Rank The 12 Triple Crown Winners

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Almost, not quite. She had just won the Derby and Belmont with Riva Ridge. Things were not as bleak as portrayed in the movie.

yeah they were.

[ILovetheInner]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Don't confuse whipping with asking a house to run. Secretariat was all out in the Belmont, for instance.

I don't. Of course he was asked to run, which is when he engulfed fields as if they were on a canter.

I happen to agree with you that had he run at four, there would have been more losses, but I am a Forego person at heart, so of course I would think that. I can only imagine on their days each would have beaten the other, for Forego was such a battler. Very sorry we didn't have a chance to see that.

Part of me can agree with you that his post TC campaign was a bit of a let down in that it was "safe." I say this particularly for feeling losing two of four dirt starts was more the incentive for the surface switch than wanting to introduce racing audiences to turf. Then again, he raced double the starts through September that Affirmed (or Bid) did, let alone Slew.

I have to thank Steve Crist for putting things in context with his book, "The Horse Traders." I had more personal funk before I read things from his perspective. Rather than focusing on Tweedy, he put focus on Seth Hancock taking over Claiborne and that with the syndication he was risking the confidence of some of racing's most powerful players. People were going to take a deep breath and have confidence in him, or they were not. But he needed to have been right. For Ogden Phipps to refuse him must have been jarring. A farm's stallion's are only as powerful as the mares they are receiving, and a lot was risked if the conclusion was that Seth was going to run the farm into the ground.

Jerkens said Secretariat looked dull coming into the Whitney. I have not a clue why he would say that if it were not true. So they ran him despite this, and paid the price. The Prove Out race I think was his only "true" loss. Save for the slop and perhaps that not being ideal for him (only a guess), it was Secretariat on his day and getting beaten. Secretariat beat Cougar by eleven lengths that day. It made him look mortal after all, but not by much. Prove Out freaked that day.

[nads1420]

Originally Posted by Grits

What's redic? You being fitted with a new one?

You weren't alive. Many here, were. Granted some were in 2nd grade, 5th grade, etc. Others were older, in attendance at the track, having seen not only Secretariat race, but many champions. You may like reading more of the posts in the Sec/AP thread. Included are some of the most well written compositions that have occurred here in a long time. People have tremendous passion for this sport, and have held it for decades. Its obvious.

kinda meant the 40's and older not the ones in the 70s

[Man o' War]

Originally Posted by RacingFan1992

I think it was more safe guarding rather than greed with the reason why they retired him at a young age. Penny was always worried about him breaking down because he was not like Riva Ridge who floated over the ground but rather he hammered the dirt. I think they were right for retiring him early.

Yeah you get a triple crown winner, you start being apprehensive...I laughed when I saw this quote from Baffert...

"I don't want to get ahead of myself," Baffert said. "I talked to Justin Zayat; they have their ideas, I have my ideas, but we're going to just sit down... and I have to see how this horse responds. Usually it takes about two weeks and you start seeing what kind of effect it's had on them.
"But if you see him show up, that means he's going to perform in a big way. I feel more pressure training him now. Now I feel like wrapping him in bubble wrap. But what I want to do is show him with everybody... I'm a trainer but at the same time I'm like a little kid, like a fan, when I see him. I look at him differently. I knew he was great, but he had to show us."

[Grits]

Originally Posted by nads1420

kinda meant the 40's and older not the ones in the 70s

All ages, here, are giving you ideas where American Pharoah will land, why would you think only someone in their 40s can answer your question? I don't know anyone here in their 70s. Still, if anyone is, I'm sure they've got knowledge to share.

I can promise you one thing, the day and hour, any of us believe we have nothing to learn from those that have come before us, or even those our own age, or younger? This is the day we'll look the dumbest.

As for age, an example of the knowledge and the writing that you may want to read, currently, is being provided by Reckless and ILovetheInner, along with, as always, the preeminent writer in this room--Thaskalos. I don't know the age of either of these gentlemen. Have no clue, nor do I care. Why would I want to limit my ability to learn?

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Man o' War

Yeah you get a triple crown winner, you start being apprehensive...I laughed when I saw this quote from Baffert...

"I don't want to get ahead of myself," Baffert said. "I talked to Justin Zayat; they have their ideas, I have my ideas, but we're going to just sit down... and I have to see how this horse responds. Usually it takes about two weeks and you start seeing what kind of effect it's had on them.
"But if you see him show up, that means he's going to perform in a big way. I feel more pressure training him now. Now I feel like wrapping him in bubble wrap. But what I want to do is show him with everybody... I'm a trainer but at the same time I'm like a little kid, like a fan, when I see him. I look at him differently. I knew he was great, but he had to show us."

