OVER AND UNDER ODDS OF AP IN TRAVERS

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Don't you think someone might want a race over the Keeneland track as a prep?

PS: What of the times the BC is held at Churchill? There's no Classic prep there either. Nor is there one at Monmouth or Gulfstream or many other tracks. The only ones who really have big Classic preps are Santa Anita and Belmont due to their racing calendar and race histories providing them with such with the way the BC falls on the calendar.

The big preps that Keeneland has always offered are the Spinster (Distaff),
Shadwell Turf Mile (Mile), and Alcibiades (Juv Fillies). They also have the Breeders' Futurity (Juv) and First Lady (F&M turf).

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

They've never had a Classic prep. They can't just create one now. It takes years to get graded status, and no contender is going to bypass the JCGC and other prestigious races for an ungraded race, and if the top horses don't run there, then they can't get graded status.

That's silly. It's not about graded status. If you put up $400,000 or so, people will run because it is a race over the track. Numerous BC winners have won the classic after a race over the track, including St. Liam, Pleasantly Perfect, Mucho Macho Man, and Cigar.

(As for your other point, Gulfstream and Monmouth are different-- you can't do this if you have no fall meeting outside of the BC. But Keeneland does. They are idiots not to card a classic prep.)

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

That's silly. It's not about graded status. If you put up $400,000 or so, people will run because it is a race over the track. Numerous BC winners have won the classic after a race over the track, including St. Liam, Pleasantly Perfect, Mucho Macho Man, and Cigar.

(As for your other point, Gulfstream and Monmouth are different-- you can't do this if you have no fall meeting outside of the BC. But Keeneland does. They are idiots not to card a classic prep.)

If you say so. If I have a top horse, I'm not bypassing a prestigious G1 to run in an ungraded stakes at KEE. No way, no how. Now I guess they can card one in hopes that 10 years down the road they'll get enough decent horses to run in it to start up the graded scale but it's not going to help them this year.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

If you say so. If I have a top horse, I'm not bypassing a prestigious G1 to run in an ungraded stakes at KEE. No way, no how. Now I guess they can card one in hopes that 10 years down the road they'll get enough decent horses to run in it to start up the graded scale but it's not going to help them this year.

One big thing you need to realize is nothing is prestigious anymore.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup isn't prestigious anymore. The Awesome Again (nee Goodwood) never was prestigious. Bayern prepped last year in the Pennsylvania Derby. Think that's prestigious?

There's the Breeders' Cup and the Triple Crown. Nothing else is prestigious. Anything that will help a horse win a BC race will be welcomed by trainers.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

One big thing you need to realize is nothing is prestigious anymore.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup isn't prestigious anymore. The Awesome Again (nee Goodwood) never was prestigious. Bayern prepped last year in the Pennsylvania Derby. Think that's prestigious?

There's the Breeders' Cup and the Triple Crown. Nothing else is prestigious. Anything that will help a horse win a BC race will be welcomed by trainers.

You're wrong. Those races are prestigious and adding those G1s to their resumes are worth millions of dollars in stallion value in many cases. An ungraded stakes is worth zero in stallion value.

Maybe you have some wild idea that prepping over the same surface as the upcoming BC means the world to most trainers and owners, but the fact is that it doesn't mean even Pluto to most.

I've never heard a single complaint about there being no BC preps at Churchill. I've never heard for that matter a single complaint about there being no KY Derby prep at Churchill. You might consider that you think it far more important than others.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You're wrong. Those races are prestigious and adding those G1s to their resumes are worth millions of dollars in stallion value in many cases. An ungraded stakes is worth zero in stallion value.

Maybe you have some wild idea that prepping over the same surface as the upcoming BC means the world to most trainers and owners, but the fact is that it doesn't mean even Pluto to most.

I've never heard a single complaint about there being no BC preps at Churchill. I've never heard for that matter a single complaint about there being no KY Derby prep at Churchill. You might consider that you think it far more important than others.

Breeders aren't stupid. Winning a graded prep race over a bad field is worth very little. A well bred horse will have a good stud fee with even modest success. Poorly bred horses never start out with high stud fees even with graded wins.

Graded wins may look good in advertising; but they don't have the talismanic effect on stud fees you think they do.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

PS: What of the times the BC is held at Churchill? There's no Classic prep there either. Nor is there one at Monmouth or Gulfstream or many other tracks. The only ones who really have big Classic preps are Santa Anita and Belmont due to their racing calendar and race histories providing them with such with the way the BC falls on the calendar.

The big preps that Keeneland has always offered are the Spinster (Distaff),
Shadwell Turf Mile (Mile), and Alcibiades (Juv Fillies). They also have the Breeders' Futurity (Juv) and First Lady (F&M turf).

AP needs an easy race before the BC more than he needs a hard effort w graded status.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Breeders aren't stupid. Winning a graded prep race over a bad field is worth very little. A well bred horse will have a good stud fee with even modest success. Poorly bred horses never start out with high stud fees even with graded wins.

Graded wins may look good in advertising; but they don't have the talismanic effect on stud fees you think they do.

It definitely ups the stud fee and what a farm will pay for your horse, and the JCGC won't be a bad field.

But back to the subject which is that you said repeatedly that KEE is "stupid" to not have a prep for the Classic. Note how you're the only one calling for this prep. Not a single trainer or owner has done so. The experts don't think it's an issue or that KEE is "stupid."