynical view of racing is approaching paranoia/derangement. Between Frog Juice, crooked officials, drug happy trainers, and whales ....
You need not be cynical and nothing is being hidden from the bettors by the racetracks or any of the data providers.

With some reasonable assumptions, you could set a time equation to solve the time for the run-up distance for any race whether it is dirt, poly, or turf.
In any horserace you have the “coefficient of friction” which is the force resisting the horse’s motion between the track’s surface and the horse’s normal or perpendicular force.

From the starting line to the finishing line you need to use the horse’s kinetic force and from the gate to the starting line you will need to use the horse’s static force.

The historical track records for the race distances at the racetracks are based on a “running start”. The time from the gate to the starting line is a “standing start” and attempting to add them linearly is apples and oranges; they are both starts, but the force in the following time equation is very different:

Time Equation

T=sq rt of 2d/a


Where d = distance (use Trakus distance for the race distance) and (Equibase distance from the run-up distance)

a = acceleration and is different for the race distance than for the run-up distance.

However it should be noted that the horse’s distance travelled during the run-up distance is assumed to be straight up to the starting line, but this is not true because the jockeys will typically maneuver their horses toward the rail.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:26 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cratos
You need not be cynical and nothing is being hidden from the bettors by the racetracks or any of the data providers.

With some reasonable assumptions, you could set a time equation to solve the time for the run-up distance for any race whether it is dirt, poly, or turf.
In any horserace you have the “coefficient of friction” which is the force resisting the horse’s motion between the track’s surface and the horse’s normal or perpendicular force.

From the starting line to the finishing line you need to use the horse’s kinetic force and from the gate to the starting line you will need to use the horse’s static force.

The historical track records for the race distances at the racetracks are based on a “running start”. The time from the gate to the starting line is a “standing start” and attempting to add them linearly is apples and oranges; they are both starts, but the force in the following time equation is very different:

Time Equation

T=sq rt of 2d/a


Where d = distance (use Trakus distance for the race distance) and (Equibase distance from the run-up distance)

a = acceleration and is different for the race distance than for the run-up distance.

However it should be noted that the horse’s distance travelled during the run-up distance is assumed to be straight up to the starting line, but this is not true because the jockeys will typically maneuver their horses toward the rail.
Of course it is being kept from bettors. It is available and not given. Tracks do publish run up distances, but they are not very accurate in many cases. They don't publish times at all.

Sure, both can be estimated, but the actual information is always better. Call me silly I guess, but that is what I'd prefer.

Last edited by cj; 01-09-2016 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by cj
Of course it is being kept from bettors. It is available and not given. Tracks do publish run up distances, but they are not very accurate in many cases. They don't publish times at all.

Sure, both can be estimated, but the actual information is always better. Call me silly I guess, but that is what I'd prefer.
Let me understand this, the DRF and its predecessor Equibase never published (and still don't) actual race distance run by each horse in the race; yet there is something called a "speedfigure" being determined and it is widely popular throughout the horseracing handicapping community.

To the best of my knowledge speed is the ratio between time and distance and without actual distance you do not have actually speed.

To further complicate matters, Equibase/DRF is giving race time results based on linear measurements.

Therefore from Equibase/DRF where is the actual distance information that is always better?
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cratos
Let me understand this, the DRF and its predecessor Equibase never published (and still don't) actual race distance run by each horse in the race; yet there is something called a "speedfigure" being determined and it is widely popular throughout the horseracing handicapping community.

To the best of my knowledge speed is the ratio between time and distance and without actual distance you do not have actually speed.

To further complicate matters, Equibase/DRF is giving race time results based on linear measurements.

Therefore from Equibase/DRF where is the actual distance information that is always better?
I tried, read it a few times, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

All I'm saying is that Trakus is measuring the time and the distance of the run up portion of the race. It is available, but it is not given to the public. Since the tracks hire Trakus, why are they keeping this information private? Why shouldn't I believe some with access are exploiting it for personal gain? I think it is VERY valuable info to have.
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:09 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by cj
I tried, read it a few times, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

All I'm saying is that Trakus is measuring the time and the distance of the run up portion of the race. It is available, but it is not given to the public. Since the tracks hire Trakus, why are they keeping this information private? Why shouldn't I believe some with access are exploiting it for personal gain? I think it is VERY valuable info to have.
Sorry that you don't understand; I have done my best to explain.
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:12 PM   #71
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Sorry that you don't understand; I have done my best to explain.
I'll try my secret decoder ring later, I'm busy betting actual races.
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:21 PM   #72
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:44 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by cj
I'll try my secret decoder ring later, I'm busy betting actual races.
Your cynicism is beyond comprehension, but that is expected from you when math and science equations are involved
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:46 PM   #74
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Your cynicism is beyond comprehension, but that is expected from you when math and science equations are involved
Way to try to deflect from the point at hand. For the record, I don't blame your beloved Trakus at all, it is the racetracks that don't let them publish the information.

Whatever dude, have a nice day.
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Old 01-16-2016, 12:17 AM   #75
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Sam Houston R7 tonight (Jan 15), it was a 7f race but they set the timing for a 6f race.
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