To really see how special American Pharoah is, he's already shown us on the track that he's great, but I'm talking S.P.E.C.I.A.L. If you have a Facebook account, log in, and go to the Kentucky Derby FB page. On it, you'll find a new video of Baffert bringing AP out of the barn to meet Dr.William McGee, of Lexington, a 98 year old veterinarian who has taken care of other TC Champions. (A clinic is named after him there in Lex.) In this video, you can see how truly special this racehorse is. He has "other worldliness" about him, just as Secretariat. It's in his eyes. It's in his mind. And it is easily seen. He's incredible!!! His gentleness with humans is unheard of for a racehorse. He is SO intelligent.... I hope you can view it.

[ILovetheInner]

Originally Posted by Grits

To really see how special American Pharoah is, he's already shown us on the track that he's great, but I'm talking S.P.E.C.I.A.L. If you have a Facebook account, log in, and go to the Kentucky Derby FB page. On it, you'll find a new video of Baffert bringing AP out of the barn to meet Dr.William McGee, of Lexington, a 98 year old veterinarian who has taken care of other TC Champions. (A clinic is named after him there in Lex.) In this video, you can see how truly special this racehorse is. He has "other worldliness" about him, just as Secretariat. It's in his eyes. It's in his mind. And it is easily seen. He's incredible!!! His gentleness with humans is unheard of for a racehorse. He is SO intelligent.... I hope you can view it.

I have reschooled a number of OTTBs (and also one Standardbred, lol), and none of them handled as easily. AP seems uncommonly docile back at the barn from what I have seen. He's a very gentle, even thoughtful horse. Pretty amazing. Quite an ambassador

[reckless]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

1. Citation isn't even a personal favorite. i rate Spectacular Bid and Dr Fager much higher. he's just the best of the TC winners.

2. Secretariat never carried more than 126 pounds, and [B]was given a GIFT by the NYRA racing secretary in the Marlboro. He was deliberately kept out of races where he would have to carry real weight. And yes, the Marlboro was a good field, but most of his post TC races weren't.

Running at 4 is where horses are tested. You have to carry weight, beat open company, and prove you have longevity. Secretariat would have probably dropped a couple of races to Forego (or Dahlia) if he had run at 4. He had a greedy owner and people never got to see a full career.

Secretariat wasn't given a 'GIFT' by the racing secretary in the Marlboro Cup.

He was coming off a loss and he was assigned three less pounds than Riva Ridge. The younger horses always got a weight allowance when facing elders. Anyway, three... four... five more pounds would have made no difference whatsoever, imo. But judge that for yourself.

By even running in the race Secretariat gave a gift to NYRA and the Philip Morris Company that sponsored the race when he ran in the Marlboro Cup.

Why do I say this?

This race, with the then unprecedented purse of $250,000, was announced at Saratoga as a match race between Secretariat and Riva Ridge -- champion versus champion, Derby winner versus Derby winner, stablemate versus stablemate. Oh what a race; what an idea.

But guess what? The race just about fell apart within days/weeks of the announcement when both horses lost within three days of each other: Riva Ridge to 50-1 shot Wichita Oil and Secretariat to Onion.

NYRA was forced to squash the match race idea and make it an open Invitational. Plus, right up to the Marlboro Cup there was concern that he might not even make it for the race.

But he did make it and what a performance: a track record was set in the Marlboro that still stands -- 1:45.2. His 1:45.2 was after running 1:09.1 after six furlongs and 1:33.3 at a mile! That's going the final three-eighths in 36.1 seconds with his last eight-mile in a sensational 11.4 seconds.

Left behind were champions and hall of fame horses Riva Ridge and Cougar II. Also left in the dust were extremely capable runners Kennedy Road, Onion and Key to the Mint.

Now back to your supposition that Secretariat might have lost a few times if he had to face Forego or Dahlia as a 4YO. Maybe so, anything is possible, but again, very highly unlikely.

Dahlia raced 10 times as a 4YO, winning just five times. As a point of reference, she beat Big Spruce by a length in Canada. Secretariat twice faced Big Spruce and beat him a collective 19 lengths!

Forego raced 13 times at four and won eight races. Never once did Forego come real close to tying or setting track records in any of those wins. (He did tie a Aqueduct record in his last start at three.)

