131 TimeformUS for American Pharoah

[cj]

Originally Posted by Grits

Now the picture's complete with the internal #s.

... As for EMD? If he's a wise man, he'll eat crow with a great deal of grace. Like I'm doing, following our testy discussion a month or so ago. Granted, I'm following your lead, (if you don't fly stupid with "I told you so".) He's incredible!! Still, he's got to win 'em all before he retires. Too, "we (as you said in the beginning) shouldn't compare across eras"--I remember your saying this, so be careful throwing up photos of he and Red.

What I really liked yesterday? Elsie's, on the money, observation:

"If he had a tail he'd be wagging it!"

I really don't know what that photo means, just thought it was neat to see.

I don't compare times across eras, but nothing wrong with comparing accomplishments. I think that is one way to judge, the other being dominance over contemporaries.

[cj]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Surprised EMD thought of the Haskell like that. I truly expected him to come here and say easy race against a bunch of tomato cans..."just like I predicted."

What was so awesome about the Haskell? Compared to say...the Belmont Stakes, with all the pressure for the Triple Crown (his connections more so than the horse obviously), AND the 1 1/2 mile distance...the fast final Belmont time...the quick and steady internal fractions...

Yeah, he had the lead and had it his own way in the Belmont...

But how was everything pretty much NOT his own way in the Haskell? Except he didn't have the lead...but he's NOT a need-to-lead type anyway?

It was a cakewalk in the Haskell...a much less WOW of a performance than the Belmont, where AT LEAST he had to go a distance that probably was not exactly his best...

Curious to know what the Beyer was...I haven't read all the other threads on the board yet so maybe someone posted elsewhere...

I think watching the other jockeys trying to pressure American Pharoah tells the real story of the Haskell. Horses were being asked early and often to take it to him. One by one each fell by the wayside as Espinoza just sat chilly. Nothing phased him---the fast times, the other horses, being between horses, etc. It was a huge effort in my opinion. I realize Mr. Jordan isn't a top level horse, but he was won five of six and is no slouch. He couldn't make it half way down the backstretch before retreating.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know...I expected exactly what I saw unfold in the Haskell pace-wise (using your figures)...so I guess that's maybe why I'm not so bowled over by it...

I was much more impressed with his Belmont...

[cj]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I don't know...I expected exactly what I saw unfold in the Haskell pace-wise (using your figures)...so I guess that's maybe why I'm not so bowled over by it...

I was much more impressed with his Belmont...

I understand, I just can't remember seeing a horse going that fast early without being asked at all...and then he just kept going.

[PaceAdvantage]

He never had to work in the Haskell at all...at least the 1.5 miles was something to overcome in the Belmont.

He's not a need-to-lead, so sitting off Competitive Edge the whole way and waltzing home isn't exactly overcoming a lot...

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by cj

Thanks for the reply. I know you never said you hated him or anything like that.

I guess this is a reply to your post CJ and PA's prior post (about what he expected me to say after the Haskell).

I always speak the truth, at least my truth (LOL) and I really have zero ego in this game. I do really try to work like spock when I handicap and not bet with heart.

In looking back at his races, I do stand by what i said and here's why.

When a great horse gets the lead and crawls for 85% of the race and then sprints home, his AWESOMENESS can be lost in a trip like that because the horse isn't put to the test. (Oaklawn Handicap, Belmont Stakes).

All of us here have seen many average horses look fantastic in that scenario (loose and comfortable for 85% of the trip and sprint home).

The Preakness again was a race where you can't say with true affirmity that it was awesome as Mr.Z (Mr. No one really) breathed on him for 1/4 mile and floundered, Tale of Verve is a pig and the variant was unknown due to the hurricane. NO KNOCK on AP for that. Just saying that circumstances kind of prevented this excellent horse from being put up against the mettle and in turn him having the chance to come out looking amazing (Like Secretariat did in his Belmont being pushed by Sham early).

The Haskell was a bit different to me as:

1) Edge took the lead and AP had Jordan to his outside kind of annoying him. Not an easy pace scenario. Not terribly hard but not easy.
2) He jogged by Edge (better than he did VS. Firing Line and his emate in the Derby, which had a slow ending while AP was all out)
3) He was geared down from the 3/16's. Not the 1/16 pole, the 3/16's. That was awesome!

Finally. For the record, I hate stubborn people, so I take pride in NOT being stubborn.

Of course I'll give credit where credit is due. To not do that would only make me an ASS, no one else.

[cj]

I hear ya, I kept trying to beat Zenyatta and even when she lost I didn't get the winner.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by cj

I hear ya, I kept trying to beat Zenyatta and even when she lost I didn't get the winner.

I don't really play Cali racing much, kept hearing about her and watched without betting. God I hated that Poly crap. Not to red board but I was a huge Blame fan all year and thankfully I was on Blame.

I won't lie and I'll say it right now. If AP gets to the Classic, I might just be on Tonalist or Honor Code in an Exacta Box with AP heavily cold. More than likely Tonalist if there is a full field of speeds, stalkers and Honor Code is in their as well.

However, without looking at the possible entries, I don't see AP losing the Classic for 1 important reason. There won't be any other Baffert entries in the BCC. So, we have Shared Belief out, C Chrome out, Wise Dan out, all Baffert possibilities out. There might just be a short field in the BCC. That is depressing me right now. Might be a cold AP Tonalist one way punch.

[cj]

I put this on Twitter...

Full @TimeformUS Speed Figure for AP was 131.25. A beaten length is worth 1.31 at 9f on dirt--leaving speculation of "coulda ran" to others.

[Grits]

Mr.Jordan did well to go in a straight line and back up as opposed to going sideways, jeopardizing other horses. I'm sorry, he was nothing.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Grits

Mr.Jordan did well to go in a straight line and back up as opposed to going sideways, jeopardizing other horses. I'm sorry, he was nothing.

Grits are you demeaning his win yesterday because Mr. Jordan was nothing? Or you saying the opposite, that AP burnt him to toast?

Not being sarcastic, just trying to see your point.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Grits are you demeaning his win yesterday because Mr. Jordan was nothing? Or you saying the opposite, that AP burnt him to toast?

Not being sarcastic, just trying to see your point.

Goodness no. Not demeaning in any way. Mr.Jordan folded early. Too, they showed on tape his severe bolting problems. Unbelievable. It made me wish, prior to the start ... that he wasn't in the race.

[TravisVOX]

I was on Twitter this AM applauding how his rivals actually raced him yesterday and by doing so it allows us to appreciate good performances more while also satisfying horse player curiosity.

Not that what I think matters for much, but I was far more satisfied/impressed by what he did yesterday than his cupcake lead in the Belmont Stakes. And to think, he smacked those horses around yesterday AFTER having won the Triple Crown.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by cj

American Pharoah 131
Keen Ice 125
Upstart 124

I'm curious what EMD4ME thinks of him now. That isn't to bust balls, I respect his opinion. But the horse was in traffic through hot fractions and won with disdainful ease. I'm not sure what else he could do.

The horse can only beat the competition that they place around him, so, I can't harp too much about the quality of the field that American Pharoah demolished yesterday. The older horse division is in shambles this year...and we all know that. The 131 speed figure surprises me though...and I wonder where Keen Ice's 125 rates among the speed figures registered this year.

[rastajenk]

Right now, Daily Racing Form shows a 109 Beyer.

I like Travis' comments, but I think there are some who still won't be satisfied 'til he beats older going a mile on the turf spotting the others 10-20 pounds.

You know you're Out There!