Forego did run in the undercard of both the Belmont Stakes and Marlboro Cup. I was there Marlboro Cup day and won a bet on Forego at 2-1. For some reason, they made a nondescript horse by the name of Cutlass the favorite. Forego went the 1 1-6 miles in a record 1:40.2 after going six furlongs in 1:10.1.

So, if you theoretically add 6.4 seconds to the 1:40.2 we get 1:47.1 for nine furlongs. I know, not exact but still not close enough to beat Secretariat that day, boys and girls, and that was one of Forego's faster races he ever ran.

[Man o' War]

Originally Posted by Grits

To really see how special American Pharoah is, he's already shown us on the track that he's great, but I'm talking S.P.E.C.I.A.L. If you have a Facebook account, log in, and go to the Kentucky Derby FB page. On it, you'll find a new video of Baffert bringing AP out of the barn to meet Dr.William McGee, of Lexington, a 98 year old veterinarian who has taken care of other TC Champions. (A clinic is named after him there in Lex.) In this video, you can see how truly special this racehorse is. He has "other worldliness" about him, just as Secretariat. It's in his eyes. It's in his mind. And it is easily seen. He's incredible!!! His gentleness with humans is unheard of for a racehorse. He is SO intelligent.... I hope you can view it.

Thanks for the info Grits. I do not have a Facebook account (old school guy here) but I think I’ll be able to at least see him in the barn area at Santa Anita when he gets here. My buddy (who works there) already promised me special access and he owes me anyway because his tips lose more than they win…
I do remember back in the day how Laz Barrera spoke about Affirmed being very intelligent and docile too…

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Man o' War

Thanks for the info Grits. I do not have a Facebook account (old school guy here) but I think I’ll be able to at least see him in the barn area at Santa Anita when he gets here. My buddy (who works there) already promised me special access and he owes me anyway because his tips lose more than they win…
I do remember back in the day how Laz Barrera spoke about Affirmed being very intelligent and docile too…

Man o' War, this is even better! Glad you'll get to spend time with him.

[Bullet Plane]

I used the book Champions by DRF and compiled the speed figures. I added the variant to the speed figure and ranked them in order:

1) Secretariat - 113 KD / 111 Pim /118 Bel total = 342
2) War Admiral - 104 KD/ 114 Pim / 107 Bel total = 325
3) Citation - 102 KD / 113 Pim / 107 Bel total = 322
4) Count Fleet - 99 KD/ 110 Pim / 109 Bel total = 318
5) Omaha - 95 KD / 114 Pim/ 106 Bel total = 315
6) Whirlaway - 110 KD / 101 Pim / 102 Bel total = 313
7) Affirmed - 103 KD / 110 Pim / 97 Bel = 310
8) American P - 102 KD / 99 Pim / 108 Bel = 309
9) Gallent Fox- 93 KD / 109 Pim / 104 Bel = 306
10) Sir Barton- 96 KD / 101 Pim / 107 Bel = 304
11) Seattle Slew 98 KD / 108 Pim / 89 Bel = 295
12) Assault - 96 KD/ 95 Pim / 97 Bel = 288

There are obviously some weakness with this kind of analysis, but at least you get some objective criteria.

My favorite? AP!

Why? He is the only one that I watched when I was a true racing fan.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by Bullet Plane

I used the book Champions by DRF and compiled the speed figures. I added the variant to the speed figure and ranked them in order:

1) Secretariat - 113 KD / 111 Pim /118 Bel total = 342
2) War Admiral - 104 KD/ 114 Pim / 107 Bel total = 325
3) Citation - 102 KD / 113 Pim / 107 Bel total = 322
4) Count Fleet - 99 KD/ 110 Pim / 109 Bel total = 318
5) Omaha - 95 KD / 114 Pim/ 106 Bel total = 315
6) Whirlaway - 110 KD / 101 Pim / 102 Bel total = 313
7) Affirmed - 103 KD / 110 Pim / 97 Bel = 310
8) American P - 102 KD / 99 Pim / 108 Bel = 309
9) Gallent Fox- 93 KD / 109 Pim / 104 Bel = 306
10) Sir Barton- 96 KD / 101 Pim / 107 Bel = 304
11) Seattle Slew 98 KD / 108 Pim / 89 Bel = 295
12) Assault - 96 KD/ 95 Pim / 97 Bel = 288

There are obviously some weakness with this kind of analysis, but at least you get some objective criteria.

My favorite? AP!

Why? He is the only one that I watched when I was a true racing fan.

I believe there is an error in your calculation. The SR+TV numbers of the earlier TC winners in the DRF book are based on the old methodology where sprints were not separated from routes and actual track records were used, not three-year-best times. Using the old technique, American Pharoah's numbers are:

Derby, 93
Preakness, 86
Belmont, 97
Total, 276

I know for sure the track record part is correct, but even if they did split out the sprints in those days the figures would be:

Derby, 92
Preakness, 96
Belmont, 97
Total, 285

[ILovetheInner]

Originally Posted by Man o' War

I do remember back in the day how Laz Barrera spoke about Affirmed being very intelligent and docile too…

Affirmed IMO was an extremely intelligent horse. He was very tractable. I thought and will always think he was more superior to Alydar than imagined, but didn't do more than he had to.

Fire is a funny thing. I think it is what will always put Man O'War (the horse, lol!) above Secretariat in my book. Fair Play sired very hot horses. There are some amazing accounts of another amazing Fair Play, Display, who was incredibly talented but a tremendous hot head. He was famous for delaying starts by a half hour. I read a tremendous account of him being visited at stud, where he was kept in a paddock behind planks he couldn't see past, muzzled and shackled. Can't fathom how great he might have been without such energy expended on the little stuff. I've got that old book somewhere in my collection, but the author's summary was one of awe and pity, feeling Display belonged out on the plains with no master, just fighting stallions and collecting a large harem. He wanted to war.

[Cicada]

1. Secretariat
2. Citation
Tie American Pharoah
Tie Seattle Slew
Tie Affirmed

I wasn't around for the others. I saw and read enough about Citation in the '50's to form an opinion (I was born in the 40's).

After Secretariat's Belmont win, I remember reading comments by knowledgeable observers who were still around who also saw Man o' War run and almost all of them put Man o' War at number 1. And almost all of them knocked Citation down to number 3.

Swaps is my personal all-time favorite. For those who like to rely on times, his times compare quite favorably to Secretariats'....and he did it on three legs.

[charm city whizz]

Originally Posted by reckless

Secretariat wasn't given a 'GIFT' by the racing secretary in the Marlboro Cup.

He was coming off a loss and he was assigned three less pounds than Riva Ridge. The younger horses always got a weight allowance when facing elders. Anyway, three... four... five more pounds would have made no difference whatsoever, imo. But judge that for yourself.

By even running in the race Secretariat gave a gift to NYRA and the Philip Morris Company that sponsored the race when he ran in the Marlboro Cup.

Why do I say this?

This race, with the then unprecedented purse of $250,000, was announced at Saratoga as a match race between Secretariat and Riva Ridge -- champion versus champion, Derby winner versus Derby winner, stablemate versus stablemate. Oh what a race; what an idea.

But guess what? The race just about fell apart within days/weeks of the announcement when both horses lost within three days of each other: Riva Ridge to 50-1 shot Wichita Oil and Secretariat to Onion.

NYRA was forced to squash the match race idea and make it an open Invitational. Plus, right up to the Marlboro Cup there was concern that he might not even make it for the race.

But he did make it and what a performance: a track record was set in the Marlboro that still stands -- 1:45.2. His 1:45.2 was after running 1:09.1 after six furlongs and 1:33.3 at a mile! That's going the final three-eighths in 36.1 seconds with his last eight-mile in a sensational 11.4 seconds.

Left behind were champions and hall of fame horses Riva Ridge and Cougar II. Also left in the dust were extremely capable runners Kennedy Road, Onion and Key to the Mint.

Now back to your supposition that Secretariat might have lost a few times if he had to face Forego or Dahlia as a 4YO. Maybe so, anything is possible, but again, very highly unlikely.

Dahlia raced 10 times as a 4YO, winning just five times. As a point of reference, she beat Big Spruce by a length in Canada. Secretariat twice faced Big Spruce and beat him a collective 19 lengths!

Forego raced 13 times at four and won eight races. Never once did Forego come real close to tying or setting track records in any of those wins. (He did tie a Aqueduct record in his last start at three.)

Forego did run in the undercard of both the Belmont Stakes and Marlboro Cup. I was there Marlboro Cup day and won a bet on Forego at 2-1. For some reason, they made a nondescript horse by the name of Cutlass the favorite. Forego went the 1 1-6 miles in a record 1:40.2 after going six furlongs in 1:10.1.

So, if you theoretically add 6.4 seconds to the 1:40.2 we get 1:47.1 for nine furlongs. I know, not exact but still not close enough to beat Secretariat that day, boys and girls, and that was one of Forego's faster races he ever ran.

That's an awesome post, heard stories over stories of forego from my father....ANY time there's talk of a big horse in size he always gets brought up, forego was a mythical figure growing up in my house